115 pointsby cianmm3 hours ago13 comments
  • xyzelement2 hours ago
    I have a distinctive memory about Theranos from business school - so circa 2013 a few years before it blew up.

    Some professor was going on and on about Holmes for being a young, female, founder. It stood out at the moment as weird because the praise was separate from success or outcomes or like brilliant science. It was all about the identity: gender and age.

    I wonder if the reason the scam went so far as it did because it was "shaped" exactly like what people were looking for, like what they were told the future of STEM was supposed to look like.

    • glimshe2 hours ago
      It sure did. And it backfired in a way that could make future female innovators guilty by association. I can see investors asking themselves "That girl looks sharp, but is she another Elizabeth Holmes?"
      • FranzFerdiNaN2 hours ago
        Plenty of male-led businesses also turned out to be scams, and yet no one goes 'that guy looks sharp, but he is male so seems suspicious'. Which only proofs how deep sexism is rooted.
        • OroPla44 minutes ago
          It's just pattern recognition at work. None of the male-led scams have "being male" as a talking point trying to sell the scam, so it's about as notable as a scam founder wearing black shoes.

          But now "female led" has entered the conversation as something to recognize a scam by. Whenever it comes up again this memory will lit up and make people wary.

          • catchnear432111 minutes ago
            The patterns did not form themselves.

            It’s rarely “just pattern recognition at work.”

        • xyzelementan hour ago
          The point is that anything subject to hype is also at a greater risk of being a scam.

          If we were desperate for red-headed founders then the risk of any given red-head riding the wave of hype rather than substance is higher than at baseline.

          That's the point being made. Your comment about male led misses it because there's currently no hype about male led. Though I can see it coming back.

          • manphone16 minutes ago
            That’s only true in the public Zeitgeist, there is a huge preference among portions of the workforce for male leadership stated or unstated. This is not a good thing. I literally worked with a guy who was about to quit because a woman would boss him around and she was about 10,000 times as qualified as he was
            • Mainan_Tagonist4 minutes ago
              then again, how good a manager would she have made if she was bossing around colleagues to the point of them quitting?

              Management is not just about qualification, it's also about the human aspect.

              I have seen enough toxic femineity at work to say it is actually a thing, on par with toxic masculinity.

        • philipallstaran hour ago
          > Which only proofs how deep sexism is rooted.

          Only if you're determined to look for it.

          No one promotes companies, or gives special grants, or runs special funding groups, or special networking breakfasts, for men. It's only for women. Women are currently viewed as intrinsically a good thing to run a company, and it's a problem if your company has fewer than 50% women. It's all about identity and not competence. She rode that wave.

          Men ride other waves, but specifically not that one. Unless you count trans women in sports. Or Tim Walz.

          • Grombobulous32 minutes ago
            I regret engaging, comment removed.
            • philipallstar24 minutes ago
              EDIT: luckily I quoted the things I was replying to, because the above poster drastically edited his/her post, just resorting finally to namecalling.

              > Even this “trans women in sports” issue you brought up for no reason is deeply rooted misogyny in action. As soon as someone becomes a woman they are a second-class citizen.

              Claiming this does not make it so. I said nothing misogynistic. You can't just claim this any more and expect people to believe you, because who would lie about a thing like that? People now know that someone such as yourself would definitely lie, and so they will check for themselves. You need evidence.

              > Case in point: there has been zero outrage about trans men. If you looked at a trans man you’d never suggest that a person who looks like this [1] should compete in women’s sports. You’d probably never even realize they were trans unless you were specifically told.

              That's because a lot of the aim of society is to protect women, in various ways. So men who claim to be women who can beat women in women-only sports competitions, or can go in their changing rooms or bathrooms means women are not being afforded the protections we have tried to give them. That's why we have different bathrooms, changing rooms, and sports contests in the first place. No one cares about a woman entering a men's sporting contest, because a) she'll never get anywhere and b) if she did, it would be men losing out, which very few people would care about.

              > Just so you are factually and scientifically informed, when trans women transition, they are taking hormone replacement therapy that blocks testosterone. It tends to make them significantly worse at sports as a result.

              No, you are misinforming here. They don't have to do anything. "Self ID" exists. That's why a male rapist claiming to be a woman got put in a woman's prison in Scotland[0]. Also, for those who do take hormones, hormones don't help with lung capacity, size, Q angle, bone density, and all the many other things that make men better at sport.

              [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_Bryson_case

              • Grombobulous10 minutes ago
                I suggest you edit down your comment as well, it’s better for both of us and the readers of this site to just remove this thread. We’re not going to agree, this issue is not related to the article, and it’s only going to lead to further unproductive discussion.

                I can be the one to eat my hat and say that I shouldn’t have taken the discussion further in this direction.

              • 20 minutes ago
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        • mvdwoordan hour ago
          No one markets ‘male founder’ as a reason to trust the business. Once gender is framed as a virtue, people start asking whether that claim actually means anything.
          • Applejinx31 minutes ago
            The government does! At least right now in the United States. And yeah, I think it's reasonable for people to start asking.
        • c7b14 minutes ago
          'That guy's looks sharp, but he gives me SBF vibes' is a totally plausible line. Or Martin Shkreli, Trevor Milton, or a host of others. As you said, there is no shortage of ill-fated male entrepreneurs to compare upcomers to, even restricting the pool to those who ended up getting convicted for their misdeeds (or receiving presidential pardon afterwards).
        • JuniperMesosan hour ago
          No one thinks that the number of males participating in business is too low, and that it is socially-beneficial and morally-important to promote male-run businesses.
        • Eddy_Viscosity2an hour ago
          Scamming as a male can actually improve your reputation. Donald Trump is currently the president of the united states despite years of ripping people off. If Bernie Madoff could run as a republican senator, I'd given him decent odds to win.
          • philipallstar36 minutes ago
            > If Bernie Madoff could run as a republican senator, I'd given him decent odds to win.

            And yet somehow he - a man - is in jail. A jail built by men, condemned by a justice system designed by men to lock bad men up.

            • Aaargh2031815 minutes ago
              Because Madoff scammed rich people. You can get away with a lot if you scam the poor. Not so much when you target the wealthy.
              • philipallstar10 minutes ago
                That makes no sense within the topic of conversation.
        • Hilliard_Ohiooo3 minutes ago
          [dead]
        • micromacrofootan hour ago
          I inherently don't trust old white guys so i'm not sure that's true
          • tmtvlan hour ago
            Thing is, SBF, Tate, and Paul aren't old (well, depends on your frame of reference I suppose); so even discriminating on age wouldn't help you much.
          • theopsimist41 minutes ago
            You a vc?
    • analog8374an hour ago
      It's like reading the title of the post and skipping reading the actual post. She embodied a popular identity, offered a popularly STEMmy business plan, and the rest was skipped.

      Word to wise entrepreneurs.

  • jiaosdjf2 hours ago
    I watched the entire trailer fully believing that Nathan Fielder had managed to find the most unhinged uncanny look-alike actress to play Elizabeth Holmes.

    This trailer was so good that I would have been fully prepared to watch a 2 hour dramatised mockumentary about Theranos.

    Finding out that this was really Elizabeth Holmes was a huge shock

    • bizzleDawg2 minutes ago
      After the complete mind melting of 2 seasons of "the rehearsal", this was my exact path too
    • sschueller2 hours ago
      Yet people who met her were stupid enough to think she is some kind of genius and gave her millions of dollars.

      Sometimes I think if Charles Manson started a startup instead of killing people he would have had millions in investments and be praised as some sort of wunder kind...

      • covercashan hour ago
        Or Charles Manson could weasel his way into existing startups, claim them as his own, become the richest man in the world, AND kill so many more people than he ever thought possible!
      • aa-jvan hour ago
        >were stupid enough to think she is some kind of genius and gave her millions of dollars.

        The tech industry is rife with such suckers. We wouldn't have the wealth we have without them.

        • OroPla41 minutes ago
          Who was it again that said money is thrown out the window without any concern, you just have to stand below the right window? It was true then and it is true now. Really helps if the money you are throwing out isn't your own, too.
      • jiaosdjf22 minutes ago
        All founders and CEOs are like this, to the point that when I meet a person in leadership who clearly isn't a sociopath my default reaction is to assume that they're not successful.

        The only reason I'm somewhat confident that I am not a sociopath is because I am still frequently presented business ideas that make me think "WTF how did you even think of that and why am I so angry that it's probably going to work"

    • dwrobertsan hour ago
      Although I’m fully expecting actor shenanigans in the full documentary, I think the section in the trailer might actually be her for real
    • sevenseacat2 hours ago
      wait, it was actually her? I thought it was also some uncanny valley magic
  • seabombs3 hours ago
    Love everything Nathan Fielder does. The trailer is awesome.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJSRFWALTI

    • embedding-shapean hour ago
      What an incredible trailer. So simple but so communicative and almost gave me goosebumps, very well made.

      Seeing her like that gave me flashbacks to Mark Zuckerberg before he seemingly trained away that empty stare he and others share.

    • drcongo2 hours ago
      It's like a horror movie trailer, only scarier.
  • mark_l_watson9 minutes ago
    I watched a 90 second clip from this film earlier today: Holmes unblinking asking ‘Why would I deceive you…’ Really strange stuff. I have to admit that I watched the clip a second time.
  • ddmf2 hours ago
    There was some major tension in the trailer - I can't believe that's actually Elizabeth Holmes, but seeing her I can see how she managed to win over so many - she is very intense.
  • nl2 hours ago
    > But the more Holmes talks to Fielder, the more he teases out her unhinged rationale, which is: The device works fine! We just had to figure out that pesky chemistry stuff! The strange thing is that Holmes has such a corporate mindset that she treats the chemistry stuff…that hadn’t been invented yet…as just another glitchy small problem that could easily be solved

    The difference between science and engineering right there...

    • s_dev2 hours ago
      You mean marketing and engineering.
    • dragochat2 hours ago
      she'd be the perfect CEO of a BigAI corpo - as opposed to betting on humans randomly discovering new chemistry in predictable ammount of time, betting on neural networks offering a brute-force way to (super)human congnition is actualy "saner" - I mean, we know from _evolution_ that in a universe with out _physics_ brute forcing the problem of building intelligence with neural-network like architecture "very likely works"...

      now this thought just made me have more sympathy for Sam Altman (there can actually be much worse ppl out there...)

      • epihelix16 minutes ago
        I don't want to necessarily claim that Altman is worse than Holmes, but I don't think the rank order is entirely clear either.

        An AI CEO was absolutely Holmes' calling. You can only imagine.

      • owebmaster2 hours ago
        If Sam Altman was actually named Elizabeth Altman the OpenAI CEO would be in jail.
        • derektankan hour ago
          People seem to forget that Sunny Balwani also went to prison over the Theranos fraud.
        • rcxdudean hour ago
          There are many issues with OpenAI but the two situations are pretty significantly different.
        • dragochat2 hours ago
          was about to reply, but... this has more layers than a (rotten) onion - I'll just restrain myself form doing so :P
    • jiaosdjf17 minutes ago
      And yet somehow what she did still isn't as bad as what every private equity form on Wall Street gets away with daily.

      There's no excuse for defrauding investors, but at least the "aim" was to produce a product that, if it actually had worked, would have been medically revolutionary. I don't even believe that she went in on scam from the start, she must have at least genuinely believed, no matter how nonchalant, that there was going to be a product - otherwise how would she possibly expect to get away with it?

      Blackrock, Citadel, KKR etc - all they do is buy up actual businesses that provide actual products and services, by using the most predatory and immoral "leveraged buyout" technique and then stripping its assets and leasing them back like some demented parasitic worm

    • rcxdudean hour ago
      How so? In my experience academics are far more likely to sweep big practical issues under the rug because they're primarily concerned with being something working one so they can write a paper, as opposed to making a product that has to work in practice.

      (It is surprisingly common to have delusions about the scale of engineering problems in management, which causes problems even when it doesn't explode into outright fraud. I've had management insist on pursuing a project that was already quite risky and difficult in its own right but which also needed a technology that just didn't exist yet to actually be usable by customers in the field: mostly on the back of some theoretical calculations by some acadamics that masked big underlying problems. The issue was pretty obvious but just subtle enough to be easy to convince yourself it wasn't that hard)

  • qsera16 minutes ago
    After this, there was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_Perry of UBeam
  • qoezan hour ago
    "That’s part of its appeal — it’s a one-of-a-kind reality-TV-as-hangout-movie psychodrama circus"

    This is fable level unreadable to me

    • moffkalastan hour ago
      At least it's not opus level unreadable amirite?
  • saimiam3 hours ago
    Who’s “Bobby” mentioned in the article? Did the writer just mix up Billy Evans with Bobby?
    • petesergeant2 hours ago
      It does seem that way, half-way through they switch from "Billy" to "Bobby"
    • Citizen_Lame2 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • elgertam19 minutes ago
    Holmes seems to have the Harvard Business (MBA) mindset: science, R&D, engineering are just results to squeeze out of recalcitrant practitioners. Any failure in those domains is evidence only of the scientists' or engineers' refusal to align themselves with the Vision.

    Despite not even finishing undergrad, she adopted this persona so naturally, including the black turtleneck and a Zuck-esque vocal inflection, that due diligence apparently defenestrated itself. Phyllis Gardner is the unsung hero who tried to warn the world, but the MBA mass-delusion was too strong.

  • sim04ful3 minutes ago
    This looks like another homerun for a24
  • iammjman hour ago
    Wow that is a one scary intense trailer. Hard to believe we are not witnessing some kind of serious psychopathology right there
  • DarmokTanagra39 minutes ago
    [dead]