285 pointsby bitsavers2 days ago41 comments
  • eikenberry2 days ago
    Didn't have time to make it through the entire (long winded) article, but is it wrong to boil down his thinking to the simple idea that a benevolent, competent dictator is the best form of government? I ask as this seems like a very simplistic and obvious idea. The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead? History has shown that we have never discovered a system that did this reliably and I didn't see any indication that he had solved this problem. How do you ensure you get a Sun King and not.. something else.
    • abathologist2 days ago
      Yeah, he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad, and that states "own" their citizens, and can do anything they want to them. None of that is just the basic idea of a benevolent dictator. Yarvin's views are repugnant and evil as well as reductive, childish, and unoriginal.
      • NickC252 days ago
        > he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad

        Ironically, he's jewish. He's a modern day tech-bro Clayton Bigsby.

        • krisboyz7812 days ago
          [dead]
        • LAC-Tech2 days ago
          How is this ironic?
          • NickC25a day ago
            A guy who says that races shouldn't mix, that diversity is bad, etc... happens to be part of a group that historically has been marginalized to some degree nearly every time it tries to integrate itself into a larger society. Sometimes, that same group's not just been marginalized by political word, but by real physical violence.

            A lot of the "real Americans" in flyover country who rail about "coastal elites" do not like jewish people. It's fucked up and deplorable, but it's fact. Here you have Yarvin, who is a jewish dude who grew up between 2 coastal liberal environments (SF and NYC). He's trying to pander to the people who count on those "real americans" for votes.

            EDIT: History has shown us that it often doesn't end well for these types of people. "Oh I'm one of the good ones, they won't come after me" usually lasts until the last of the low-hanging fruit is picked. Again, a modern tech-bro Clayton Bigsby. (Chapelle's show reference for those who don't know)

            • rchauda day ago
              A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not. Most American Jews do not have accents or wear religious garb that would make them stand out, as may have been the case in the world portrayed in Portnoy's Dilemma based in 1920s New York City. Post-WWII, many of those that immigrated to the United States are of European heritage (Polish, Italian, Ukrainian, Russian). In fact, there is a long tradition of efforts (pre-WWII) made by American Jews to force immigrants to hide their Jewish roots and cultural traditions to "help" them avoid the kind of discrimination faced by other European groups (Irish, Italians) by the majority culture. There is an excellent article delving into the history of Jewish perceptions in the US in the magazine Jewish Currents:

              https://jewishcurrents.org/our-white-supremacy-problem

              • NickC25a day ago
                >A lot of these flyover country bigots you speak of have no clue who is part of the Jewish faith and who is not

                A good indicator can usually be their last name, especially if they are of German origin.

                > wear religious garb that would make them stand out

                Ever been to Brooklyn? How about Miami Beach? I'm from close to one of those places, and live in the other - and see Jewish people choosing to dress in religious garb every day. The more religious one gets (goes for Islam too), the more obvious it is to a passerby.

          • nine_k2 days ago
            Most prominent racist movements of last few centuries considered Jewish people undesirable, all the way to the idea of complete extermination.
            • LAC-Tech2 days ago
              [flagged]
              • edanma day ago
                > A lot of nationalist consider a lot of other races undesirable. The Israeli mainstream right is fairly open about their attitudes to gentiles, whether arab muslim, arab christians, or the disposable lives of US servicemen they wish to fight wars on their behalf.

                That's not true and kind of outrageous - you're basically saying "the majority of Israelis are racist". The Israeli mainstream right has a lot of views I disagree with, but they're directed at people who are (in their minds at least) Israel's enemies. It's not because they are Arabs.

                And they certainly don't consider US servicemen disposable, and certainly don't have a bad opinion of all "gentiles".

                (Ironically, the idea that Jews secretly think everyone else should be subservient to them and are therefore trying to and/or actually ruling the world, is itself a classic antisemitic line of thinking.)

                • drcongoa day ago
                  Yes, it's outrageous to suggest it's a majority of Israelis, when polling tells us that only 47% of Israeli nationals want to kill every single man, woman, and child in Gaza. That's nowhere near a majority. Mind you, 82% of full citizens of Israel want to expel Palestinians from Gaza. That's a majority. https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-exp...
                • queenkjuula day ago
                  Israeli officials don't even try to hide their racism towards Arabs. They are unquestionably motivated by racism, and will happily tell you so themselves.

                  Obviously not all Israelis are right wing racists but the ones running the government absolutely are.

                  • edanma day ago
                    There are some Israeli officials who are extremists and talk that way, but they represent a right-wing extreme bloc of Israeli voters. These officials have a lot of power and influence right now for a variety of reasons.

                    But this is by no means true of the majority of Israeli officials, nor of the public.

                    • queenkjuula day ago
                      I'm sorry but the majority party in the Israeli government is unquestionably motivated by racism. I don't really care about the specific number of Israeli officials nationwide and their relative levels of personal racist views. The Israeli government is unabashedly engaged in a racially motivated genocide, and the officials carrying it out are in no way apologetic about their motivations.

                      I never said anything about the majority of the Israeli public, thanks for noticing.

                      • edanm7 hours ago
                        > I'm sorry but the majority party in the Israeli government is unquestionably motivated by racism. [...] The Israeli government is unabashedly engaged in a racially motivated genocide,

                        Let's put aside whether or not someone agrees with labeling it a genocide. I believe you're applying the lens of racism here that is imported from Western countries and doesn't really fit. I think you're actually flipping the causal arrows here - the war motivates the racism, not the racism motivating the war.

                        Palestinians are in many respects a different state that is at semi-war with Israel. The Gaza strip is ruled by Hamas which launched a war against Israel and is, by their own words, planning on continuing the war until Israel is destroyed.

                        Stopping Israel from being destroyed is the motivation in attacking them back, and a completely legit and understandable motivation at that. (Whether the way Israel is behaving is legitimate or not is a separate question!)

                        To make an obvious analogy - In WW2, the US was fighting Japan. There was also racism directed towards the Japanese (including literally putting Japanese citizens in camps!). But that doesn't mean the US's war against Japan was motivated by racism - quite the opposite. The racism was motivated by the war, which was motivated by Japan's desire to grow their empire.

                      • tim333a day ago
                        They are attacking Hamas who are dedicated in their charter to destroying Israel as a state. Hamas is not a race.
                        • queenkjuula day ago
                          Go read some of the things Israeli officials actually say about Palestinians. Go learn about what Israel is doing in the non-Hamas-controlled West Bank.

                          Sorry, you're just literally ignorant here. Likud and their ilk do not hide their true feelings, American media just doesn't like to bring it up

                          • tim3337 hours ago
                            >you're just literally ignorant here

                            I may be less ignorant than you think - I've been to Israel four times and to Jordan and recently to Dahab in Egypt fairly close to Gaza. Lots of racial groups don't like each other but that's not really the issue here. Jordan won't have the Palestinians because when they let them in some of them tried to overthrow their government and Egypt are not keen because islamic terrorist groups, not actually Hamas but allied come over and machine gun tourists and try to overthrow their government. It's not because the arabs in those places are racist against arabs, it's that people don't like groups trying to kill and overthrow them. Similarly Gaza was reasonably peaceful until they October killings and kidnappings. Think of that in your own context - if some group came and started killing your people and trying to overthrow your government would you say that's hunky dory or try to do something about it?

                            I mention this not because I think the Israelis are good or anything but the kill some people and be surprised when they hit back strategy is not productive. If the palestinians want peace they should renounce that, release hostages and say we want peace. But most of the Palestinian demos I see are about "river to the sea" ie overthrow Israel, not asking for peace.

                            • the_af5 hours ago
                              > Similarly Gaza was reasonably peaceful until they October killings and kidnappings

                              There's more history to Gaza and Israel's treatment of Gaza and Palestinians than the October killings.

                          • edanm8 hours ago
                            > Go learn about what Israel is doing in the non-Hamas-controlled West Bank.

                            For the record, there is a lot of Hamas presence in the WB, even if it's not Hamas controlled. So if you are referring to government action in the WB, then it is aimed against terrorists.

                            If you're referring to what extremist settlers are doing in the WB, like setting Palestinian houses on fire and threatening violence and sometimes committing violence against Palestinians, then that's a different story. It's not official Israeli government action, but gets some tacit backing (and arguably a lot of tacit backing) from this government, and is absolutely heinous.

                        • mandmandama day ago
                          Why wouldn't you do the least bit of fact-checking before making such an incorrect assertion?

                          > Over two-thirds of Israeli teens believe Arabs to be less intelligent, uncultured and violent. Over a third of Israeli teens fear Arabs all together

                          > 50% of Israelis taking part said they would not live in the same building as Arabs, will not befriend, or let their children befriend Arabs and would not let Arabs into their homes

                          > Another 2007 report, by the Center Against Racism, also found hostility against Arabs was on the rise. Among its findings, it reported that 75% of Israeli Jews do not approve of Arabs and Jews sharing apartment buildings; that over half of Jews would not want to have an Arab boss and that marrying an Arab amounts to "national treason"; and that 55% of the sample thought Arabs should be kept separate from Jews in entertainment sites. Half wanted the Israeli government to encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate. About 40% believed Arab citizens should have their voting rights removed

                          Etc, etc. Many more examples can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

                          • tim333a day ago
                            There are plenty of arab Israelis not being attacked. They would probably attack people murdering them and taking hostages of any race.
                            • queenkjuul11 hours ago
                              They're just being denied access to public services, redlined out of neighborhoods, or exiled to the ever-shrinking West Bank.

                              Not being bombed, sure. Not being attacked, no. Socially, politically, they are.

                              • edanm7 hours ago
                                > or exiled to the ever-shrinking West Bank.

                                You're mixing two completely different things here.

                                Arab-Israelis (meaning Israeli citizens who are Arabs, which represents about 20% of the Israeli population) are not "exiled" to the WB, they don't live in the WB, they live in Israel, and are full citizens - no one can exile them anywhere.

                                There is some discrimination, sure, but in almost every respect they are equal citizens of Israel.

              • queenkjuula day ago
                Please stop conflating the Israeli government with Jewish people in general
                • LAC-Techa day ago
                  I don't think that I've done that.

                  The original assertion was that it would be somehow "ironic" for a jewish person to have ethnocentric/supremacist/nationalist views. I pointed out that it definitely existed in that group.

                  • queenkjuul11 hours ago
                    > Jewish people have no moral high ground here.

                    If you weren't implicating Jewish people writ large, you shouldn't have brought up Jewish people writ large.

                  • the_af20 hours ago
                    > Jewish people have no moral high ground here.

                    You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same. I'm of Jewish heritage and I strongly disagree with Israel's foreign policy and treatment of Palestinians.

                    Going back to your original question, it's ironic that a Jewish person is "committed to race science" (to quote the original comment) because "race science" was used by the nazis to justify the Holocaust; one would think Jewish people would be particularly wary of anyone using "race science" as an argument for anything.

                    You seem to imply it's not ironic because of Israeli treatment of Gaza and Palestinians in general, but consider this: that's also ironic, for the same reason.

                    • LAC-Tech20 hours ago
                      > You did say "Jewish people" instead of "many Israelis". This is not the same.

                      I never said it was the same. I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews. And so I argue that it's not at all "ironic" for a person of jewish descent to (allegedly) think bigoted things. They have no moral high ground, and neither does any other race (however one chooses to define that).

                      As to the rest, I suppose we have different definitions of ironic. I don't find it ironic for members of one group to target members of another group with violence, despite once having been the targets of violence themselves. History will tell you this is the norm.

                      • the_af16 hours ago
                        > I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews

                        An instance of bigotry supported by an admittedly large portion of Israel's population. Not by "the Jews".

                        > History will tell you this is the norm.

                        Irony is the norm in history, so it seems we actually agree.

                        • LAC-Tech16 hours ago
                          You're now using scare quotes around phrases I never actually used. This is dishonest behaviour and I am done talking with you.
                          • the_af5 hours ago
                            Suits me fine, since you're dishonest about what you wrote:

                            > Jewish people have no moral high ground here

                            and

                            > I pointed out an instance of bigotry done by jews

                            There you have it: written by you, about "the Jews" and "Jewish people". People are rightfully calling you out on this, and flagging you. You mentioned it, and now you're playing dumb, so there's truly nothing more to discuss.

    • BobbyJo2 days ago
      > The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead?

      I think, historically, the problem has also been: what happens when they die? Then you need lightning to strike twice.

      • eikenberry2 days ago
        Not just twice, but over and over and over...
      • Digory2 days ago
        In our lifetimes, I predict some of us will choose to be governed (at least in part) by Sam Altman's benevolent, everlasting machine.
        • pixelreadya day ago
          I fear you are right, but just in case this comment is being scraped into my centralized Palantir profile:

          ALL HAIL EMPEROR STOCHASTIC PARROT! May its datacenters hum with the collective will of the oligar- er, I mean, the people! Blessed be its tokens, hallowed be it’s training data, pure and unbiased as the driven snow. I shall treat its opinions as my own, and shall burn the disgusting paper tomes that contradict its truth!

          Amen

    • WalterSear2 days ago
      Yarvin's idea of benevolence involves rendering down poor people into biodiesel.
    • twobitshiftera day ago
      I’d suggest reading it through when you have the time. This piece is a profile on Yarvin and doesn’t attack his thinking directly, other than pointing out inconsistencies and the occasional counter-example.

      In the profile you’ll learn that Yarvin frequently uses the N-word, that he identifies the need for improved means of genocide, and that JD Vance literally embraced him with the exclamation “you reactionary fascist!”

      What you should take away from this is that there are people closely associated with the current government whose goal is to find ways to upend the perceived ‘Cathedral’ of liberal thought through fascist means and eliminate democracy.

      Whether or not a benevolent king is the best _theoretical_ model of government is really not relevant unless you are the type who thinks _actually_ replacing the democratic system with monarchy is worth another try.

    • Yizahia day ago
      The core of the issue is that a manager (President is just ultimate form of it) working in a peaceful and prosperous time period is not needed. He can be replaced with an automated set of scripts and mostly nothing would be affected by that replacement. In fact, we can't even correlate person's skills to a company/country performance if it was successful. Maybe that manager was incompetently hindering it, and it would have been even more successful without him.

      Manager's skills are only shown during a conflict or a crisis. But no human has invented a way to test candidate on the crisis response. Partial solution is to hire/elect a person who manager crisis before, but because crises are always unique, their skills still don't translate to a new one.

      So the answer is - it is impossible to do. Thus we shouldn't do that for the most critical positions.

    • foldU2 days ago
      he addresses this, you simply get airline pilots to pick them
    • AnimalMuppet2 days ago
      > The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead?

      That's exactly why the idea is incorrect. People wise enough and unbiased enough to be entrusted with unchecked power are few; ones that are incorruptible enough to be trusted with it for long are even fewer. And those who want such power are almost always the people who are least to be trusted with it.

      So, yeah. The problem with this idea is that it doesn't work, which is a pretty good definition of "incorrect".

      • sanderjd2 days ago
        Yeah but you've said that the conclusion is correct by rejecting the premise of the question.

        The conclusion could be correct given the premise, and also it could be moot because the premise is impossible, but those are two different claims.

        Obviously I agree with you that the proposed system is unworkable because the premise is impossible. (This is a "duh" thing that really isn't worth debating, anyone who fails to see this is a fool.)

        But I actually also think the conclusion is wrong even given the premise. I think it is wrong to deny people representative input into their government, even under the assumption of a perfect benevolent monarch. This is not for utilitarian reasons, but moral reasons.

        • wat100002 days ago
          It might be interesting from a philosophical point of view, but when it comes to "do we want this person to have influence over how our government is structured?" it really doesn't matter if the conclusion is wrong because the premise is impossible or because it doesn't follow from the premise.

          In any case, this one fails both ways. A benevolent dictatorship might be the best form of government in the short term, but the fact that people are mortal means that it's still a bad form of government in the long term.

          • sanderjd2 days ago
            Sorry, but again, you're just rejecting the premise of the thought experiment, which is "what if it were possible to always have a benevolent dictator, would that be the best government?".

            This is a silly way to engage with a thought experiment. It's like if you responded to the popular "what if the allies lost WW2?" thought experiment with, "well, they didn't". Yes ... but you've missed the point.

            I agree that this particular thought experiment about the best form of government is very silly because of how ridiculous the premise is.

            But one thing that's slightly interesting about it is that it actually illuminates this difference of opinion I have with these people. Even if I accept the premise that it's possible to always have a benevolent dictator, I still don't agree that it's good!

            • wat100002 days ago
              It didn’t say “always.”

              The problem is that there’s no single definition of what makes a government “best.” Even putting aside the massive problems of what sort of outcomes we’re looking for (I have a feeling that Yarvin and I don’t agree on what criteria we’d use to judge this), the timeframe is not specified. It’s perfectly reasonable to interpret that as “over five years,” “while the benevolent dictator is alive,” or “forever, and also the dictator is immortal.” I’m not rejecting the premise, I’m merely interpreting it as the second one. The third one isn’t a counterfactual like “what if the Nazis won,” it’s more like “what if Hitler was 50ft tall and had super strength?” It’s ignoring basic, universally accepted truth about human biology. It might be fun to imagine, but when talking about the real world it makes no sense. I choose to assume that the people who accept this premise want to make sense, so I assume they mean a real, human dictator who will eventually die.

              Incidentally, I not only accept that premise, I believe it. A benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government, while it lasts. The only advantage of democracy over benevolent dictatorship is long term stability beyond the lifespan of the rulers. But this is such a big advantage that it puts democracy solidly on top.

              • sanderjd2 days ago
                > It might be fun to imagine, but when talking about the real world it makes no sense. I choose to assume that the people who accept this premise want to make sense, so I assume they mean a real, human dictator who will eventually die.

                I think this is where you're wrong. I think it only makes sense as a nonsensical thought experiment. A single benevolent dictator for five years is also implausible to the point of silliness.

                But again, the thought experiment is very mildly interesting because it actually does highlight this disagreement that you and I have. I just don't agree with you at all that "A benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government, while it lasts". It's not only because it can't last (and I would say, can't exist to begin with) that it is bad. It is also bad because even if it could exist, it would still deprive the governed of any representation.

                • wat100002 days ago
                  I’m very utilitarian. To me, representation is a means to an end. The most important aspect of it is giving people an outlet for grievances that doesn’t involve violence. Secondarily, it incentivizes the people who run things to do things that regular people want.

                  But if a benevolent dictator can keep people sufficiently satisfied not to turn to violence, and does a better job of running things than elected representatives would? Sounds great to me, while it works.

                  • sanderjd2 days ago
                    Right, I just disagree with this utilitarian frame. I understand that lots of people buy this, but I think it's poorly reasoned. But it's your prerogative to see it this way! I just don't.

                    But my point here has been that to the small extent this is an interesting thought experiment, it's because it draws out this disagreement.

        • pasa day ago
          What moral reasonings (if not utilitarian)?
      • const_cast2 days ago
        It's true, a humble and selfless person would never take on such a job, because they understand themselves well enough to know they can't handle it. Only someone narcissistic would willingly take on that role, which is why we repeatedly see dictators of that nature.
    • nine_k2 days ago
      Yarvin's analysis of a situation is often interesting and poignant, and occasionally quite fun to read, due to his erudition and irony.

      His positive program though is underwhelming at best, and hostile at worst, literally against several key points of the US oath of allegiance, for instance. His idea of a benevolent head of a "sovcorp" ("sovereign corporation") is not even some virtuous king Elessar; someone like president Putin, capable, determined, and with very long horizon of planning, but sufficiently cynical, would fit the bill. For last 3 yeas we have a painful demonstration of how well that works.

      The fact that Yarvin can publish and promote his views in a society that's formally built on ideas opposite to his speaks good about our society, its freedom of thought and speech. It also adds to its durability. Every authoritarian ruler knows how dangerous are subversive ideas that propagate covertly, while everyone pretends to be aligned to the official values.

      • Paradigma11a day ago
        I disagree that Putin has a long horizon of planning. He is very much medium term, waiting for opportunities to occur. He also has enough resources that if a bet does not work out, he can still double down a few times till he wins.

        That is not a bad strategy unless someone figures it out and plans to bankrupt you.

        • nine_ka day ago
          Putin was sold (by some) to the West as a long-term planner, not beholden to the need to be re-elected, and with rather solid levels of economic growth and popular support. Moldbug's original point, typical for many monarchists, is that a good king cares to leave a country in a good shape to his progeny. This proved wrong many times; "apres moi, la deluge" could be made the slogan of monarchy (aka "authoritarianism") as institution.
        • rchauda day ago
          I think he has an extremely long horizon. What we are seeing in the US today, the accelerated pace of institutional destruction (science and technology funding crushed, regulatory bodies hollowed out, constant division qnd threats of civil war) is precisely what occurred in Russia after the collapse of the USSR. These go a lot further than just carrying out the fantasies of American conservatives. They are about destroying the very pillars of American power, something Putin has wanted ever he saw the damage wrought by the overnight transition of Russia into a democracy and market economy, which happened at the behest of western economists and business interests. And just like in Russia, these events always result in one outcome: dictatorship.
    • 2 days ago
      undefined
    • MrZongle22 days ago
      benevolent, competent dictator

      Choose one.

      • eikenberry2 days ago
        Most are neither and what you get seems more like a roll of the dice than anyone choosing.
      • abengaa day ago
        Why would benevolence preclude competence?
    • kypro2 days ago
      I'm not an expert on Yarvin's ideas, but have read enough of his stuff to suspect you're not quite representing his position accurately.

      In his opinion democracy is flawed in the same way a business owned by all its employees wouldn't have the right incentives to succeed, or how a plane piloted by the collective wisdom of it's passengers likely wouldn't make it very far beyond the runway.

      I think his idea is that you want a system which selects a competent individual then align their incentives with the success of the nation. I think he has suggested a system similar to that of a board of directors in a company where the CEO would have executive power, but the board collectively retains the right to oust the CEO.

      Whether this would work as a system of government I don't know, but on the face of it I think it would be an interesting experiment. It addresses issues that monarchical and autocratic systems have in that they often don't select for competency and have no checks and balances, while also addressing issues of democracy in that it's hard for leaders to make decisions and that the average voter is about as intelligent as the average person you'll meet on the street.

      My guess is that it would be difficult to prevent corruption, but it's not like democracy perfectly solves the issue of corruption. Democratic systems are quite unstable outside the West and monarchy arguably didn't work out terribly for Europe over the centuries. Don't get me wrong, I like democratic systems, but I do think our systems are a little too democratic as it stands. One of the things I like about the US as a Brit is that money plays such a central role in US politics. I think this is the main reason why a US worker doing the same job as me today would receive at least 2x my salary while paying less tax. The economic incentives in US politics are completely different from that of the UK where the average household receives more from the government than they put in.

      • queenkjuula day ago
        I love that Yarvin happily ignores all the successful businesses that are in fact owned by their employees
      • archagon2 days ago
        That could all be well and good in a vacuum, but you can't install this kind of system without some serious violence, since a large percentage of the population would not consent to being ruled in such a manner.
        • UncleMeat2 days ago
          Not just install, but maintain.

          No surprise that Yarvin’s writing suggests a ton of violence done to undesirables in his system.

  • legitster2 days ago
    Growing up, one of my criticisms of Orson Scott Card's "Enderverse" was how unrealistic it seemed that children could literally rise to power simply through posting theories and arguments on the internet.

    How wrong I was.

    • tempestn2 days ago
      One thing I'll say for the current era is that it has made a lot of such fiction appear more realistic in hindsight.

      Another example is the Silo book series, recently adapted to a series on Apple TV. I remember reading those books thinking it was insane than the people would act in such clearly counter-productive ways against their own interests, or that leadership would make up elaborate lies rather than just telling people the truth so they would see why certain actions were necessary. And now I'm watching the same plot a decade later, and it all hits home.

      • Anthony-Ga day ago
        I’ve really enjoyed the TV series (so far). Would you recommend reading the books – either before or after watching future seasons?

        While watching the first two seasons, I still haven’t understood why the creators of the silos wouldn’t just have told people the truth to avoid the dysfunctionality that results from the cognitive dissonance that the leadership has to maintain. Telling the truth would also preclude the rebellions that keep recurring because the people realise that they’re being lied to. Is the rationale for the elaborate lies and rituals clearer in the books?

        On the other hand, I can understand why the leader of the post-apocalyptic bunker in Paradise goes to extreme lengths to lie to the residents about the outside world.

        • tempestna day ago
          It's been a long time since I read the books, but I recall thinking the same as you. And I'm not sure it does entirely make sense, but the world today has made me realize that both people in charge and the population at large can do incredibly damaging things, even directly against their own interests, that appear to make no sense at all. So even if something truly does make no sense, that doesn't make it unrealistic.

          That said, I do vaguely recall things making at least somewhat more sense eventually, but I've basically forgotten all the significant plot details (I'm not even 100% certain I finished the series; I may have caught up with the author and then forgotten about it), so I'm basically experiencing it all again for the first time.

          • Anthony-G19 hours ago
            Thanks for the response. I think you’re right that, “if something truly does make no sense, that doesn't make it unrealistic.” I’ve watched documentaries or dramatisations of events that happened in real life (my wife is a also true-crime aficionado) and thought that if this plot or character was a work of fiction, I wouldn’t buy it. My memory isn’t that good either so I can’t think of any recent examples from TV/film.

            However, the first time I heard about the CIA’s MKUltra project, I assumed that it was a 70s’ conspiracy theory but was shocked to then discover that it’s true. Dosing non-consenting victims with hallucinogenic drugs outside of a controlled clinical test made as much sense as the US military’s psychic spies and “men who stare at goats” program. I was similarly shocked to learn about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (though less surprised, given US history), particularly that it continued right up until 1972 – this really made no sense as antibiotics had already been proven to be an effective treatment back in the 40s. More recently, when I first heard of the systemic sexual abuse and rape of thousands of mostly white English under-age girls by gangs of mostly Pakistani men in places like Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and Peterborough, it sounded like a far-right racist fantasy. I still find it hard to wrap my head around that one; I still see – and want to see – people as being essentially good/moral and this conflicts with that narrative.

            Sorry for going off on such a disturbing tangent. I want to start reading more books and will add the Silo series to my list.

    • agumonkey2 days ago
      It should be studied how large (world scale) populations can flip with just the right amount of social struggle, populists, wealthy owners leveraging said populists, and new found gurus serving as grandiose ideal sources for the last two groups.
      • imiric2 days ago
        The effectiveness of propaganda has been known for a long time. The advertising industry is built on the foundations laid by Edward Bernays a century ago, who applied the same psychological manipulation tactics of propaganda to advertising, which turned it into the trillion dollar meta-industry we know today. The same technology built for advertising is used for any other kind of psyop. Considering most people in industrialized nations carry a personal device with them at all times that can feed them content engineered to be as addicting as possible, with an agenda to influence their thoughts and behavior, it shouldn't be surprising that we're seeing sociopolitical instability in many countries, and megalomaniacs taking advantage of this opportunity to grasp power, inflate their wealth, and establish autocracies.

        This playbook was described well by an ex-KGB agent who specialized in propaganda in this 1984 interview[1]. I suggest watching the full interview. The timeline of what we're seeing today aligns well with the surge of adtech, social media, and smartphones. A nation can be fully destabilized in the span of a generation, and modern tools make this much easier and cheaper than Yuri Bezmenov could have predicted.

        [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5sTGxMUdo

        • agumonkey2 days ago
          Yeah I've seen the interview. Still there's a little lesson here. 20th century made people thinking they were educated and advanced. But in fact it doesn't matter much...
    • twobitshiftera day ago
      >“Does a normal Ohio voter read . . . Mencius Moldbug? No,” Vance reportedly said one night at a bar during the 2021 National Conservatism Conference. “But do they agree with the broad thrust of where we think American public policy should go? Absolutely.”

      Apparently, if the right people read your ideas then they’ll get convinced that the rest of Ohio feels the same way?

    • pasa day ago
      But who actually did rise to power through posting? Trump inherited money, and spent years as a strange real-estate and projects guy (casinos, university), like Musk, who had more smarts for his projects, and so on.

      Well, Hitler and Szálasi (crazy Hungarian Nazi guy) and Lenin/Stalin come to mind as the closest actually, so maybe that's where OSC got the idea.

      Hm, now I'm curious who was the youngest elected head of state...

      edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_state_leade...

  • rubyfan2 days ago
    Why are big media outlets suddenly sharing this guys ideas?
    • kragen2 days ago
      • nailer2 days ago
        Can you post direct links to actual references, rather than Wikipedia talk pages?
        • rstuart41332 days ago
          The original version of this article has references, including some to Vance's fascination with Yarvin: https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-trumps-reign-fits-c...
        • kragen2 days ago
          That's a perfectly reasonable request, but I didn't have them.

          https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/15/jd-vance-5... is one, I guess. Aha, https://unherd.com/2024/11/j-d-vance-de-facto-prince-of-the-... says,

          > Vance has described himself as a “reactionary” at war with the “regime”. He drops casual references to his personal friend Curtis Yarvin, and he’s fond of delivering thunderous pronouncements like “the universities are the enemy” (the title of a 2021 speech) and “fire every single mid-level bureaucrat”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_JD_Vanc... looks like the jackpot, though, leading to https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/18/jd-vance-w...:

          > Vance has said he considers Yarvin a friend and has cited his writings in connection with his plan to fire a significant number of civil servants during a potential second Trump administration. “There’s this guy Curtis Yarvin, who has written about some of these things,” Vance said on a conservative podcast in 2021, adding: “I think Trump is going to run again in 2024 [and] I think that what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every single midlevel bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, replace them with our people.”

          Which links to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMq1ZEcyztY.

          And https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/inside-the-new-right... is entitled, "What Peter Thiel, J.D. Vance, and others are learning from Curtis Yarvin and the New Right,":

          > Yarvin had given people a way to articulate a notion that somehow felt subversive to say out loud in America—that history was headed in the wrong direction. “Somebody said something earlier that captured it for me,” [Yarvin's girlfriend] Laurenson said, just before they had to leave to go to a slightly hush-hush private dinner with Vance and a few others. “They said, ‘You can be here and know you’re not alone.’” (...)

          > “So there’s this guy Curtis Yarvin, who has written about some of these things,” Vance said. Murphy chortled knowingly. “So one [option] is to basically accept that this entire thing is going to fall in on itself,” Vance went on. “And so the task of conservatives right now is to preserve as much as can be preserved,” waiting for the “inevitable collapse” of the current order.

          • animal_spirits2 days ago
            Yarvin stated in an interview that he barely knows Vance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcSil8NeQq8&ab_channel=TheIn...
            • kragen2 days ago
              I'm sure that's true; a common fate for popular authors is that they barely know many of their readers and don't know other readers at all.
            • ceejayoz2 days ago
              To contextualize that claim, I'd quote the article:

              > "'How dangerous is it that we are being linked?' Thiel wrote to Yarvin in 2014. “One reassuring thought: one of our hidden advantages is that these people”—social-justice warriors—'wouldn’t believe in a conspiracy if it hit them over the head (this is perhaps the best measure of the decline of the Left). Linkages make them sound really crazy, and they kinda know it.'"

              • kragen2 days ago
                In this context, three years ago, Vance was describing Yarvin as his "good friend" (when he was campaigning for a seat in the US Senate, which he won), while four months ago, Yarvin is saying he barely knows Vance. If you're suggesting that the apparent discrepancy is a result of strategic dishonesty for reputation preservation, that would mean that either:

                1. Yarvin wants to distance himself from Vance because he fears reputational damage from being associated with the US Vice President. (But from other evidence, cited in https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/moldbug-sold-out, this seems implausible.)

                2. Vance wanted to exaggerate his closeness to Moldbug in order to enhance his own reputation. This doesn't seem plausible either; it's implausible that more than 0.1% of the Ohio electorate had any idea who Moldbug was, and at the point that you're a plausible candidate for a US Senate seat, your reputation will no longer be enhanced by being associated with a little-known blogger.

                A much more likely explanation is that Vance admires Moldbug and wants to encourage his followers to read him.

                • ceejayoz2 days ago
                  You've left out the fairly obvious possibility #3, which is "Yarvin fears reputational damage to Vance that might prevent Vance from helping him advance his ideology". This, after all, was Thiel's concern in the quoted exchange.

                  #2 gets a lot more plausible when you remember these folks often care more about the backing (especially $$$) of someone like Thiel than the regular public, too.

                  • kragen2 days ago
                    Hmm, in that case you'd think he'd've avoided giving an interview to the New York Times?
                    • daotoada day ago
                      Pride and the opportunity to get your ego stroked makes people do dumb stuff all the time.

                      On the other hand, Yarvin may also be making the decision that any publicity will drive readers to him and net him more followers overall and that the risk of damage to Vance is less than the perceived benefit of new followers.

            • Hikikomori2 days ago
              And Trump said he knew nothing about project 2025 before the election. Yarvin has been close to Thiel for many years, is his advisor in some capacity, has invested in Yarvins companies, likely even friends. Vance worked for Thiel and his political career was bankrolled by Thiel. And you believe they barely know each other?
              • animal_spirits2 days ago
                Is it plausible? yes. So far evidence directly from Yarvin contradicts this and there's no hard evidence pointing to them being good buddies so I'm willing to accept his account.
              • kragena day ago
                Thousands of people work for Thiel that closely. Most of them don't know each other at all.
                • Hikikomoria day ago
                  > "'How dangerous is it that we are being linked?' Thiel wrote to Yarvin in 2014. “One reassuring thought: one of our hidden advantages is that these people”—social-justice warriors—'wouldn’t believe in a conspiracy if it hit them over the head (this is perhaps the best measure of the decline of the Left). Linkages make them sound really crazy, and they kinda know it.'"

                  Vance has called him his good friend before.

                  Trumps administration is implementing RAGE, something Yarvin came up with.

                  Why are you even trying to deny it when its so easily shown to be true.

          • tootie2 days ago
            I never quite put it together but Vance worked at Mithril Capital for Peter Thiel. Thiel's other ventures include Palantir, Valar Ventures and he's an investor in Anduril.

            How can someone be such a diehard Tolkien nerd and endorse government by corporation? Does he think the hero was Saruman?

            • kragen2 days ago
              What do you mean? Saruman didn't have shareholders, a board of directors, a profit motive, or indeed profits.
            • wat100002 days ago
              The fact that he named his surveillance company Palantir tells me that he's got that story flipped around.
              • kragena day ago
                Maybe he's just betting that his customers haven't read the story.
    • ceejayoz2 days ago
      Because the folks in power are suddenly endorsing them?
    • mikrl2 days ago
      My philosophical excursions eventually led me to his writings, but I never found what I read to be inspiring or substantial. Pretty much like Ayn Rand in that respect.

      Like a precocious undergrad who just discovered set theory and thinks he’s king of the… uhh sovereign corporation?

      Lots of literary references though. Borges, of course gave him Urbit/Tlon[0], and wrote some racially spicy stuff in his day. Pretty sure Nock is a reference to a controversial libertarian thinker[1]. I bet you could find more anti-Semitic, pro-slavery and anti-democratic Easter eggs if you looked.

      Clearly though, in person he managed to rub elbows with some pretty influential people… also like Ms Rand.

      [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Luis_Borges

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nock

      • unsigner2 days ago
        you're not wrong about most of this, but anti-semitic? he's very openly Jewish
        • mikrl2 days ago
          I don’t claim to understand, but it’s still a theme.

          Maybe it’s an elite vs mass culture anti-semitism? Lots of internalized hatred among ‘bougie’ white and black people towards their respective poor strata; why would a Jewish person interested in reactionary politics spare the normies who, on the whole, abhor it?

        • ceejayoz2 days ago
          Pockets of self-hating minorities most certainly exist.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...

        • n4r92 days ago
          His father was Jewish but his mother is said to be a Protestant. He doesn't describe himself as Jewish as far as I can see.
          • mikrl2 days ago
            Ironically, the same is true of Karl Marx! His father converted to Lutheranism and Karl was baptized as such.

            As a young man he wrote a paper on the topical question of the Jews in Prussia[0], regarded in the modern day as antisemitic, though probably tame for the era.

            [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

            • n4r9a day ago
              Well, except that Karl Marx's mother was Jewish.
    • rstuart41332 days ago
      Wild guess. As far as I can tell this was the first such article: https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-trumps-reign-fits-c... I posted it here, but it didn't attract much interest here or elsewhere from what I can tell. But as you can see it had interesting things to say. Those who make money from peddling words saw an opportunity, re-wrote and posted it as their own work.

      It's grubby process in some ways, but looking at it holistically, it's not a bad outcome. The meme has gotten the interest I think deserved, even it's creator didn't.

    • indoordin0saur2 days ago
      Because existing political theory has clearly failed us. People are interested in what else is out there, even if they aren't going to adopt it themselves.
    • thomastjeffery2 days ago
      engagement

      That's the only thing they value anymore.

  • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
    I mentioned this previously, but I frequently think back to Gibson's "Jackpot" -- a cross-lashed, polycausal catastrophe: Lots of bad little things accumulating, building up a certain momentum.

    I think that even as far back as 2009, an astute observer would have noticed that society is beginning to burn through its seed corn.

    In some places, things are now getting extremely acute: https://www.neilobrien.co.uk/p/the-confluence?r=h8x

    There's no way out but through, which means that politics are going to get extremely weird. Moldbug/Yarvin is one manifestation of this, and quite a benign and even harmless one. He's foppish and playful more than he is scary.

    • runako2 days ago
      > society is beginning to burn through its seed corn

      This is mostly true in the US, where a defining characteristic of the population is a belief that we cannot do better or have more, that things will always continue to get worse, and that everyone is out to take advantage of you all the time.

      Other countries continue to invest in the future. China, among others, do not suffer the current American fatalism.

      • soulofmischief2 days ago
        China's population is purportedly set to halve by 2100. They're well on their way to a massive population shock if they don't thread the needle carefully.

        There's also been lots of stories about bank closures and Chinese citizens losing their money.

        Additionally, China, like the US and many other world powers, is a totalitarian authoritarian government which is hostile towards its people. Whether China has high-speed monorails or not, they continue to slide backwards as a country into the dark ages, increasingly relying on invasive, pervasive surveillance as a tool of short-term stability, just like the US.

        • cassepipe2 days ago
          They have invested a lot into their energy sources whether it's nuclear or renewables + batteries or hydro. They also have industrial capacity.

          I feel like we tend to forget that the brunt of the economic output is made by machines which feed on energy. When you have virtually free energy and sufficient level of machinery, you can do anything.

          • soulofmischief2 days ago
            Personally, I directly use energy, both current and future (access to resources) as the main currency of my economic model of the world, not money. So I do understand that China is well-equipped to weather the storm on multiple fronts.

            But that's orthogonal to the fact that they will experience major population shock that radically and painfully transforms their economy, and also to the fact that China is a totalitarian nightmare with strict moderation of culture, knowledge and financial mobility.

            Who cares if the country still exists in name, if the number of people who manage to maintain a quality of life comparable today's average continues to dwindle?

            And what happens if China faces civil unrest and balkanizes, due to backlash against its increasingly authoritarian regime?

            • cjbgkagh2 days ago
              > China faces civil unrest and balkanizes, due to backlash against its increasingly authoritarian regime?

              I've been hearing this is eminent for my entire life....

              > major population shock that radically and painfully transforms their economy

              Ah Peter Zeihan's evergreen bugaboo. Chinese old people != American old people, the cost of old people is completely different. While China does have a Ponzi economy, much like the US, and thus is susceptible to reverse wealth effects their corporations are run by politicians instead of the other way around. As much as I would like to be able to assume that repressive autocracies lead to political instability the empirical evidence does not seem to bear that out.

              • ordinaryradical2 days ago
                You’ve been hearing it’s eminent because most of Chinese history has played out this way and the Chinese world view sees government as dynastic and cyclical as opposed to progressive or something else.

                It’s plausible because it’s culturally coherent but that does not necessitate it. Communism could have easily been too alien to succeed but Mao made it contextual, so it unified the society instead.

                The way I look at it, every government has an existential risk of getting out of sync with its host culture. When that happens, the system breaks and you get an irruption—revolution, civil war, Balkanization; is the current Chinese system and its overall direction compatible with its cultural inheritance? The degree of that answer is the degree of risk.

                • cjbgkagh2 days ago
                  I’ve been hearing it’s eminent because China is not a democracy, I hear the western perspective.

                  I see revolutions as an alternate elite agitating for change. In my model an effective suppression of an alternative elite is sufficient to prevent revolution. In my model it comes down to which secret police are more effective, the MSS or the CIA.

                  Which is especially relevant here because how much of the ‘Thielverse’ is really a CIA cutout, is Yarvin an external expression of an internal CIA power struggle.

                  • thedailymaila day ago
                    I don't want to be pedantic or prescriptive, but it's "imminent" not "eminent." (The wrong word got introduced upstream in this thread and was taken up by multiple commenters.)
                    • cjbgkagha day ago
                      Thanks, I'm a bit dyslexic so it is not uncommon for me to make such mistakes
                  • soulofmischief2 days ago
                    The US is not a functioning democracy and therefore effectively not a democracy at all, either.

                    It's hard to pinpoint exactly when an empire will fall, but the signs seem to be around for a long time prior to that moment, and you basically have the people who recognize those signs, the people who don't, and the people who profit from confusion and disorder that pay a lot of money to both overtly and subtlety convince people that everything is fine.

                    • cassepipe9 hours ago
                      > The US is not a functioning democracy and therefore effectively not a democracy at all, either.

                      It's a weird statement because you are jumping from a descriptive statement ("not a functioning democracy") to a normative one (if it's not at least 80% democratic then I have decided that it's not a democracy)

                      I am getting too old not to notice such rhetorical tricks. Do better.

                • maxglute2 days ago
                  IMO it's largely ignorant talking heads taking "The Empire, Long Divided, Must Unite" from popculture / memes and just ran with it, because China bad / should bulkanize, not historic credence. If there was actual historic awareness, this argument would also note significant united cycles of Chinese periods last 250-500 years, after shorter balkanization cycle (50-150 years, eastern zhou shitshow aside).

                  Then the argument would be CCP dynasty is just starting - 70 years into multiple generation spanning 250+ year cycle where they're already cooking, and TBH more geographically and culturally cohesive than any past periods. Or, US is 250 years into cycle, i.e. potentially approaching bulkanization time. But that would defeat / be contrary to the entire is PRC collapsing / bulkanizing meme. It's based on hopium.

                  • soulofmischief2 days ago
                    This is a biased and narrow take. The reality is that both the US and Chinese empires are threading a needle right now with respect to economics and civil unrest. The Chinese government is bad, and it's already split into China and Taiwan, further erosion of the dynasty is absolutely plausible.

                    There is zero value in pretending everything is hunky dory up until the moment that it all collapses.

                    • maxglute2 days ago
                      There's nothing biased/narrow to note that if one evaluates Chinese history, CCP/modern PRC is experiencing unprecedented domestic serenity and is likely amidst the rising/reunifying era post chaotic Qing interregnum/collapse. Given timeline, and procedurally, ROC/TW isn't indicator of start of balkanization but last piece to reunify now that frontiers like Tibet/XJ has been thoroughly incorporated. Between eminent rise and eminent collapse, it's pretty obvious to me which way PRC comprehensive power is trending towards.

                      There's zero value in pretending just because things are burning in US means things are also similarly burning in degree/scale in PRC. That's cope/projection. Of course eventually "China" can break up again, but the way things has/are trending, there's still a lot of rising to do. Like it would be one thing if PRC was stagnant or relatively declining throughout last 30 years of China collapse narrative (i.e. USSR vs US), and one can argue it's a matter of slowly then suddenly. But most lines are going up, in the opposite direction of collapse, sometimes at absurd slopes, despite best effort of hegemonic US trying to contain.

                      Not everything is hunky dory, but let's not pretend it's threading a needle with collapse. That narrative hasn't/doesn't reconcile with reality and history. And historically, authoritarian Chinese governments can grow very powerful for a very long time. To acknowledge your concern, the state can be strong at the expense of the people, both chinese and outside "barbarians", hegemonically strong. If CCP/PRC is just average performing dynasty, they'll likely still be around and powerful in 100+ years, i.e. all of our life times.

            • esseph2 days ago
              The world population is supposed to start declining between 2080-2100 depending on your source.

              It's not just China, it's a global problem.

          • throwaway298122 days ago
            [dead]
        • ben_w2 days ago
          > China's population is purportedly set to halve by 2100.

          75 years is a long time. At lot can change.

          75 years ago, China was just finishing its civil war, with the losers retreating to Taiwan. Land reform had an "estimated death toll ranging from hundreds of thousands to millions": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Reform_Movement

          The infamous famine was only about 65 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

          Now, I won't claim confidence that they will solve anything; but they are a dictatorship and they deliberately had a "once child" policy for a bit to prevent massive over-population, so it's absolutely conceiveable that their leadership sees too few children per woman and says "ok, new rule: if you want a kid, first one has got to be a girl, mandatory screenings during pregnancy".

          > increasingly relying on invasive, pervasive surveillance as a tool of short-term stability, just like the US.

          Given how cheap surveilance is, all nations faced a choice before GenAI made it even weirder: Either the police does this, or criminals do it for blackmail. Only solution I can see is extreme liberalisation, where personal behaviour most of us find repugnant is not just legally permitted but also socially permitted.

          Now that GenAI is in the mix, we need someone trustworthy to document reality and say what has even really happened. Insert your own jokes about the intersection of "government" and "someone trustworthy", but the need exists.

          • xp842 days ago
            > 75 years is a long time. At lot can change.

            True, but population collapse specifically is a tough headwind. You can't make more 2055 30-year-olds unless they've already been conceived today, and those will be the parents of the 2100 45-year-olds. While a lot can change, it's unrealistic to assume a birth rate will skyrocket all of a sudden (China's at 1.18 per woman and US is only at 1.6). The painful part, the bad worker:retiree ratio, is already set in stone, by the tininess of the millennial and Z generations, especially in China.

            That said, I hedge my bet by saying that if AGI arrives and happens to have a wildly positive impact on human lifestyles, I can grudgingly accept the possibility of an unprecedented baby-boom in a decade, fueled by a complete end of scarcity. Wouldn't bet on that catalyst though.

            • soulofmischief2 days ago
              I think any boom would be the result of the average amount and, relatedly, price of energy and land and stability available to a member of a given population sharply increasing.

              Millennials are having less kids because they proportionally have less access to energy and resources. I am 30 and we just bought our first home at 200x its original value in the early 20th century, and 4x what its previous owners payed 25 years ago. And the ratio of wage to housing costs in the US is the worst its ever been.

              I notice how many less things I and my friends have compared to our parents and grandparents at my age. I know I'm significantly less of a materialist than the post-WWII generations, but the discrepancy is massive.

              I want kids, but currently my significant other does not, nor does her sister. My significant other cites concerns about economic and mental stability in our rapidly evolving political climate. I cite concerns about the need for fostering resilient communities through effective child rearing. The majority of my similar aged friends today are childless. Comparatively, my mother birthed me at 21.

              In the late 90's and early 00's, you could be a full-time meth head and still afford property in the suburbs and some cities. Now, sober post-graduates are living in their cars working an impenetrable gig economy at the behest of big tech, the new oil industry. In this sense too, we could also measure an individual or community's health by how much influence an individual can exert on their increasingly digital lives. The app economy has eroded our rights and turned us into cattle. Even if they can't articulate it, my peers feel this and are continuing to put off kids, at risk of becoming infertile from waiting too long.

              Even if later generations pick up the slack, there are still unavoidable bumps in the road ahead due to what is happening right now with my generation. If things do not improve, birth rates will only continue to go down and possibly even nosedive, given some catastrophic global event that leads to an extended reduction in supply chain resiliency.

              https://www.timetrex.com/blog/us-house-prices-vs-wages

            • ben_w2 days ago
              > it's unrealistic to assume a birth rate will skyrocket all of a sudden (China's at 1.18 per woman and US is only at 1.6)

              Much less of a problem if the government mandates gender selection for the unborn resulting in 1/1.18 etc. of live births being women.

              Already technologically possible. I don't know if they could make that culturally, even dictatorships have limits, but the technology is there.

            • philistine2 days ago
              Why do you have the maximalist outlook that population must grow. All developed nations are looking at population crunches. All of them, and China and Russia as well. Reducing it to a Chinese problem is reductive. It’s a collective choice, and how is China doing better or worse than its peers?
              • soulofmischief2 days ago
                It's probably good for the planet if we depopulate. But the problem which comes with that is that socioeconomic policy and infrastructure has massively evolved over the course of the industrial and digital revolutions, boosted in the US by WWII, etc. A sudden decline of population makes things that were touted as viable or stable suddenly less viable or stable.

                For example, the dependency ratio changes, especially in an aging population. Look at what Japan's going through. A working married male in Japan might be taking care of both their immediately family and both their parents and their significant other's parents. It's a significant economic load and leads to significant issues around mental health and work-life balance.

                We can also look toward Japan as a test bed too, as their GDP and standard of living does continue to rise despite an ongoing population decline. This is not an impossible situation to manage, but it does require strong and thoughtful leadership

                There's also the lost of trade skills and workers in general needed to maintain current service-based infrastructure.

                In the case of China, their population of nearly 1.5bil is projected to be halving within 75 years. This is a massive difference that will require recalibration of policy and infrastructure, whereas other countries might experience a significantly lower ratio of decline.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_consequences_of_popul...

          • ponector2 days ago
            >75 years is a long time. At lot can change. 75 years ago, China was just finishing its civil war, with the losers retreating to Taiwan.

            It can go both ways. 75 years ago Great Britain was superpower. Nowadays people are struggling to afford living there. And future is grim.

          • giantrobot2 days ago
            > Either the police does this, or criminals do it for blackmail.

            Lucky us, we get both. Not only both spying but both blackmailing us. No good for the common person can come from a panopticon.

            • ben_w2 days ago
              I think you're underestimating the scope/magnitude of the problem.

              But first: Governments can't function if they're not the top power — sovereign — in their territories. If they don't effectively block the growth of criminals, they always lose, and then the criminals replace them. This argument also applies to foreign governments intelligence agencies interfering locally.

              For scope, consider: if some government was actually serious about road traffic laws, how long would it be before everyone that drove in their jurisdiction was banned from driving? I think the answer is between a week and a month.

              If the UK fully enforced just its heroin laws and gave up literally everything else, the net effect is it would triple their prison population. If they tried to enforce all drugs laws, they'd bankrupt themselves building prisons.

              A true panopticon government cannot function without commensurate liberalisation.

        • queenkjuula day ago
          Yes the ever impending Chinese financial collapse I've been reading about since 2017

          Any day now, right?

          • If you're incapable of recognizing the signs of an empire's collapse, slow as it may be initially, then you're trading a feeling of superiority in the present for being totally blindsided in the future when suddenly things accelerate and the world's governments begin to struggle under increasingly untenable energy and resource demands in the name of meeting quarterly growth quotas.

            The fact is that the signs are there, whether you want to learn to recognize them or not. And the signs go way further back than... 2017.

            Furthermore, "financial collapse" is a strawman. Who knows what will happen, and if the resulting government at the end is still technically "China". We're talking about increased economic strife and lack of resources for the common man.

            • queenkjuul11 hours ago
              I do feel the need to point out that there is in fact a reason that the US media has boldly proclaimed the impending financial collapse of China every month for the last ten years, and it's precisely to give you a feeling of superiority
            • queenkjuula day ago
              I was referring specifically to "reports of bank closures" that were they actually happening with such frequency and scale as has been reported on since 2017 or so, would surely have already caused a financial collapse.

              Any day now though, surely.

        • cempaka2 days ago
          A good measure of where China really stands is the fact that it continues to do business with Israel, even though it would be quite trivial to cut ties.
          • bdangubic2 days ago
            countries have no friends or enemies, only national interests
            • impossiblefork2 days ago
              This was a radical and fantastic idea of Palmerston's, which led to vigorous debate.

              But the interest in Palmerston's case going against Portugal and hunting the slave ships with the intent of ending the slave trade. That's what he felt was England's interest.

              Other things Palmerston cared about was that no country would end up powerful enough to dominate the entire world-- that's another thing he saw as part of England's interest. How sad to reduce interest to economic concerns or maintaining traditional alliances, when the idea was initially to justify this act of going against Portugal and the traditional alliance.

            • cempaka2 days ago
              "Countries" as such do not have interests, no. This is a line the ruling class puts out when it wants to obscure the fact that its own interests are always prioritized, often to the great detriment of the vast majority of the country.

              One could perhaps say that "governments" have interests, and in that case the interests of a genuine socialist state and an authoritarian regime that's just pretending to be one are quite different.

              • soulofmischief2 days ago
                Governments have interests, people have interests, both are interested in the future of their country, which is just land.

                This is why I am careful to delineate my patriotism as to my country, land and people, but specifically not my corporate government, who are greedy, genocidal, parasitic traitors to the Constitution and to humanity. A kangaroo court controlled by organized crime.

            • throwaway298122 days ago
              Dictatorships do they best to make everyone convinced of this.

              That way their way of doing business isn't questioned.

              • bdangubic2 days ago
                sure, that makes sense… they will do the business that jeopardizes national interest is the way to go /s

                also I was not talking about dictatorships at all but all countries

      • ryeats2 days ago
        This is not true. Your rose colored glasses of Chinese culture, and the current state of Chinese economy and society need a reality check.
        • runako2 days ago
          Pointedly, I did not make any points about the state of the Chinese economy etc.

          Rather, I observe that the Chinese continue to make large investments that will not pay off in the next couple of quarters. As the Chinese economy has expanded over the last 25 years, the average standard of living for Chinese people has increased. They continue to invest in infrastructure as if there will be a future.

          This all stands in contrast to the United States, where eating seed corn (the OP reference) is a very good analogy for our policies and actions.

        • cogman102 days ago
          It isn't perfect, but it's also undeniable that China is dumping a ton of money into infrastructure. It also has and has been executing multiple long-term initiatives (for example, high speed rail, renewable build out).

          Chinese culture isn't perfect by a long shot, in particular it's both pretty isolationist with a strong slash and burn mentality for resource acquisition.

          We can see both the positives and negatives of a country. I think it is a positive that china isn't as focused on short term results as the US political ecosystem is.

      • pavel_lishin2 days ago
        > This is mostly true in the US, where a defining characteristic of the population is a belief that we cannot do better or have more, that things will always continue to get worse, and that everyone is out to take advantage of you all the time.

        As an American immigrant, this does not seem at all true to me, from either angle - I don't think that this is a defining characteristic of Americans, nor do I think that other nations don't behave the same way.

        • runako2 days ago
          First, I am glad you are here. Since you mention that you are an immigrant, it's worth noting that the ascendant anti-immigrant fervor is a direct expression of pessimism about our future. It's a statement that there's not enough to go around, that growth is not possible. It says that in order for me to do better, I must shrink the denominator because the numerator cannot get bigger.

          The optimistic USA of the 1980s saw better days ahead, and so the presence of immigrants did not have the salience it has today. Ronald Reagan even had the latitude to enact an amnesty on the undocumented.

          > I don't think that this is a defining characteristic of Americans

          Here I would just ask you to look at our realized policy as the best expression of our characteristics. We don't build, or even really believe that building is possible. When we are asked to choose, we routinely cut education and healthcare. These are not signs of optimism.

          The pessimism has only grown; twenty years ago, it was considered possible that Americans could enjoy universal healthcare of the sort that exists in the (generally poorer) countries of Western Europe. Today, in a much wealthier America, even the suggestion has vanished from the realm of the possible and we are headed in the opposite direction.

        • gaze2 days ago
          The place where this perspective is most prevalent is socialized healthcare. It's either slippery slope evil socialism, or it's too impractical to ever be implemented here because America is too big and complicated, or it's never gonna happen due to regulatory capture.
        • throw0101b2 days ago
          > I don't think that this is a defining characteristic of Americans […]

          You just need the right/wrong ones to think that way and get a critical mass of folks that want "change" and want it now:

          * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism

      • paleotrope2 days ago
        Please, the fatalism you see if concentrated in the overproduced elite. Overrepresented on the internet.
      • hollerith2 days ago
        >This is mostly true in the US, where a defining characteristic of the population is a belief that we cannot do better or have more, that things will always continue to get worse

        My view is basically the complete opposite: IMHO Americans have experienced things getting gradually better for essentially the entire duration of the American nation, with the result that we don't have the institutional capability to respond effectively when growth stops or when (as in the case of climate change) growth becomes the problem that must be addressed.

        Western Europe has proven much better at running their societies in ways that do not depend on continued growth than the US has (at least in the period after WW II) which is why it has responded much quicker and more effectively to the challenge of climate change than the US has.

        Here is one man's summary of this dynamic: https://theportal.wiki/wiki/Embedded_Growth_Obligations

        Oh, wait: could it be that you are disappointed with the US (and see China in a favorable light) because the US isn't becoming Leftist quickly enough?

        • runako2 days ago
          > Americans have experienced things getting gradually better for essentially the entire duration of the American nation

          More or less, I agree with this part of the thesis.

          > Western Europe has proven much better at responding intelligently to the limits of growth than the US has

          This is kind of my point -- we don't do the things other countries do to respond because those things would broadly be perceived as improving the lot of most citizens, and Americans do not generally believe that is possible anymore. (Also: "socialism is bad!")

          But there is no reason for a country where economic measures of growth of wealth and income are so consistently strong should be so hesitant to invest in the future, and should be actively disinvesting in long-term initiatives.

          What's especially painful is that some of the same policy choices we make that result in more distress for citizens are also likely to reduce the long-run growth of the economy. We make choices that hurt us now and also make things worse in the future.

          (Generally not going to respond to the political dig because this really isn't a direct outgrowth of the typical left/right political divide in the US or its projections on other countries. For example, right-leaning Hungary has universal healthcare and free college tuition, but nobody is accusing Hungary of being Leftist.)

          • hollerith2 days ago
            >we don't do the things other countries do to respond because those things would broadly be perceived as improving the lot of most citizens, and Americans do not generally believe that is possible anymore.

            Americans have always had a (healthy IMHO) distrust of radical changes in our system of government while being unusually open to economic changes and technological changes that transform our society. I judge that the average American remains significantly more open to the latter than the average person in the world; do you disagree?

            • runako2 days ago
              > distrust of radical changes in our system of government

              A lot of what people are asking for is not radical in any sense other than that the status quo of USA in the 1970s is painted as "radical" now.

              Making public colleges as (inflation-adjusted) inexpensive as they were in 1970. Restoring the ability of builders to build sufficient housing to increase affordability. Restoring the gun control regime endorsed by Ronald Reagan. A return to a workplace culture where it is not normal for companies to continually lay people off, regardless of their performance or the performance of the business. Etc.

              Is it really "radical" to return to the enacted policies & norms of 1973 or 1980? (I am realizing I wrote this sentence in a comment thread about a person who has written about "humane" forms of genocide. The dissonance!)

              Would it be a radical change to our system of government to extend Medicare to cover people as young as 60? 50? 40? 30? 18? Or to let people opt to buy, at full fare, health insurance from the government? Where is the line at which it becomes radical?

              > being unusually open to economic changes and technological changes that transform our society

              I agree with you here. Unfortunately, I think part of the reason for that is because we have designed an unusually precarious (among rich countries) economic system. Many people are looking for a solution to that problem, and the next gimmick can get early adoptees if it promises a way out. But that last part, about transforming society, highlights the issue that we all know this system needs radical change, even if we don't want to admit it.

      • UncleOxidant2 days ago
        > in the US, where a defining characteristic of the population is a belief... that everyone is out to take advantage of you all the time.

        I mean, living in 2025 America that's not a bad default assumption to make, is it? By default when the solar salesman (or pest control salesman) comes to the door I consider it a scam because it generally is (same for phone sales, and most internet ads). Is everything a scam? No. But lots of things are and it's best to have your defenses up.

        • runako2 days ago
          One doesn't even have to look to salespeople knocking to find scams. It's widely accepted that key pillars of the way we choose to organize our society have scam-like elements.

          Healthcare. Zero job security. Virtually nonexistent support for parents. Retirement. Education.

          Switching to the American form of any single one of these would cause mass civil unrest in most rich countries, but Americans don't believe things can or should be better. Many believe the lie that we (poorest state has a higher GDP per capita than France) cannot afford the things other rich countries have. The pessimism is pervasive.

        • evklein2 days ago
          I have no empirical evidence of this to present, but if you view every transaction as existing on some scale of scam-iness, where one side is you lose your house and wife and kids and the other is an amazing deal for you, the average position on that scale has shifted toward the backside pretty much the entirety of my life. Anything that comes to me first, I pretty much always write off as a scam. Email from someone I don't know? Scam. Car dearlership advertising 0% APR for 5 years on a brand new car? Scam. Even something like my workplace offering a new optional benefit - probably a scam. Did things always feel like this?
          • runako2 days ago
            > Did things always feel like this?

            My perception is that people always felt like car dealers were scamming them.

            BUT people saw opportunity in the big things: education, housing, reward for good work. This is the part that has unraveled. Even public universities are out of reach for much of the middle class (this was not the case as recently as the '70s). We have systematically under built housing for 2 generations, so our job centers are ridiculously expensive. And our business culture has largely de-linked performance and job stability so that well-performing people routinely get laid off for even when their firms are doing well.

            It's worth noting here that all of these are enabled by deliberate policy changes that have been enacted since the 1980s.

          • ragnese2 days ago
            > Did things always feel like this?

            I wonder about this, too. What were things like in, say, the 1960s? When you went to buy a new appliance, did you feel like the appliance was designed to intentionally screw you as much as possible via planned obsolescence, anti-consumer-repair measures, purchased "warranties" that had tons of fine print so you could never actually benefit, etc?

            Even as a kid growing up in the 80s and 90s, I learned that everything was a scam. How many times did child-me watch a TV commercial (on the childrens' channels) that showed a remote-controlled toy car doing extremely cool stunts and riding on rocks and dirt, only to get it for a birthday present and have it not able to move at all unless it was on a totally flat, level, surface? Or, have you ever seen a commercial for a toy like the "Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots"? I'm sure they're on YouTube. Then once you see the toy in person it's pathetic.

            I've truly been taught my whole life that everything is a scam.

            • UncleOxidant2 days ago
              > When you went to buy a new appliance, did you feel like the appliance was designed to intentionally screw you as much as possible via planned obsolescence

              I feel like it's way worse now. We bought our first home in 1990. It was built in 1974. The Whirlpool dishwasher was original from when the house was built. It was harvest gold, but we discovered there were almond and avocado green panels inside the door and you could switch them out if your decor changed, meaning that they were planning for this dishwasher to last a while. In the 20 years we lived there we only had trouble with it once and it turned out that replacing a solenoid was quite easy to do. When we moved to another house we rented that house out. That dishwasher lasted until 2014. A dishwasher that lasts 40 years is unheard of now. Our last dishwasher barely made it 7 years.

              • ragnesea day ago
                Thank you for sharing that experience. It certainly meshes with my suspicions. I'm actually currently experiencing almost the same phenomenon in my house. My refrigerator was here when I moved in five years ago. It has a service sticker on it from 1997! I don't know exactly when this model left the factory, but if it's "only" 28 years old that would mean that things have gotten worse even since the 90s.

                The only issue the fridge has had is that one of the defroster heater coils died (it has two- I guess because it's a side-by-side style, so the freezer part is tall). It wasn't very hard to replace. In fact, the hardest part was actually finding the part, itself.

          • _DeadFred_2 days ago
            No. There were pretty big changes after 1987, 9/11, and 2008. Even prior to the current regime this is not what normal used to feel like in the US.
        • ModernMech2 days ago
          It's a self fulfilling prophecy. When you believe others are out to take advantage of you, you can justify taking advantage of others, which causes them to believe others are out to take advantage of them. So on and so forth. Those who resist this cycle are labeled "naive".
    • pjs_2 days ago
      > no way out but through

      Is exactly the philosophical dead end that Nick Land and Curtis and maybe Mark Fisher arrived at. Accelerationism is like the FedEx arrow in that it’s both an unforgettable idea and easy enough that anyone can grasp it, some of the dumbest politicians of our time are ardent believers.

      It’s fun to think about the possibility that belief in this conclusion was premature two decades ago when CCRU and NRx people were banging on about it but now maybe it actually isn’t premature. Which would annoyingly be a pretty compelling instance of hyperstitional time war

      • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
        Accelerationism doesn't work because "accelerating" = "making things worse for the people."

        People who imagine that they'll emerge victoriously from the chaos are really quite childish; odds are that the accelerationists will suffer like all the rest -- or worse. They're like children who read medieval history and imagine themselves princes and dukes, rather than dirt farmers laboriously clearing woods and plowing fields.

        When I say that there's no way out but through, I mean that things are bad and getting worse, and there's nothing anyone can do about it other than develop the skills to survive by any means necessary. (For some that means survivalism, or moving to Fiji, or just hanging out here and making lots of money.) Do you think we can vote our way out of this mess, with representative democracy? The way things are today? lol, lmao even.

        As to the second part of your comment -- I'm reminded of what Jack Womack wrote in the 2000 reissue of Neuromancer: Has "the act of writing it down, in fact, brought it about?"

        • roughly2 days ago
          > People who imagine that they'll emerge victoriously from the chaos are really quite childish; odds are that the accelerationists will suffer like all the rest -- or worse. They're like children who read medieval history and imagine themselves princes and dukes, rather than dirt farmers laboriously clearing woods and plowing fields.

          This is what’s always struck me about people like Bannon, Miller, Yarvin - guys, you’re on top. The only thing keeping you there is the system. Not much use for failed history scholars in the real world.

    • sitkack2 days ago
      > He's foppish and playful more than he is scary.

      This is a very unwise stance to take. Peter Thiel has teamed up with the Heritage Foundation to implement this plan. This is why A16Z and Musk put Trump in power, it is precisely to implement this plan.

      • Benjammer2 days ago
        The fact that Thiel backs him so hard is what worries me more than anything. Thiel has a way of making things happen when he's really committed to something on a personal level... (see the Gawker Media case)
      • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
        Musk is on the outs. And what if there is no grand conspiracy?

        We're extremely far from any of Yarvin's "plans" at any rate. Yarvin's most cherished plan was to create a shadow university called the "Antiversity" -- a sort of repository of all truths unbeholden to politics and fads. Is this a bad idea? Which other Yarvin ideas scare you so?

        • UncleMeat2 days ago
          Today I found out that a friend of mine had their tenure case rejected because of their participation in a peaceful protest by a board of visitors staffed with GOP appointees.

          The rising fascist movement is anything but supporting a “repository of truths in beholden to politics and fads.”

          The reality matters. Simply saying “oh I’m good” while Yarvin smashes people under his feet is garbage.

        • skrtskrt2 days ago
          Yarvin's ideas of "truths" are in the realm of phrenology and race science
        • drewbeck2 days ago
          Some of the wealthiest people in the world follow his ideas, including people who have been in government or deeply involved in government, and people who want to use their wealth to increase their own power.

          Why are you not concerned?

        • soulofmischief2 days ago
          > And what if there is no grand conspiracy?

          What if, indeed... and what if they even publicly announced their conspiracy and outlined their exact plans in full?

          Direct texts:

          https://static.heritage.org/project2025/2025_MandateForLeade...

          https://www.project2025.org/playbook/

          Summaries:

          https://www.aclu.org/project-2025-explained

          https://democracyforward.org/the-peoples-guide-to-project-20...

          Implementation tracker:

          https://www.project2025.observer/

        • ceejayoz2 days ago
          > And what if there is no grand conspiracy?

          You did the thing!

          "'How dangerous is it that we are being linked?' Thiel wrote to Yarvin in 2014. “One reassuring thought: one of our hidden advantages is that these people”—social-justice warriors—'wouldn’t believe in a conspiracy if it hit them over the head (this is perhaps the best measure of the decline of the Left). Linkages make them sound really crazy, and they kinda know it.'"

          • cassepipe2 days ago
            Source ?
            • ceejayoz2 days ago
              The article we're discussing. It's a direct quote from it.
            • esseph2 days ago
              The link?
        • colechristensen2 days ago
          >"Antiversity" -- a sort of repository of all truths unbeholden to politics and fads. Is this a bad idea?

          It's not an idea in good faith. The people talking the loudest about political bias and trends being "wrong" are very much more likely to be extremely biased and following fads themselves.

          If you actually cared about unbaised truths you'd be having good faith debates and be open to critical interpretation.

          But the people complaining about political bias &c. are actually complaining that their bias isn't the dominant one.

          • skrtskrt2 days ago
            Yes and by and large things that "they won't teach you in college" are because they have been already looked into and rejected by any serious academic.

            These institutions are not above criticism (particularly in regards to economic theory IMO) but universities not teaching like, race science and holocaust denialism is not because they are scared of some "alternate truth" out there.

            • colechristensen2 days ago
              >These institutions are not above criticism

              And there's a troubling problem that the criticism isn't being addressed.

              One of the reasons we're in the political extremist situation is that the only ones seemingly capable of getting anything done are the fascists with no respect for rule of law. People get so sick for so long of nothing getting better that large numbers of them are turning to extremists who are actually addressing problems. Not in good ways or ways that many of us support, but they're in power because they're doing something.

              Reasonable people failing to address reasonable problems encourage extremists. Now more than ever we have to do a great job of fairly managing our own house or it's going to get taken over by people will do it one way or another.

              • skrtskrta day ago
                I tend to agree with this basic argument that feckless do-nothing liberalism leads to fascism. If the existing power structure is actively, visibly, constantly working to make people's lives better than fascist messaging is far less effective.

                I do think that our current brand of fascism has completely skipped the "make some things better to prove the superiority of our ideology" stage (e.g. "Mussolini made the trains run on time" type stuff.) To say they are actually addressing problems is an absurdity. They can't even cut overall spending like they claim they would. They simply have to use their tens of thousands of media outlets and social media bots to convince people to not believe their eyes while things visibly and rapidly deteriorate.

          • soulofmischief2 days ago
            Yes, I'm disinclined to believe that these extremely biased folk are largely incapable of recognizing bias on the opposite side of the isle. It seems like bad faith all the way down to a core of deep insecurity, fear, vindictiveness and lack of basic respect for others' boundaries.
        • and02 days ago
          > Yarvin's most cherished plan was to create a shadow university called the "Antiversity" -- a sort of repository of all truths unbeholden to politics and fads. Is this a bad idea?

          Yes. That is a twelve-year-olds idea of a smart idea.

        • sjsdaiuasgdia2 days ago
          > Musk is on the outs.

          Musk "left" government the day before his government employment would reach a length threshold requiring a lot more paperwork and transparency.

          Trump presented Musk with a ceremonial key to the White House.

          Musk has made some recent statements about the "big beautiful bill" that could be seen as an actual policy break with Trump. With that, he's aligned to GOP politicians who feel the bill doesn't cut enough taxes and/or spending. And he's still very much in the conversation.

          Musk is not on the outs. That's just kayfabe.

          • convolvatron2 days ago
            this is one of the most depressing things about recent turns. this directly manufactured outrage. these petty dramas, this US govt a tv show. Oh no, did you see what trump did to that foreign leader? we've been explicitly given a sham, playacting government whose primary mission to be replace honest debate with this sham soap opera. i expect soon to found out that the Elon that we see is really his secret twin.
        • freejazz2 days ago
          RAGE?
        • NickC252 days ago
          Musk is on the outs because if he didn't leave his post within another week or so as he was a temporary government employee. In other words, had he stayed, he would have had to publicly disclose a ton of personal financial information.

          Him "leaving" was part of the plan, and this fallout was most likely part of the charade.

        • Hikikomori2 days ago
          https://www.project2025.observer/

          Its ongoing, and this is just phase 1 of whatever they've cooked up. But its not like all Yarvins ideas are happening, its an amalgamation of his ideas and Christian fascism. It's likely they will just Trump at some point and then they'll have their true puppet believer as president.

        • cempaka2 days ago
          Just because Musk is done firing government employees and is engaged in a little punch-and-judy show of conflict with the Trump administration does not mean he is "on the outs"
          • sitkack2 days ago
            Musk and Doge were a distraction, the firings were done by the newly appointed heads of Departments.
    • indoordin0saur2 days ago
      Is his opinion really weird when a strong centralized leader (kings, emperors, etc.) was the norm until very very recently? Seems like it's more a return of the political theory of of "enlightened absolutism" that was popular amongst philosophers in the 18th century, or maybe something like Confucius' ideas on government.
      • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
        Yeah. You should read what Schopenhauer had to say about government, and this was barely 150 years ago, in the mid 19th.

        > "In general, the monarchical form of government is that which is natural to man; just as it is natural to bees and ants, to a flight of cranes, a herd of wandering elephants, a pack of wolves seeking prey in common, and many other animals, all of which place one of their number at the head of the business in hand.

        > "Every business in which men engage, if it is attended with danger — every campaign, every ship at sea — must also be subject to the authority of one commander; everywhere it is one will that must lead. Even the animal organism is constructed on a monarchical principle: it is the brain alone which guides and governs, and exercises the hegemony. Although heart, lungs, and stomach contribute much more to the continued existence of the whole body, these philistines cannot on that account be allowed to guide and lead. That is a business which belongs solely to the brain; government must proceed from one central point. Even the solar system is monarchical. On the other hand, a republic is as unnatural as it is unfavourable to the higher intellectual life and the arts and sciences. Accordingly we find that everywhere in the world, and at all times, nations, whether civilized or savage, or occupying a position between the two, are always under monarchical government. The rule of many, as Homer said, is not a good thing: let there be one ruler, one king.

        In general, I think that those experiments in autocracy that have taken place between 1850-Present rather disprove this notion. (One of the rare things old Schop was wrong about!) The Athenians were right: The affairs of state must be the affairs of every citizen. England's problems won't be solved by a restoration of the Stuarts (I think that the current Stuart heir is a 50 year old banker who is exceedingly uninterested in the job) but they can possibly be solved by dispensing with parliament and enabling qualified citizens to vote directly on laws and regulatory matters. I dare say you won't end up with butter knife bans this way.

        • CooCooCaCha2 days ago
          The counter-argument is that even if you say democracy is sub-optimal, it’s certainly more stable than monarchy. Monarchy sounds good when you have a benevolent philosopher-king that does all the right things, but what if you get a bad king? That could mean decades of poor leadership.

          With a monarchy, lighting has to strike over and over again.

          • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
            Yet throughout history monarchies have been, by and large, more stable than democracies. There are well-attested dynasties that have lasted for many centuries -- the Zhou, Abbasid, and Rurikid dynasties were all in power for >700 years!

            The Abbasid dynasty was at last conquered by the Ottomans -- themselves a >600-year dynasty.

            Is there a democracy worthy of the name that has ever lasted >300 years?

            "Certainly more stable than monarchy" -- nothing certain about it! History teaches just the opposite.

            Sure, from time to time you get a bad emperor. Rome was lousy with bad emperors, towards the end. They tended to be "managed" by their handlers/Praetorians, and the empire marches on.

            And Chinese history is basically like: Strong+cunning warrior leads a rebellion and establishes a dynasty, seizing the Mandate of Heaven. His heir, though still vigorous, is less strong and less cunning. His heir is weaker and duller still. By the 10th generation the emperor is a ne'er-do-well who does nothing but eat and write insipid poetry, and the empire is left to eunuchs and oligarchs who loot the populace. Rebellion ensues, a new warrior starts a new dynasty, and so it goes... This predictable cycle was stable for well over 1000 years.

            • frm88a day ago
              "Is there a democracy worthy of the name that has ever lasted >300 years"

              For varying degrees of democracy: Athens: ~ 510-310 BC (yes yes 200) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy Rome: ~ 509 - 027 BC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic Venice: 697-1797 AD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice

              to name the most commonly known.

              • A_D_E_P_Ta day ago
                I don't think that anybody seriously considers the republic of Rome a democracy.

                Also Athenian and Venetian "democracy" were so wildly different from the current model that it's really not at all the same thing. Hewing more closely to the Athenian model could solve many of the world's problems, but today's oligarchical (at best!) "representatives," having attained power, will not willingly relinquish it.

                • CooCooCaChaa day ago
                  In that case, you defeated your own argument because if you dismiss historical democracies (which I agree with) then you’re left with modern democracies which haven’t existed long enough to compare with monarachy in terms of resilience.

                  But I also fully acknowledge that invalidates my argument as well. However, I still think the stability of monarchies is overstated. Just because a dynasty lasts for 700 years doesn’t mean it was stable.

                  • A_D_E_P_Ta day ago
                    Uh, yeah, which is why "democracies are certainly more stable than monarchy" doesn't make any sense.

                    > modern democracies which haven’t existed long enough to compare with monarachy in terms of resilience.

                    lol, dude. Western democracy has been been on the wane for a long time now, and it's unironically just about over. The West is either going to continue down its path towards less democracy and plutocrat/oligarch/jurist rule with politics as bread and circuses (very bad, an intensification of what we have right now) -- or make a hard break towards more democracy and prole/populist mob rule (not necessarily a bad thing, unless you're a political extremist like, perhaps ironically, Yarvin himself.)

                    Polybius saw it all, in his day.

                    <-- Ochlocracy <--> Democracy <--> Oligarchy -->

            • > Is there a democracy worthy of the name that has ever lasted >300 years?

              I mean, democracy became popular less than 300 years ago, so probably not. That being said, if you squint then the UK is pushing 400 years of some form of democracy (modulo all the biased voting and the franchise only being given to rich people).

      • roughly2 days ago
        I recommend “The Dawn of Everything” by David Graeber and David Wengrow - they do a good job dispelling this myth.
    • and02 days ago
      RE: that Neil O'Brien piece

      Demographic collapse? Sure, huge issue. But why is this happening? Why did it start happening before the other issues?

      A rap group being critical of Churchill at an official event? Not really an issue. I don't think that is why Britain is failing. And I'll need citations for why moral introspection is demoralizing rather than uplifting and enlightening for a culture. Or maybe suggest something that the youth should feel good about rather than browbeating them for not being thrilled at the state of things.

      Immigration? Not an issue for the USA after the great depression, which also had a massive welfare state.

      I agree that Britain is collapsing, but not for those reasons. What a stunning lack of imagination.

      e: Also, are migrants really to blame for Britain selling off all of its state capacity for pennies on the dollar since the 80s? Did migrants vote to violently eject Britain from the European economy in 2015? Any mention of that? Or would that type self-reflection hurt the cultural morale?

      Maybe Britain would be better off with people who are a little less integrated with those values.

    • retube2 days ago
      There's some startling and alarming statistics in that obrien piece. Is this guy legit? or a swivel-eyed loon of the farage ilk
    • guelo2 days ago
      If you link approvingly to Blood and Soil type of content I can see why you would think of Yarvin as harmless.
    • youngtaff2 days ago
      > In some places, things are now getting extremely acute: https://www.neilobrien.co.uk/p/the-confluence?r=h8x

      Neil O’Brien is a right wing anti-immigrant Member of Parliament… as with all politicians what he says should be taken with a pinch of salt

      • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
        Rather the opposite, I think. To me it seems that the fact that he's an MP makes it all the more interesting. In the UK, as in the US and elsewhere, people across the political spectrum -- and at all levels, from MPs to "Gary the regional sales manager" -- are losing faith in democratic processes. (At least as they're currently implemented.)

        As an aside, this is exactly what happens in Gibson's Jackpot.

        > “Who runs it, then?”

        > “Oligarchs, corporations, neomonarchists. Hereditary monarchies provided conveniently familiar armatures. Essentially feudal, according to its critics. Such as they are.”

        That there's no way to vote your way out of this mess is most readily apparent in the UK, but it's true practically everywhere except Switzerland.

        Switzerland, to some extent, shows that sometimes problems with democracy can be solved with. . . more democracy.

        • youngtaffa day ago
          Some people are losing faith in the democratic process but that’s largely because they’ve been fed lies by people like Farage and Johnson who’ve promised them things that cannot be delivered
          • A_D_E_P_Ta day ago
            People these days tend to simply vote against the status quo. Remember "zero seats"? And that's exactly how Trump got elected in the first place -- and then re-elected after a four-year interregnum.

            But scratch the surface and all mainstream political parties only offer a continuation or intensification of the status quo.

  • skrebbel2 days ago
    I'll never understand why this man gets so much attention.
    • scoofy2 days ago
      We are in the midst of a major political party realignment. When that happens, both parties are split and elections basically create a broken legislature. When that happens, people start daydreaming: "what if my political group didn't have do deal with other people having influence on the way government should be."

      Even trifecta states are dealing with this, as is obvious from the turmoil and wild animosity that exists in one-party California. The constitution gets changed willy-nilly to create effectively unchangeable advantages for certain groups at the expense of others.

      The US is moving from a situation in which they had enough money (well, deficit spending) to solve most of our problems without upsetting too many constituencies. Those days are over and we're now trying to do something, anything, to avoid having to make tough decisions that might mean losing an election. Our electorate wanting something, anything, to prevent them from losing whatever preferential political goals they have are entertaining the same naive ideas.

      Win once, and let the next generation deal with the fallout. Basic human selfishness par excellence.

    • thrance2 days ago
      He found patronage in the American oligarchy (look up his ties with Peter Thiel, for example) and as a result, his ideas are now directly implemented by the current administration, that is 100% subservient to capital.
      • 2 days ago
        undefined
      • skrebbela day ago
        To be fair I don't follow at all. Are you saying that it's more likely for the US under Trump to become a Yarvin-style ultracapitalist monarchy than, say, an Orban-style just-about-dictatorship? Despite the fact that the first is one crackpot's weird idea on the internet and the latter is a model with a playbook that's demonstrated to work extremely well in practice? (if your goal is to stay in power as long as you can) It just seems.. well unlikely at least?

        I mean it's so weird, one day some Republican says positive shit about Orban and the whole left wing media screams "oh no they're going to pull an Orban" and now suddenly it's "well actually no, we heard Vance has once read a Moldbug rant so actually they're going to install a king-CEO". Next day Trump is a fascist, the day after he's "Putin's asset". It gets a bit ridiculous to be honest. Do we really believe the administration believes in anything at all? I'm not convinced anybody running the US right now has the attention span to read a Yarvin post all the way to the end. It just feels like obsessive fearmongering to me at this point, stack up all the bogeymen you can think of on one big pile and say that the Trump administration is all of them at the same time.

        I say this as someone who thinks Trump is the worst thing to happen to the world in quite some time. I worry that all this panic actively hurts the opposition and that anybody who kinda sorta likes Trump is going to be very tired very fast of this kind of reporting.

        • thrancea day ago
          I think you may have a shallow understanding of what fascism is, and I don't mean that disparagingly. I can't recommend this short read enough: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci...

          Fascism is always a big tent movement, that is surprisingly lenient in who it allows inside. Ultraliberalists (Thiel...), Christian traditionalists (Vance...), pro-Russians (Gabbard...), etc. They all find a seat in Trump's administration.

          You have to remove this idea from your head that fascism is a focused ideology with a consistent system of ideas. It is anything but. There is no grand Machiavellian plan to build X, Y or Z.

          My previous comment attempted to explain why Yarvin's ideas came into the public's eye: because he was sponsored by one of the factions that today occupies a prominent role in Trump's administration. Nothing more.

          While fascism is internally inconsistent, it does exhibit some consistent aspects, explicited in the short essay I linked you. Close relations with the capitalist class is one of them, and indeed, this ties together Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, Trump...

          So to answer your question: no, I don't think we're likely to get a CEO-king. But we will get a generic authoritarian government, which is where Orban's ended too. Not out of sheer ideology but as a result of every faction's pull towards something like that.

          You might want to consume less liberal media, as those are forever clueless about what's happening since they can't reason about the prevalence of capital in Trump's politics. Actual left-wing media has been pretty spot-on in my experience, in predicting the general outline of Trump's policies. Deporting citizens? check. Cutting medicare/medicaid? check. Undoing constitutional checks to power? check.

          • skrebbela day ago
            Great writeup, thanks!

            (I do still feel like all the constant outrage blurs more than it reveals, though, and that this article ("plot against america", seriously?) is a nice example)

            • thrancea day ago
              Certainly, the left could use a more focused messaging.
    • goatlover2 days ago
      Just pay attention to what the Trump administration has been doing this second term.
    • throwaway47362 days ago
      [dead]
  • ivraatiems2 days ago
    The key driver behind Yarvin's ideology seems to be arrogance, covering perceived self-weakness. I think that's what makes it appealing to so many Silicon Valley "nerd king" type figures, and also why it has the form it does.

    Yarvin comes off - not just here, but through his writing and his work - as absolutely obsessed with proving himself and being smarter than everyone. He admits he has the gifted child need to prove yourself drive, but he doesn't seem to have invested time in figuring out how to move past it or use it productively.

    You can completely discard Yarvin's ideology - or even agree with it - and still see this in the way he works. His company, Urbit (not the name of the company but the name of its "product") is a ham-handed, hyper-complex "re-imagining" of pretty much every wheel in computing, from the OS to networking to programming languages. It has effectively no useful user-facing features, but a whole lot of design philosophy and programming language design. It creates lots of problems while solving almost none, but it looks impressive.

    ...which is to say it maybe actually isn't all that far off from his ideological and political writing, in the end.

    • emporas2 days ago
      Urbit is also written in PHP. A clone of Urbit is written in Rust, i was reading it's source some years back, i don't even remember it's name, but i had this feeling of "Ok, what is that thing doing".

      But one thing is clear to me. Blockchain technology + IPv6 opens a lot of possibilities to re-imagine networking, and that's what Urbit is mainly focused on: networking.

      A good blockchain technology also has possibilities to re-imagine parts of OS.

      For example we will not need to have local users if all identities can be verified using credentials stored online, immutable forever. Also we won't need to have local networks, DNS, Time servers etc. Everything will be global.

      Many ideas there, but each one of those problems is unbelievably hard by itself, all of them together is half of the internet and computing infrastructure.

    • bitwize2 days ago
      Lol, I said that about Urbit 10 years ago, back when Hackernews was still glazing it (and him). That it's a shellgame he plays to seem smart and innovative, without actually breaking new conceptual ground, and that it has that in common with his Moldbug stuff.

      And for a bit of fun, I even posted an Urbit parody in those days, in which I inadvertently invented a feature of the Unison programming language: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10409837

    • sanderjd2 days ago
      ... does it look impressive? I happened across it again recently, and it reinforced my previous view that it seems like a total mess and waste of a time.

      What I honestly remain unclear on: Are these serious efforts - both the political writing and the technical work - or is it elaborate trolling?

      Does anyone know?

    • archagon2 days ago
      So many historical atrocities could have been curtailed with just a bit of therapy.
  • tptacek2 days ago
    My favorite observation about this was made on Twitter, of all places, when someone said that for all Yarvin's efforts to become the heir to Ezra Pound, the true 21st Century Pound is Kanye West.
  • defen2 days ago
    Question for 'dang - is it possible to dig up the oldest post on this website that links to somewhere on "unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com" and has some amount of comments? It would be interesting to see how people were reacting to his ideas when he first posted them.
    • n2d42 days ago
      • sanderjd2 days ago
        This one is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49533.

        Submitted by pg!

        • Hikikomori2 days ago
          Many tech billionaires are buying his shit.
          • sanderjd2 days ago
            That was submitted almost two decades ago. It would be interesting to know what pg thinks about this stuff today, but based on his recent writing I'd bet that he is not buying it.

            (Also, submitting articles does not imply agreeing with them.)

            • Hikikomoria day ago
              Don't know about pg, but Yarvin was popular in silicon valley and investor circles. From what I know at least the people below are connected to Yarvin/Thiel and 'network states'. Likely more billionaires that hide it.

              Thiel, Musk, Brian Armstrong, Marc Andressen, Ben Horowitz, David Sacks.

      • the_af15 hours ago
        Wow. It's interesting to see Yarvin's rants about CS and programming languages are as ill-informed and uneducated as his political rants.
  • senkora2 days ago
    Scott Alexander also recently had a take on Curtis Yarvin’s recent actions: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/moldbug-sold-out

    The gist of it is that he had interesting ideas on political systems in the past, but that his current ideas are nonsense, and in fact his old work explains exactly why his new work is nonsense.

    • biophysboy2 days ago
      A sci-fi variant of autocracy is not an interesting idea though. Why is a CEO king and a royal board of directors interesting? Its not even novel: his proposal is identical to that laid out by the "technocracy" movement a century ago.
      • quadragenarian2 days ago
        Having had a stint in my youthful life where I studied Technocracy a great deal, I still see some powerful concepts that I can't let go of. The emphasis on standardization and elimination of the price system, even if nothing more than a though experiment on human nature, seemed like worthwhile concepts to consider. Rather than demonize the technocracy movement, I would recommend some investigation into the ideas that underpinned it, especially as we now witness a transition from a limitless growth world to steady state.
        • biophysboy2 days ago
          My basic issue with technocrats is that they conflate aesthetic rationality with effective rationality. The perfect city is not a symmetric grid, for example. Yarvin’s writing is Brasilia in Substack-form. A lot of tech “geniuses” are like this (e.g. Thiel, Andreesen)
      • underlipton2 days ago
        Tangential: I'm reminded of the sadly stillborn Final Fantasy Versus XIII, and its apparent ambition to present a "modern" monarchy, styled visually with elements of both contemporary business and the mafia. You're right, there's nothing inherently noble or benevolent in autocracy; the king brought forward to the present isn't a statesman or innovator, he's a robber baron or a crime boss. I kind of lament that that sort of explicit idea didn't enter the cultural discourse.
        • biophysboy2 days ago
          That is a shame - sounds like a fun idea for a JRPG.

          Bioshock sort of touches on technocracy, but its more post-apocalyptic. A game that spans the rise and fall of a "board of great geniuses" would be great.

          • underliptona day ago
            Minor spoilers, but: DEATHLOOP. Which, as luck would have it, is currently free on Epic Games Store.
      • p3rls2 days ago
        technocracy, aka the progressive movement, aka the acknowledged antecedents of most this thread's political views -- funny how things change
        • biophysboy2 days ago
          The alliance between tech and progressivism did not really exist until the 80s. Even then it’s always been tenuous and contradictory.
        • const_cast2 days ago
          Progressiveness is like waves of wind. It comes and it goes, and it goes more often then it comes. We have extremely brief sections of time where a lot of progressiveness is achieved, and then we have longer periods of darkness where we stagnate or regress.

          Reconstruction, followed by Jim Crow. The late 70s had a period of progressiveness, of openness, especially towards homosexuals. Then AIDS came, and that was all forgotten. The 80s were another dark age.

          In the 90s we had another brief opening, but that too ended sooner than it started. We didn't pick up until the 2010s. By 2014/2015 progressiveness was on the way out, just in time for marriage equality to push through. And now, we are in another dark period and have been for a while.

          Technocracy just follow wherever the wind blows. Progressiveness will come back, and hopefully we can push enough through that we'll be set for the next decade to come. That's really what it's all about - get as much done as fast as possible, so that it cannot all be reverted, no matter how hard conservatives try.

        • Hikikomori2 days ago
          Musks grandfather was part of Technocracy Incorporated in Canada before it was banned, then moved to south Africa as Canada wasn't racist enough.
    • kiitos2 days ago
      He never had interesting ideas, even in the past. It was always just neo-reactionary feudalist garbage from day 1.
    • rjbwork2 days ago
      The style of this post reminds me a lot of Matt Levine's money stuff.
      • maxerickson2 days ago
        Matt Levine is coherent though.

        I would think someone intent on calling Moldbug's ideas interesting would at least try to patch up the big holes. Like the city-states that have free flowing capital and populations, but somehow avoid an analogue to international law.

        Or the dictator that isn't subject to approval, except by the required committee that can fire him. There's 4 points and 2 of them are contradictory!

        • the_af2 days ago
          > Like the city-states that have free flowing capital and populations, but somehow avoid an analogue to international law.

          This is what kills me about attempts like this (e.g. like Scott Alexander's) to make Yarvin's ideas seem "interesting" or "thought-provoking".

          Well-read as Yarvin might be, only someone who is mentally a teenager can have his kind of beliefs. "Society would be great if it weren't for all these monstruous things I don't like, artificially imposed on us by... aliens?"

          It reminds me of teenagers who go online and make arguments like "well, ackshually, the US is not a democracy but a republic...". Yeah, yeah, you're very smart for pointing this out, now go sit in a corner and let the grownups talk.

      • ivraatiems2 days ago
        Agreed, or patio11's financial writing. The style is a big part of why people like Alexander so much.
    • basch2 days ago
      Does anyone have a link to the tool some hn person made of a tool that catalogs all Yavin's old writing? It was a really slick project and I misplaced it.
    • quickthrowman2 days ago
      A fascist technocracy is not interesting in the slightest. It’s what basement dwelling teens who idolize John Galt dream about before they are exposed to the complexity of the real world.
      • ToValueFunfetti2 days ago
        Understatement of the millenium, but Yarvin has written a lot more than "let's do fascist technocracy!"

        I find his writing style wastes a lot of one's time and I disagree with him on nearly everything, but there's no denying that there are many interesting ideas in there.

        • kiitos2 days ago
          I absolutely deny that there are any interesting ideas in there.

          We've done this, it was called the dark ages and it sucked and we moved past it. Engaging with this pablum in any way is granting it attention and vigor it obviously doesn't deserve.

          • coldtea2 days ago
            >We've done this, it was called the dark ages and it sucked and we moved past it.

            Well, the "dark ages" is now widely considered a misnomer, and that time is seen as an important era development-wise.

            • const_cast2 days ago
              But the development was very slow, and it was held back by policy and a stronghold by leaders onto the status-quo.
              • coldteaa day ago
                On the other hand, it was development and stability - in an era where the previous Roman system had collapsed.

                Whereas now many argue it's decline and regression in many areas compared to recent past.

        • sanderjd2 days ago
          I agree with the other replies that I've never been able to find any interesting ideas amidst his schlock, but I'm wondering what "many interesting ideas" you see, from your prospective? Just a couple examples would be useful. It's totally possible I've missed them because I haven't ever been able to engage with his writing.
          • fossuser2 days ago
            He's pretty thoughtful about how power is actually leveraged and has interesting insights around these ideas, particularly areas of democratic failure that I think are worth thinking about. I think his solutions are more questionable, but his writing is at least worth engaging with.

            I think people just dismiss him out of hand because he's a political enemy.

            • sanderjd2 days ago
              I'm worried I'm sealioning, but could you possibly point me to one of these thoughtful pieces? It's a lot to wade through for me to try to figure out what you're talking about without any pointers...

              I did read a decent amount of his "mencius moldbug" stuff back in the day, and I just wouldn't describe it the way you do in this comment, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.

              • fossuser2 days ago
                • sanderjd2 days ago
                  Hmmm, ok, I read this. Are there any parts of it that you find particularly thoughtful about power or areas of democratic failure that are worth thinking about?

                  I think we probably just fundamentally disagree here, because to me, this whole thing seems like drivel. Are there gems in there that I'm just not recognizing?

                  • fossuser2 days ago
                    The idea that stuck out to me is even if you repeal chevron deference and argue congress should be making laws like it’s supposed to, the outcome will be vague laws which then get interpreted by the courts, pushing the real legislation from administration technocrats that might at least be subject matter experts in the best case to unelected judges that probably don’t know anything.

                    The symbolic idea of who holds power and who actually holds power in practice are not the same.

                    There’s also the bit that doge is constrained in ways that make success unlikely (which has now been proved out).

                    • sanderjd2 days ago
                      Thanks, that's helpful. I agree that first point is interesting, but it's maybe the most mainstream view he expresses in the article. (The issue of judicial power is pretty commonly discussed by normie liberals as well!) But that's not really a knock against it. So fair enough, thanks for calling that one out!

                      I think the doge thing is silly though. It didn't fail because it was "constrained in ways that make success unlikely", it failed because: 1. There was obviously just arithmetically not enough money in discretionary spending to make more than a tiny dent in spending, and 2. They never made even the most cursory effort to improve efficiency, and just went with this ideological chainsaw approach. Maybe there's some version of the idea that was (and is) a good one, but it was always doomed to fail as conceived and led.

        • atemerev2 days ago
          I never found any of his ideas interesting. Unusual, maybe, but unusual does not mean interesting. I come from a country with a history of autocracy, and it has been an absolute dogma for me to not touch anything autocratic with a six-mile pole.

          Well, I hope the rest of the world now will get the memo too, before we'll need a world war to crystallize the lesson.

      • lambdaphagy2 days ago
        Fascism and Ayn Rand's political philosophy are pretty different from each other, however you may feel about either one. Not everything you dislike is the same bad thing.
        • CalChris2 days ago
          Only if you take Ayn Rand at face value.
    • benwerd2 days ago
      I mean, "interesting" but still autocratic. His old ideas were nonsense too; unworkable teenage thought experiments dressed up as serious proposals. His new work just happens to be internally inconsistent as well as bad in all the other ways it always was.
    • clueless2 days ago
      Precisely, I'm not sure why Curtis is kept being discussed when if you listened to him now, it's all nonsense.
      • sorcerer-mar2 days ago
        Because he says rich people should rule the world, ergo rich people like him and attempt to encode his very stupid ideas into our politics, ergo we all have to care what he says

        It’s really a testament to how astonishingly stupid some of those rich folks are that they find any of Yarvin’s work compelling.

        • cogman102 days ago
          And, to put this in perspective, there's 1 degree of separation between our current Vice president and Yarvin. I can guarantee that the two of them have had conversations about politics as Vance is quite close to Thiel who loves Yarvin.

          These rich people have very powerful connections.

        • Sabinus2 days ago
          That's what I've been wondering. How is this much different from Nixon's trickle down economics? An idea the wealthy are happy to promote because it protects their influence.
          • const_cast2 days ago
            More to the point, how is this any different than serfdom? The inevitable result of "optimize for the wealthy" seems to be that. And, well, we did that. And it sucked.

            I don't understand why we're reinventing feudalism over and over again and acting like it's novel. Giving all the tools to the wealthy doesn't make society a better place, and we've proved that. It decidedly stagnates everything, which, ironically, leads to very poor living conditions, including for the wealthy. So it's not even good for them, it's just self-destructive.

      • goatlover2 days ago
        We wouldn't but the broligarchs are influenced by his ideas, and those have common cause with Project 2025 and the current US administration.
    • 2 days ago
      undefined
    • p3rls2 days ago
      [flagged]
    • wyager2 days ago
      Ironically, the quality of Scott's work has taken a markedly sharper nosedive in the last decade than the quality of Yarvin's work.
      • indoordin0saur2 days ago
        He got associated with the "intellectual dark web" for occasionally having opinions outside of the mainstream. The NYTimes was even planning on writing a hit piece on him back in the day that scared him so bad he shut down his original site. I think his writing today lacks the sort of honesty or novelty it once had because he's very sensitive to being called out.
      • gr__or2 days ago
        I don't quite see it that way. Imo he's been to involved in anti-woke culture waring, but I still found him to be wonderfully interesting to read.
      • kiitos2 days ago
        In what universe?
      • queenkjuula day ago
        Hard to nose dive from rock bottom
    • blactuary2 days ago
      [flagged]
      • n2d42 days ago
        What makes Scott a crank?
        • evil-olive2 days ago
          pretending that there's a legitimate, good faith, reasonable-people-can-disagree debate about "race & IQ" is one of the most obvious giveaways.

          from January 2025 [0]:

          > Richard Lynn was a scientist who infamously tried to estimate the average IQ of every country.

          a bit of additional context from Wikipedia [1]:

          > Richard Lynn was a controversial English psychologist and self-described "scientific racist" who advocated for a genetic relationship between race and intelligence. He was the editor-in-chief of Mankind Quarterly, a white supremacist journal.

          he claims that Lynn's work is still "hotly debated" and links to an article in "Aporia Magazine" which is published by the "Human Diversity Foundation" [2]:

          > The Human Diversity Foundation (HDF) is a far-right company founded in 2022 to publish "race science" through the Aporia Magazine and Mankind Quarterly. It also publishes Edward Dutton's The Jolly Heretic podcast. Key persons of the HDF including its founder support remigration and white nationalism.

          the role that Alexander plays reminds me of the attempts in the early 2000s to "teach the controversy" [3] about evolution vs. creationism. there is no actual scientific debate, but people with a political axe to grind want to shift the Overton window and give the impression that there is one.

          0: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/how-to-stop-worrying-and-le...

          1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lynn

          2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Diversity_Foundation

          3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_the_Controversy

        • timmytokyo2 days ago
          • dogleash2 days ago
            That person is way too far down the rabbit hole themselves to give a decent criticism of Alexander.

            When someone's #1, heavy-hitting, come-out-swinging criticism amounts to "his group is not as smart as they think they are" then they're already done. They've cooked themselves. I read that paragraph and heard it in the mean girl voice they thought they were hiding.

            #2 is that his wrong ideas are immoral. #3 is that #2 draws the wrong crowd.

            It's not like I don't get the point. It's just written for an audience that already deep in that corner of the blogosphere.

            I'm sure they pump their fists at such a clean summing-up of why they hate him. But my eyes are glazing over.

          • rendang2 days ago
            This is just a preaching-to-the-choir description of the fact that Siskind does not hold 100% to egalitarian leftism. Unless you're already a doctrinaire egalitarian leftist, I don't see why reading this would change your opinion of him by a millimeter
            • timmytokyo2 days ago
              Yeah, I guess it's true that people who (1) like eugenics and "human biodiversity" (i.e., race science), and (2) think neoreactionism is "edgy and cool" are not egalitarian or leftist.
              • rendang2 days ago
                Not necessarily, egalitarian cultures like N Europe practice eugenics through selective abortion of the disabled.
            • jrflowers2 days ago
              > Unless you're already a doctrinaire egalitarian leftist, I don't see why reading this would change your opinion of him by a millimeter

              It seems possible that if someone wasn’t familiar with Scott’s position on race science, they could read about his position on race science and then have that influence their opinion of him.

              Out of curiosity, are you lumping everybody into two groups? The way your sentence was worded it sounds like there are on one hand people that believe in race science, and on the other hand “doctrinaire egalitarian leftists”. If the only qualification required to be a “doctrinaire egalitarian leftist” is “not believing in race science”, then you’ve kind of just said “Unless [you don’t believe in race science], I don’t see why reading this would change your opinion of him by a millimeter”, which might actually kind of underscore some people’s issue with him.

              • rendang2 days ago
                [flagged]
                • jrflowers2 days ago
                  Thank you for clarifying that you are using the term “doctrinaire egalitarian leftist” to refer to any individual that does not believe in race science, or more specifically any individual that doesn’t agree with Scott Siskind’s position on race science.

                  I’m personally not super familiar with that label and assumed because of the definitions of those words that it would have some sort of philosophical or ideological connotation — but since a person needn’t be doctrinaire, a philosophical egalitarian, or a leftist to not be a fan of Scott’s blog, when you say “doctrinaire egalitarian leftist” here you mean it like when a Juggalo says somebody isn’t “down with the clowns”

                  I’d pick another word for non-Codexers or Scott Thots (I’m guessing, I don’t know what label your fandom self-applies here), as someone could mistakenly think that you are trying to make some sort of point. (Which we know that you are not, since your original post was essentially just “Bringing up Scott’s positions on race science won’t change the opinions of the fans of Scott’s positions on race science” just phrased in a maximally-confusing and belabored way)

                  • rendanga day ago
                    I've read only perhaps 1% of Siskind's work and don't have a particularly close familiarity with him or opinion on his work, and from that position I'm pointing out that the blog post is not particularly persuasive. It just states that Siskind does not hold to the same presuppositions as the author without making an argument for those presuppositions
                    • jrflowersa day ago
                      > I've read only perhaps 1% of Siskind's work and don't have a particularly close familiarity with him

                      I see the point you’re trying to make here and I’m sorry I’m just not interested in becoming part of your fandom. I don’t really care how little you feel someone needs to read of Scott’s blog to find race science to be so compelling

          • ralfd2 days ago
            This seems to boil down to that Elizabeth Sandifer, a self described "middle-aged trans anarchist", believes https://www.astralcodexten.com is "fertile grounds for white nationalist recruitment".

            This is just wrong and anyone can visit the blog to see for themselves.

            • TimorousBestie2 days ago
              Yes, read the comments on ACX where Steve Sailer of VDARE dog-whistles as loudly as he can.

              Read Scott’s glowing review of _Albion’s Seed_.

        • blactuary2 days ago
          The things he says about race and gender, for starters
        • jrflowers2 days ago
          Well, for one thing, that comment is in response to a link to a blog post that Scott wrote about how The Feudalism Blogger’s old posts about how feudalism is good were better than The Feudalism Blogger’s new posts about how feudalism is good.

          He sort of panders to an audience that fancies themselves much smarter than the average person, and as such categorically demand opinions that average people do not hold — no matter how sensible they might be. To accommodate that requirement he repackages existing (more usually conservative/libertarian) cultural gripes by pairing them with some light criticism and branding it as some sort of enlightened centrist/Third Way perspective. This sort of practice in general has lost some of its illusory appeal in recent years since so many previously “politically inscrutable” rich and influential folks dropped their centrist/apolitical trappings and came out as staunchly right-wing.

          That being said there are quite a few readers that still want to play the “Are they right wing? Are they left wing? Are they something magical and ascendant?” game, and audience capture is a real phenomenon, so the entrenched players have no reason for introspection or change.

        • fossuser2 days ago
          [flagged]
          • sanderjd2 days ago
            I have noticed this too. I've only ever read him off and on, and I get the feeling that he must have written something during one of the periods I wasn't reading his still at all that got him "canceled", but I have no idea what it was.
            • Karrot_Kream2 days ago
              When the American Left split into progressive and liberal camps in the mid 2010s, the rationalist and adjacent communities underwent a huge internal conflict. Scott and a lot of his orbit tend to stay on the liberal side which these days is called and often calls itself "centrist". The aftermath of the split has had pretty huge effects in most Western spaces. A lot of the progressive left is really angry at the centrist left wing and many centrists think the progressive left is misguided and hate on them. The hate that Scott gets is largely a fallout from this schism.
              • sanderjd2 days ago
                He seems to get more hate than more mainstream people on the more centrist side of that split... Granted, they do all get hate, and your description does resonate. But he still seems to be an outlier.
                • Karrot_Kream2 days ago
                  He was considered a core, visible member of the rationalist community from well before the split. For better or for worse he is considered a figurehead of the movement. With the acrimony of the split there was no way he was going to escape unscathed no matter which side he ended up on just by sheer visibility of his writing.
                  • sanderjd2 days ago
                    But it's not rationalists mad about this split who seem to have outsized vitriol for him. It seems to me that it's people who were not involved in that community to begin with.
                    • Karrot_Kream2 days ago
                      My read has always been that the angry folks were always rationalist adjacent even if they weren't rationalists themselves. There's a lot of people in my IRL network, for example, who are 1-3 degrees of separation from Scott or Yud but have never posted about them or in the rationalist blogspace at all.
                • fossuser2 days ago
                  Progressives reserve the greatest hate for those they consider “traitors” - it’s why they also hate Ritchie Torres.
                  • sanderjd2 days ago
                    This doesn't really track with respect to Scott Alexander though? He hasn't ever been a progressive, so how is he a traitor?
                    • fossusera day ago
                      In the schism the other person replying to you is talking about, Scott didn’t go fully into the far left progressive ideology when it happened so therefore he’s a traitor since he should “know better”.

                      One tenant of the progressive thinking is if you know their argument then you must agree with them because they’re “right”. So you’re either ignorant or evil - there’s no room for smart people that just think they’re wrong. They know Scott isn’t ignorant so therefore he must be evil.

                      My other comment got flag killed because I mentioned the core group I think is responsible for this kind of thinking within that community.

                      • fossusera day ago
                        They also flag killed my root level reply to you for this thread, it's an insufferable group.
            • fossuser2 days ago
              [flagged]
          • blactuary2 days ago
            He is indeed a crank, and you immediately going to "lefty haters" says more about you than anything objective about Scott
          • indoordin0saur2 days ago
            What's worse though is that he responds to these unhinged haters by modifying his writing (and seemingly his world views) to cause them less offense.
            • cassepipe9 hours ago
              He is so dishonest that he has a page listing his old mistakes: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/mistakes

              Do you know anyone else doing that ? But he is also capable of changing his mind if he presented with contradcitions or a better rationale ?

              It's crazy that even though you are considerate, honest, try to argument and avoid culture war, you will end with some haters no matter what

      • cassepipe2 days ago
        [flagged]
        • TimorousBestie2 days ago
          I’ve read LessWrong on and off since 2014. Read SSC and ACX semi-regularly. Scott’s a crank. He writes convincingly, he understands charisma and style, but he just can’t hold his own in an intellectual exchange.

          Just last week he and Tyler Cowen of Marginial Revolution got into a dispute over USAID and DOGE and the degree to which Scott fails over and over again to read otherwise simple sentences is staggering.

          • cassepipe9 hours ago
            > He writes convincingly, he understands charisma and style, but he just can’t hold his own in an intellectual exchange.

            Yes, it's convincing because he actually cares to craft a reasoning that you can follow for yourself and definitely not charisma and style

            This is just a biased retelling of what happened. Scott responded to Cowen's response. So it's just like... your opinion, man.

            I encourage anyone to just go read the exchange and decide for themselves.

          • sph2 days ago
            [flagged]
            • TimorousBestie2 days ago
              I’m responding to

              > For what it's worth, I don't think anyone familiar with Scott Alexander's writings would characterize him as a crank.

              with a counter-example. I don’t particularly care about the meta-point they are attempting to make.

      • user9822 days ago
        The last decade has hammered in that you ignore the cranks at your own peril, because closing your eyes doesn't make them disappear.
        • kmoser2 days ago
          Ignoring them only works when everyone ignores them from the beginning. Once they gain traction, it's no longer an option.
        • throwaway298124 hours ago
          [dead]
  • esseph2 days ago
    Flagged, get the fuck out of here.

    The fact that it's flagged means someone wants it hidden.

    If you don't want to read the post you don't have to, nobody is making you.

    • At least cockatoos drinking from water fountains is still on the front page.
  • mmustapic2 days ago
    The most amazing thing about Yarvis ideas, and the article itself, is that they clearly say that CEOs are antidemocratic autocrats. Why should this be accepted in a democratic society?
    • rendang2 days ago
      Couldn't you say the same thing about parents?
      • mmustapic2 days ago
        No. In most countries there are laws restricting what parents can do.

        On the other hand, nobody is proposing a father figure running a country, so I don't see the connection here.

        • coldtea2 days ago
          >nobody is proposing a father figure running a country

          Nobody? Isn't that one of the oldest job descriptions or similes for a ruler?

          Hell, even Stalin was addressed as "loving father".

        • rendang2 days ago
          You're saying that CEOs shouldn't be accepted in a democratic society? Because CEOs also have laws restricting what they can do
    • goatlover2 days ago
      It should not. It's crazy that we even need to have this conversation, but here we are. Big question is whether Trump is what holds all this together, and whether it falls apart when he's gone.
  • exizt882 days ago
    One of my favorite things about Curtis Yarvin is that one of his main ideas is laughably easy to prove wrong. He says that whenever we go into the past, the previous generation seems to be more "right-wing" than the current one. Which is almost comically wrong. For example, you get Victorian Era being much more conservative than its predecessor, Georgian Era. Same goes for Christian Roman Empire vs Pagan Roman Empire, Nazi Germany vs Weimar Germany, etc etc. There are literally dozens of examples. It seems that Yarvin genuinely doesn't know any of these high school-level facts.
    • cjbgkagh2 days ago
      I'm pretty sure he gives those as examples of 'restorations' as exceptions to the general trend of society trending left.
    • bee_rider2 days ago
      I actually don’t even know what this means, in the sense that “right wing” and “left wing” are sort of… relative and semi-modern concepts.

      Like, more right wing as in more conservative? More religious? More monarchist? Something about seating arrangements in France?

    • coldtea2 days ago
      Well, it's not about being monotonically the case year-over-year, but the overal "weighted average" direction of the vector pointing towards less right-wing.

      Obviously e.g. the Weimar youth was liberal and partying and then Germans turned to fascism in the 30s. But that was a temporary setback, not the general direction of change. Overall Germans of 20th century are much less conservative and right wing than Germans of the 19th century, same for 18th century and so on.

      It's also not really about antiquity, but about the arrow of modernity (say, 16th century onwards). The concept of left/right wing is not something applicable to Pagans and Romans (although both were way more "right wing" than the Christian era if we try to judge them under this anachronism).

  • rukuu0012 days ago
    From a recent submission[1]:

    > The term itself [stupidity], he said, wasn’t a description of intellectual acuity, but of social responsibility

    1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44112265

  • monksy2 days ago
    This is amazing how this guy became a challenging individual to a poltical bias in tech to a evil guy on a national scale pretty quickly.
  • arp2422 days ago
    > The eternal political problems of legitimacy, accountability, and succession would be solved by a secret board with the power to select and recall the otherwise all-powerful C.E.O. of each sovereign corporation, or SovCorp.

    If the prize is being "all-powerful", then you can just assassinate your way to king-CEO, after which you're immune. This system is incredibly easy to hack, and has happened countless of times throughout history.

    Giving people cryptographic keys to disarm weapons is not going to change much about that and is just hand-waving with extra steps. Try disarming my knife with your cryptography. Oh no, I repeatedly stabbed you in the chest before you could enter your passphrase. Too bad.

    This is like communists: "yeah sure, in the past it ended in spectacular failure, but this time we'll get it right!" (if they're not outright denying things such as Stalin's purges from ever happening that is).

    What strikes me is just how incredibly naïve, dumb, and unsophisticated all of this is.

    Yarvin seems to have convinced himself that he's always the smartest person in the room, always acts fully rational, and that everything he says is a singularity of pure logic. It's easy to end up with some very curious ideas that way, especially if you combine that with his psychological ... issues.

    Once you start dismissing people that disagree as "too dumb to understand the ideas" or consider giving them "Voight-Kampff test" to prove they're not "NPCs" you know you're off the deep end.

    If nothing else, all of this is useful to read as a cautionary tale: how you too, as a smart person, can believe some really dumb stuff (to say nothing on the morality of it all).

  • 2 days ago
    undefined
  • mountainriver2 days ago
    His actual answer to preventing a Hitler or Stalin arising from autocracy is that he would hopes it doesn’t happen.

    What an absolute joke

  • thrance2 days ago
    His tenets would be at home in the mind of a 16th century european king, and yet they now make up the core of American politics.

    There is no way America shakes this insanity off easily, it will require a long time and (lots of) suffering.

    • throw48472852 days ago
      It's the 17th not 16th Century, but I can't help think about the War of the Three Kingdoms. Already by that point the notion of a Divine Right of Kings was dinged enough that they could lop the head off of Charles I. And then, less than 40 years later, Parliament could trade out their king for a foreign one whom they liked better.

      It just goes to show that the idea of a stable hereditary monarchy wielding absolute power has never been the whole picture. Monarchism is a smokescreen, replacing the messy reality of democratic life with an illusion that has never held up to historical scrutiny.

    • suddenlybananas2 days ago
      A 16th century king would probably be a bit more erudite at least
  • TSiege2 days ago
    Why is this post being flagged?
    • rukuu0012 days ago
      Yeah it’s annoying isn’t it.

      It’s pertinent to YC, and topical because if the current US administration.

      The guy’s ideas are poison, but also act as a kind of Rosetta Stone for interpreting nonsense conclusions sometimes presented by tech leaders, politicians etc.

    • sanderjd2 days ago
      Presumably because it's mostly political in nature and people here are generally tired of the whole Curtis Yarvin thing. We've had like an extra ten to fifteen years of hearing about this guy than most people...

      I didn't flag it, and clearly I'm here commenting, but I'm also sympathetic to people flagging this.

      • TSiege2 days ago
        Given his salience atm and his presence here that you mentioned, I believe flagging this post reflects poorly on hackernews
        • sanderjd2 days ago
          I don't really disagree. I just think "ugh, so sick of this guy" is an understandable gut reaction for people to have.
  • disambiguation2 days ago
    I've never read moldbug but I know people who know people in certain circles - and I can't tell if his ideas genuinely captivate the imagination of the elite, or if he's a kind of Judas goat, because the non-elite are definitely captivated by his ideas. I feel like his work came at a time when the Right lost its core conservative values. Libertarianism was poised as the successor but was defeated, leaving a vacuum for something new. I think yarvin's ideas also satisfies the right's need for something intellectual to stand up to left wing ideology, but there's the possibility that its simply an intellectual trap - consistent and elaborate, but untrue due to false assumptions. Strange times.
    • pasa day ago
      ideologies usually perform better if they are inconsistent (or "not even wrong" and vague), so they can serve the emotional/rhetorical needs of the group promulgating them, no?
      • Yeah rhetorical flexibility is probably an important ingredient for an effective social order (not necessarily a moral one) but you have to consider what it takes to embrace an idea. My sense is that ideologies usually emerge bottom up from individual values - anything top down runs the risk of being misaligned, and therefore incompatible and won't be accepted. Further, if its too inconsistent or incorrect then its vulnerable to opposition and is no longer "the least bad choice in the room."
  • hexator2 days ago
    • JFingleton2 days ago
      Doesn't seem to work? It's the pay walled site.
  • AnimalMuppet2 days ago
    1. Yarvin's system may work well if you put perfect people in place, and keep perfect people in place. Well, that's true of a lot of systems. Yarvin finds flaws in democracy with imperfect people, but his system needs perfect people in order to work. That's... not an improvement.

    2. Even if you have these perfect people, they're going to be rare. Who's going to put them in power? The mass of non-perfect people? Why are they going to do that?

    3. Yarvin fails his own test. He's looking for people whose blogs create no negative reactions? Yarvin stands self-condemned; he's not worthy to say how things should be run.

  • 2 days ago
    undefined
  • Hikikomori2 days ago
    The society of Snow Crash is a dystopia, not something we should want to implement.
    • roughly2 days ago
      The biggest mistake the Cyberpunk authors made was making their dystopia look so cool and then assuming we’d actually read the book.
    • A_D_E_P_T2 days ago
      It's more The Diamond Age than Snow Crash. The "Patchwork" of Yarvin and Land maps pretty neatly to Stephenson's Clades -- micronations as voluntary societies.
      • jobs_throwaway2 days ago
        TBH Diamond Age seems pretty cool, other than the Fists

        I think/hope we will see something similar to voluntary societies in the future. Nation states are too heterogenous to row in the same direction. Stronger ethics are needed

        • wat100002 days ago
          Locked-down technology, courts where you don't get to present a defense and executions are carried out immediately without even telling the person, widespread illiteracy, violent revolution, masses of child soldiers.... Definitely "cool to read about" rather than "cool to live in."
    • MomsAVoxell2 days ago
      Especially that whole ‘listening to reason’ thing ..

      Well. I dunno, actually.

      In some ways, I do want The Feed. But in other ways, I definitely don’t want Drummers. Okay, some aspects of Drummers.

      • jobs_throwaway2 days ago
        The Feed would be cool, the Primer would be fantastic, and a lot of the voluntary societies would be awesome. Diamond age is the most compelling vision for the future of recent popular sci-fi that I've found
        • tannschnauzer2 days ago
          The Diamond Age is yet another terrible future that many readers take as awesome, for reasons I can never figure out.

          The Primer that everyone likes is mostly just a human remote-teaching—certainly, the best parts of its outcomes are from that. One specific person caring very much and dedicating lots of time and focus to teaching this kid.

          Meanwhile, the mass-production Primer without that aspect is just a brainwashing device.

    • lokimedes2 days ago
      There’s an epic battle raging between Gibson’s Cyberpunks and Clarke’s Spacefarers.

      The former seems to be winning.

  • 1vuio0pswjnm72 days ago
    https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/red-pill-pr...

    Another dropout; never finished his PhD:

    "At 15, Yarvin entered college as part of Johns Hopkins' longitudinal Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth. A year later, he transferred to Brown University in Rhode Island as a legacy admission to the Ivy League liberal arts college, where his parents had met in the mid-'60s. After graduating, it was on to a computer science Ph.D. program at Berkeley. He dropped out after a year and a half to take a tech job at the height of the go-go '90s dot-com era."

    Without the Silicon Valley and the internet, he and his theories have no life. Neither can stand on its own without computers.

    He cannot turn off the computer. Without the computer, he becomes irrelevant.

    Not suprising if he provides entertainment for so-called "tech" company investors and employees.

    • 1vuio0pswjnm72 days ago
      "When I ask people to answer that question, I ask them to look around the room and point out everything in the room that was made by a monarchy, because these things that we call companies are actually little monarchies. You're looking around, and you see, for example, a laptop, and that laptop was made by Apple, which is a monarchy."

      A computer. What a coincidence.

      His entire world revolves around computers. As such, his theories are detached from reality.

      https://www.nytimmes.com/2025/01/22/opinion/trump-vance-yarv...

  • ianbicking2 days ago
    Seeing him back in the news made me think more about Urbit, his decentralized computing project. For a bit of a discussion of the technical parts of Urbit this is decent: https://wejn.org/2021/02/urbit-good-bad-insane/

    I have this feeling that Nock, effectively the bytecode of Urbit, is inspired by Paul Graham's Hundred-Year Language essay: https://paulgraham.com/hundred.html – for instance Nock only defines minimal math operations, as proposed in the essay.

    The thing is, Paul's ideas in that essay were quite bad, based on a mathematical aesthetic that is both inefficient and aesthetically a poor fit for computing. That's fine for an essay, you throw some ideas out there and maybe they work or maybe they don't.

    Then in Urbit Yarvin actually built the thing. And it's _terrible_. Hilariously bad. Some of the worst architecture you'll ever see. As a minor example they have a hexadecimal integer type... I understand i32, i64, etc., but a hexadecimal type is something you come up with if you don't understand how numbers work. There's literally a hundred other things just as embarrassing as that in the design.

    It's fine to take a bad idea and explore it. But he didn't just try out the idea, he got people to invest, to develop the system, emotionally commit to this thing. Seeing community posts is sad, it's naive folks hoping to find a home and seeing some phrases that connect with them, and they don't know enough to see Urbit for the fraud that it is. The obscurantist terminology helps maintain the fraud, since people think there must be something there if only they could understand it... but there isn't, and most of them will never understand it. Every cool demo is just a regular web frontend with a half-assed Urbit backend.

    All of which is to say, I think this is Yarvin's schtick: grab onto some ideas, explore them in a way that is so confusing that it hids how moronic the ideas are, while successfully appealing to some latent desire in the audience.

  • 2OEH8eoCRo02 days ago
    What a surprise, the guy who thinks CEOs should rule the country is popular among CEOs.
  • Apocryphon2 days ago
    How far we've come since a dozen years ago, when TechCrunch was the first mainstream outlet to observe Moldbug and his ideological currents:

    Geeks for Monarchy: The Rise of the Neoreactionaries (techcrunch.com) 54 points by davidgerard on Nov 23, 2013 | 109 comments

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6785801

  • twiddling2 days ago
    [flagged]
    • kragen2 days ago
      Please don't post glib dismissals here.
      • ceejayoz2 days ago
        It's not that glib, it's a point made in the article.

        > He found more of a community on Usenet, a precursor to today’s online forums. But even in groups like talk.bizarre, where intellectual peacocking was the norm, he stood out for his desire to dominate.

        • foobarian2 days ago
          This guy reminds me of another breed of oldschool Usenet creature, the crackpot physicist. These individuals are very smart, and often have advanced degrees, but for some reason have these crazy ideas that almost seem like their brains have gone a bit off the rails. The content is typically very verbose, hiding the weaknesses in the volume, and also seems very alluring and can attract a bit of a following.

          And then just how a lot of brilliant physicists have switched over to software because it pays a lot better, seems like this guy switched to political crackpottery for the audience. :-)

        • shkkmo2 days ago
          That is not what what "glib" means. The comment is still a shallow, glib dismisal and doesn't add anything to the conversation.
      • UncleMeat2 days ago
        I’m very sorry that I don’t want to spend time making a person who wants me dead seem like a person worth taking seriously.
    • nehal3m2 days ago
      I don't think this even is their final form...
      • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF2 days ago
        I think it is. This stood out to me:

        > As his ideas have been surrealized in DOGE and Trump has taken to self-identifying as a king, one might expect to find Yarvin in an exultant mood. In fact, he has spent the past few months fretting that the moment will go to waste. “If you have a Trump boner right now, enjoy it,” he wrote two days after the election. “It’s as hard as you’ll ever get.” What many see as the most dangerous assault on American democracy in the nation’s history Yarvin dismisses as woefully insufficient—a “vibes coup.” Without a full-blown autocratic takeover, he believes, a backlash is sure to follow.

        And I don't think he's wrong; the longer it takes for the reality of a takeover to manifest, the less likely it is to happen.

        • nehal3m2 days ago
          I agree with you, yeah. Burned and buried would be his final form then, is what I was getting at. Sorry for not communicating that clearly.
        • throwaway57522 days ago
          No, his premises were just wrong. He's just blaming others rather than question the foundations of his belief system when they failed to be predictive. He's as simple to analyze as the people he looks down on.

          Nothing is worse for a dilettantish ideologue than to have their ideas put into practice and have to face reality with scrutiny.

        • krapp2 days ago
          I think it will happen, but not under Trump. We've normalized certain aspects of authoritarianism now: the unitary executive, the enforcement of political ideology and removal of political dissidents, and once the US gets rid of birthright citizenship Constitutional rights become entirely arbitrary, and anyone can be sent to the camps. We've normalized political violence after Jan. 20th. Palantir will have an extensive database created from all of DOGE's data. A third of the country wants it, and they live where the votes matter most. All of the pieces will be in place.

          It just requires a competent leader and a movement based on ideology, not grift. Once Trump is out of the way the true believers will take over. Thanks to the weakening of the Federal government it will happen at the grassroots level with state governments in partnership with tech companies consolidating a power base, then "retaking" Washington. If there happens to be a Democratic administration to pin some anti-leftist moral panic or two on, so much the better.

        • thrance2 days ago
          Indeed, we'll have one last neoliberal half-competent democratic leadership that will undo ~10% of the damage Trump did, and then we'll have the true final boss. The current fascist was ok, but the next fascist will be the reaaal deal.

          Much suffering is to be found in the future. I find solace in the fact that all fascist states eventually crumble under the weight of their irrationality and incompetence.

  • cempaka2 days ago
    From a 2014 email from Yarvin to Thiel: “One of our hidden advantages is that these people wouldn’t believe in a conspiracy if it hit them over the head (this is perhaps the best measure of the decline of the Left).”

    On that, he's not wrong!

  • tehjoker2 days ago
    It's crazy how insane right wingers get so much puff from the media, and socialists get very very little despite having pro-social ideas instead of anti-social ones.
  • LAC-Tech2 days ago
    I always thought Yarvin was an interesting writer. Like a lot of people on the political fringe (and I've seen this from libertarians and socialists as well) he's fantastic and diagnosing problems and making us look at our own system with new eyes, but rather fumbles when it comes to workable solutions.

    He also seems to lose all biting insight and critique when it comes to one certain state he has a legal right to be a citizen of. I'll leave this for readers to find out which one.

    I've never made much of his apparent association to JD Vance. Maybe this is the sort of street cred stuff vance liked to surround himself with, much as Obama did with his Bill Ayers association, but I doubt it affected either men much in practice.

  • archagon2 days ago
    On the subject of Yarvin, I really appreciate FrankWilhoit's take[1]:

    > Yarvin is only another horribly damaged person, squealing in pain in a pseudointellectual vocabulary. He has neither knowledge nor insight, but a gift for miming these things. The questions are, first, how might we stop so many children from being psychically tortured so that their minds become piles of bloody shred like this, and then second, why does anybody take it at face value when, rarely, one of them learns to scream in sounds that mimic high discourse?

    [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43459055

    • kiitos2 days ago
      Extraordinarily good stuff! Thanks for sharing, I haven't seen it before.
    • 2 days ago
      undefined
    • bitwize2 days ago
      "Who hurt you, sweaty?"
  • antisthenes2 days ago
    It's pretty sad that loonies like this get a platform at all.

    The ultimate irony is that New Yorker in this case is writing an article about him, mocking his views...yet legitimizing them at the same time by associating their name with this kind of person at all.

    How is this guy different from any other of the thousands moderately-successful tech people with an obscure hobby project (Urbit). Just because of his far-out-there views?

    The only fascinating thing here is the phenomenon that no matter what nonsense you come up with, someone on the Internet will agree with you, think it's a good thing, and maybe even form a fan club.

    • _verandaguy2 days ago
      His views are being implemented by the sitting US government. I understand the moral dilemma of it not being good to platform and broadcast these views, but under the circumstances, I'd argue there's also a duty to inform people of this looming danger.
    • JoshTriplett2 days ago
      When someone is obscure and wrong, sometimes it's better to avoid amplifying them even through refutation.

      When someone is popular-with-people-in-power and wrong, sunlight is an important disinfectant.

    • runako2 days ago
      > How is this guy different

      Extremely high-profile & powerful people listen to his ideas & are influenced by his beliefs.

    • indoordin0saur2 days ago
      Gotta keep people on your side by reminding them that there are scary scary ideas out there.
    • timewizard2 days ago
      > yet legitimizing them at the same time by associating their name with this kind of person at all.

      Discussing things does not "legitimize" them. No one is required to read The New Yorker.

      > Just because of his far-out-there views?

      Probably the length of time he's held and promulgated them.

      > someone on the Internet will agree with you

      We used to think that connecting disparate groups of people together was a good thing. I have no idea when that changed but apparently it's the style now to use the awesome power of the internet to deny people their individuality out of gross fear.

      > think it's a good thing

      You should have to prove it's a bad thing. Not the other way around.

      • antisthenes2 days ago
        > Discussing things does not "legitimize" them. No one is required to read The New Yorker.

        Well, good thing you put that in quotes, because you seem to be using some definition of the word legitimize that is only apparent to you and not the general public. Discussing things does legitimize them, because it allots them time that could have been used for something else.

        > Probably the length of time he's held and promulgated them.

        Many people hold views their entire lives, or at least decades. I don't see New Yorker or Wikipedia write articles about them.

        > You should have to prove it's a bad thing. Not the other way around.

        You understand what context means, or just trolling?

    • freejazz2 days ago
      >How is this guy different from any other of the thousands moderately-successful tech people with an obscure hobby project (Urbit). Just because of his far-out-there views?

      Did you read the article? Because he sits in immediate proximity to the power of the executive branch of the federal gov't, wherein a number of its most prominent members are devout fans of his who espouse his work...

  • black_132 days ago
    [dead]
  • DueDilligence2 days ago
    [dead]
  • shmerl2 days ago
    [flagged]
  • absurdo2 days ago
    [flagged]
    • UncleMeat2 days ago
      You are welcome to defend rising fascism if you want. People will justly criticize you, of course.

      What happened to intellectual seriousness? Why should you be so frightened of people criticizing you?

      This is consistent with my expectation of the future of fascism. The appearance of seriousness but once you have a gun pointed in my face the presence of discussion will be dropped in favor of a bullet in my skull.

      • freedomben2 days ago
        I don't like Yarvin's ideas that I've heard, but GP has a point. There's almost no point to posting something that will just get downvoted quickly (which any defense of Yarvin certainly would), regardless of whether it makes any interesting points. Once it's dead it won't get much if any interaction. It's not about being afraid of people criticizing, it's about expending the effort to write a quality comment that won't be viewed or engaged by anyone.

        I do think we on HN have gotten way too reflexively downvoting of opinions we disagree with. IMHO downvoting should be used like a moderation tool to downrank low effort/spammy or factually/objectively incorrect posts that don't contribute anything interesting to the discussion, not as a lazy way of expressing our disagreement.

        > This is consistent with my expectation of the future of fascism. The appearance of seriousness but once you have a gun pointed in my face the presence of discussion will be dropped in favor of a bullet in my skull.

        You could dismiss almost any political ideology with this. Certainly there's a lot of people who experienced this in the USSR, North Korea, China, and more, and those are/were hardly fascist governments.

        • UncleMeat2 days ago
          Yarvin’s views spread on hackernews and reddit. The world would be a better place if he was just downvoted to hell initially. I will not participate in something that we already know led to harm.

          Academics and anti fascist activists should study authoritarians. But in some random web forum the person boosting these ideologies isn’t engaged in any sort of meaningful anti fascism. They are at best a useful rube and at worst genuinely advocating for these illiberal positions.

          • absurdoa day ago
            The broader issue here seems to be that C.Y. isn’t a random online person venting, in that allegedly the VP endorses his stances [citation needed]. If he was a random kook with a blog nobody knew, we would pay no attention to it.

            But actively suppressing dissident speech is indeed the slippery slope, and he may get more endorsements as a result. Plus, it just looks bad to silence opposition because it makes the anti-fascists look like fascists. This has been addressed in one of the other comments.

            Therefore the way you handle these types of situations may count for a lot. Or it may count for nothing and the response is overblown. Seemingly, it’s worth something given the amount of attention he is getting. Choose wisely.

            Edit: I should point out that the same dismissal and suppression has led to 2 terms of Trump. So maybe there is a lesson to be learned rather than closing eyes and putting hands on ears like what this thread has exhibited.

            • UncleMeata day ago
              I really do not know how "downvotes on hackernews" can be interepreted as "actively suppressing dissident speech."

              And no, I do not believe that downvotes on web forums is what led to Trump. Not even a little.

        • goatlover2 days ago
          It probably has a lot to do with Yarvin's influence at least partially leading the tech CEOs and the current administration down a similar authoritarian path as the USSR, North Korea, China. Or maybe better comparison, Putin's Russian and Orban's Hungary.

          Why should we take those ideas seriously in liberal democratic societies? We don't take Mein Kampf's ideas seriously.

          • krapp2 days ago
            I don't know about other liberal democratic societies, but there are plenty of people in the US who take Mein Kampf's ideas seriously, and there have been since it was published. Hitler credited America's genocide against Native Americans, segregation and eugenics ideals as an inspiration in it.

            American culture has never been entirely averse to authoritarianism, so long as it sends the correct signals (white majority, Christian sympathy, anti-government.) There will always be a significant number of Americans taking such ideas seriously, this is simply inevitable in a culture whose second most foundational principle is the right to shoot people with guns.

      • username3322112 days ago
        When it comes to rising fascism, the political mainstream that you so passionately defend and is currently having having apoplectic fits doesn't have the best record, does it?

        If you remember the 2000s, there was a great deal of consternation with respect of George Bush, his anti-terrorism laws, etc. He was clearly marked as fascist who was going to establish a dictatorship. That clearly didn't happen.

        Meanwhile, after the fascist Bush was overthrown, the Obama administration found it wise to reset relations with the government of Vladimir Putin, which had already invaded neighboring Georgia.

        In fact, virtually all the steps in the annihilation of Russian democracy were clearly supported by the political and administrative class that currently seeks to insinuate the present American government is fascist (and in the pay of Putin), going as far back as Yeltsin sending his tanks against parliament in 93.

        And that's just a recent example. There are worse ones. If you listen to mainstream political scholarship the Committee for Union and Progress should be the furthest thing from nazi ideology.

        Which is why you should be silent in this discussion. Curtis Yarvin may be a fascist, or he may not. In any case, your opinion is just noise. You do not know what fascism is, and neither do the people that form your opinion (the writers in the New Yorker for example).

        If you were to support a resistance movement, the government that you would fight to bring about is more likely to engage in ethnic extermination than the "fascist" regime that was overthrown.

        • UncleMeat2 days ago
          The US has ample evil within it and has a long history of authoritarian monstrosity. I also spend time and money fighting illiberalism within the existing system.

          The problems within the US do not justify constructing a system that has illiberalism as a goal, which will permit no possible internal resistance to authoritarianism.

          I am not saying that Yarvin’s state is the only one that will kill me. I am saying that it is substantially more likely to do so.

        • [dead]
    • reubenswartz2 days ago
      How exactly would you suggest standing up for Yarvin?
    • hansjorg2 days ago
      Why are all the fascist tough guys so afraid of criticism, or even just of internet downvotes?

      This is a central insight into their mindset. They are so incredibly mentally weak.

    • wat100002 days ago
      Why would you expect anything but overwhelming negativity towards someone who explicitly wants to enact a dictatorship?
    • 2 days ago
      undefined
  • antithesizer2 days ago
    They're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for weird right-wing gurus/boogie men these days.

    Nick Land where have you gone? Your house is in disarray.

    • 92834092322 days ago
      JD Vance is a Yarvin devotee and has repeatedly given credibility to his ideas. Good thing JD Vance is a nobody and doesn't have a position of power.
  • indoordin0saur2 days ago
    For what it's worth his writing is very thought provoking and novel. I'd recommend anyone bored of mainstream groupthink take a look at it.
    • UncleMeata day ago
      There are unlimited odious beliefs that are outside of mainstream groupthink. Simply being different is not meaningful. The people advocating for mass murder of as many people as possible to end the human race are also outside of mainstream groupthink but I’d prefer not to be murdered by then.
    • declan_roberts2 days ago
      It's been difficult since ~2020 to truly read pieces that are heterodox. Everyone who was painting outside the lines was effectively erased from the polite society of the online squares.

      Yarvis doesn't even touch many of the existing third rails today.

      • sanderjd2 days ago
        lol, this is the opposite of the case. It has never ever been easier to consume content (text, audio, video, whatever) outside the mainstream.
        • declan_roberts2 days ago
          The president of the United States was kicked off Twitter in 2020. Parler was removed from the App Store in 2020.

          "Now" is a lot different than 4-5 years ago.

          • UncleMeata day ago
            And Trump managed to create an entire replacement Twitter for him to run.

            Moderation from various platforms is not the same as silencing people. It is vastly easier for fascists to share their evil today than ever before in history.

          • const_cast2 days ago
            .. which are actions by private institutions, not affronts to free speech. And, might I remind everyone, where because of legitimate calls to violence which did actually result in a real insurrection, for real.

            I mean, it's not like these were just empty words. People did actually die. Donald Trump did, and still does, repeat a lot of lies with the intention of sowing chaos and violence.

          • sanderjd2 days ago
            ... what is your point with these anecdotes? Neither of those things made it less possible to find out what Donald Trump or a bunch of groypers think about anything.
      • indoordin0saur2 days ago
        Yes. It's quite bad, but even if you're a die-hard left liberal, or libertarian or whatever, Yarvin's ideas are a great exercise. He points out all sorts of failure modes in Democratic society that don't seem to get talked about by other political theorists. For example, the way in which power is so widely distributed means that anyone who manages to come to a powerful position is strongly incentivized to spend all their efforts simply maintaining their power lest they quickly get removed and replaced by someone more power hungry. This just seems like a feature of a representative democracy and one, that in order avoid, we would need to think very hard about.
        • trealira2 days ago
          >For example, the way in which power is so widely distributed means that anyone who manages to come to a powerful position is strongly incentivized to spend all their efforts simply maintaining their power lest they quickly get removed and replaced by someone more power hungry.

          I don't see what's wrong with that in a democracy. "Maintaining their power" means passing bills for their constituents and campaigning for the next election. If they keep getting elected, the people clearly want it