99 pointsby ndsipa_pomu5 hours ago22 comments
  • tyleo5 hours ago
    I don’t know much about this except that I know perfectly normal or even jacked men with lower than expected testosterone. I suspect messing with hormones based on the results of a test and no actual problems can unnecessarily alter mood.

    So my theory—based mostly on conjecture—is that these tests selected people they didn’t expect and the treatments would do more harm than good.

    • noir_lord5 hours ago
      I think it's simpler than that, I think Hanlon's Razor applies here.

      Not sure there has been a less capable Secretary of Defence in my lifetime than who they currently have in the role.

      Note: not saying less objectionable, I'd put Rumsfeld right alongside for that but as much as I didn't like the man, it was hard to argue he was incapable.

      • Jgrubb5 hours ago
        Rumsfeld put in the work and was very smart. His natural disposition was such that, when given the ring of power, things went badly.

        The current head of DoD is basically a manosphere influencer that bumbled into this job.

        Now, I'm not an endocrinologist, just an aging guy, but from my current vantage point it appears that over the course of my life, many stupid decisions have been made that I have lived to tell about. I can't help but feel that my "wisdom of age" might just be testosterone getting out of the way.

        This is all to say that our current "situation" just kinda looks like one insecure guys roid rage when you take a big step back.

        • lokar5 hours ago
          Trump was pretty clear he chose him because he looked good in TV.
          • dylan6044 hours ago
            The entire cabinet and appointed administration positions is full of the closest to Idiocracy level people.
            • gcanyon3 hours ago
              It's just an oversight that they haven't started manufacturing Brawndo, the Thirst Mutilator.
          • ceejayoz4 hours ago
            And keeps him because he's good at the number one priority, being a fluffer.
          • budman14 hours ago
            plus, he could hold his liquor.

            and does not take no for an answer.

            • K0balt4 hours ago
              Also, does not say no to an order
            • tclancy4 hours ago
              Eh, I’d say more he hadn’t been fired for being drunk. Part of the trick to being a success as a functional alcoholic is being a white guy.

              Please don’t ask how I know.

        • 3 hours ago
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      • InsideOutSanta4 hours ago
        It still irks me that people mocked Rumsfeld's explanation of unknown unknowns. The guy was probably a terrible excuse for a human being, but he wasn't stupid, and that quote was a pretty good explanation for why we shouldn't be overconfident in our knowledge:

        "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

        • smallerize4 hours ago
          It's the context that makes it crazy. Someone asked if there was any evidence of a link between Iraq and WMDs, at a press conference, and this is how he avoided giving an answer or taking any accountability.
        • georgeburdell3 hours ago
          I unironically paraphrase this at work all the time when talking about ops concerns. That and “the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”
          • alex_suzuki3 hours ago
            > the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

            takes notes. love this!

        • tclancy4 hours ago
          If it makes you feel any better, think of it more as a catchy synecdoche to communicate “the man was a dangerous incompetent” than a formal verification disproval of his claim.
        • mattm4 hours ago
          Anyone who's ever worked on a software project can attest to this
        • mirmor234 hours ago
          Rumsfeld heard it from some smart guy in NASA and repackaged it to sell Iraq war. This is similar to the influencers bandying around 'algorithms';

          Rumsfeld is more like the Big Lebowski in parroting whatever to make him look smart. Never for a moment he stopped to think about the amount of damage that would haunt the veterans that served there.

          He wrote a book about leadership but he lacked balls to do anything about Abu Ghraib for example, nor he did anything to stop the war. IMO he is just another corporate coward.

          In his most stunning display of 'leadership', he used autopen to stamp his signature on condolence letters sent to the families of soldiers killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Imagine that!

          • rpdillon2 hours ago
            > In his most stunning display of 'leadership', he used autopen to stamp his signature on condolence letters sent to the families of soldiers killed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

            I get what you're saying, but I would take this over our current administration any day of the week.

          • ethbr13 hours ago
            Well that's just like your opinion, man.
            • mirmor233 hours ago
              you look at the man who benefits...
        • YackerLose4 hours ago
          Wisdom tends to sound obvious, and obvious statements aren't novel. The digital society values the novel over the wise.
      • tyleo4 hours ago
        I think we're saying the same thing. I suspect there were a lot of people saying, "this probably won't work," but the Secretary of Defense pursued it anyways until real problems materialized.
      • amelius5 hours ago
        Both can be true. Incompetence AND malice.
        • schiffern5 hours ago
          Troublingly, I think he actually does think these ideas are helpful. Is a True Believer any less dangerous?

          "Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

          • dylan6044 hours ago
            I think True Believer is worse. I would say that if someone is willing to try something while still willing to accept that it might not work but need to confirm they'd be a rational person. A True Believer will not accept that the thing is not working and try to rationalize why others are still wrong.
          • noir_lord5 hours ago
            They are generally dangerous but they are truly dangerous when what they believe is itself dangerous.
          • jjgreen5 hours ago
            I'll be using that
        • budman14 hours ago
          a while back we had an army private as the secretary of defense.

          end of the day, his experience as a private meant nothing towards the job. perhaps he was slightly more able to relate to the needs of the troops.

          now we have a reserve captain. who was pushed out of the service for extremest views and body art. his experience means he hates the army, and his selection to the post means his political views have been vindicated.

          a master of strategy? leader of men in battle? CEO of the worlds biggest institution? nope. he doesn't even understand those roles.

      • bryancoxwell5 hours ago
        Or simpler still, although related. Maybe we just can’t afford it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/07/21/...
        • xnx4 hours ago
          Not being able to afford something has never stopped the US before.
          • bryancoxwell4 hours ago
            It’s literally stopping them from routine training and maintenance.
          • duskdozer4 hours ago
            Well, depends on what "something"
    • alexgieg4 hours ago
      There's also the relevant details that we don't live at a time in which being extremely muscular and full of aggressiveness (which is what the testosterone policy was meant to cause) makes one a good soldier. Being healthy and able to exert a lot of physical effort is absolutely needed, but beyond that not much is gained.

      To put it mildly, no matter how pumped up with hormones one is, one cannot outrun an explosion (much less a thermobaric one), a sniper firing from hundreds of meters away or, for that matter, a drone swarm. For those kinds of challenge other traits are needed.

      And these required traits are dismissed as unimportant, just witness all the extremely competent military personal, including medal recipients, who were dismissed or made to "voluntarily" resign due to stuff that had no bearing whatsoever on whether they were good soldiers or not.

      Note: I'm not American and, from the perspective of my country's own national interests, which tend to be at odds with the US's more often than not, it's a good thing the US is doing all of this, since it's making itself weaker. But from a personal perspective, that I find it quite sad, I do. I have too many American friends for me not to worry about what this will cause them on the long run.

      • somenameforme3 hours ago
        I'd challenge that its goal was aggressiveness. Testosterone is positively correlated with many extremely good things - energy, mood, better health, and much more. And it's inversely correlated similarly with depression, other forms of mental illness, persistent fatigue, and so on. Basically what men turn into as they age is, in large part, caused by testosterone reduction which naturally goes down as we age.

        If there was some way to ensure the military had a higher end level of testosterone it would almost certainly be a very good idea. But the problem is that testosterone can't be supplemented like other things. When supplemented, your own body's production of t simply shuts down and doesn't necessarily return once the supplements end. So it creates a life-long dependency on testosterone injections, that are fairly expensive, at least in the US.

        I think that aspect of it is why they most likely rolled this back. Not only do you have the issue of an army that's now dependent upon supplements for basic functioning, but you're going to have military retirees, who are already often left in a shit situation, now also dependent upon a relatively expensive treatment, forever.

      • Der_Einzige4 hours ago
        This is also why I'd reform all types of US Military basic training. It's shocking to see how different the treatment is between standard basic training for US grunts vs for example, the UK.

        In the UK, the things valued and required of their soldiers are far less focused on "breaking them down and building them up again", there's an order of magnitude less yelling, there's more liberty, and there's less of an "ethos to kill".

        Yet the Royal Marines, having gone through this kind of training, can still regularly mog our own special forces troops and has proven that in the Fakland wars, a war they may very well be having a rd 2 in soon.

        For context, US Marine basic training

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjDHoNcH5o4

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9gnRQaXH38

        Compare this to Royal Marine (officer) basic training:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv-pxrUNhmw

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ime0t2I_eKE

        • kansface2 hours ago
          Why compare marine boot camp to officer basic training? Officer training looks very different in the US, even for the marines.
    • somenameforme3 hours ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't understand that testosterone can't be 'supplemented' in the normal sense because of how it operates. If somebody gets a testosterone supplement, your own body will stop producing testosterone. And if you ever stop taking the supplement, your own natural production may never return. So it's often a one-way trip. If you're on t-replacement, you're on t-replacement for life.

      An army that would fall to pieces without a constant supply of testosterone supplements is probably not going to be the most effective fighting force.

    • josefresco3 hours ago
      You're giving them too much credit. It's pure incompetence/malfeasance like everything the regime does in the name of "culture wars". Somewhere, some testosterone lab with connections got paid.
    • XorNot4 hours ago
      Going on injectable testosterone suppresses natural production. It also leads to compensatory feedback effects like an increase in estrogen.

      Once you're on it it's very hard to come off it, and the side effects are significant.

  • bob10295 hours ago
    > “Taking testosterone is not going to make you more manly, more strong, or a more robust individual. That’s just not how it works,”

    It will make you stronger. Perhaps not at certain therapeutic ranges, but there is a reason this would get you kicked out of the Olympic Games.

    • roncesvalles5 hours ago
      I think it still depends. More test can also result in more estrogen. There is selection bias in athletes who dope because they're the ones who happen to respond positively to it.

      There must be a graveyard of athletes who tried doping and it made them worse lol.

      • vkazanov4 hours ago
        It will make you stronger period.

        There are side effects, problems, long-term consequences...

        But testosteron blood levels absolutely do regulate muscle growth.

      • jbird993 hours ago
        that's why most bodybuilders take other drugs to counter the estrogen, like arimidex or aromasin. It definitely makes you bigger and stronger.
    • radial_symmetry4 hours ago
      it absolutely does make you stronger, I was training for powerlifting when I started it and my lifts went up a LOT with no change in my routine or diet, both of which I was tracking.
      • ChrisMarshallNY4 hours ago
        It also makes you crazy. I have a friend that took it for years. It certainly made him buff, but it also made him divorced, friendless, addicted, and unhealthy.
        • monster_truck4 hours ago
          Yep. Knew someone that got himself killed thinking that being strong was the same thing as knowing how to fight. Stupidly got into a fistfight on pavement outside a bar, got knocked out and that was it.
          • skylurk4 hours ago
            Testosterone is a hell of a drug.
        • 4 hours ago
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      • pasquinelli4 hours ago
        what if your baseline was not so much training? i assume it works by improving recovery, if not someone will need to explain what it's supposed to do to make you stronger. so, given that, your anrcdote indicates you were overtraining before t, and t reduced your recover times so that you were no longer overtraining.

        but if you're working well within your ability to recover and you add t and change nothing else, how do you get stronger?

        • ethbr13 hours ago
          You're arguing against something that's been known for decades: testosterone boosts lean muscle mass gain.

          It may have other negative effects, but it does influence muscle mass.

          Read the literature, e.g. Bhasin 1996 (and other follow-up studies that reproduced the effects) https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

        • zemvpferreira4 hours ago
          Do teenagers need to work out to get stronger than when they were little children, or are their hormones making them grow regardless? This should be self-explanatory to a good degree.
      • DonHopkins3 hours ago
        It also makes you proudly brag in public about doing absolutely idiotic things.

        Do you also brag about using ChatGPT to cheat on your homework too?

    • Tostino4 hours ago
      Yes, and when you have guys at a FOB that hasn't had a resupply for a while, I'm sure their trt supply will be great. No withdrawal problems at all.
    • petesergeant4 hours ago
      Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? That's exactly what testosterone does, including the "more manly" part. Literally the reason it's gender-affirming care for female-to-male transitioners and aging men. "Robust" is the only word there that's questionable, and even then, I'd say science says "probably". You can give it to a horse, and it will make the horse notably stronger and more “manly”.
    • nba456_5 hours ago
      Crazy that a doctor would say taking testosterone would not make you stronger. Remind me to never listen to the American College of Physicians.
      • duskdozer4 hours ago
        It depends. It may be that more testosterone when you already produce "enough" - which is individual-dependent - won't give much additional strength if you aren't training specifically to take advantage of it. Additionally, hormones are complicated. The body will downregulate its own production when given "too much". I'm aware that bodybuilders have to follow certain treatment regimens and add other drugs to restart the body's production if they stop supplementing it at times.
      • lokar5 hours ago
        IMO he obviously meant boosting someone who was low back into the normal range.
      • Der_Einzige3 hours ago
        You should see what they say about Male Circumcision (it's great!), water births (bad!), Chiropractors (okay for insurance I guess?), etc

        Fuck the US medical system and specifically fuck medical ethics researchers who make the american medical system so morally bankrupt.

  • fredley3 hours ago
    Not that anyone needs any validation of how dumb this all is/was, but high testosterone levels don't necessarily mean you're going to be a burly muscly macho man. https://youtu.be/1162ouPHH3Q?si=ZAy5vo3loo0EfYbu&t=84
  • ChiperSoft3 hours ago
    I was very surprised the "we need more white babies" people were pushing a policy that lowers sperm count.
  • blipvert3 hours ago
    They realised that gender affirming care is something that they were against?
  • nabbed3 hours ago
    Might be a temporary rescission, though:

    'the Pentagon said that the document, titled “Clinical Guidance for Health and Human Performance Optimization,” had been temporarily rescinded on September 3 to allow for updates.'

  • ungreased06755 hours ago
    I was very curious what the results were going to show.
    • ceejayoz4 hours ago
      They'll release them right after they finish the "tylenol causes autism" study.
    • deepsquirrelnet4 hours ago
      They wouldn't provide results. You'd only get conclusions that were made from the beginning.
    • 4 hours ago
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    • Joel_Mckay4 hours ago
      Shorter lives due to cardiovascular damage, and shrinking testicles as their body fails to regulate the self-inflicted hormone imbalance... Also irrational mood swings... A million piece puzzle was just solved.

      Real athletes never touch the stuff for good reason, and sport organizers tend to test the 40lb overweight dude keeping pace as obviously more suspicious. =3

  • taybin4 hours ago
    I’m surprised that reading The Game hasn’t been added to the annual trainings for soldiers and DoD civilians.
  • jmpman4 hours ago
    I figured they were just trying to manipulate the elections.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12230349/

  • jknoepfler3 hours ago
    Why would it require explanation? It was stupid beyond belief to begin with. It would be like rescinding a policy profiling soldiers using phrenology or waving some scientology wand over them or something.

    The fact that people think there's anything even worthy of discussion on this is alarming to me.

    • xboxnolifes3 hours ago
      Avoiding explanation on removal is the same as avoiding responsibility for enacting.
  • Steven4204 hours ago
    Hopefully they figured out that they would be effectively castrating their military
  • K0balt4 hours ago
    So, was this some kind of trans witch hunt to weed out people who were transitioning? Or was it just a misguided attempt to name and shame men who weren’t “manly” enough?

    It’s hard to imagine it was actually an ill conceived measure aimed at supporting healthy testosterone levels, but I guess it isn’t impossible.

    I feel like maybe it was a cartoon inspired measure to create a super army of aggressive super soldiers? It’s got what plants crave? SMH

    • krapp3 hours ago
      >So, was this some kind of trans witch hunt to weed out people who were transitioning? Or was it just a misguided attempt to name and shame men who weren’t “manly” enough?

      Probably both.

  • badgersnake5 hours ago
    If we explained how dumb this was somebody would have to resign, so we’ll just sweep it under the carpet.
    • bloaf4 hours ago
      My money is on "someone higher up the chain of command got pinged for low T, and decided that the tests were bullshit".
      • fooker4 hours ago
        The only person higher up the chain of command is the president.

        I guess your theory does make sense.

  • mrobot3 hours ago
    the police told me that breakfast cereals started in Michigan boys homes before the prisons to control testosterone
  • jesse_dot_id4 hours ago
    It's because it's incredibly stupid.
  • ramesh313 hours ago
    They never cared about the policy at all. It was just something to get a bump in the Fox News cycle for a day. Leadership knew that, and quietly let it go.
  • quickthrowman4 hours ago
    What’s next, force the troops to drink as much whiskey as the SecDef does on a daily basis? Most of them would die on the first day, after their BAC hits .3% at 3 PM, a double whiskey on the hour every hour hits the liver hard.
  • bflesch5 hours ago
    Is there even a US-based testosterone supply chain? Or was the idea to inject all their service members with a product from overseas that could have supply problems or subtle strategic "impurities"?
    • petcat5 hours ago
      The US produces an enormous amount of pharmaceutical testosterone
      • Joel_Mckay4 hours ago
        "only 17% of dairy cows in the U.S. are now being treated with the synthetic [bGH/rbST] hormone"

        It is perfectly safe for US children according to the FDA, and illegal in most other developed countries. =3

  • greggsy5 hours ago
    I had no idea this was a thing.

    It seems to edge us closer to the dystopian ‘super soldier gone wrong’ trope.

    • pavel_lishin4 hours ago
      It seems more like the "middle school penis inspections" joke to me.
      • Der_Einzige3 hours ago
        That's some kind of urban joke on 4chan yet the far more objectively cruel act of mass male circumcision at birth happens daily and hardly anyone bats an eye at it.

        Why have horror movies when real life is all I need? Unironically!

        • xboxnolifes3 hours ago
          Presumably because a lot of people are circumcised and dont care.
  • add-sub-mul-div4 hours ago
    Stupid ideas is all they have yet they won't even stick with them?
    • stevenwoo4 hours ago
      First impressions will stick with people so just the announcement of things is seen as positive by supporters who do not seem inclined to peek behind the curtain and do work on following up on what actually happened (or listening to things contrary to dogma) - which tends to get a lot less media coverage because it requires journalists to work instead of regurgitating press releases. A lot of low information voters can be swayed by this. It doesn’t work on people who are paying attention but it’s not meant for them.
  • actionfromafar4 hours ago
    But but ... how will they now win against iranian bears in hand to paw combat?
  • jrm45 hours ago
    "Without explanation"

    I mean, sure, it would probably be embarrassing to have to say "because this was extremely stupid and nonsensical and entirely due to the weird hangups of the present guy in charge."

    • diydsp4 hours ago
      Perhaps the explanation is: to make space for other incoherent self-defeating policies like threatening the Fed that they'll increase tariffs if rates aren't lowered?
    • ilaksh4 hours ago
      They're not weird at all given his worldview. It's Nazism. From his book to his public statements and actions, he consistently expresses this. The only thing he does not do is use the literal language that is not accepted. But the meaning and actions are the same. People are in denial.