108 pointsby lxm4 hours ago9 comments
  • danielodievich3 hours ago
    Just last week I was on the call with a a techy architect from one of the major-major financial services companies, and he was discussing getting token capacity and his words on third best option was "we'd get it from Coreweave or whoever is still alive". So yeah, I am pretty sure that if that's the sentiment from software people at the major-major financial company, Coreweave is cooked.
    • maerF0x03 hours ago
      Which is such a wild thing about our industry. These can be simultaneously true

      - No one has available tokens/gpus/datacenter for sale at any price

      - No one will lend people money to build it

      • KingMachiavelli2 hours ago
        This is how all capital-intensive utilities operate. The marginal cost of using a little more power or tokens is easy to justify because you can at any point stop using more.

        But the cost to add more power capacity is huge and highly variable. Just because oil is expensive today doesn’t mean the capex to pump more is justified.

        Really what AI needs is large customers that will commit to large spend over the next 5-10 years. Without this AI companies are basically offering duration arbitrage of electricity. Not a good place to be; the finances will always look bad.

        Unfortunately, the amount of capital required by the entire AI industry is enough that counterparty risk is now a concern.

        • belZaahan hour ago
          Anthropic and OpenAI are these customers, willing to buy the infrastructure. But they are running out of cash, too.
          • aurareturnan hour ago
            Wait, Anthropic has $112 billion in cash right now and generates about $70B in revenue per year and grew 10x YoY. If they succeed in raising $100B in cash in the IPO, which I believe they will, they'll have $212B. If their growth declines to 3x (down from 10x) in 2027, they'll still be at $230B in yearly revenue.

            Further more, their compute commitments are over 10-15 years. Their average quarterly compute commitment is only about $11B - $15B which they have already surpassed with their revenue.

            At $230b/year, they’d be at around $57b in quarterly revenue against compute of around $16b. This is not bleeding cash.

            Why do you say they're running out of cash?

            • otherme12334 minutes ago
              The only reason Anthropic has cash is because VC keep giving them the money. They never had a positive quarter, with revenue always lower than expenses regardless of their growth, thus burning money from VC.

              If VC money gets tight, they would have to issue debt, that pay interests. With a current negative EBITDA, their bond will be junk at IPO, paying higher interests and having a lot less market than AAA debt (e.g. Google has access to that market). Both things combined translate to "running out of cash".

              • aurareturn7 minutes ago
                They were cash flow positive for 2 quarters in a row.
            • ImPostingOnHN42 minutes ago
              now do the math with profit instead of revenue

              most recently (on both a quarterly and annual basis), it was negative

              • aurareturn5 minutes ago
                Why with profit instead of revenue?

                Their revenue pays for the compute.

            • byzantinegenean hour ago
              they also have $1T in commitments
              • aurareturnan hour ago
                Yes, over 10-15 years and I'm guessing many of those contracts are just intents and not hard commitments.

                Let's say it's 15 years. That's $16B/quarter in commitment. They had $17B in revenue in Q3 2026.

                If anything, they're far too conservative.

        • noosphran hour ago
          AI doomers have predicted 1095 of the last 0 AI bubble pops.

          Everyone is using more and more tokens, everyone is complaining that providers lobotomize flag ship models because they don't have the capacity to serve everyone.

          Then they turn around and compare it to the dark fiber bust or railways or whatever when in each of those the issue was the capacity being build that no one used.

          It's been 2 years since I could buy a gpu for love or money. It's been one for ram.

          My old rig is worth ~two~ three[0] times what I paid for it inflation adjusted.

          [0] fuck me ram is rising again.

          • incrudible27 minutes ago
            If tokens are being given away below cost, of course you're gonna use more. It's not gonna last. How many tokens would you spend on random experiments if they were much more expensive? If tokens are so valuable, why do I (and many others) get to use them on economically worthless things until I'm bored?

            We just don't know the true value of tokens until those subsidies stop, and the subsidies don't stop because the respective companies don't want to know, at least until everyone cashed out. The valuations of AI companies are very difficult to reconcile with current revenue (which doesn't cover cost) and with a sober mind it's hard to imagine where all this additional revenue is going to come from, down the line. And that's not to say the the technology isn't fundamentally transformative and revolutionary. So was the internet, but it still created an investment bubble.

            The RAM prices are in yet another pork cycle, which will be exacerbated by the fact that many previous pork cycles left RAM manufacturers with excess capacity and rock-bottom prices, so they're much more careful investing and more assertive negotiating contracts now.

      • fhruwbfbrb2 hours ago
        That is precisely what price subsidies look like. These companies are hiding the the true cost of offering these models.
        • aurareturn2 minutes ago
          Source?
        • wmfan hour ago
          They're not subsidizing enough for CoreWeave to make money.
          • otherme12327 minutes ago
            All the money is being funneled towards nVidia. CoreWeave touches it briefly, and sends it to Jensen. Then nVidia user some of this cash to finance AI labs or clouds again. But the biggest losers seem to be VC's, that are on the basis of this piramid and still have to see a cent in return.
      • preommr2 hours ago
        > No one will lend people money to build it

        The money is there but not at the risk levels these companies have pushed things to. They're spending billions like it's candy, and treating millions like change they found in their couch cushions.

        Financial systems are usually in the hands of people that have some risk management. When these labs say things like this will change everything, there's no way to know how to evaluate any of this.

      • vasco20 minutes ago
        Trillions have been lent. What you're saying is like eating 55 burgers, 55 pizzas, 55 tater tots and then complaining that the fridge is empty and nobody will give you more food.
  • trescenzi3 hours ago
    That’s edging up on credit card rates for strong borrowers wild. NerdWallet has Chase Freedom with a lower bound of 18.49% and Citi Diamond Preferred with 16.74%.

    https://www.nerdwallet.com/credit-cards/best

    • alsdkgjhgd2 hours ago
      it's pretty well accepted that if you ever actually pay the credit card rate, you're doing it wrong
  • bix63 hours ago
    So there’s a chance I can pickup some discounted GPUs next year?
    • CoolestBeans3 hours ago
      Hyperscalers and SPVs are still planning on accelerating the buildout in 2027. Also even if everything hit the fan tomorrow, it will take time for production to shift back into consumer products if that's even what companies decide to shift to.
      • Hamukoan hour ago
        I don't the envisioned scenario is that a data centre company fails and Nvidia starts making RTX 5090s for consumers. Rather, one of these companies fails, their stock of enterprise GPUs gets flooded on the market, and suddenly the people/companies buying RTX 5090s for local inference can buy full fat enterprise GPUs, shifting demand.
        • reverius4240 minutes ago
          If by enterprise you mean datacenter (which is what CoreWeave is), the "full fat" cards aren't as plug-and-play in a desktop PC as the consumer cards. They don't typically come with fans, and are meant to be cooled using some kind of holistic whole-rack (or larger) setup. Hobbyists do sometimes buy datacenter GPUs secondhand (and I have considered it, for the price/performance ratio) but it's kind of a lot of work and they tend to run hot.
        • wmf42 minutes ago
          If a neocloud fails, it makes more sense to recapitalize it and leave the GPUs in place. If you sell the GPUs nobody will have enough power to run them.
    • throwawaypty2 hours ago
      Zero chance. Secondary market for enterprise grade GPUs is white hot.
    • latentsea2 hours ago
      GPUs allow you to buy becoming more powerful. They are going to continue to be sought after.
    • ipsum23 hours ago
      No, the other neoclouds will scoop up the remains. The H100 was released 4 years ago and its still near impossible to find at any discounted price.
    • water-drummer3 hours ago
      If you can out-bid the Chinese.
  • holysoles3 hours ago
    Aside from the price signal, the fact they were issuing these at a 9.625% coupon rate continues to run up their future debt servicing costs.

    Coreweave doesnt seem to be in a winner-take-all sector, they have a narrow moat and will have high ongoing capex. I struggle to see how they dont go under eventually even with the ability to restructure debt

    • adventuredan hour ago
      CoreWeave is the Exodus Communications of this bubble party.

      [Sept 2001] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-sep-27-fi-50296...

      "Exodus Communications Inc., which never made a profit since it went public in March 1998, filed for bankruptcy protection after losing customers in the collapsing Internet economy."

      "Exodus, which runs 44 Internet data centers on four continents, listed $5.98 billion in assets and $4.44 billion in debts in Chapter 11 papers filed Wednesday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware. The company operates so-called server farms that provide Web site services for businesses."

      "The Santa Clara, Calif.-based company’s losses increased more than tenfold in the second quarter, and it fired workers as it failed to win new contracts fast enough to replace those it lost. Exodus counted Yahoo Inc. and AMR Corp.’s American Airlines among its customers."

      "Trading in Exodus shares was halted before the markets opened Wednesday. The shares fell 33 cents to 17 cents Tuesday and have plunged 99% from a record $89.81 in March 2000."

      "Analysts say Exodus, with eight different junk bond offerings totaling about $3.4 billion, ran up more debt than it could handle."

      “We sacrificed profitability in exchange for growth and market share, over-expanding in some areas in advance of demand, not anticipating the decline as the dot-com bubble burst and the economy weakened,” Krause said.

      "Exodus’ second-quarter loss grew on acquisition and restructuring costs to $583.4 million, or $1.05 a share, from $51.8 million, or 13 cents, a year earlier. Sales rose 79% to $318.7 million but missed analyst estimates. The company lost $256 million on sales of $818.4 million in 2000."

  • Alien1Being2 hours ago
    Fraudulent circular accounting is so very entertaining.
  • jeffbee3 hours ago
    It almost reads like a semiconductor process report.
  • fnord773 hours ago
    totally crazy that Google has bonds yielding 5.68%

    That's a great return for practically zero risk.

    (If google defaults on bonds there's much bigger problems in the world than the loss of your capital)

    • aurareturna minute ago
      I disagree. I think Google Search is in huge trouble. Most of their profits come from it.
    • ion_trapper3 hours ago
      The yield is bounded from below by the treasury yield, which is just a little lower - and with the treasury you have really big problems if they default! But realistically the US will inflate its currency rather than default, so the yield is really just reflecting expected future inflation. It’s not as great a deal as it seems. Bonds are probably the most fairly priced assets in the world.
      • neural_thing2 hours ago
        I'm old enough to remember Argentina issue a 100 year bond with an 8% yield.
      • maerF0x02 hours ago
        If by fairly priced you mean so competitively priced that essentially all the real profit has been taken out.
        • panicinducer2 hours ago
          What else would fairly priced mean?
          • maerF0x02 hours ago
            Fair could be construed as "the layers of market participants receive a share of the profits" . As far as I can tell there is essentially none left, and thats because folks will bid it down to 0 profit because they're lending others' money. (they're only responsible for their opportunity cost, but even 1% on others money is a good deal for the bank)
    • conover3 hours ago
      So much low-risk debt has been issued by the likes of Google, Amazon, etc. that it’s hard for other debt issuers to compete.
    • stymaar3 hours ago
      US 10y bonds are at 4.871, which is lower but fits your description even better.

      That being said, inflation is at 3.7% YoY and it's the real rate that maters, not the nominal one.

    • 2 hours ago
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    • Imustaskforhelp3 hours ago
      The treasury is having daily rates of 4.56% at 2 year bond and 4.88% at 10 years rate.

      Yes, Google has a very small risk but still it is a non zero risk that google can bankrupt whereas US govt can physically not bankrupt itself given that it can print the money (there could only be some gridlock within raising the ceiling though but that's true)

      Also I would argue that Google itself has changed with trillions of dollars spent into AI/Datacenters, it simply can't pivot as well. There is a reason as to why Google is having such high level of interest rate

      Google isn't stupid and wants to give such high level of interests if not for the amount of risk involved. I dont believe that there's free lunch but also that perhaps this can be a good deal to some and this is gonna push people even more away from the more riskier neoclouds funding and cause their debts to rise in interests rate even more.

      • Esophagus42 hours ago
        Matt Levine once noticed that Microsoft’s bonds were actually cheaper than Treasuries (during a time of Trump-instigated turbulence).

        His point was that Microsoft has an interest in maximizing its credit worthiness which necessitated the corporate governance etc, while the administration had an interest in maximizing… other stuff (?) which did not necessitate the same things.

        [1] https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/why-microsoft-has-lowe...

  • Refreeze52243 hours ago
    Now let's see Anthropic sell enough of its junk bonds to cover its half a billion in non-cancelable obligations.
  • treebeard9012 hours ago
    No Chinese honey traps for the Coreweave CEO for the foreseeable future