30 pointsby AndrewDucker2 hours ago14 comments
  • gcanyonan hour ago
    There are two separate issues here: 1. will this work (will the UK stop smoking) 2. is this something the UK government should be doing

    Setting aside 1 and looking at 2, it seems silly to me to point out that other things (alcohol) that cause problems and are not being restricted. You take the wins where you find them, and the government isn't a magical force that can impose its will on the people arbitrarily. This is obviously the government responding to the general sense of the people (perhaps putting its thumb on the scale). The UK doesn't support cigarettes, so the law gets passed. If someone has a public opinion poll there showing less than 50% support for this, I'd love to see it.

    • zbentley29 minutes ago
      > other things (alcohol) that cause problems and are not being restricted

      Alcohol is heavily restricted, though. You can't sell it to minors, younger minors can't drink it in public, you can't sell/buy/make it above a certain proof, you can only resell it from authorized distributors, it is taxes, and so on.

      Sure, banning cigarettes for a specific generation is a much more stringent restriction, but plenty of other restrictions exist.

    • squigzan hour ago
      From the government's perspective, this may (or may not) be silly.

      But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.

      • brador38 minutes ago
        We know the dangers of second hand smoke. Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.
        • hyperpape29 minutes ago
          With all due respect, this is completely wrong.

          There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real.

          Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved.

          Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.

        • wookmaster4 minutes ago
          If you just ignore alcohol fueled violence, birth defects, deaths from drivers hitting people and cars and the emotional health toll to others from dealing with an alcoholic, sure.
        • Sweepi26 minutes ago
          iirc alcohol is the drug with the highest amount of 3rd party harm due to the high number of people beating their spouse, children and sometimes random strangers under the influence. (+ 3rd party property, car crashes, ...) Keep in mind this was evaluated with current laws, which bans most kinds of indoor-smoking.

          Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.

        • hagbard_c25 minutes ago
          That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly.

          Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.

        • guzfip18 minutes ago
          > Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

          Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.

        • Ylpertnodi35 minutes ago
          You've probably never been out on a Friday night in the Uk.
        • squigz34 minutes ago
          It doesn't? That should be good news for victims of drunk driving, and the families of abusive drunks.
          • afavour30 minutes ago
            There’s still a difference, surely? Drinking alcohol can lead to drunk driving and it can lead to abuse. Thankfully in the vast majority of instances it doesn’t.

            Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.

            • squigz12 minutes ago
              I'm not saying there's no difference. I just don't that difference is as pronounced as some people think, and I don't think it excuses the apparent double standard.

              Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence.

              Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children.

              Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.

    • mytailorisrichan hour ago
      I think it is also part of a trend. More and more control over people's lives, more and more bans.

      Beyond whether something is "bad for you", the key aspect in a free society is whether the State should decide for you (we're entrusted with the right to vote, after all).

      Demolition Man has turned out to be the most accurate prediction of the future regarding those issues among all the 90s movies. Quite interesting.

      • afavour34 minutes ago
        I see smoking as a separate category owing to the existence of second hand smoke. Smoking in a room with other people adversely affects those people. I think government is the correct body to be intervening in that scenario.
        • mytailorisrich30 minutes ago
          That's not a separate category, that's the general principle in a free society: There is a limit to "doing what you want" when it impacts others/imposes on them.

          That's why smoking is already heavily regulated in order to limit and minimise the impact that your choice has on others.

          • LtWorf25 minutes ago
            In sweden it's forbidden to smoke at public transport stops. Nobody cares though so you often have to choose between cancer or getting soaked.
  • walthamstow5 minutes ago
    As a lifelong drugtaker, there's no good reason for nicotine. It's a rubbish drug that offers minimal relief from life's troubles. If you're gonna use drugs, do it properly.
  • alsetmusic35 minutes ago
    As a former smoker (who quit for seven years and regrets taking it up again), and as a present-day vape user, wtf. This is a clear restriction on liberty. It may be stupid that I do it. Just like many stupid decisions (junk food included), it ought to be my right to decide how to live.

    Cut off production so cigarettes are no longer made or imported. Don't block me from them while letting others have them. (Not in UK)

    It'd be kinda funny to see an early 1900s / USA-style mafia / gangster resurgence of bootleggers over cigs in the UK. Much lower stakes, but black markets are a thing.

    Edit: added "while letting others have them"

    • Sweepi24 minutes ago
      >This is a clear restriction on liberty.

      So is banning the sale of leaded gasoline.

  • awakeasleepan hour ago
    Im curious how the industry allowed this. Seems like a tremendous amount of lobbying money would oppose it. There must be real story there, somewhere.
    • walthamstow4 minutes ago
      The cigarette lobbyists are not what they used to be. A pack is £15+, beige green, and has gruesome health warning images. They "let" all that happen.

      Vapes are very popular and I'm sure Phillip Morris and BAT are doing just fine off those.

    • luizfzs23 minutes ago
      The real story may be that even despite heavy lobbying, they are trying to do something that has the potential to benefit the population, with the added benefit of reducing some of the load on health care system caused by this.

      As we know, smoking can cause lots of problems, including for babies if the mother smokes during pregnancy.

    • amriksohata27 minutes ago
      this
  • Sweepi39 minutes ago
    They ban buying cigarettes, not nicotine in general, correct? In that case, I would compare it to making catalytic converters mandatory in new cars in the 1970s.

    You still can pickup nicotine consumption, but with xx % less carcinogens :)

  • bcjdjsndon2 hours ago
    Alcohol costs the UK 4-5x more than smoking. Coincidentally, it's the upper classes drug of choice. Must be a coincidence though
    • pixl9744 minutes ago
      As the US found out, alcohol is very very hard to ban because it is very very easy to make.
    • LtWorfan hour ago
      Sitting in a room with someone drinking doesn't give you cancer.
      • cheeseomlitan hour ago
        Just ban smoking indoors then
        • LtWorf42 minutes ago
          It gives you cancer outdoors too!
  • comrade1234an hour ago
    Are they going to continue selling cigarettes and vapes for people born before that date. I've always found the career as a prohibition smuggler a somewhat romantic notion so at some point I may be able to take it up.
    • tgv36 minutes ago
      Ah yes, smuggling lung cancer. How romantic.
  • joegibbs2 hours ago
    Drinking has been decided to be totally fine though, no need to ban that - probably because it's unfashionable to smoke, and the kind of people who come up with these laws find it uncouth. It will also be ridiculous in a few years when the UK inevitably decides to legalise marijuana - totally fine to smoke a joint, but don't you dare put any of that tobacco in it!
    • adjejmxbdjdnan hour ago
      Drinking doesn’t affect others as direct as smoking does.

      Most of the indoor smoking bans in the U.S. have been based entirely on the fact that second hand smoke affects the employees who are forced to be there.

      Further, drinking has a far deeper cultural resonance, so smoking is clearly the lower hanging fruit.

      And it’s not like the UK has not been taking action against drinking. For example, they’ve imposed minimum alcohol taxes which have been directly linked to lower consumption.

      • joegibbs17 minutes ago
        Nobody was ever attacked on the street by a tobacco-addled stranger at 3 in the morning though. Besides, they're not banning indoor smoking, they're banning it entirely - including vaping and other nicotine products.
      • gcanyonan hour ago
        Drinking affects others much more than smoking does, it's just that it doesn't affect random strangers. In a study of the harms of various substances, alcohol came out on top by a mile for the damage it does to the family and others close to the drinker.
    • pixl9742 minutes ago
      Nicotine is insanely addictive, so ya.

      Alcohol is very difficult to ban as you can take almost any kind of sugar feedstock and turn it into alcohol.

      • tialaramex22 minutes ago
        Right. Booze is straight up naturally occurring, albeit rare. That's why you get drunk monkeys and other wildlife. The animal is like "Actually this moldy fruit is pretty good" - they did absolutely nothing to manufacture booze but here it is.
    • Sweepi35 minutes ago
      Newsflash: Its possible to consume "marijuana" w/o smoking it (just like nicotine!).
      • joegibbs12 minutes ago
        They're not banning smoking in general (which would be impossible anyway, what are they going to do, make it illegal to set something on fire and breathe it in?), they're banning nicotine products. I also really doubt that they will legalise weed and then say "but of course you're not allowed to smoke it, edibles only".
  • subjectsigma21 minutes ago
    Natural consequence of socialized medicine. If I’m paying for your healthcare then I (and by extension the state) get a say in basically every aspect of your life.

    Time to ban alcohol, marijuana, Tylenol, fatty foods, sugar, candles, campfires, fireworks, food coloring, bicycles, playgrounds, cars, cell phones, and anything else that might be harmful

    • mytailorisrich17 minutes ago
      In the UK tobacco is heavily taxed and those taxes bring in more money than the cost on the healthcare service.
  • neogodless31 minutes ago
    You can kind of tell when people think about only themselves or the community when they present arguments for things like smoking and vaccination.

    "I don't want to be controlled" is a perfectly valid argument, and I prefer humans can make choices for themselves and have reasonable autonomy when it does not have a negative affect on others.

    Vaccination and smoking affects people around you. Drinking does too - in certain cases, but much less directly, in most cases. For example, drinking and operating vehicles is already illegal. Drinking and punching someone is already illegal!

    • xienze8 minutes ago
      > I prefer humans can make choices for themselves and have reasonable autonomy when it does not have a negative affect on others.

      How far do you want to take this? Your choice of diet may have a negative effect on others by way of having to pay for additional medical care.

  • amriksohata27 minutes ago
    Kinda pointless the government looking muscular on this when the real issue has moved on anyway to vaping, access to weed etc. The industry lobbying wont come after the govt anyway so no blocks right, as they are getting profit from elsewhere
  • threeptsan hour ago
    next thing you know they'll also ban murder for people born after 2008

    UK becomes the safest country in the world, peace forever

  • pech0rinan hour ago
    This is insanely dumb. Everyone knows that smoking is bad for you. So if people want to do it anyway who cares. I understand the cafe and indoor space bans but not allowing anyone to do it seems stupid. I don’t smoke but UK has really gone off the deep end recently with social controls, what is the point?
    • halfdanan hour ago
      I, a non-smoker, would like to not walk through clouds of smoke.
      • alchemism41 minutes ago
        That's what I say when I breathe car exhaust. Why cannot all combustion engines be removed from society for my health preference?
        • Sweepi38 minutes ago
          That's one of the reasons they are banned from selling new ones starting in 2035.
    • tgv33 minutes ago
      > So [...] who cares.

      I do. I prefer people not to get lung cancer, among other afflications. And for no benefit that I can think of.

      I don't live in the UK, but I say: good to them, and boo to you, for your misanthropic attitude.

      • apetrov17 minutes ago
        i this context, "who cares" means "whose business". and the answer by the western society is that no ones but person in question.

        bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.

        • tgv11 minutes ago
          > i this context, "who cares" means "whose business".

          I don't think so, but if the original poster is around...

          Anyway, it's the government's business to keep their population out of trouble.

          > bucketing ppl by birth year is literally a discrimination.

          Contrary to popular opinion, discrimination isn't illegal or even undesirable per se. In this case, it has a health benefit.

    • tonyedgecombean hour ago
      It's insanely dumb in the same way prohibition was insanely dumb in the US during the twenties.
    • LtWorfan hour ago
      Heroin is bad as well and it's forbidden on account of that.
  • noduerme2 hours ago
    I hate how British people say "agreed" as if it implies "was" and "to". And lots of other things it implies, such as who, when and why.