223 pointsby baud1472587 hours ago28 comments
  • kayo_202110307 hours ago
    A very insightful, and correct, piece.

    I'll quote in full the following, which I think gets to the heart of the matter. If you have no push, you can't apply pressure to the point.

    > The notion that amateurs talk tactics and professionals talk logistics is frequently discussed in military academies and war colleges, yet it is rarely reflected in the Army’s budget requests or modernization priorities. The outdated concept of the tooth-to-tail ratio, which implies the logistical tail is a bureaucratic waste that must be minimized to support the combat teeth, must be fundamentally reexamined. In modern warfare, the tail is the primary target. If the tail is severed, the teeth are rendered useless.

    • silvestrov7 hours ago
      One of the most interesting innovations in the Ukraine war is their internal market place for drones, letting each drone group decide which drones they want to procure and use in battle.

      It is not a top-down decision, production and supply as other armies use for their weapons logistics.

      • lopsotronic4 hours ago
        You also have to ponder how it looks when you remove the Chinese supply chain for all those commodity parts. Which will almost certainly be the case if we decide to punch that dance card.

        Having a boundless cornucopia of servos and radios will affect the shape of your logistics/maintenance/fabrication complex.

        That's not just a "Ukraine Problem" either.

        • Animats3 hours ago
          Ukraine and Taiwan quietly cooperate in weapons development and production, especially drones.[1] They both have big, aggressive neighbors. Ukraine knows how to fight them, and Taiwan can make electronics in quantity. Ukraine is starting to get cooperation from Japan, too, but that's in an earlier stage.[2] With Taiwan, it's serious.

          The paper doesn't mention Ukraine at all, yet it's all about the kind of war that Ukraine is fighting.

          [1] https://dset.tw/en/research/000491-2/

          [2] https://www.technology.org/2026/03/17/japan-might-sell-weapo...

          • lo_zamoyskian hour ago
            And if we're talking Ukraine, we have to talk Poland as it has been facilitating 90% of all Western military equipment, humanitarian aid, and crucial trade deliveries into the country.

            Poland is, of course, geopolitically positioned in a way that requires at least regional power status to survive if not thrive. A power vacuum in Poland is bad news for the security of Europe and Poland's immediate neighbors and regional partners as well.

            As a result, an important component of long term Polish grand strategy has been the quiet building up of its logistical prowess and might and its supply chains for years. Current big names: the CPK/Port Polska megaproject which is designed with civilian/military dual use in mind; Euroterminal Sławków; expansion of the Port of Gdańsk and other ports. Regional projects include the Via Carpathia and the Via Baltica.

            • Animats20 minutes ago
              Poland and the Baltics know they're next on Putin's list. So they're glad to help Ukraine. Better than fighting the Russians on home territory.

              Taiwan and Japan, though, aren't in Russia's line of fire. The cooperation with Ukraine is because Ukraine figured out how to stop Russia. Taiwan has a real threat, and if they can build defenses that mean China faces a years-long war, there probably won't be one.

        • elictronic3 hours ago
          Here is a 2024 article pointing out China doing exactly this and Ukraine making many of the blocked items at home. You might be 2 years to late with this comment. https://kyivindependent.com/as-china-weaponizes-the-drone-su...

          China controls much of the integration and many of the low level components for super low cost electronics and motors. They aren't the ones controlling all the fabs for the circuits and integration can be done anywhere if you want to pay extra.

          • bix63 hours ago
            Thanks for linking this is interesting. It sounds like they are still unable to produce many of the base components though?

            > most manufacturers of everything within Ukraine remain dependent on imported machining tools — traditionally Chinese, but increasingly Indian and, for those who can afford it, European.

            But for the cheapest components, simple base-line products like transistors, circuit boards, wiring, or solar cells, nobody can yet step up to the scale of China’s mass production.

        • kevin_thibedeau3 hours ago
          The US strongly avoids foreign content for this reason. This policy is often the only thing keeping domestic commodity component manufacturing afloat. This is also the main reason Micron is getting a subsidized fab.
        • bix64 hours ago
          I am so curious about this. There are a lot of 3D printed drone startups now. But nobody really seems to be thinking about the electronics sourcing. Great you can print a drone shell wherever but what happens if China turns off exports?
          • galangalalgolan hour ago
            Ukraine seems pretty paranoid about this, having backup suppliers for parts. Looks like they take efficiency hits and build more complicated things out of multiple discrete chips that would normally be ontegrated commercially so that they can go to suppliers in Oceania, eurasia, or eastasia depending on who is being helpful.
          • cyberax23 minutes ago
            Which supplies? Batteries are produced everywhere. Power electronics are dime-a-dozen. IMUs, GPS chips, and CPUs are produced in Taiwan anyway.
        • cyberax26 minutes ago
          There are no truly irreplaceable components there. It's going to only be a problem if China stops _all_ the exports.

          Even then, a custom supply chain can be set up domestically. You'll probably have to limit the number of variations for these servos and motors, but you can produce them even manually if you absolutely have to.

      • tpurves7 hours ago
        this strategy worked to keep Ukraine alive, by enabling them to throw literally anything and everything they could obtain into the fight. And the system enabled rapid experimentation and evolution of what works. Also they didn't have enough of anything to equip all units equally or fully, so a market-like system of was also a way to triage short supply.

        However the logistics costs of fragmentation are very real (relevant to the supply chain theme of this story). And now that Ukraine is producing the better part of 10 millions(!) of drones per year, they are shifting towards more standardized drone models to simplify logistics, achieve more economies of scale and also now to have the capacity to keep units equipped more evenly and reliably.

        • mcswell6 hours ago
          Reminds me of the Cambrian revolution: suddenly there were all kinds of weird animals. Many of these kinds rapidly disappeared, while a few more successful ones kept on. Or at least that's my reading.
          • Animats3 hours ago
            Look at 1950s aircraft. That was the decade of really weird aircraft, as people figured out how jets were supposed to work. Supersonics. VTOL aircraft. The X-planes. Rocket-assisted takeoff. After that, more was known about what worked, and designs became more similar.
          • QuercusMax5 hours ago
            • shimman2 hours ago
              There's something hilarious, in the truly cosmic sense of the word, about discussing an "explosion" that spanned between 10 to 25 millions of years of its duration.

              Wonder how xenoanthropologists will discuss the "simian explosion" that we're currently experiencing (barely 300,000 years old ATM).

        • jerlam6 hours ago
          Wouldn't a fragmented, decentralized system also help make their supply chains more resilient? If they had a single large drone factory, it would be a sizable target.
          • mikewarot4 hours ago
            During WW2 in the United States, you had all sorts of consumer goods companies reorganized to output a prodigious amount of military supplies. There were multiple companies making the same model of things, with fairly rigorous QA to ensure quality and uniformity.

            For example, the BC-348 receiver, widely used in aircraft, was produced initially by RCA, and eventually "farmed out" to 3 other manufacturers.

            More than 4 million M1903 Springfield Rifle were produced by the Smith-Corona typewriter company.

            Here's a really good example, look at how the production of proximity fuzes, was distributed.[1]

            The key thing is to have second sources for everything. Something the US military seems to have forgotten, or decided to ignore in their pursuit of gold-plated weapons systems that give the most kick-backs.

            [1] https://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/vtproximityfuze.htm

            • rwmj3 hours ago
              It's not a great comparison because Germany could not hit the US mainland. Even if there had been a single giant everything factory it wouldn't have mattered.
          • soco6 hours ago
            One design doesn't mean one factory. And it's not about one design anyway, just the thought of culling the less performing ones.
            • lostlogin2 hours ago
              It’s more brutal than that.

              The Sherman tank wasn’t the best tank, but being able to make a lot of them was useful.

              As per Stalin, quantity has a quality all of its own.

              • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
                I've heard exactly this argument about the Soviet T-34.
      • LPisGood3 hours ago
        The system is useful for many reasons, not the least of which that it provides an easy way to avoid war crimes (which hurt the war effort via bad PR in partner countries). They award units 10x as many points (which can be redeemed for drones, HIMARS strikes, etc) for a capture than they do for a kill.
      • tim-tday4 hours ago
        Procurement innovation wins the war.
      • tencentshill2 hours ago
        Because it's a defensive war for their own homeland, not just a job.
      • homeonthemtn7 hours ago
        I hadn't heard this before. Do you have a good article on it? I'd be curious to learn more
    • larrik7 hours ago
      They should probably rename it from "tail" to "neck" and watch the attitudes shift immediately.
      • cucumber37328424 hours ago
        Tooth to tail is crappy PC/corporate-approved rename. The concept used to have a bunch of arrow and spear related names and a bunch of informal phallic counterparts all of which are better suited to the fundamental workflow of mechanized offensive operations.
        • LPisGood3 hours ago
          For curiosity’s sake, what were these things referred to historically and informally?
      • masfuerte3 hours ago
        That should call it coccyx. That sounds like something Trump would support.
      • mcswell6 hours ago
        Or maybe "dentures"?
        • ykonstant6 hours ago
          That will certainly resonate with the generals (≧▽≦)
    • pfortuny3 hours ago
      The first thought when moving people must be "where/how will they shit?" Only once this is solved can you ask "what will they eat?".
    • aprentic7 hours ago
      It's always about logistics. The Three Kingdoms War was one of the bloodiest conflicts in human history. It was largely enabled by the invention of the wheelbarrow.
    • Someone4 hours ago
      Historically, that was phrased as “an army marches on its stomach”

      I think that’s an apt comparison because it was hard to keep an army fed (https://acoup.blog/2022/07/15/collections-logistics-how-did-...)

    • phkahler7 hours ago
      The US military knows full well the importance of logistics. TFA is somehow arguing for distributed distribution networks that are harder to track and attack. Why not advocate for improved defenses along the supply lines? Or is it down to percentages where just one good hit has large effect?
      • Animats3 hours ago
        The main point of this paper is that rear area bases are too vulnerable now. This paper is from West Point, and is the view from the Army side. It's a big problem for air forces, too.

        The US has a tradition of large, supposedly secure bases in the rear. The USAF has relied on this since WWII. It's not working any more. Iran has been hitting US air bases. In the last day, they've hit US bases in Qatar, Jordan, Kuwait and Bahrain. That's just this round. There were previous hits a few months back. It's not publicized much, but it's no secret. It's hard to protect an air base against drones. Air bases are big, everyone knows where they are, airplanes are hard to hide from drones, and are vulnerable to small explosive charges. As Russia keeps finding out as Ukraine hits their air bases. There have been hits well inside Russia. Blast-resistant hangars in Crimea have been attacked. Don't leave a door open.

        China is going in for airbase hardening in a big way.[1] This is sometimes called a "concrete sky" program. The USAF is way behind in the Pacific. Too many planes parked out in the open, or in weak hangars.

        Active defenses against drones and missiles do work, but they just thin them out. Some get through. If the attacker has enough manufacturing capacity, the defenses can be overwhelmed. Ukraine is currently building about 7 million drones a year.

        [1] https://www.hudson.org/arms-control-nonproliferation/concret...

        • chasd0036 minutes ago
          > The US has a tradition of large, supposedly secure bases in the rear. The USAF has relied on this since WWII. It's not working any more.

          I guess we're all guerrilla fighters now.

          • Animats24 minutes ago
            "The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea" - Mao

            Guerrilla forces have to be popular, or at minimum, have the local population cowed. They're useful for kicking an oppressor out of your own country, but not for conquest.

        • shimman2 hours ago
          Maybe the US should focus more on diplomacy and open collaboration rather than letting a few dozen psychopaths convince the country we need to support a war machine that has benefited no one outside of the defense industry.
          • Noumenon7244 minutes ago
            If the problem was as simple as a few individuals and had no benefits it would not persist -- this is a Hollywood view of the world that won't help you understand your opposition.
      • maxglute6 hours ago
        Knowing logistics is important =/= able to adapt logistics to modern environment. Last 40-50 years US adversaries couldn't really contest/degrade US logistics at scale. Article is suggesting with new tech, they probably could, and hence may have to redo the entire system for distributed survivability / operate under chaos. Aka 60/70% of the force (the tail) is going to have to change the way they do things. It's hard to make 60/70% of org change, especially the boring bureaucratic/logistics part built around predictability, who are going to want to stay predictable and insist everything is fine with these minor changes, until its not.
      • zipy1247 hours ago
        They argue for both no? Increased armour for logistics, but also the notion that yes, if one good hit destroys your whole stockpile then you would need a 100% success rate defense mechanism which is impossible when you can be overwhelmed by the number of drones/missiles seen in modern warfare.
      • rawgabbit5 hours ago
        Ukraine is deploying AI enabled drones that require no fiber optic wires and no electronic tethering. They patrol autonomously and identify targets; a human authorizes the strike and they take out targets by themselves. This is the holy grail of modern warfare; destroy the enemy’s rear staging and logistics. If they don’t have fuel or ammo, they are a defenseless sitting target.
        • mikeodds44 minutes ago
          got any more links for info on these?
        • nickphx4 hours ago
          huh? how does one keep a human in the loop for decision making it there is not an 'electronic tether'?
          • rawgabbit3 hours ago
            A human is not piloting the drone. It patrols even if it lost communication due to jamming. It does need communication to ask the human for authorization to strike.
            • chasd0032 minutes ago
              > It does need communication to ask the human for authorization to strike.

              well.. about that. "A senior figure in the Ukrainian defence industry told New Scientist that a test took place two years ago involving fully autonomous drones set to destroy anything in a given area, with confirmed casualties"

              https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomou...

              this article says "one time test" but i, personally, can't believe it's not being used daily.

              https://arstechnica.com/ai/2026/06/ukraines-one-time-test-us...

              • bluGill2 minutes ago
                You need human confirmation (for now) only when your side might be there. Tell your army not to go someplace and you can kill anything that is there.
    • zcw1004 hours ago
      I guess you're just supposed to read Clausewitz not actually understand it.
    • petesergeantan hour ago
      > which implies the logistical tail is a bureaucratic waste that must be minimized to support the combat teeth, must be fundamentally reexamined

      Current SecDef thinks looking like a war movie hero is more important, however, so action on this front may be delayed.

    • alansaber7 hours ago
      The driving force of peacetime military procurement and organisation is bureaucracy. Hence we see the real developments in military doctrine from Ukraine, Iran etc.
    • anonymars3 hours ago
      Almost like a Prince Rupert's drop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert's_drop)
    • dahart6 hours ago
      > A very insightful, and correct, piece.

      I agree, or at least it feels insightful and right, though I can’t personally validate if it’s correct. But the big question I have is who is this written for, and what do they want to see happen? Is this to sway the public, to push politicians, to convince the Army internally to plan better, stop using contractors & no-bid contracts, or simply ask for more?

      Looks like military spending is currently ~20% of all Federal Revenue at somewhere close to $1T, and it exceeds the combined spending of China and Russia by maybe 2x. Are we wanting to go back to 1960’s 50% of Federal Revenue? Why don’t we have reasonable logistics and supply lines and infrastructure with $1T?

      Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_...

      • tclancy6 hours ago
        >who is this written for, and what do they want to see happen

        It's at wespoint.edu. The US military has a long and proud history of really good thinkers writing insightful and important pieces the government then ignores. My outsider impression has always been there was a freedom of ideas there. Don't get used to it though as Pete Hesgeth is fixing it fast as he can.

      • rawgabbit5 hours ago
        It was written by a major trying to convince both those in charge of military doctrine (army leadership) and military budget (civilian leadership). Both of which can be obstinate and counterproductive. Army brass sometimes prioritize their careers over everything else. Civilian leadership sometimes prioritize their careers over everything else.
        • kayo_202110304 hours ago
          Yes. I agree, although careerism in the military is maybe not that strong an influence; it is, for sure, but not that strong yet. Careerism in the political class is probably exactly as strong as you claim it is. However, I do hope there are sensible people within that group too, and they heed the underlying message.
          • cucumber37328424 hours ago
            The military is still fairly results focused compared to the political class so that at least sort of pushes back on the most flagrant careerism.
            • shimman2 hours ago
              How can you make this comment when the US military has literally created an entire industry that has served no single purpose outside of flagrant careerism? Like the military industry complex is a real thing and is almost 100 years old at this point, all it's done is make the world drastically unsafe while doing an immense amount of harm across the planet.
      • nradov6 hours ago
        Foreign military budget numbers are largely fake and can't be attempted to be believed. China's government spending isn't publicly released and can't be independently verified. A lot of what the US considers to be military spending falls into separate categories in China. At least on a purchasing power parity basis their actual spending is probably close to ours now, maybe even higher.
        • ecshafer4 hours ago
          This is a good point that shows the weakness in a lot of these comparing military budgets. Imagine an example where one country spends $1000 per soldier and another spends $100k per soldier. IF they both field 100 soldiers. One budget is 100x the other, but by PPP they are equal.

          A practical example is health care. US Gov gives free healthcare to service members. This is in the military budget. A different gov which already gives free health care to everyone, would have this in a different budget even if its effectively still supporting the military for each service member.

          US Soldiers/Airmen/Sailors/Marines are incredibly expensive each.

          • topgrain23 hours ago
            > A practical example is health care. US Gov gives free healthcare to service members. This is in the military budget. A different gov which already gives free health care to everyone, would have this in a different budget even if its effectively still supporting the military for each service member.

            Yeah, between military (active, dependents, retired, et c), elected officials who get government-paid healthcare (in any level of government), government workers (all levels, city, county, state, federal), and school workers (primary, secondary, public colleges and universities), and Medicare (old people), and Medicaid plus CHIP (poor people), and probably some others I’m forgetting, the US engages in as much government per-capita healthcare spending as some peer states do on their national healthcare schemes… but without covering everyone. However, the government does already cover a huge proportion of the population, including some of the most expensive (old people), at least partially. And that’s not counting government spending on contractors that take some of that money and pay for their workers’ healthcare with it.

            It’s just split up across thousands of different budgets, instead of one.

        • remarkEonan hour ago
          Yeah, this is true, and PRC is pretty explicit about this too. For those who pay close attention to stuff like this, the raw comparisons in dollars spent are just not that useful with PRC has developed entire industry infrastructure around swiftly swapping over to a military purpose.
      • AlexCoventry4 hours ago
        > Why don’t we have reasonable logistics and supply lines and infrastructure with $1T?

        Deeply entrenched corruption, obviously.

      • skywhopperan hour ago
        It’s written by folks who want to convince the military to do better.

        The fact that the US wastes a lot of money on what’s likely a very ineffective military is not a surprise, surely. Yes, they should have a better logistics system for all that money.

    • asdff3 hours ago
      It is kind of interesting seeing the ukraine war tiptoe from actually striking the tail in earnest. We see some attacks on moscow refineries in recent days, yes, but why not full scale targeting of total industrial collapse of the russian state? Similarly, why doesn't Kyiv look like Gaza?

      I guess ukraine doesn't want to be slapped equally hard. We see this in the iran war too. Small scale, targeted attacks to some cherry pieces of infrastructure to make headlines and perhaps bring people to the negotiating table, while all the power and capability is there to wipe Iran back to the stone age if so inclined.

      I think there are complex factors at play that prevent an actual total annihilation attack on the tail, even though it seems like it should be well within capabilities.

      • dgacmu3 hours ago
        I think you're over-estimating the capability of both sides of the fight (absent nuclear weapons on the part of Russia). Both sides appear to be using drones and missiles as fast as they can manufacture them. One could argue Russia could be more selectively targeting industrial infrastructure - I don't know if their attacks on residential areas are an inability to target well or some kind of hope that demoralization will be effective - but Ukraine is, I believe, doing as much as they can to Russia's oil & defense sectors as they are able.

        example: "CAR’s analysis, based on physical examinations of marks on the remnants, shows that the missile that struck Okhmatdyt hospital was produced at most three months before the attack. Or perhaps even eight days before. " [1]

        Sanctions and limited parts availability are limiting Russia's ability to manufacture weapons [2]

        [1] https://global.espreso.tv/russia-ukraine-war-car-researchers...

        [2] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/warstudies/assets/kcl-fasi-paper31-win...

        • asdff3 hours ago
          Russia has been able to target Kyiv and destroy arbitrary apartment buildings the entire war. I've just spent a few mins searching through news articles over the years, there's a story of a destroyed Kyiv apartment in 2022 and one from 3 days ago now in 2026 of course. So why the stayed hand? Clearly Russia then and now is capable of reaching out and destroying Kyiv arbitrarily. I still believe they could have turned it into Gaza within mere days or weeks 4 years ago if they really wanted to. But clearly there are factors beyond their capabilities that prevent them from using their capabilities to the fullest extent. One might wonder what the US response would look like if Kyiv was actually destroyed and some 3 million were now refugees——american boots on the ground perhaps? Yugoslav war style joint coalition?
          • dgacmu3 hours ago
            Russia's inability to have a decisive victory against Ukraine is at odds with the idea that it has sufficient stockpiles and launch capability to reduce kiev to rubble any time it wishes. If it had that capability, it would have the capability to destroy Ukraine's defense manufacturing sector - or simply its entire manufacturing sector - which it clearly does not. It's also at odds with the evidence that Russia is launching missles roughly as fast as they can build them.
            • asdff2 hours ago
              I guess the question becomes then why did putin start the war without sufficient buildup of missile reserves to flatten Kyiv in the first few days? And why not contract with israeli defense companies for precision missile technology? It doesn't seem like their relations are really that severed even with the whole Iran issue. One would also think China might also appreciate a client willing to battle test their precision military hardware.
              • nradovan hour ago
                You'll have to ask Putin that question. But the usual intelligence analysis of that decision is based on several factors.

                1. Putin thinks the disintegration of the USSR in 1991 was a historic disaster and wants to reassemble much of it as some sort of new "Russian Empire" in order to control more resources and establish defensive space to protect the motherland against a future foreign invasion. He sees Ukraine as a fake country.

                2. Russian demographics are collapsing and Putin himself is aging so this was his last chance to take decisive action. Despite limited stockpiles of advanced weapons, waiting would have made an invasion even harder.

                3. Putin has surrounded himself with loyal yes-men who curried favor by telling him what he wanted to hear instead of giving him accurate information about Ukrainian politics and military capabilities.

                4. Putin perceived Joe Biden as being particularly weak and unlikely to take decisive action.

                5. Russia's recent invasions of Georgia (2008) and Ukraine (2014) had gone fairly well so it wasn't irrational to expect a rapid victory.

                To be clear I'm not trying to justify or excuse Putin's decision (I hope he loses) but rather to explain how he might have reached it.

                Israel isn't going to sell advanced weapons to Russia in current circumstances. It would be impossible to hide. Intelligence analysts can pick apart little fragments from a missile explosion and determine where the components were made. It's not technology that Russia lacks but the capacity to manufacture that technology at scale with acceptable quality.

                China is making a fortune selling weapons and dual-use equipment to both Russia and Ukraine. But they don't sell the good stuff because they don't want sensitive technology to fall into US hands, and because they want the option to bite off a chunk of Russian territory later.

              • mrguyoramaan hour ago
                Because "Flatten a city" actually takes dramatically more scale than anyone has seen in decades.

                40k Tons of bomb were dropped on Berlin in WW2. That's nearly all explosive payload too.

                That's about equivalent to 80k modern cruise missile warheads.

                The US has built less than 5000 Tomahawk missiles ever.

                Russia has fired approximately 6000 missiles into Ukraine in the course of the war.

                This is why the US still maintains a fleet of ancient "Bomb Truck" style bombers in the B52. Nothing compares to 100 B52s flying over a target for weeks. They allowed us to drop 20k tons of bombs on Vietnam and the surrounding countries. A horrific capability.

                Gaza is a combination of Israel being utterly fucking insane and apparently desiring to terrorize people, and the fact that Gaza is super tiny.

          • skywhopperan hour ago
            Gaza is about 1/20 the size of Kyiv, has 1/5 the population, has far fewer resources to fight back, and is much closer to its adversary. Kyiv is also just one city amongst dozens, making up less than 1/10th population of Ukraine.
          • nradov2 hours ago
            You're missing the point. Russia simply lacks the conventional missile production capacity necessary to flatten Kyiv. They used up most of their missile reserves early in the war and are now firing them off about as fast as they can build new ones. And it's not clear that they're able to accurately target individual buildings; some of those strikes appear to be random collateral damage. Russia is simply no longer capable of large-scale precision manufacturing; it's a relatively poor country with a broken tertiary education system and most of the foreign experts left years ago.
      • siriusastrebe3 hours ago
        Moscow could only accomplish this with nukes, and only early in the war. By this point Ukraine has dug underground for most of its crucial war-sustaining industry.

        Ukraine, well they don't have nukes but as I understand it, much of the USSR's nuclear arsenal was built in Ukraine. I suspect Ukraine could respond tit for tat.

        • asdff3 hours ago
          Why can they not use firebombing and other conventional munitions? If they can deliver a nuke surely they can deliver a conventional warhead. That is enough to level an urban area as we see in Gaza.
          • AngryDataan hour ago
            If you level a city you just removed 95% of the reason for trying to capture that city.

            Spending untold billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives for a pile of ash would never pay itself off.

            • mothballedan hour ago
              The reason for Putin at this point is more reputational than inherent value of whatever lies in Ukrainian city. I fully expect Putin would nuke the ever living shit out of Ukraine into a glass worthless pile of rubble if he thought he could get away with it.
          • lostlogin2 hours ago
            Israel levelled Gaza after capturing the area, with artillery and with air strikes.

            Russia hasn’t captured Kiev, their artillery can’t reach that far and they don’t have air superiority - Russia hardly has an airforce anymore.

            • marking-timean hour ago
              Also worth remembering that Gaza is effectively an island when it comes to logistics. This made it easy for Israel to cut off food/medicine/fuel. Essentially medieval siege warfare transferred to the present day.
          • siriusastrebe2 hours ago
            Russia fires conventional warheads into Kiev all the time. Thousands of civilians have been killed and injured. The city survives.

            Buildings in Kiev aren't made out of wood. Firebombs would do very little damage.

          • mrguyoramaan hour ago
            Russia cannot fly a plane into Ukrainian airspace. They barely even fly over Russia's side of the line right now.

            They toss bomb from miles back.

            Flying conventional bombers over enemy cities requires the ability to replace most of your bombers per year, or air supremacy, neither of which Russia has even a hope of doing.

            WW2 was industrialized the likes of which nobody has ever seen again.

          • skywhopperan hour ago
            Because Russia doesn’t actually have the resources to do this at the scale required. Russia is also not trying to obliterate Ukraine. They want to take over a real economy, not a wasteland.
            • actionfromafaran hour ago
              At this point, I think they would take the wasteland "win" if they had to. But they really don't have the resources to do carpet bombing or something like that. Just lobby pot-shots.
      • kakacik44 minutes ago
        Dude, read some proper war news ffs. During a recent single night, those russian assholes send on Kyiv around 500 shaheds, 50 kalibr missiles, 50 of something else I dont recall etc totalling around 600 long range missiles/warheads/medium sized long range drones, each capable of significant damage due to big heavy explosive load. If they could they would send more, luckily russians and competence dont meet at the same room often.

        If Ukraine's defense didnt shoot down >90% of them depending on the type it would be a total carnage, day after day.

        Of couse its largely useless wave of terror, very similar to V1/V2 terror attacks nazi germany did on London, with similar results - increasing resolve. But infrastructure is hammered, during winter it can be brutal, and country cannot go on like that forever.

      • thisislife2an hour ago
        > Similarly, why doesn't Kyiv look like Gaza?

        The stated Russian military goals are the "liberation" of the Donbass region and to enforce Ukraine's neutrality (i.e prevent it from joining any military alliance inimical to Russia). With the second goal, there is also the hope that future Ukrainian governments may not be as hostile to Russia as the current Ukrainian leaders and future Ukraine-Russia relations may be normalised as it was in the pre-Zelensky era. Deliberately targeting civilians, with a genocide in mind, makes that highly unlikely.

        Note that for the Israeli-right, genocide is the goal because their zionist ideology is based on the settler-coloniser philosophy, and the population of the Palestinian muslims currently outnumber the Israeli Jews (when you include Palestinians that are refugees too, who have a "right to return"). The Palestinians also have a higher birth rate than the Israelis. This is a huge obstacle to the one-state solution - even the Israeli moderates on either political spectrum fear to make Palestinians Israeli citizens (which is one way of ending the conflict) as they fear Israeli Jews would then become a minority. The Israeli-right's solution to this is to make the Palestinian muslims a minority in their own land. (Akin to what the settler-coloniser Europeans did in Canada, USA, Australia etc. with the native population - this is corroborated by a UN probe that says Palestinian children and Babies were ‘special targets’ of Israeli killings - https://www.rt.com/india/642399-israel-gaza-babies-targets/ ). Moreover, as the Israeli-right are mostly religious fundamentalists and have already amended the law declaring Israel to be a Jewish state, they are also resolutely opposed to making Israel a secular state. Thus, in their political vision of Israel, only Jews can ever be a first-class citizen, while non-Jews are always meant to have lesser political rights.

        > I think there are complex factors at play that prevent an actual total annihilation attack on the tail, even though it seems like it should be well within capabilities.

        It's not about military capabilities but the political repercussions. NATO cannot supply enough weapons to Ukraine till they shift to a war-time mode. Moreover, they cannot allow Ukraine to use their territory to attack Russia, which is needed for successfully executing such an operation. (They have been "experimenting" in this area by ignoring Ukraine's drone intrusions into their airspace, as the drones move towards Russian assets). And you also have to ensure that you don't push the Russians into a corner as they are a nuclear weapon state.

        With Iran, it is true that the Americans do have the capabilities to launch such an attack successfully. However, American allies - Iran's neighbours - fear that they will be caught in between the attack and bear the brunt of Iran's retaliatory attacks, specifically on their industry (oil and gas).

        Thus, in both cases, it is mostly politics that holds them back.

        For me, the most interesting bit of the article is this tid-bit:

        > To survive in contested environments, the Army must transition from a centralized hub-and-spoke sustainment model to a decentralized network of smaller, dispersed, mobile, and signature-managed nodes. Sustainment elements must be capable of relocating with the same frequency as maneuver battalion tactical operations centers, while distributed caching of fuel, water, and ammunition across concealed locations should replace the current reliance on large, centralized supply dumps. This transformation must be paired with deliberate investment in camouflage, concealment, and deception tailored to sustainment operations.

        That sounds very much like how the current Iranian military and para-military organisations are with their underground bunkers, warehouses and tunnels, with the ability to make independent command decisions in the absence of orders from central command. Even Iran's proxy, Hezbollah, is somewhat modelled similarly and that is why Israel's attack on Hezbollah's leadership (the pager bombing) hasn't had the impact that the Israelis hoped for - they are still bogged down fighting them in Lebanon.

  • bad_haircut727 hours ago
    When Russia invaded Ukraine, nobody (even the Ukranians) imagined that 5 years later they would have their own missiles hammering Russia 2500kms in the rear. Americans need to start accepting that a) the Iran war will also probably still be going on in 5 years and b) Iran will probably in a better place than they are now, strategically speaking.
    • malfist7 hours ago
      > Iran war will also probably still be going on in 5 years

      The Russia/Ukraine war has a goal, to make Ukraine either part of Russia or a client state.

      What's the goal of the US/Iran war? So far it seems like the goal is to mostly return to the status quo prior to the war. I can't imagine that could continue 5 years because there's just not an objective. Of course, I could easily be mistaken.

      • wnevets4 hours ago
        > What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

        To make certain people money by shorting the oil market. There is a reason why these "peace" deals are always announced on Fridays.

        • ashdksnndck6 minutes ago
          I never got the logic of this conspiracy theory. If you’re trying to make money insider trading off some events, wouldn’t you want markets to be open when the events occur? You’d like to be able to enter and exit your position immediately before and after any news breaks. Markets being closed when a deal is announced makes it less efficient to trade on that news.
      • segbrk7 hours ago
        That’s exactly why it could continue indefinitely. A war with no goal can’t be won. Nor can it be abandoned without bruising powerful egos.
        • runako6 hours ago
          Per the spec of the last 25 years, they will let it run until the party in control of the White House changes. The new party will be responsible for the exit & cleanup phase.
        • an hour ago
          undefined
      • MyHonestOpinon3 hours ago
        The US had the power to start the war. The US doesn't have the power to stop the war.
        • pphysch2 hours ago
          It absolutely does, it can simply choose to not bomb Iran after Iran enforces regulations on its (shared with Oman) waterway.

          Bombing Iran for a month because Iran fired on 4 ships that were violating its SoH rules is wildly disproportionate and optional.

          • TSiegean hour ago
            This is not necessarily true. Yes the strait of hormuz is technically in their territorial waters, but it has been recognized as an international water way until recently. Every country with a port on the other side of the strait is going to lose access. This might not be a tolerable situation to those allies of ours and they also have the ability to force the war to drag on. Maybe we walk and pull out from our bases in those countries. maybe they suck it up and live with paying tolls. but maybe they bomb a port in iran and iran strikes a us base in response
            • kakacik23 minutes ago
              Regognized by whom? This is very one sided view, obviously US sided.

              This kind of shit or excuses could not be pulled if we would be talking about gulf of mexico for example.

              US is not center of the world and rest of the world means >95% of mankind, rest of the world is pretty fed up with that unfair treatment and things are changing. Very slowly, but steadily.

      • forshaper7 hours ago
        There hasn't been a clear goal for an American war since the first Gulf War.
        • AlexCoventry4 hours ago
          The goals for intervention in the Serbia/Bosnia conflict were clear and noble, IMO.
      • bad_haircut727 hours ago
        Once you've lost something (I think sooner or later, Iran will succeed in sinking a big US ship) then even if you cant win, you also cant leave else its an admission of defeat - so it drags on and on and on.
        • TSiegean hour ago
          I'm not sure the US would behave as rationally in that scenario as you hope
      • 271836 hours ago
        Initially it's unclear what the goal was. But now the goal must be opening the strait of Hormuz ASAP. There's going to be serious economic fallout if that doesn't happen[0]. It remains to be seen how realistic that goal actually is. Iran has big advantages in their favor.

        [0] https://www.cnn.com/2026/07/08/business/iran-oil-trump-strai...

        • _trampeltier3 hours ago
          Can we agree on "the strait was open before the war" so it can't be a goal for the war.
          • 271832 hours ago
            No, unfortunately, because circumstances change. It was unbelievably stupid to attack Iran, and everyone involved knew this might happen, but now that it has happened it needs to be dealt with one way or the other.
      • 373748483 hours ago
        the goal of the war in iran is to produce a regime change that will prevent them from having nukes targeting israel

        islamic iran with nukes makes israel untennable and the us puppets in the gulf too

        the us will be forced to physically invade now that the first strike failed

        the us in its current form will not tolerate an existential threat to israel

        • selimthegrim3 hours ago
          Pakistan has nukes and I don't see the Gulf/Levant quaking in their boots
          • 373748482 hours ago
            It has no way to deliver them to Israel, and it is in itself a US vassal
        • pphysch2 hours ago
          > the us in its current form will not tolerate an existential threat to israel

          It seems to be tolerating Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir just fine!

          Imagine the different place Israel would be if it pursued Oct 7 as a criminal act instead of a pretext to commit genocide. Enormous strategic blunder by the Netanyahu regime. Israel would not be a global pariah state and it's entirely possible that regime change in Iran would have succeeded. But you are never going to regime change a people who know with certainty that they will be butchered/raped/tortured by their supposed "saviors" the Israelis. There is literally nothing worse than surrendering to Israel.

          • 373748482 hours ago
            the prevalence of secular jews in the state department makes them completely unable to read islamic countries. it's the third time this happens in a decade

            by punching islamic regimes you create a feedback loop of islamic eschatology

            the only way out now is forward ie boots on the ground. this is gonna happen whether dems or reps are in power

            • selimthegrim2 hours ago
              I seem to remember a onetime secular Jew named Leopold Weiss did a pretty good job.
              • 37374848an hour ago
                Indeed, and this breed of arabist has been relentlessly pushed out of the department since the 1960s which is why we are in the mess we are in

                there's a devilish mess of evangelical wasps secular jews actual jews irishmen and not a single person who has read more than two lines about islam let alone convert into it

                islam has been treated like communism or socialism ie somthkng you can root out in exchange for walmart and free stuff. thats not it. muslims are willing to die for it and they will prove it again and again, and no amount of conventional weaponry will bring afghanistan or iran to its heels for long

            • actionfromafaran hour ago
              The feedback loop of islamic eschatology is matched by the same in the Christian Right, so I think it's on purpose.
      • onlyrealcuzzoan hour ago
        > The Russia/Ukraine war has a goal, to make Ukraine either part of Russia or a client state.

        No, it has a goal to keep Putin in power.

        The Iran war happened to move people's interest from a certain set of files about a certain group people onto something else.

        It succeeded by that standard, but now has created the mess that you can't just start a war with a country to distract your voters and not suffer any consequences from it.

        Iran was not thrilled to be bombed to play a part in this distraction.

      • strulovich7 hours ago
        This is not a very charitable explanation, it takes politicians at their word during a war. (One should not do that, and you can refer to Putin’s language at 2022 as a parallel example to Trump’s)

        The initial US goals clearly were: 1. Regime change 2. Denial is of nuclear weapons

        It’s also clear these goals were not achieved. So the US changed tactics and goals. (Same as Russia no longer plans on capturing Kiev it seems)

        Most likely the US is stalling for time due to oil markets and has the same intentions as before, limited only by current capability.

        • AlexCoventry3 hours ago
          According to The Economist, the Iranian theocracy is no longer in power, the IRGC is. Still, not the regime change Trump was hoping for, that's for sure.

          > Khamenei’s killing has accelerated Iran’s transition from a theocracy to an ambitious nationalistic state dominated by military men. The irgc appears to wield power with few constraints. Clerics who challenged its influence—including former Presidents Mohammad Khatami and Hassan Rouhani—were conspicuously absent from the [funeral] processions.

          https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa...

        • dreamcompiler6 hours ago
          I think regime change is likely to happen within two years. Just not in Iran.
      • tbrake4 hours ago
        > What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

        kneecaping china by cutting off a huge source of its oil imports. Russia will not be able to make up the difference.

      • lenerdenator4 hours ago
        > What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

        It varies. Which is the problem.

        I can think of a few:

        1) Severely kneecap the Iranians' nuclear ambitions. This one might actually be working to an extent.

        2) Severely kneecap the Iranians' military ambitions in the Middle East as a whole, particularly with respect to Israel. This remains unknown. Their neighbors seem content to give them a pass for launching missiles into their infrastructure, possibly on the grounds of shared religion. Maybe they'll get tired of it.

        3) Cause regime change in Iran. Not happening now. Might not happen in the foreseeable future.

      • kylehotchkiss3 hours ago
        Write off depreciation on military hardware?
      • Varelion4 hours ago
        > What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

        Distract from the Epstein files. If you think anything else you:

            1 - Haven't been paying attention since 2008.
        
            2 - Are giving the administration way too much undeserved credit.
        • post-it4 hours ago
          I'm not sure anything is a distraction from the Epstein files. I don't think the administration cares about the Epstein files. What would be the fallout if they were all released? We already know that a lot of wealthy people were raping children. It's not like the US is going to prosecute.
          • 9devan hour ago
            So why exactly is the department of justice in contempt of congress and a judge right now, refusing to release them?

            Why are the names of perpetrators in the files censored, while those of victims remained clear?

            Why has not a single person been prosecuted since the files were released?

          • Varelion2 hours ago
            Someone's name appears on it more than the word "God" does on the bible, according to the press. I think a tangible confirmation of that, and the deeds that occurred, and the fact Epstein was a Mossad agent with Russian ties would send a lot of things crumbling.

            Did Bondi not say on camera that if the list was released "the system would collapse"?

          • fwip4 hours ago
            Depends on who's in it.
            • Varelion2 hours ago
              An open secret as to who is.
      • mcphage7 hours ago
        > What's the goal of the US/Iran war?

        What's the goal?! The US/Iran war has a ton of goals! Every day a new goal, each as improbable as the last.

        • Terr_3 hours ago
          Not only that, but even the status of the goals is insane.

          Right now Republicans are just flipping a coin every day to decide whether each "goal" is (A) a critical need where only Dear Leader can save us or (B) a glorious victory for Dear Leader who has solved everything forever.

          We saw the same with the the mutually-incompatible and shifting "goals" of the illegal taxes on American buyers (tariffs.) Some of those "goals" were being pre-declared as achieved simply by announcing the policy. (Narrator: "They weren't.")

        • anjel7 hours ago
          As with Ukraine, it's a David and Goliath kind of conflict and in both conflicts, the temptation for Goliath to escalate by leveraging scale is predictable, tempting and frought.
          • malcolmgreaves4 hours ago
            Iran is not David in this case. They’ve shown that their drone warfare is just a little bit under what the US military can provide. Remember that they destroyed a quarter of a trillion dollars radar installation. And the US has spent billions on munitions. The US can’t actually keep going in this war.
            • Terr_2 hours ago
              I once compared the historic GDP values, and IIRC if Iraq-vs-US in 2003 is 1x baseline, then Iran-vs-US today is 7x. Plus Iran (today) has 2x the population and 3x times the land area than Iraq (today).
      • jandrese7 hours ago
        The Trump administration forgot all of the lessons of Vietnam.
        • __s7 hours ago
          If it weren't for those bone spurs maybe that war wouldn't be so forgotten
        • JBiserkov6 hours ago
          Maybe because they dogged it?
      • pjc507 hours ago
        The goal is a very simple one: make Trump look good. It wouldn't be the first war in history to be driven by pure vanity of an absolute ruler.
      • ApolloFortyNine6 hours ago
        Well at this point the goal is for Iran to stop randomly blowing up innocent cargo ships. Or firing missiles at airports and cities in retaliation.

        [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/iran-war-live-us-says-iranian-...

        • csbrooks6 hours ago
          That sounds like it would be a return to the status quo.
        • _trampeltier3 hours ago
          The don't blow randomly ships.

          The US and Iran agreed (Point 4 and 5) on, for the next 60 days, Iran is "chief of traffic" in the strait.

          Iran say now, ships have to take the route close to Iran. But some ships like to take the route close to Oman. Iran is just shooting on these ships.

        • QuercusMax4 hours ago
          If that's the goal then the US and Israel are doing their best to stop it from happening. Iran is responding to provocations. Stop provoking them, no more blown up ships.
          • lenerdenator4 hours ago
            Iran has shown a willingness to do these things through proxies regardless of anyone else before.

            Furthermore, if they want to deal with the US or Israel, then they should target American or Israeli assets. Not third party ships manned by citizens of neutral nations who just want to get to port and remit cash to their families back home.

            • topgrain23 hours ago
              Should they avoid doing that because it’s working really well at putting their opponents in a bad spot, while costing them almost nothing?

              Those ships are bearing goods from (or taking goods to) countries that are hosting US forces attacking them. They’re valid targets, and blockading their shipping… I mean, the US does that to countries that haven’t even helped attack us, seems insane to suggest it’s somehow a foul to do that to countries that are helping attack you.

            • QuercusMax3 hours ago
              Running a blockade is a risky proposition; it's not something that happens by accident.

              A lot of these "neutral" countries either host US military bases, US companies, or are otherwise aligned generally with the US.

    • asdff3 hours ago
      People assumed Russia would press with their full might and that has just yet to ever happen. Why don't they carpet bomb all of the ukraine? Why not fire off a littany of missiles? Why not conscript the bulk of their manpower reserves and actually invade in earnest?

      Everyone assumed the war would be over in two weeks, because it really could have ended in two weeks if russia went full throttle early on. But there must be some factors at play that prevent total war from seeming like an attractive option. Maybe fear of equal reprisal. And in the end you get this slog of a war, with an unchanging front line and various headlines every few weeks of some one off piece of infrastructure or industry being destroyed, and little coming after that. I'm not sure what these factors are exactly, but clearly they exist to quiet the beast and have this slow drip war be the optimal outcome compared to alternatives. Maybe the threat of NATO taking control of the war is what keeps it at its current slow pace.

      • Animats2 hours ago
        - Why don't they carpet bomb all of the Ukraine?

        Russia does not have anywhere near enough aircraft to do that. If they tried, they'd lose more of their air force.[1] Russia does not have much of an aircraft industry left. For one thing, much of the USSR's aircraft industry was in Ukraine.

        - Why not fire off a litany of missiles?

        Nuclear? Russia so far has not wanted to cross that threshold and start WWIII. Non-nuclear, they have to build them.

        - Why not conscript the bulk of their manpower reserves and actually invade in earnest?

        Because Russia is running out of manpower reserves. The draft in Russia now covers all males from 18 to 30. In that age range, men can no longer leave Russia. Russia has 1.4 million military casualties so far, with about 400,000 deaths. Currently, the casualty rate is higher than the new recruit rate. Conscript soldiers serve for one year, but there is heavy pressure to sign up as a "volunteer" with no time limit. The Russian tradition of throwing recruits into battle with a huge casualty rate continues. It worked in WWII, but cost 20 million lives. It hasn't been working in Ukraine. The Ukrainian claim is that the survival time for a new soldier on the Russian front lines is four hours. This is probably exaggerated.

        It was policy for a while that the draft wasn't enforced too strictly in Moscow and St. Petersburg. This was to avoid generating political opposition to the war. That seems to be over.

        [1] https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/putin-cant-fix-this-the-...

      • creato2 hours ago
        Other than nukes, Russia does not have significant spare capacity. They use missiles and drones with months of their production. They fly bomber aircraft as close to the front as they can. They've burned through most of their cold war era stockpiles of equipment. 0.5-1% of their entire population is a casualty of this war (so probably closer to 5% of their working age men).
      • nradov2 hours ago
        Russia has no ability to carpet bomb anyone anymore. They have only a handful of operational strategic bombers left and little or no capability to manufacture new ones. Much of the USSR's old heavy aircraft supply chain was in Ukraine. So Russia is unwilling to risk their aircraft in defended airspace because they need to preserve them as part of their strategic nuclear deterrent triad.
      • lostlogin2 hours ago
        > People assumed Russia would press with their full might and that has just yet to ever happen

        I don’t think you are appreciating how large the Ukraine is, how deficient the Russian military is and how depleted its population has become.

        Look at the losses they are taking, with military casualties having passed a million. Their military spending is a huge portion of GDP (as mush as 50%, see wiki). Their parking lots of mothballed tanks are depleted and their refineries smashed. Russia is teetering and may not be able to sustain this much longer.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_Russia

      • KittenInABox3 hours ago
        My understanding is that Russia's "full throttle" isn't actually as strong as they had posed...
        • asdff2 hours ago
          It has to be stronger than Israel just from scale, and that seems plenty strong enough to level a modern city in a few days or weeks.
          • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
            Ukraine has a proper army with proper weapons and strong foreign support; Gaza only has a bunch of militias with outdated arms and makeshift rockets. Obviously, fighting Gaza is easier than fighting Ukraine.
          • greedo2 hours ago
            Scale doesn't really matter with an air force. The IAF is much, much stronger and more competent than the Russian Air Force. Plus, the Israelis are bombing defenseless cities (in Lebanon), and getting a lot of help from the US (in Iran).
            • lostloginan hour ago
              > the Israelis are bombing defenseless cities (in Lebanon), and getting a lot of help from the US (in Iran).

              No need for the brackets.

              The Israelis also bombed defenceless Gaza and had a lot of help from the US with that.

          • creato2 hours ago
            Israel can fly aircraft over their adversaries at will. Russia can't.
            • morkalork39 minutes ago
              What a difference having proper 5th generation planes makes
          • lostloginan hour ago
            > that seems plenty strong enough to level a modern city in a few days or weeks

            How would they do this?

            The don’t control the sky or the ground. It’s down to ballistic missiles and drones. Many of these can be shot down.

          • mrguyoramaan hour ago
            To be frank, you seem to have a cartoon's idea of war.

            US is the only country that maybe has a capability to carpet bomb someone to rubble. Russia has always preferred to do it with Artillery anyway, which they have done to many many Ukrainian cities.

            A prolonged strategic bombing campaign that can "Wipe a city off a map" takes weeks, hundreds of bombers, and tens of thousands of tons of explosive, and either air supremacy to protect your bombers (not sufficient against a target with SAMs) or the ability to build hundreds of those bombers fresh.

            Literally nobody can do that anymore. America can maybe do that once or twice. Only 60ish B52s even remain.

    • mcphage7 hours ago
      > Iran will probably in a better place than they are now, strategically speaking

      How could that be? Are they getting an influx of $300 billion dollars or something?

      • xp847 hours ago
        It’s an odd declaration and maybe based on Rus/Ukraine. But Ukraine is doing better now than in the first week of the “Special Military Operation” due to having a lot of rich allies who have (in fits and starts) given them a lot of money and gear, and due to a Russia which has stretched its military and economy to the breaking point.

        By contrast, Iran’s only allies are its terrorist affiliates in Lebanon, Gaza, and the Houthis. Those guys can’t do much to help. China and Russia (see above though) are willing to do business with them but don’t really give a crap about Iran surviving.

        Anyway, the US and Israel can keep degrading Iran’s military and “government” by dropping bombs (or better, drones) on them every week for a decade and it won’t really be a big deal for the former. Iran though will not be better off for it, I’m pretty confident. (Other than their surviving religious fanatics will be even more suicidally devout.)

        • Someone4 hours ago
          > Anyway, the US and Israel can keep degrading Iran’s military and “government” by dropping bombs (or better, drones) on them every week for a decade and it won’t really be a big deal for the former.

          Can they? https://www.csis.org/analysis/last-rounds-status-key-munitio... says

          “In the 39 days of the air and missile campaign before the ceasefire, U.S. forces heavily used the seven munitions in Table 1. For four of them, the United States may have expended more than half of the prewar inventory”

          According to that article, they expended ballpark a third of their inventory of expensive weapons systems such as Patriots or Tomahawk missiles, each with a production lead time of at least 3 years.

          If so, they would run out of those expensive weapons in three more months.

        • O3marchnative3 hours ago
          Have you taken a look at Iran's targeting capabilities and the assets they were able to destroy? More importantly, have you considered who facilitated those targeting capabilities?

          https://www.hudson.org/national-security-defense/war-above-w...

        • stevenwoo6 hours ago
          It's sarcasm, a bit, because the last published deal revealed the USA was going to pay Iran 300 billion to end the shooting war that Israel and the USA started. https://www.npr.org/2026/06/23/nx-s1-5866577/iran-trump-deal...
        • pjc507 hours ago
          I believe the assessment is based on the desire of the US to offer concessions (such as sanctions withdrawal) in order to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. Which will be painful in the medium term, but less so in the long run as oil is diverted around it.
        • general14656 hours ago
          > Anyway, the US and Israel can keep degrading Iran’s military and “government” by dropping bombs (or better, drones) on them every week for a decade and it won’t really be a big deal for the former.

          I disagree. The huge problem here is that USAF is showing how they are doing things over and over again. For China it is a treasure trove of data and ideal place for testing of their gear to detect and later shoot down US stealth aircraft which USA is constantly threating to use against China.

      • jandrese7 hours ago
        They'll be getting the Hormuz toll money.
    • stronglikedan7 hours ago
      lol, no. no comparison between those wars
    • kcatskcolbdi7 hours ago
      It's hard to imagine them in a better place; they seem to have us by the balls already.
    • anjel6 hours ago
      History reveals that every war is won by the nation with superior industrial capacity.
  • marking-time18 minutes ago
    I just finished listening to a series of podcasts on Crusades I-IV. It is interesting to note that logistics were as important then as they are today. Many battles were influenced by the simple things like food and water availability. In the IV Crusade, financial logistics became one of the key factors.

    As for the article, when the institution that trains future generals says we have a problem then we should _listen_.

  • a34729t3 hours ago
    China has missed their window of opportunity, sadly.

    For the next big war, the US will simply not even need to air or sea to deliver weapons or supplies (see SpaceX's StarFall, of which 60x4 should fit into Starship). Per my calculations, the JDAM version of this will be cheaper than flying planes (and pilots) to drop bombs or cruise missiles.

    For small(er) wars, cheap drones break everything as they can destroy your backfield. Unless of course you happen to move your backfield into orbit and beyond.

    • manvillejan hour ago
      I just don't see how the fuel costs of getting things up to space winning out unless production is located up there. especially since rocket launches tend to be extremely static.

      More dangerously, I think that would inevitably lead to space being the battlefield. Since that area doesn't need any more shrapnel orbiting at 17,500 mph; it seems an idea best left to the drawing board. The cleanup required will make clearing mine fields seem like dusting the living room.

      • ceejayoz39 minutes ago
        > I just don't see how the fuel costs of getting things up to space winning out unless production is located up there.

        Starship's in theory targeting something like a million bucks in fuel for a launch. For a military that spends more than that on individual missiles, that's peanuts.

      • tofuahdude37 minutes ago
        The prospect of cleanup duty has never stopped anyone at war. Fields of landmines maiming children for decades, unexploded ordinance in cities, etc etc.

        Near earth orbit will be a field of debris until gravity takes over.

    • throwawayqqq11an hour ago
      Have you considered the cost difference of drone re-entry vs commercial container logistics?

      There are many options to deliver drones to a location and i dont think from orbit is the most viable one, let alone moving any production there.

    • lostloginan hour ago
      The next war is going to need the US to do something pretty spectacular if it’s going to reclaim the ground it’s lost in the Iran war.

      The situation there is an utter joke, and shows no sign of wrapping up any time soon.

    • pphysch2 hours ago
      Opportunity for what?
    • greekrich922 hours ago
      Not sure if you've noticed, but none of that SpaceX stuff is going to happen
      • marcusverus2 hours ago
        L̶a̶u̶n̶c̶h̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶d̶e̶d̶

        ̶F̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶.̶ ̶

        ̶F̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶e̶c̶o̶n̶o̶m̶i̶c̶a̶l̶.̶ ̶

        ̶M̶e̶g̶a̶c̶o̶n̶s̶t̶a̶l̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶L̶E̶O̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶i̶p̶e̶ ̶d̶r̶e̶a̶m̶.̶ ̶

        ̶S̶t̶a̶r̶s̶h̶i̶p̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶l̶y̶.̶ ̶

        Starfall will never happen!

        • shimman2 hours ago
          No serious really argued that; what they argued is that a Mars colony is impractical, interplanetary travel as a fantasy, and data centers in space as delusional.
          • Robotbeat2 hours ago
            Having followed SpaceX since the beginning, this is not true at all. People doubted every single step. Industry experts did.
  • haunter7 hours ago
    > If history provides the theory, the ongoing war in Ukraine offers a brutal contemporary lesson: Modern armies collapse when they run out of logistics, not when they run out of weapons.

    Is this really a new lesson? I thought that was common knowlegede since WW2 especially with the events of the Eastern Front.

    • hvs7 hours ago
      That was discussed in the article.
    • realusername7 hours ago
      "Amateurs discuss tactics, professionals discuss logistics"

      Napoleon

      • tristramb7 hours ago
        He learnt the hard way (as did all those who followed him into Russia)
        • orthoxerox6 hours ago
          Napoleon planned his Russian campaign extensively: he had supply hubs set up all over the Duchy of Warsaw, with feeder routers from Prussia keeping them full.

          What he didn't anticipate was how bad the roads in Russia would be and how long the Russian army would retreat along them. You can't resupply an army that is marching on a narrow dirt road through a forest because it's blocking its own supply lines.

          • lostloginan hour ago
            If you’re going to Russia for the winter, have somewhere to stay and take a jacket. Napoleon screwed up the logistics with all his assumptions.
            • orthoxerox13 minutes ago
              Napoleon lost the bulk of his army in the summer.
  • yborg5 hours ago
    I wonder when the use of 'culminate', v. "reach a climax or point of highest development" for "cease to be effective" became the standard in military-related writing when trying to sound smart. The original usage in the specific context of an army's advance or offensive coming to an end made some sense but it's now used as basically a wordy synonym for "stops" in any context.
    • coffeecantcodean hour ago
      Not to mention the closing paragraph of the article essentially says the same thing 8 times - for such a well written paper the closing paragraph was a real disappointment in my eyes. Overall though, good write up.
    • m_dupontan hour ago
      I'm also loving their phrase "on a nonlinear battlefield"

      ... not sure what a linear battlefield would be

      • wilkommen25 minutes ago
        I think a linear battlefield is one in which there is a "front line", which was a given for prior wars but maybe not as much anymore. Future wars might see adversarial forces mixed among each other spatially more than in the past.
  • wilkommen27 minutes ago
    The arguments in this article seem very similar in spirit to the ones mad in "The Sling and the Stone" book by Thomas X. Hammes.
  • diddidan hour ago
    This has been true for as long as war has been a thing. The Army logistics won’t break, it’ll adapt, because that’s what war machines do. What’s good today isn’t good tomorrow. It’s a nice piece but nothing Sun Tzu or a good game of hearts of iron couldn’t teach you.
  • thrownawaysz6 hours ago
    >the difficulty of transporting extremely heavy 155-millimeter artillery shells and guided multiple-launch rocket system pods across contested oceans and degraded theater road networks

    I found it interesting that not even this article thinks about it that the US mainland ever can be attacked

    • LinuxAmbulance4 hours ago
      > I found it interesting that not even this article thinks about it that the US mainland ever can be attacked

      It can be, but it would be very, very difficult for anything short of lobbing ICBMs around. You'd have to have a fleet of ships that would be detected as soon as they set sail, and then protect that fleet for the entire voyage, which would also be extremely difficult for any adversary.

      Getting boots on US soil would be even tougher.

      Drones are an option, but cross-ocean ones are not an easy problem to solve.

      • AlexCoventry3 hours ago
        According to Zelensky, there will be drones capable of traversing tens of thousands of kilometers within a couple of years. The US mainland is definitely at risk of drone attack in the near-medium term, IMO.

        > One, two, three years — drones will strike ten, twenty thousand kilometers. With reactive engines, they will be very cheap -- Zelensky

        https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/2042105223989035429

        • siriusastrebe2 hours ago
          I did some digging, reaction engines are jet engines that can transition into a rocket propelled mode. It could enable a single stage to orbit plane.

          Within the atmosphere the jet engine will burn atmospheric oxygen which would theoretically reduce the amount of fuel needed to reach a certain delta-V. Once outside of the atmosphere the engine switches to a rocket propelled mode, usually by injecting stored oxygen into the engine in addition to jet fuel.

          So far there hasn't been a working prototype of a reaction engine. A British company SABRE closed down due to lack of funding but it did prove several pieces of the reactive engine design could work independently.

        • lostloginan hour ago
          The idea that attacks on the US come from afar is an assumption too.

          It doesn’t seem impossible that some radical group of attacks the US from within.

          And that’s quite apart from the US threats to attack its neighbours.

        • mrguyoramaan hour ago
          A drone capable of traveling tens of thousands of kilometers to its target is called a cruise missile.

          They are not cheap.

          What "reactive engine" is Zelensky talking about?

        • margalabargalaan hour ago
          North Korea and Iran both have orbital launch vehicles. If you can put something in orbit, that's most of the way to putting something in Times Square or DC.

          This hasn't happened yet. And much easier, more deniable attacks like car bombings of these places also hasn't happened to any real degree.

          The mass shootings in the US are mostly performed by Americans, usually right-wing Americans, and the percentage performed by foreigners is close to zero. Looking forward to some right wing American replying linking to individual examples of foreigners doing mass shootings as though that disproves the point.

      • kylehotchkiss3 hours ago
        For better and for worse our country is armed to the teeth with civilians who would take great offense to a foreign military invasion
  • briandw4 hours ago
    These systems are antifragile. Just like what was exposed by the supply chain shock during covid. You optimize like crazy to squeeze every bit of efficiency (I know it's the military, so this is relative) out of a system when times are good / easy. Then the game changes a little and the entire thing comes apart. The US military has been operating in an uncontested space for far too long and there is major weakness in all the unprotected assets away from the front. Think about all the aircraft that are unprotected and near civilians. A project spiderweb in the US would be relatively easy and devastating. The US military needs to get their butt in gear and take action to close those vulnerabilities.
  • kens2 hours ago
    Serious question: does Figure 1 in the article make sense to anyone? If you understand the symbols, do you look at the diagram and it's clear how logistics works?
  • bix63 hours ago
    Does the US have any initiatives to fix this? Like I keep hearing about reshoring manufacturing but is there actually a concerted effort? It seems like we get a major plant announcement every now and then for some behemoth but is there anything targeted for the SMB or startup space?
    • malfist3 hours ago
      We had a bill for that, the build back better bill, but it's been gutted.
    • catigula3 hours ago
      Tariffs and import controls. Why do you think that BYD is banned from the US?
  • mcswell6 hours ago
    I was puzzled by this: "...the Army must reinvest in up-armoring its logistical fleet. While adding armor reduces payload capacity and increases fuel consumption, violating the peacetime gospel of efficiency, it is a mandatory trade-off for survival." Where are the armored vehicles now in Ukraine? I don't hear much about them, and I thought that was because drones can find the weaknesses in armor. Instead the emphasis now seems to be on rapidly moving logistical vehicles (and even, for the Russians, on hand-carried "stuff", which seems unlikely to be sustainable). Can someone who knows more than I do comment on this?
    • mpyne4 hours ago
      > Where are the armored vehicles now in Ukraine?

      A more appropriate question might be, where are the armored vehicles now in Russia?

      And as it turns out, they have indeed started adding armor to transport craft, including trains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_armoured_train_Yenisei

      And despite Ukrainian strikes earlier, the Russian bridge over the Kerch strait remains standing and in use for some (not all) logistical supply from Russia to Crimea, and this is due in no small amount due to the amount of 'armoring' that is inherent to the design of a bridge that must cross a strait of that size.

      It's a question of cost more than anything, the more expensive a transport means becomes to build, the more it makes sense to start including armor to force an attack on that transport to itself have to invest a lot more for success.

      • asdff3 hours ago
        But it also stands to ask, why isn't the bridge being constantly targeted? What factors are weighing ukrainian decisionmaking to not simply strike the hell out of this bridge until it falls?

        The strikes ukraine makes in russian territory seem like they are extremely successful but limited in quantity and scope. Why not push that envelope? Some factors must exist that prefer these attacks to be small scale headline makers vs actual large scale destruction.

        • lostlogin2 hours ago
          > Why not push that envelope?

          The US have have been a nightmare for Ukraine, obstructive and unreliable. The European allies have slowly stepped up, but it’s been painful.

          As dependence on the US has reduced, you can see the Ukrainian attacks increase in number, range and audacity.

          Distant targets are getting hit. This week shipping had been hit hard, and the Crimea has taken a lot of damage. Bridges and logistics.

          It’s all happening. Keep an eye on https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/

          It’s a heavily skewed perspective but it if often accurate.

        • ElevenLathe2 hours ago
          > But it also stands to ask, why isn't the bridge being constantly targeted? What factors are weighing ukrainian decisionmaking to not simply strike the hell out of this bridge until it falls?

          This is a spitball, but there are several hundred thousand ethnic Ukrainians in Crimea (along with many more ethnic non-Ukrainians who were previously Ukrainian citizens and have been more-or-less forced to take on Russian citizenship since 2014). Even if the Ukrainian war machine wanted to commit war crimes and/or genocide by completely starving out a city of 2.5 million (unclear if this is true or not, at least to me), they would be -- at least partially -- commiting them against their own people.

      • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
        Holy cow, they've reinvented the armoured trains from the Civil War (late 1910s to early 1920s). In ten years, everything changes, yet in 100 years, nothing does.
    • rawgabbit4 hours ago
      The most common truck used by the US army has no armor. The author is saying they need to be up-armmored despite the additional weight and fuel consumption; that is the "A2".

      https://oshkoshdefense.com/vehicles/medium-tactical-vehicles...

  • wartywhoa237 hours ago
    Many complain on negativism in HN comments, but how in the world can a sane person express anything positive when there's a hell-bent will in conjunction with the "next war"?
    • strictnein7 hours ago
      Are you under the impression that humanity could reach a state where there is never another major war?

      I don't know how one would reach that conclusion, least of all a Major at the nation's leading military educational institute. Nothing "hell-bent" about it.

      • pjc507 hours ago
        People were starting to think that way at the "end of history" period between the Cold War and 9/11. At that time the major powers were not involved in wars, and it was believed that regional ones could be "solved" like Yugoslavia.

        9/11 was a huge success for Bin Laden's goal of restarting a forever war, though.

        • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
          > People were starting to think that way at the "end of history" period between the Cold War and 9/11.

          And between WW1 and WW2. And just before WW1, during the Belle Époque. And probably before that, too.

      • wartywhoa237 hours ago
        Yes, I am. That requires a total reassesment of who the real enemy is, though (hint: psychopaths at power).
        • AlexCoventry2 hours ago
          How do you reliably prevent a clever psychopath who's set their mind to it from gaining power?
        • 2 hours ago
          undefined
    • paulluuk7 hours ago
      I consider myself an optimist, but given that the US has been in 229 wars over it's 249 years since founding, it seems highly unlikely that there wouldn't be a "next war".
      • xp847 hours ago
        There’s nothing peculiar about the US, every country or even tribe has fought many wars.
        • krapp6 hours ago
          Not every country or tribe has been engaged in near continuous violence for over two centuries. That isn't simply "fighting many wars" it's being "existentially bound to warfare." The US is peculiar. It's the nation born of a continent-wide campaign of genocide and plunder. It's the only Western nation that couldn't give up slavery without a civil war. It's the only nation to wage nuclear war, and did so primarily against civilians. It's (for the time being) the world's only superpower, with a military orders of magnitude larger than any other. It put the right to shoot people into its Constitution because its founders wanted a government that normalized regular revolutionary violence as a civic principle.

          The US is weirdly attached to violence and war in ways you only tend to find in modern dictatorships or the empires of old.

          • shipman053 hours ago
            I appreciate this comment, and agree with it in some respects, but some of these specifics are demonstrably false.

            > It's the nation born of a continent-wide campaign of genocide and plunder

            Hard to see how that description doesn't apply to most of the New World. Mexico and Peru were founded on bones of conquered and plundered empires. First Nations in Canada suffered much the same as their counterparts in the US.

            > It's the only Western nation that couldn't give up slavery without a civil war.

            I'm not knowledgeable enough to say this is literally false, but the implication that every other nation gave up slavery willingly and without violence certainly is (see Haiti, for a particularly bloody example)

      • wartywhoa237 hours ago
        My point is that war is the worst thing that humans can engage in, and that the prevailing sentiment is that constant war is an immutable status-quo, and hence it's okay, there's nothing we can do except downvoting those fucking negativists.
        • eth0up6 hours ago
          I think the folks disagreeing with you maybe haven't spent much time in war. Almost certainly some in harsh skirmishes, but I reckon a few Nam, Korea and WWII vets would at least entertain your position on the subject. Pretty much every meta variation of terror has surfaced or has the potential to surface in war. Parts of Ukraine, I think, easily represent hell on Earth, for both sides.

          Edit: I will go a bit further..

          I consider Military the greatest power on Earth. It's sacred, necessary. But those who abuse its power commit, in my view, the greatest of sins. I don't mean the soldiers who fight, but those making the decisions of who they fight. The soldiers do their job, often willingly. And they are the ones who face the consequences. To betray them by corruption is the ultimate betrayal. War is a power that, I think, should be reserved for situations with no other option. Mercenaries not considered.

          • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
            Sorry for the personal question, but are you a military vet? Because from the way you seem to respect soldiers yet abhor war, it sure does seem that you are.
        • abtinf7 hours ago
          War is not nearly the worst thing. Not even in the top 10.
          • wartywhoa237 hours ago
            Oh, really? I'd like to see your top 10.
            • abtinf6 hours ago
              Things that are worse than war, a wildly incomplete list, in no particular order:

              Pogroms; slavery; totalitarian dictatorship; theocracy; intentional mass starvation; mass organ harvesting; mass forced relocation; anarchy; failing to respond to unprovoked violence; restricting freedom instead of defeating the adversary.

              • malcolmgreaves4 hours ago
                What do you think happens in war? Clean fighting from side to side?

                You really think the massive amounts of death and destruction aren’t top ten? What do you think happens to the local population when an invading force arrives? You should go and read about the rape of Nanking. And just read about what happened in wars before the modern era.

                • amanaplanacanal4 hours ago
                  Are you suggesting that the country being invaded should roll over instead of fight? Or is it ok with you for them to prosecute a war?
    • marssaxman4 hours ago
      Your concern is reasonable but misdirected. This article is a publication of the "Modern War Institute", a research organization at West Point, the US Army military academy; it is literally their job to anticipate and plan for the next war, whatever it may happen to be. Deciding whether those plans ought to be used is a completely different responsibility.
    • alansaber7 hours ago
      Comparing the negativity of HN to the inevitability IRL warfare is absolutely hilarious, but I take your point
    • mcphage7 hours ago
      Ukraine didn't want to go to war, but someone else made that choice for them.
  • w10-12 hours ago
    If decisions are actually being made based on analogies instead of analysis, the whole thing is brittle.

    The entire military is predicated on physical possession and distance; that's the main reason Ukraine is a quagmire, Iran was a no-go, and Taiwan has been relatively safe.

    But the next real war for the US is not for territory but to destroy its economic and financial leverage, and destroy its ability to produce those -- by cutting academic research, firing military and intelligence leadership, alienating allies, creating divisions that paralyze democracy, crashing the market, overloading government debt, and binding the Fed, so any response would be muddled and capital and people find opportunity elsewhere. Hence the political enlistment of the poor and unemployed on one hand, and single-minded capitalists on the other, to the same ends.

    The trillions of dollars in AI spending and on the military do nothing to address this, and indeed make it worse by exhausting resources for real solutions.

  • neocodesoftware5 hours ago
    What’s missing - the cost of armoring and weaponizing logistics. Maybe easier to invent a new “startup” logistics than replace the old - especially when he talks about a new autonomous delivery in kill zones.
  • red_admiral6 hours ago
    I would not underestimate the power of a fully mobilized USA. If we really need to, we can do a lot of things that would die to bureaucracy in peacetime - see WWII.
    • marking-time31 minutes ago
      "see WWII" ... I agree, however it is very unfortunate that we have off-shored so much of our industrial capacity.
    • asdff3 hours ago
      I read there was actually significant war exhaustion among the public towards the end, contrary to the patriotism lens this time in history is frequently shown with. There was also a lot of effort to censor what was actually happening in the war from the public, both in terms of press coverage and in screening soldier letters to home. I'm not sure how long the american war machine can actually last. All the post WWII wars are characterized by significant public war exhaustion. And these days you are going to have the other side posting on social media POV videos of american soldiers getting decimated by drones.
      • lostlogin2 hours ago
        What’s more damaging at home? Pictures of your own soldiers dying, or video of the war crimes they are committing?

        Sadly, most wars generate both.

  • awfafawfan hour ago
    LOL IRAN NOT MENTIONED ONCE AND WE SUPPOSED TO TAKE THIS SERIO? THE MAN POINTING OUT THE PROBLEM - HE IS THE PROBLEM.
  • skywhopper2 hours ago
    Not sure we need to wait for the next war. The Iran war has shown some pretty major holes in US military (mostly Navy) logistics already when they aren’t picking a fight with someone who can’t fight back at all.
  • causality07 hours ago
    Change is not going to happen until it's forced. The US military was born as a force required to rebuff existential threats. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the gravitational center of the US military has been the profit margins of defense contractors. What creates the greatest profit? Centralization. Why have a dozen logistics centers when you can have one big one? A trillion dollar fighter program more efficiently absorbs tax dollars than half a dozen specialized vehicle programs from mid-sized companies. Why get congress to pay you to make cheap drones when you can get them to pay you to build $4M Patriot missiles? The MBAs have been riding the US military into the dirt for forty years and I don't think it's going to stop any time soon.
    • kasey_junk7 hours ago
      Isn’t the American military logistics the most decentralized supply chain in the world? Famously (perhaps apocryphal) _every congressional district_ has jobs in the military logistics supply chain.
      • causality07 hours ago
        It would be decentralized if the same things were being built in different places. The way US government manufacturing is set up is more like taking all your organs out, sticking each of them in a separate room, and piping the blood back and forth. Every item has a mile-long supply chain and attacking any part of it shuts the whole thing down.
      • Tostino4 hours ago
        Decentralization doesn't matter at all if you still have single points of failure everywhere.
      • snowpid6 hours ago
        sorry, but the European defence is more decentralised.
    • AlexCoventry2 hours ago
      > Change is not going to happen until it's forced.

      Yes, Pearl Harbor was a known vulnerability, prior to the Japanese attack. The US just wasn't ready to take airpower seriously, at that point.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/k5okm8/why_d...

    • xp847 hours ago
      Why are defense contractors not better investments, then?

      https://youtu.be/C2gIId1dpDs

      • ptmcc4 hours ago
        They are largely congressional jobs programs, not traditional business investments
    • bflesch7 hours ago
      I agree with your point but it's incredibly naive to identify "the MBAs" as scapegoat for this problem.

      We're living in times where an evangelical POTUS dislikes the pope, oligarchs talk about the "antichrist", wars are started with reference to "armageddon" [1] to distract from old money power brokers such as Epstein who has esotheric Kaballah symbols on his office walls [2 @14min42sec].

      The authoritarians are concluding the democratic experiment because they can't hide their heritage any longer. All hail the King.

      [1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/troops-being-told-to-prepare-...

      [2] https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos/never-seen-video-shows-eps...

  • Stevvo7 hours ago
    A limited view of the threat. All very well worrying about keeping your armored brigade combat team fueled up, but that won't be much use when the same weapons that threaten the logistics have destroyed all the Abrams and Bradleys that use the fuel. The Army is still under the delusion that its possible to win a peer conflict, not having learnt the lesson of the cold war there will be no winners in this hypothetical fight.
  • moi23885 hours ago
    “ In a future peer conflict, the US Army will not be granted a six-month, uncontested build-up phase, nor will it operate under friendly skies.”

    Depends how the war starts. Russia? USA somehow attacks? Easily 6 months of buildup in Europe.

    China? Again USA somehow attacks? Again buildup in Australia, Japan, Korea.

    Also US air power is absolutely supreme. I don’t see how they will be fighting in actually contested skies even only 2 months in.

    • siriusastrebe2 hours ago
      Air power relies on fuel and maintenance and runways. It's not necessary to contest the skies if the adversary can destroy the "tail" that supplies the aircraft.

      Stationary bases can easily be targeted globally. The United States has 11 nuclear powered aircraft carriers. We can assume any peer adversary will have knowledge of their approximate whereabouts at all times. It's unclear how they would fare in next generation conflict but we can assume USA's enemies are designing their weapons around taking those carriers down.

      The Air Force is currently upgrading many of its aircraft for longer range operations to increase standoff range

  • 7 hours ago
    undefined
  • hunmernop7 hours ago
    So many armchair quarterbacks
    • AlexCoventry2 hours ago
      There's likely a major world war brewing. Should I not be thinking and forming opinions about that? It's probably going to profoundly affect me.
    • bee_rider6 hours ago
      The “game” has been reinvented recently, there aren’t any non-armchair quarterbacks. Thankfully.
  • lenerdenator4 hours ago
    The entire body of assumptions that the post-Cold War US military was built on is flawed. China didn't democratize, Russia's oligarchs didn't stop using NATO as their boogeyman, and the world isn't willing to turn dictatorships and ultraconservative theocracies into pariah states.

    All of that was assumed to be true. The US would do small police actions here and there with highly-specialized forces. The rules-based system would more-or-less do the rest.

    In the meantime we gutted not only the logistics but the manufacturing base needed to feed that system so that we could "cut costs"... which didn't really happen anyways.

    We should be throwing people in prison over this.

    • amanaplanacanal4 hours ago
      We usually wait for people to break laws and be convicted before we do that.
      • lenerdenator3 hours ago
        I'm sure we could find one. It's the military-industrial complex. It exists to facilitate corruption.
    • Laurel12342 hours ago
      > and the world isn't willing to turn dictatorships and ultraconservative theocracies into pariah states.

      The US has been foremost among western democracies in backing dictatorships, even genocidal ones.

  • preetham_rangu7 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • apawloski7 hours ago
    [dead]
  • HelloMcFly7 hours ago
    This piece seems logical and correct. It also seems entirely AI-generated, but I suppose we've moved into a world where that's just the way content is now.
    • ranger2077 hours ago
      Nah that's just the way defense essays have sounded for the past 20 years or so
      • Noumenon7230 minutes ago
        Yes, I disagree with Pangram on this. It's a very familiar style, so familiar that things that might look like LLM-isms in another context actually give a smooth feeling of fitting the style exactly.
    • BadBadJellyBean7 hours ago
      Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. You gain nothing from pointing out every post that seems LLM generated. Read it or don't but we don't make the world better by accusing each other of using LLMs. The only things we increase are mistrust and frustration.
      • HelloMcFly7 hours ago
        There is no "maybe", it is at least largely AI-generated though I'm sure there's a human involved in building the perspective. Run it through any checker you can find, the outcome is without doubt.

        I don't think I've made a similar comment elsewhere on Hacker News, reddit, etc., (nor do I plan to make a habit of it) but this one stuck out to me. I know this because I did read it just as I've read previous posts such as these on West Point through the years. This just isn't how things used to be written. It's a little more ambiguous out in the wild on any given site/blog/etc.

        > The only things we increase are mistrust and frustration

        Mistrust of what? The human voice behind this thought? Yes, I think that mistrust is valid and earned. Nevertheless, I admit the topic seems pertinent and the argument has merit.

        • BadBadJellyBean5 hours ago
          You can't reliably prove that something is written by an LLM. There are certainly tells but it could be a personal writing style as well. When reading everything with the suspicion that it might be written by an LLM you are at best finding LLM written content and at worst accuse people of using an LLM when they haven't. Nothing is gained by the accusation.

          For me a better way is to find out if I want to read the text or not. Does is there something interesting being said? Is it presented in a way that is at least pleasant enough to read? Is it concise enough? If not I don't read it. Or I skim it.

          Don't misunderstand me. I don't like the overuse LLM generated texts. I write my words on my own. Still there is nothing to be gained from distrusting and calling out authors.

          • HelloMcFly5 hours ago
            I'll admit it cannot be proven to the standard of criminal conviction, but I don't think it's beyond a person's or technology's ability to identify enough "tells" to make a solid conclusion. I can share the things that stick out to me if desired, not that it ultimately constitutes any "proof".

            > Still there is nothing to be gained from distrusting and calling out authors

            Is there nothing? Nothing at all to be gained by resisting the loss of human-created written thought? It may be a futile effort, the tide may be too great, but I guess I'm not just quite so ready to accept the robotic creation of all written content without even a periodic passing comment. It's good for the soul, but I admit I am probably commenting in a community less likely to appreciate or share such a sentiment.

            • BadBadJellyBean4 hours ago
              I don't think you gain anything. The article is written, it will not be rewritten or unwritten because you said it's written by an LLM. I don't see the author not using LLMs in the future if they did use them.

              I don't see how you changed anything by pointing out that you assume that this is written by an LLM. What was gained? I don't really see anything. Do you think anyone is dissuaded from reading the article or from using an LLM the next they write something because you could maybe probably tell that it's probably written by an LLM?

              I think we all lose more than we gain if we do this. We look at each other with mistrust over whether they used an LLM and we point fingers as soon as we see a sign of "wrongdoing". I see artists and writers frustrated about being accused of using ML tools. And the people who just use LLMs and image generation tools mostly just don't care.

              The whole "AI" industry makes everything diffuse. We have to go by vibes if something is made by a human or not and the signs are ever more subtle. We have to be so incredibly careful not to accuse those who are on our side. People who create real human work.

              For me the easiest solution for now is to stop accusing. Unless you know for certain that there was not a real human behind it don't point fingers.

              • HelloMcFly3 hours ago
                > What was gained? I don't really see anything... I don't see how you changed anything...

                From an outcome-orientation, no, nothing has changed. But then why write a letter to my representatives or leave public comments on legislation? That seems to do nothing. Why volunteer to remove amur honeysuckle from an American forest? It will just come back in a few years.

                You are being outcome-oriented, I'm being value-oriented. I think the effort is worth it for the act alone. I believe I retained some dignity by still caring about the distinction between human-created content and machine created content, and for caring enough to still be able to tell the difference. To you it's worth nothing, fine, to me it's worth something. It's not like I'm blanketing comment sections across this or any other site.

                > Unless you know for certain that there was not a real human behind it don't point fingers

                I am telling you, definitively, this article is "penned" primarily if not exclusively by an LLM. You want to hang on to possibility that isn't true? That is your decisions to make!

                I find it interesting that your reaction to my observation seems to make the observation more of a pejorative than my own comments have. You act like I'm accusing someone of a deplorable or shameful act. I don't feel that strongly, but I am nevertheless sad to see the loss of humanity in our writing.

        • nradov6 hours ago
          What is the false positive rate on the checkers?