To combat corruption these countries need to educate their population of its effects plus hefty penalties, including capital punishment, to get it under control. The higher up the tree the more severe the punishment should be. Politicians and senior civil servants should always be put to death since their corruption has the greatest impact.
Which is why these countries are so much more prosperous when outsiders rule them, supressing the clan systems for anything more meritocratic.
That's generally not how colonization worked. Quite often, colonization intentionally created the large scale tribal identities. Allegiance to clans grows because of deep suspicion of extractive governments put in place by outsiders.
Which almost makes China's mercantilist foothold on the continent seem like an improvement.
There is nothing inherently unique to African culture that means Africans need western saviors to understand why their primitive clannish ways are holding them back. The same social unit is native to all human culture.
The problem is that the rest of the world wants African natural resources and a weak, distributed African power structure is good for that.
The locals were only used for manual labour and filling out conscript armies (overseen by coloniser officers). This creates societies where, for generations, none of the natives have any experience with doing any of the jobs necessary to actually govern a country.
In the 1900s this was communism. A lot of people (either disingenuously or not) interpreted this as anti-democratic. But if you look at what actually happened where conditions were right, it turned out to work well- China and Vietnam, and if you just look at authoritarianism, not just communist authoritarianism, then Singapore, S. Korea, Taiwan as well. Some would also argue that the USA falls into this category- that the same arm of the government suppressing corruption is also going after marginalized groups.
There aren't that many examples in history where the ideal balance is actually struck.
A country with high levels of corruption cannot be trusted to fairly carry out capital punishment.
> To combat corruption these countries need to educate their population of its effects plus hefty penalties, including capital punishment, to get it under control. The higher up the tree the more severe the punishment should be. Politicians and senior civil servants should always be put to death since their corruption has the greatest impact.
Giving the government the power to exert these punishments will only give the corrupt officials the power to legally do this to their enemies.
There is no hope for these countries.
I disagree with this. The core culprit is that most people in Africa depend on the government, most are employed by it. So effectively the government is just taxing itself with no new money coming in. The solution is a revolution in SMEs, the entrepreneurial spirit and a large private sector. Basically more decentralization.
Only menial businesses like supermarkets exist in those countries (people have to eat no matter how corrupt a country is).
As soon as an entrepreneur becomes successful and makes healthy profits they'll get raided by leeches. Usually they'll have to pay government officials for "protection" and politicians demand that their family members become part of the Board or management enabling them to pilfer the company's wealth even further.
Just curious. What nations are you talking about when you say that "most people in Africa depend on the government"?
Only asking because this has not been my experience at all!
In fact I would say that most people in every nation I visited was dependent on themselves, their family and whatever support they could get from their larger clan. Poverty was rampant. Most of the middle class had clawed their way to that height through creating some kind of business. The degree to which these economies were dependent on remittances was alarming in my uneducated view. I would say far less than .5% of the people I interacted with had a government paycheck or even a government benefit coming in.
That said, I've never been to the wealthier nations like South Africa or Morocco or what have you. Maybe it's different in those places?
Namibia is relatively wealthy.
I've never been to Namibia. (Never been to any SADC nations actually). But I can assure you, other nations don't work like Namibia. In a lot of other African nations, government can be the largest employer and still provide jobs for less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the people. The rest of the people will be completely on their own. These people scratch and struggle for whatever they can get. It's not at all like Namibia from what you're saying.
Corruption isn't even fought by educating the masses, it just happens that at a given time, the country gets a less selfish leader who decides enough is enough and jails the culprits. This is how countries like Korea, Singapore did it
Isaac Bacirongo's autobiography, Still a Pygmy, has plenty of interesting comments on this topic. The main business theme seems to be that in Africa it's not really possible to extend (or receive) credit - if someone says they'll pay you later, they won't, and if you were foolish enough to believe them you're going to take a loss.
Corruption was a smaller concern.
That being said finding a benevolent dictator is easier said than done. I can’t really think of anyone that has fit that bill over the last 75 years in Africa, the closest might be Paul Kagame in Rwanda.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A lot of people who didn't know how corruption works in practice are getting a crash-course with the second Trump administration: in what order should your recommendations be applied to the Trump admin, and who's going to do it, seeing the DOJ is part of the executive branch and is partisan?
In Africa, the winner of elections is usually known up front because they’re not real. One clan/party rules until another one stages a successful bloody coup, and repeat on a 1/5/10/20 year cycle depending on the country.
1. One of Jimmy Carter's autobiography mentions how corrupt Georgia's elections were/are
2. Jeb Bush stole the election for his brother
3. America has a long history of disenfranchisement
And the impacts of corruption/cronyism/clientelism are not just money being siphoned at the top. It completely breaks any fair competition wether it's in economic markets or for jobs. Businesses don't succeed based on how competitive or innovative they are, simply based on who their founder knows and how much they're willing to pay in bribes, so your economic development stragnates. Important and influential positions are awarded not to the most competent but to the richest. Opening a small business requires you to bribe dozens of people, and good luck if you need to import or export goods.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-Hewn_Churches,_Lalibela
??? This comment was dead the second I posted it, how/why is that? Oh, visible again now, fair enough.
Maybe I should have included some context: these are a couple of Ethiopian cultural things that I think are neat. Uh, that's about it, really.
Given (enough) time, it’ll also happen to the ones at the peak now.
Also, Aksum probably overlaps much more with Eritrea than with Ethiopia. Aksum was also mostly surrounded by desert, mountains, at least one volcano, and the sea, and its territory tended to be close to the sea, also for trade. Surprisingly isolated from the rest of Africa south of the Sahara.
Edited, to tclancy:
Rude.
But also, I made this comment before your comment, check the timestamps.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49945710
And it mentions ancient Chinese and Meso-American civilizations.
AFAIU, Greeks were there, but as traders who came because it was a prosperous kingdom. For the same reason other groups from around that region also had a presence, and vice-versa. Prosperous nations tend to exchange populations and build economic, cultural, and political ties.
But if you're implying the presence of Greeks or an adoption of Greek culture was the reason for the rise of the Aksum empire... I'd certainly like to read those sources.
The very early adoption of Christianity might have had something to do with it, at least in terms of creating a unifying identity within and among the broader region. But Greeks weren't the only Christians. Ethiopia already had ties to non-Greek Levante and non-Greek Arabian peninsula communities, and probably Persian traders, as well--Persians were the Greeks of the Indian Ocean. Not coincidentally, the Horn of Africa sits at the nexus of multiple major economic spheres and sea routes. The Aksum Empire originated in the highlands, but for much of their time they controlled or had a strong presence along the coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endybis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_currency
> The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea mentions that the Aksumite state imported brass (Ancient Greek: ὀρείχαλκος, oreíkhalkos), "which they use[d] for ornaments and for cutting as money", and they imported "a little money (denarion) for [use by] foreigners who live there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Aksum
> Aksum also had a sizeable Greek population, which resided in the cities of Ptolemais Theron and Adulis.[52]
I’ll skip pointing out much of what you know about ancient scholars may be due to Arabic countries keeping them alive during the Dark Ages.
> Lots of countries — including Egypt (the Nile/wider Red Sea supremacy), Eritrea (Ethiopia’s desire for access to the sea), Sudan (Ethiopian support for the RSF), Somalia (historical enmity/Ethiopian support for Somaliland), and Saudi Arabia (as benefactor of Egypt/Sudan/Eritrea axis) — have good reasons to keep Addis Ababa weak and preoccupied with unending domestic wars. These dynamics, coupled with the geography of war in Ethiopia mean that Addis Ababa will struggle to keep arms and fighters from easily moving across its borders with Sudan and Eritrea.
> On its part, the Ethiopian state will likely continue to enjoy support from the United Arab Emirates; and maintain the capacity to produce the weapons needed to keep rebels at bay. Ominously, divisions among elites in Tigray and other regions mean that the rebellion may not clear the threshold needed to incentivize a quick resolution either militarily or at the negotiating table. Therefore, slow-burning, but still catastrophically deadly conflicts may be on the cards.
> …
> Notably, a prolonged conflict will likely also be significantly civilianized. Careful to avoid being overstretched, the Ethiopian state may decide to deputize regional militias and other violence entrepreneurs in its fights against subnational armed groups. To this end, it will lean heavily on divisions across armed groups and within the regional states that have witnessed rebellions.
Part of a unifying the nation will be convincing these players that they will do better with a peaceful, stable Ethiopia.
In name only. But they are actors.
The anti-intellectual movement of the last quarter century is such a perversion of values that I have trouble recognizing the world today. It's a slap in the face to everything that I believe in, and what society used to value when I was growing up in the 1980s and 90s.
Reductionism has consumed tech and the scientific community. Because the wrong people won the internet lottery and promoted their brand of anti-intellectualism to the world, gaining esteem from sycophants hoping to ride their coattails and get rich too.
Now those same billionaires actively work to dismantle the institutions which were once heralded as bastions of democracy. Is it any wonder that peace is crumbling as they conspire to hoard the world's remaining resources? Doubling down on colonization, stealing them from developing nations that we've already victimized, without their consent?
Witnessing Elon Musk become a trillionaire at the same moment that a child somewhere died of dehydration was one of the grossest experiences of my life. We're talking Elysium, District 9, but real. Yet Greta Thunberg is mocked for her activism.
Instead of learning from history and doing better, we're papering over our colonizer past and doubling down on our malfeasance.
What a sick joke the future has become.
Musk becoming a trillionaire because people value the shares of his ventures for stupid amounts doesn't actually make the poor poorer. If anything things like starlink help connect the more distant places.
The war between Eritrea is Ethiopia is especially stupid. The main issue is access to the ocean/water which Ethiopia wants. Since it is the bigger country, it wants to bully its way through. Eritrea has only about 6 million people; Ethiopia has almost 140 million people. IMO there should be a diplomatic solution. Give Ethiopia access while not giving up land, negotiate payments (should be reasonable for both sides), invest into the corridor for both sides to profit. To me it seems as if Ethiopia has committed to the decision to wage war though. It's similar to Putin in that he committed to both genocide and expansion of land. Though Eritrea is really very small compared to Ethiopia; I don't see them being able to offset Ethiopia.
I mean pretty much everyone, today, (Nigeria, Ethiopia, Kenya, Rwanda, South sudan, etc etc), has settled on Kenya being the answer to all those questions. No one wants to access the sea in the Eritrea direction anymore since everything going on in Kenya is making Kenyan coastal access such a no-brainer. (And all of that was even before the Iran war showed that making your shipping dependent on the Eritrea route, and mideast chokepoints in general, is just, I mean, I'll be diplomatic and call it "ill-considered"). Now, with the newest attachments being considered for the LAPSSET corridor, going through Eritrea is just insanity by comparison.
So even without the geography problem, there is still war is my point. Now, of course, you could argue it's still a geography problem since the proxy-masters are mostly concerned about getting rid of the dam long term. But that's another issue is all I'm saying.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49905487
Meanwhile, the Tigray war in Ethiopia may have killed as many as 600k, yet it barely registered in our public conversation. The same goes for Sudan.
Attention is a weird beast.
Not nice, but somewhat rational? Inflation where you live affects you directly. A massacre somewhere far away usually not so much.
(But yes, all is connected, people fleeing the wars, then bringing their traumatas with them, etc)
I think the problem is that modern brain is overloaded with information. We can't care about everything fully, or we'd go insane.
Europe started rapid remilitarization as a direct response to the war. The increase in military spending in European countries not participating in the war is comparable to worldwide investments in AI data centers and infrastructure.
Then there is the fact that a permanent member of the UN Security Council is waging an old-school war of conquest. If we assume that the post-WW2 world order is gone and wars of conquest are legitimate business again, the world will reassess other aspects of that order as well. Including the idea that people have inherent rights beyond those their government is willing to grant and capable of protecting.
Germany as an extreme example has the survival of Israel as state doctrin. So that is a hot topic by definition.
Then there are many jews living in the west who sends weapons en masse to Israel - and there are also many Palestinian/Arabs living in the west. All that directly effects us.
Ethopia on the other hand is one of few african countries that was not (really) colonized. So there are not so much ties. The strongest is probably reggae and Haile Selassi chanting in songs, but most have no idea who that was. So, people are less interested naturally.
Individuals in the west can't buy and send weapons to other countries.
why do we (residents of western countries) pay attention to Israel? There's nothing relevant to our lives happening there. It's not more relevant than Ethiopia or Sudan.
The concept that Israel relies on foreign weapons for its survival is detached from reality. Yes, there are things you can't replace like F35 and submarines, but in drones, missiles, air defence, radars, armored vehicles, communication systems etc - Israel is amongst the worldwide leaders.
> has the power of the Jewish diaspora, is majority Jewish
Curious what you mean by this since we're told over and over that Israel doesn't represent all Jews? Regardless, it's a tiny country with almost no natural resources that has rapidly accelerating mass opposition. Israel cannot defeat the entire planet.
Relax, Israel is not going anywhere :) Yes there is a growing anti-Israeli sentiment, but that will go away with time. The strategic gains Israel has made over the past 3 years, though, may hold.
It's a pressing and important issue, which is why it's getting a lot of attention.
And then… well.
Attention is indeed weird.
So there isn't one likely to draw global powers to my neighborhood to pit one group of people against another.
/s
Let's be honest man, there's just little chance at all that this issue affects your average San Fran tech guy. Let's not try to shame people because they don't pay attention to those kinds of issues. If you want people to know something about the issue, put it in your comment.
Educate.
The absolute meltdown post-COVID where we traded moderate inflation in exchange for not having the economy basically seize up was, for most people on HN, an inconvenience.
I agree that higher level of inflation might be brutal.
"But won't they be evicted?" Is a question that has several answers, but none of which you expect
First worlders perception of how to deal with 3rd world problems are interesting
If there are no white people to blame on either side of the war, nobody cares. It's the same shit with so many conflicts.
Correction: The mass media serving a select few interests is a weird beast.
..well not really weird if you recognize it that way :)
Imagine the shit we're gonna see in 2100 caused from that..
But then that too could be arguably traced back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
People bully Japan for "not apologizing" for their crimes in WW2 and earlier, even though none of the people from back then are still alive. Has Europe ever "apologized" for the Opium Wars or anything really?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. "
And the comment really had nothing to do with the article. Just a opinion shouted in to the room without backing up besides mentioning "random yt videos" as the source.
Cause while it is of course entirely possible that this really did occur to you fully independently over the years, it requires quite a bit of suspended disbelief to entertain, given how prominently this has been trending recently within certain political "fringes".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvYRifKrS24 — The World's Most Ignored War Explained - Johnny Harris (first and only video I watched from that guy, seems neutral?)
And not just Africa; I've been traveling around Asia recently, and whenever I think about catching up on any particular country, like 8 or 9 out of 10 times, guess what?
Yep. Europeans :)
At least, that was my understanding of the comment that I replied to. Normally I wouldn't say "Did you even read the article" when responding to a thought or opinion
But I think, the article does have the potential for a interesting debate, though.
Sure Italy certainly wanted to colonize Ethiopia, but they were driven out with the help of the British before they could.
There’s broad acceptance that Ethiopia is an uncolonized country.
Come on.
That is European colonization, possibly the most effective form.
Eventually, we get a Europe united under Christianity, but I wouldn't call that fully developed until the end of the Viking age.
And they would be correct. Most people never "chose" their beliefs. It was systematically embedded by people who have had power over them.
People have agency.
And that’s before unraveling whatever the OP of this comment chain meant by Muslims and Christians are only fighting because of colonizers when Islam and Christianity were colonial ideologies in the first place with there emphasis on converting all of humanity.
At this point, it is indeed still a choice, but hardly a daily or conscious choice.
Renouncing/converting exists but is rare, life changing, and sometimes dangerous.
Edit: rather oddly I just posted an innocuous comment (a couple of Wikipedia links) and it was immediately dead on arrival. What's going on there? Wild auto-modding.
I, personally, don't mind political content. I find it interesting. That said, I'm not going to get on fellow HN'ers when they downvote or flag it. That, in and of itself, would be a political act rooted in sensitivities.
If you have reasons, in particular, that posts or comments should not be flagged, I'd personally encourage you to outline them. Then let the chips fall where they may. Getting emotional only decreases the overall quality of the conversation. And, presumably, outlining your own ideas would get whatever viewpoint it is that you wish to push, into the thread.
Chinese can't fight themselves. So I'm pretty sure everyone is in on this one.
One side wants the dam gone.
The other wants the dam generating electricity.
Will be fascinating to see which group of puppet masters wins. It'll tell us a lot about how the global power hierarchies are shaping up in the twenty-first century.
I do feel horrible for the innocent people of Ethiopia, who only wanted lights so their kids could study at night. Instead, they'll get killed. That's what sucks about the activity of global powers in Africa for the past, what? 500 years? Probably longer.