54 pointsby mooredsa day ago15 comments
  • johndoh429 hours ago
    Meanwhile the industry standard definition since the 80s:

    - Junior - someone who can work under guidance. - Regular - someone who can work alone. - Senior - someone who can guide others.

  • oh_my_goodness19 hours ago
    It's just a pay grade. Please folks stop trying to analyze "junior," "senior," and so forth. It's just something management told HR to write down.
    • WhyOhWhyQ19 hours ago
      When did this "junior/senior" lingo get cool? I don't remember it being used when I was young. Maybe the leet code trend brought on a sort of gamification of the profession, with ranks etc..?
      • raw_anon_111116 hours ago
        As a 51 year old, I hate when other old people think that “back in my day things were different”

        > Evans has held his present position with IBM since 1965. Previously, he had been a vice president of the Fed- eral Systems Division with the man- agement responsibility for developing large computing systems; the culmina- tion of this work was the IBM/System 360. He joined IBM in 1951 as a junior engineer and has held a variety of engineering and management posi- tions within the corporation

        Dated 1969

        https://bitsavers.org/magazines/Computer_Design/Computer_Des...

        Next meme that needs to die: “back in my day, developers did it for the love and not the money”

        • WhyOhWhyQ16 hours ago
          The title has always existed. I meant the obsession about being a "a junior" or "a senior", like gaining an achievement in a video game or something. I just thought every young person was a junior engineer and every old person was as senior engineer.
          • raw_anon_111116 hours ago
            You don’t get to be a senior engineer just because of tenure. It’s not gaming the system to expect a level to be based on the amount of responsibility and not just from getting 1 year of experience 10x.

            You want a promotion because you want more money. Even though I have found the difference to not be that great on the enterprise dev side. But in BigTech and adjacent, we are talking about multiple six figures differences as you move up.

            I work in consulting and our bill rate is based on our title/level of responsibility. It kills me that some non customer facing consultants want to have a “career track” that doesn’t involve leading projects and strategy and want to stay completely “hands on”.

            We can hire people cheaply from outside the country that can do that. There is an IC career track that is equal to a director (manager of managers). But you won’t get there hands on keyboard.

            • moondev14 hours ago
              The bigger the company the less impressive "senior" is. There are probably three levels of staff above it and then distinguished super fellow territory.
              • raw_anon_111112 hours ago
                A senior software engineer can easily make $300-400K+ at BigTech that’s “impressive” enough to me.

                On the other hand, a “senior” working at a bank or other large non tech company will probably be making less than $175K if you aren’t working on the west coast.

                For instance Delta

                https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries

            • WhyOhWhyQ16 hours ago
              I'm deleting my hn account. Have a good day.
    • raw_anon_111117 hours ago
      It’s way more than a “pay grade” for any company with real leveling guidelines.

      This jibes with both my personal experience at BigTech, knowing the industry and various publicly available leveling guidelines. Sone are more granular

      https://www.levels.fyi/blog/swe-level-framework.html

      https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/

      The company I work for now has similar leveling guidelines, it’s also more granular.

      But levels are defined by scope, impact, and dealing with ambiguity

      • oh_my_goodness3 hours ago
        Is pay grade. You can look this up.
        • raw_anon_1111an hour ago
          So are you really arguing that tech companies that pay top of the industry don’t require that you demonstrate that you can handle responsibility that requires you to be able to work at a larger scope, impact and dealing with ambiguity and go through a promotion process with a promo doc?

          Are you saying that when you interview for one of those tech companies that they don’t level you according to your past experience?

          Yes I know the answers to all of these questions from both personal experience of interviewing and hiring at one BigTech company and ignoring outreach from another’s hiring manager who I had worked with in the past.

          (At 51, I would rather get a daily anal probe with a cactus than ever work at a large company again and I am damn sure not going back into an office)

    • tayo4218 hours ago
      How I became a staff engineer with 3 yoe making 140k/year
  • bpev2 hours ago
    idk about titles, but my basic thought is that when you are less experienced, you're paid to do things, and when you are more experienced, you're paid to know things.
  • hoss147448920 hours ago
    I like this. I more generally look for reduces chaos.

    I’ve seen the pursuit of disambiguation employed to deadlock a project. Sometimes that’s the right thing to do—the project sponsor doesn’t know what they want. But many times the senior needs to document some assumptions and ship something rather than frustrating the calendars of 15 people trying to nail down some exact spec. Knowing whether to step on the brake or the gas for the benefit of the team and company is a key senior trait.

    This is a yes, and to the article; building without understanding the problem usually will increase chaos—though sometimes the least effort way through it is to build a prototype, and a senior would know when to do that and how to scope it.

  • onion2k20 hours ago
    A very important skill for Senior engineers not mentioned in the article is an ability to take the initiative on something. For example, when a dev sees a bug in an area of code they aren't responsible for and thinks "I'll raise an issue for that and mention it to the product manager so we can get it fixed" instead of "Oh, a bug", then they're starting to show that senior mindset. It's a desire to make the whole of the software good rather than just the little bit they work on good.
    • bdangubic18 hours ago
      I have literally never seen or thought of this as “senior” thing. if anyone on the team regardless of their seniority does not operate this way they will see a quick exit to some other place
  • rippeltippel10 hours ago
    Junior deals with "if" statements.

    Senior deals with "what-if" statements.

    <EoF>

  • terrillw21 hours ago
    Great article. The key things often missing in meetings discussing a vague problem is do we really understand the problem and how do we make concrete progress. Its a hard skill and often just comes through experience - being able to put yourself in the user's shoes to understand their problem, and knowing based on past experience, how to execute. That is the value of seniority.
  • andsbf21 hours ago
    Oh, so it isn’t about know to solve any leetcode?

    Good to hear it

  • jamietanna9 hours ago
    Related: Job Titles are Bullshit (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39511732
  • random1711 hours ago
    I think a lot of people in the comments are getting hung up on titles and missing the real point of the post. The headline probably didn’t help with that.

    The post actually does a great job of highlighting a genuinely valuable skill that the best engineers practice regardless of their title. In particular, “reducing ambiguity” is something I believe would be really beneficial for many early-career engineers to intentionally develop.

  • alexgotoi6 hours ago
    > this isn’t talent, but practice

    This. Totally agree. Seniority level it’s based on the volume of practice someone has. Period.

  • Razengan13 hours ago
    When someone calls you senpai
  • z3ratul16307112 hours ago
    age
  • moralestapiaa day ago
    This sounds cool but reality is much more boring than that. If your work title says "Senior" then you're Senior.
    • onion2k20 hours ago
      Based on a number of people I've worked with whose job title was Senior Engineer, it isn't that.
    • ursAxZA20 hours ago
      Sometimes that’s true. Sometimes it isn’t. This seems to be a discussion about the latter.
    • raw_anon_111121 hours ago
      Until you get to a behavioral interview at your n+1 job…
      • moralestapia21 hours ago
        What's that supposed to mean?
        • raw_anon_111120 hours ago
          These are typical questions I ask when I’m interviewing a senior developer:

          “Tell me about a project you’re most proud of?” Then I’m going to start asking questions about your decision making process, how you dealt with complexity and ambiguity, etc.

          If all you did was pull well defined tickets off the Jira board, you’re not going to be able to answer that question well and you aren’t the type of person I’m going to delegate a very ambiguous assignment where you have to make good architectural and organizational decisions and have to deal with “the business” to disambiguate.

          The next question would be “Looking at your resume, I see you have $x years of experience, if you could go back to one of your earlier projects, what choices would you have made differently knowing what you know now?”

          If you haven’t led any major initiative, what are you going to say? “I would have pulled more tickets off the board?”

          I interviewed someone from AWS at my last job, he thought he was a shoo in especially after he looked on LinkedIn and saw that I was from AWS. I guess he thought he was going to be reversing a binary tree.

          No matter what I asked, he couldn’t describe anything he had done of note except be on a team who did stuff. I asked him had he led any features, presented any “six pagers” internally, blog posts on the AWS site, presentations - he had done nothing.

          I passed over him for a guy at an unknown company who could talk about where he “took ownership”. That’s one of the Amazon BS Leadership Principals.

          Hell I had a public footprint at AWS after only 3.5 years I had been there as a mid level L5 employee.

  • paulcole13 hours ago
    Bro thinks this is unique to engineers.