825 pointsby meetpateltech4 hours ago94 comments
  • skeledrew4 hours ago
    Damn people were right about 5.5 being nerfed in preparation for a version release. This is not at all a good look.

    - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50422069

    • ariwilson4 hours ago
      I at least didn't see this. I had a baseline evaluation from before Nov 3 on Opus 5.5 medium, so I re-ran it this morning.

      Eval context: 30 bug fixes and features evaluated by tests the agent didn't see. Ran on Opus 5.5 at medium effort in Claude Code.

      20 of the tasks were last run on Nov 1, twice each. Nov 1 solved 36/40, and today solved 19/20. Thinking tokens per task were 0.95x Nov 1’s and output tokens 0.97x. The one significant change was speed: median time to first token decreased from 3.0s to 1.7s.

      Caveats: one run per task today, medium effort only.

      • marshalla2 hours ago
        Personally, I've found myself getting lazier recently, trying to get a single session to handle tasks that should be broken into multiple sessions, etc. I've suspected claims of nerfing might come from changes in user behavior. I'm glad more disciplined checks are being run.
        • mr_roboto2 hours ago
          It could be harness changes too, been quite unhappy with opus 5.5 the last few days and there have been a lot of harness updates.
      • janalsncm34 minutes ago
        This is an example of LLM text that doesn’t make sense.

        Paragraph 1 says there were 30 bug fixes.

        Paragraph 2 first says they tested it on 20 of the “tasks”. But why is the denominator 40? Where did that come from? It should be 30.

        It goes on to mention another test, this time with 20 tasks. Again, it’s unclear where this is even coming from. Based on the first paragraph it should be 30 not 20.

        • sfinka few seconds ago
          I think it's confusing and incomplete, but not wrong. Paragraph 2 says the Nov 1 test included 20 of the tasks and ran each twice. That's the 40 denominator.

          Why paragraph 1 even mentions the full set of 30 tasks if 10 of them are irrelevant to the comparison, I don't know.

          I'm not sure if it's LLM text, or somebody who has been reading way too much LLM text and is now corrupted into mimicking it. My guess would be a mix of human and LLM. "...evaluated by tests the agent didn't see" sounds very Claude. The first line (2 sentences) sounds human to me. Everything after sounds AI, though the last line is ambiguous.

          It's kind of sad how our meat brains are getting non-consensually trained on this categorization task....

      • drakythe3 hours ago
        If I read your results correct it solved 5% more problems and used up between 3-5% fewer tokens, with a faster response time?
        • ariwilson3 hours ago
          Correct. But the 5% more solves and 3-5% fewer tokens are within the noise of previous eval runs I've done on models. The faster response time is not.
          • Spivak3 hours ago
            Someone using an actual statistical test to quantify if there's actual measurable improvement?! An angel among men.
            • jerkstate2 hours ago
              from my basic stats knowledge, it's not reliable to calculate the confidence interval of the sample proportion with fewer than about 10 samples on both sides. So if you're only seeing 1 or 2 failures in 20, and that approximately held as you scaled, you would have to run about 200 tests with each in order to get at least 10 failures in order to calculate the confidence intervals of the two samples and see if they overlap or not.
              • disgruntledphd22 hours ago
                And this is why not many people do this. Even if you have the decals and the statistical knowledge, it's pretty expensive to do this regularly.
        • astro12343 hours ago
          Uncertainty from count statistics are far larger than this. These are two perfectly consistent results there’s no statsig difference
      • risyachka2 hours ago
        The spending limit definitely goes down much faster as of last week or so.
      • 3 hours ago
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    • BryceEller4 hours ago
      I dunno there are some other nerf trackers that aren't showing a regression: https://github.com/ninjahawk/livenerf
      • xtracto3 hours ago
        The problem is that it seems to be an A/B testing thing:

        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50422951

        So only if you were "selected" for their experiments, your account was nerfed.

        • eggdaftan hour ago
          For sure, myself and colleague saw this nerfing. He said - new model coming. It was incredibly obvious. I also started getting a lot of "How's Claude doing today" messages at the same time, which is presumably to get feedback on the A/B
          • krenelan hour ago
            I always skip those. I know it doesn’t matter in the bigger scheme of things, but I don’t want to be classified as a “good feedback provider”.

            I’m working on a task. And the task is never to evaluate the agent performance.

            • LtdJorge15 minutes ago
              And whenever you press a number, even 0, they keep your full conversation.
        • cromkaan hour ago
          I strongly believe it will be shit like this that will have people abandon them. They're being way too cocky for a company that pretty much didn't exist 2 years ago
        • Tadpole91812 hours ago
          But the claim here is "the models are nerfed before a release", not "they A/B test quants / efforts". If it were A/B testing, it doesn't really make sense to correlate it to release windows at all.
          • Y_Yan hour ago
            The models are nerfed [for some people] before a release
          • eggdaftan hour ago
            They might want to see how people react to a new model depending on whether they've been nerfed.

            If the nerfing is lower effort (seems to be, presumably why they hide the CoT) then they may be wondering if they can get away permanently with lowering effort on the new release provided it gives a wee improvement.

      • swatcoder3 hours ago
        "Nerf tracking" is adversarial and exploratory. It's not something Anthropic wants anyone to do, and it's not something that the "nerf tracking" designers are necessarily doing in a foolproof way. Don't assume too much from them either way.
        • jstummbillig3 hours ago
          But do from anecdotal evidence without benchmarks?
          • swatcoder3 hours ago
            Did I suggest that?

            Sometimes you just have insufficient evidence to be sure of something either way, and nobody gets to win the argument or shut somebody else down.

            In this case, some have reported analytical work[0] that goes beyond "gut feel" anecodotal evidence, but even that's not going to conclusive and may not be trustworthy at all.

            [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeCode/comments/1xr9x5y/the_ner...

            • jstummbillig3 hours ago
              No, you did not comment on it. That is why I asked. Thanks for the clarification!
      • rybosworld3 hours ago
        These nerf trackers do not work. I wish people would stop posting them.

        They don't detect a quantized model until the quantization gets down to 4 bits or less.

        Humans absolutely do detect quantization well before 4 bits...

        Try it yourself if you want. Try a small local model, both quantized and not, and I would be very surprised if it isn't immediately obvious which is which.

      • yieldcrv4 hours ago
        Its incredibly easy to roll out a compute instance to X% of users, or route traffic between compute instances

        so not everyone will have the same experience. If I was saving on costs that would be the easiest way to do it without deploying, without any nefarious intent. The persons in charge of that likely don't even know about how individual users are impacted

        • olalonde3 hours ago
          At what point does this become false advertising, or even fraud? Imagine paying AWS for a high-performance server, but 5% of customers who order one quietly get a slower, cheaper server and still pay the full price. That's a serious claim and makes me skeptical Anthropic is doing something like that without more evidence.
          • apt-apt-apt-aptan hour ago
            I think they could easily reduce several parameters to slightly reduce cost (something like "it's the same model, a few less passes, but quality is still 95%+").

            Or switch to a faster, cheaper cache mechanism or something that's almost as good, but much cheaper to run, in the name of improving efficiency and keeping up with demand. This switch to cheaper mechanisms is what it feels like to me.

          • eggdaftan hour ago
            It's a problem for us. When they nerf the model our productivity really drops (due to the specific use case and process we have). We've started using OpenAI and will gradually use it more and more if this continues.
          • kuboble2 hours ago
            Actually, as a person who rented a dedicated server or two (not from aws) this exact thing happens quite often.

            For example a provider quietly underclocks your cpu or puts it is an energy saving plan hoping you won't notice.

            • cvwright6 minutes ago
              Or your "dedicated" CPUs on your VM disappear for minutes at a time, or just process a tiny number of instructions
        • cft3 hours ago
          The degradation only happens to some accounts but not to all.

          https://www.reddit.com/r/ClaudeCode/s/64DXRERLyU

          It would be nice to know how they select. I max out my $200 subscription every week and I was selected. On Saturday, the Opus on my account that happened to be supervising a running live process, became unusable.

          • tmpz223 hours ago
            It would be trivial for them to opt-out accounts that are doing benchmarking from a planned regression.

            I really really really do not trust companies on the verge of IPOing from goosing their numbers. Even if the lawyers are up their ass, the social pressures are more than enough to compel the behavior. For every good person willing to do the right thing even at the cost of a delayed career progression, there are 20 people willing to do anything not even for a dollar but for an "atta boy!" from the boss.

            • Wowfunhappy32 minutes ago
              If it's a private benchmark, how would they know it's a benchmark?
            • cft3 hours ago
              That's a major reason to use local models. Or open weights models on a trusted cloud provider. Even if they are way less capable, they're more predictable
      • scrlk4 hours ago
        Nothing stopping Anthropic (or other labs) from pulling a VW Dieselgate and ensuring that benchmarks are routed to a non-nerfed model.
      • swader99915 minutes ago
        Should be fairly routine for anthropic to game a nerf tracker?
      • fritzo4 hours ago
        That must be on anthropic's benchmaxxing CI test
        • chinathrow4 hours ago
          Nerfmaxxing.

          It probably need a whistleblower to uncover what they are doing.

    • ianberdinan hour ago
      According to our measurements this isn't true. We re-ran Opus 5.5 today on the benchmark we ran in September, with the same prompt and settings. Before and after, side by side: https://playcode.io/blog/macbook-svg-benchmark#reruns

      Max, streamed (128K cap): 128,000 tokens, $2.56, empty file, in September and today.

      Max, Batch API (300K): 255,957 tokens for $2.56 in September, 243,707 for $2.44 today. The two drawings: https://playcode.io/marketing/assets/static/claude-opus-5-5-... and https://playcode.io/marketing/assets/static/claude-opus-5-5-...

      Xhigh: 86,096 tokens for $1.72 in September, 107,333 for $2.15 today.

      The Batch API bills half price. Max ran out of the 128K ceiling again, to the token. Given 300K, it drew the same kind of laptop with 5% fewer tokens. Xhigh used 25% more and drew the same kind of laptop. That's inside the noise: 17 identical calls at high ranged from 17,757 to 59,705 tokens.

      The model is still the best of everything we've tried. Most likely the next best would be Fable 5.2. But we don't like Fable because essentially the result is the same, just the price is higher. Its medium and high are close to what Opus 5.5 Max had, but the price is higher.

      (I run Playcode, an AI app builder. We benchmark every model before we add it.)

    • kif4 hours ago
      I used to be skeptical of nerfing, but as of a week or so ago I've noticed a severe degradation of quality for GPT Astra. It struggled with very simple tasks, and it often failed to follow my instructions.
      • margalabargala4 hours ago
        I hear a lot of accusations of nerfing as in, saying that the model itself has been quantized.

        I doubt this is the case. I suspect all variation in quality and output can be explained in terms of prompt differences, and changing how much thinking happens at each level, as we see in the post above.

        • rybosworld3 hours ago
          Suppose a company has a limited amount of compute. What do they then do if peak demand exceeds what they can provide? They don't turn off people's access...

          And what about A/B testing? Anthropic doesn't even try to hide that they do this. Limited compute and A/B testing alone, would guarantee a nerfed experience some of the time. That is, you don't even need a nefarious reason.

          I consider it gas lighting to deny model nerfing.

          • brainwad2 hours ago
            > They don't turn off people's access...

            They do drop requests though? At peak times I sometimes have 1-2 requests fail with Opus; no biggie, the harness just retries it. But that, in aggregate, sheds load.

            • an hour ago
              undefined
          • fwip2 hours ago
            You serve the requests more slowly. Same as if your bank has a sudden rush of customers - the tellers serve them in order, and the customers wait longer. Some of the customers 'time out' (get frustrated and leave).
            • rybosworldan hour ago
              > You serve the requests more slowly.

              Thats not what Openai and Anthropic do though

            • vhantzan hour ago
              I guess there's an alternate universe where that happens
          • margalabargala2 hours ago
            I'm not denying model nerfing. I'm asserting an opinion about the nature of the nerfing.

            If you want to go accuse someone of denying model nerfing, go find someone doing it and argue with them.

        • eggdaftan hour ago
          Na, surely effort level is silently degraded. Dead easy to do, impossible for anyone to verify, and very fine-grained so can be balanced perfectly with available compute.

          Edit: maybe not impossible. Side channels perhaps.

          • margalabargalaan hour ago
            Exactly. How much higher is "very high" that "high"? Is it constant across weeks? Who knows!
        • cerved3 hours ago
          It's been the same for every version the last year.

          Oh, this Opus X.Y is incredible. Hmm... Now it's dumb. Rinse, repeat.

          Doesn't really matter if the cause is quantization, system prompt changes, changes to thinking etc.

          It's hard to see how continuously rug pulling users at every release is a good idea. Only reason I can fathom is that it's needed to keep costs inline.

          Either that or it's some weird tweaking to the prompts to fix whatever. But given the prevalent sentiment that it's worse that sounds like a long shot

          • tatjam2 hours ago
            I presume it just makes the new version look way better? So instead of a more or less straight quality line it looks like a sawtooth
            • pigpopan hour ago
              The Apple software update strategy.
              • tatjaman hour ago
                Kind of sad but if it works, it works! Bit conspiranoic, but i have a feeling nearly all phone vendors do something similar...
        • serf3 hours ago
          it's easy to suspect the hosting companies trying to do what they can to reduce cost-to-host up until the very threshold of perceptibility, so it's an easy guess to say they're probably doing something that shifts performance up or down between version releases..

          but realistically I think you're right, it's prompt quality and the inherent non-determinism elements of LLMs showing up; when both of those things meet you get brain dead outputs.

          Everyone likes to shout "slot machines! non-determinism!" until it actually explains something, heh.

      • rubicon333 hours ago
        YES. To the point that I literally stopped using it, and have moved BACK to Claud.

        This is getting ridiculous. The number of times I have switched from one model back to the other is crazy. I do not have any proof, so its quite possible I'm just delusional. AI psychosis? Either way, it FEELS like these models work really well for a while and then fall off. Switching to the latest model on the competitor always seems better, until it too seems to taper off. By then, a new model is usually available at the competitor, so I switch.

        Its possible there's no degradation at all and just a PERCEPTION of it. But to me the end user, it really doesn't matter.

      • Foobar85684 hours ago
        Both Astra and Opus didn't really looked good for the last week or two.
      • redanddead4 hours ago
        why were you skeptical of other users?
        • brokensegue4 hours ago
          People are prone to seeing patterns in noise especially after suggestion. It's not hard to imagine someone concluding the model is nerfd after few bad responses in a row
          • hartator4 hours ago
            Why this won’t apply to you as well?
            • kasey_junk3 hours ago
              It could apply to me but I run evals every time someone at work complains about this and it’s never shown any more or less variance than regular usage. I don’t have statistical relevance with my evals but I do have a decent history with them.

              People seem to underestimate how high normal variance is with these tools.

            • serf3 hours ago
              i'm not parent, but to answer your snark : there are efforts a person can take to try to reduce things like suggestability in ones' own personality. Same as anything, the brain can be trained, thus it should go without saying that some of us react differently in the face of suggestion -- both for the better and the worse.
        • grey-area3 hours ago
          A growing percentage of the users on the internet are not human.
      • tamimio4 hours ago
        Sol been really bad in some basic stuff that I would remove it from frontier models entirely
      • aetherspawn2 hours ago
        Yes I agree, Astra has been awful this week.
      • redox994 hours ago
        GPT Astra felt nerfed just days after it launched.
    • stillpointlab4 hours ago
      I'm guilty of suspecting this.

      If this turns out to be accurate, I think that would be a pretty unethical thing for Anthropic. Even if it is just a "we had to allocate compute to this new model release".

      It should be fraud to swap out the model. We need a term for this, something like a bait-and-switch.

      • peri-cl10 minutes ago
        > "We need a term for this, something like a bait-and-switch."

        The media coined the term "dual quality" for a European food scandal a few years back, in which conglomerates (including Coca-Cola) adulterated products with cheap, substitute ingredients, if they were destined for distribution in specific markets (mainly, lower-income).

        The packaging exteriors were the same; and there were (I think)? broadly no price differences. It was essentially what the software industry calls "A/B testing", except with sneaking things into what people eat.

        I don't have any good reading links on hand; here's one source,

        https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_... ("Dual Food Quality: Questions and Answers")

      • user439283 hours ago
        I've been working with Opus 5.5 every day, probably around 10h on average, and I feel confident in saying that they did not replace anything.

        I'm a bit disappointed with how this nonsense is spread across HN today.

        • scrollop3 hours ago
          "I'm a bit disappointed with how this nonsense is spread across HN today."

          Are you saying that the many, many people posting and experiencing this are wrong and you are right?

          And not just in this instance, nerfing has been complained about in a cyclical fashion for many months.

          But, they're all wrong?

          You're so confident in your experience that you cannot think that other's experiences are also true?

          • user439283 hours ago
            I'm pretty convinced that those who have constantly been posting these complaints, probably for every single model release out there, are indeed wrong.
          • Capricorn24812 hours ago
            > And not just in this instance, nerfing has been complained about in a cyclical fashion for many months.

            No, it gets complained about constantly even if there is no model coming out. A completely unrelated thread on Claude will feature comments like "can I just say that [model] has suddenly become useless this week?" Merely asking that question is bound to get people agreeing with you because we are evaluating all of this on vibes and placebos.

            I too feel that way sometimes, I don't think it's ridiculous that Anthropic might silently downgrade you as demand warrants. But asking others if they "feel" something I feel is less than useless.

          • arcanemachiner2 hours ago
            If you go back in time far enough, your logic can successfully be used to demonstrate the earth is flat.

            "Could all these people seriously be wrong?" Yes, yes they could.

      • order-matters3 hours ago
        I believe fraud is a sufficient term. You claim to be selling X but you actually sold them Y. Bait and switch is a selling tactic to avoid fraud where they make you believe product is X and then when you go to buy they tell you X isnt available but they have Y. While also unethical, it is not fraud because they did tell you what it is you are buying before you buy it.

        if they just straight up dont sell you something you bought then its fraud.

        I think there is a ripe opportunity for expanding the definition of fraud to include changing the "ingredients" of a named product on the market. It is not limited here, we see it with food, and even in the medical field

        (I will die on the hill that medical fraud was committed when mRNA therapy was used as a treatment for covid and it was 'sold' to the public as a "vaccine" despite not being the same thing as any vaccine before it. The definition of vaccine was expanded to include it without sifficient public disclosure to warrant informed consent imo. This is not a statement about conspiracy or the efficacy of vaccines or a moral judgement on whether it was for the greater good or not.. it was simply an act of fraud that robbed the public of proper informed consent by making people believe it was X when it was really Y.)

        So yes, I think there is a large need for the public to at the very least put a strong handle on the ability to change what a product name means. It is a trivial problem to solve considering it is only a problem due fraud or fraud adjacent activities.

        heres the solution: You have your product name, and then any changes to it REQUIRE a new version name. Like how you have Coke and Diet Coke, only formalized such that Coke cannot legally replace the ingredients of regular Coke with the ingredients of Diet coke and still call it Coke. With Software they could at least use version numbers and release modifiers. most of the time its built in already, but it needs to include the full stack. if they change anything that has an interaction with the user it should change the label seen by the user for the product.

        thank you for coming to my ted talk

        • origini2 hours ago
          You don't buy a hard quantity of an LLM you buy access in general.

          A Opus 5.5 is not a Opus 5.5. Its Opus 5.5 of some checkpoint.

          mRNA btw. was well known how it worked, it wasn't hidden and some people waited for the non mRNA version because of it. I never seen or read the argument you make and I do not get it.

          A vaccine is something which protects you from an infection. What definition do you think changed in humans? That we make the protein? How is that so different from viral vector vaccines?

          The consent is a certain level of trust from the society to a group of researchers limited by being humans and having to act in a certain time frame.

          Nontheless, I do agree I would like to have a fingerprint and proper changelogs etc. for products I buy including digital and analog. But this has a downside as usual: The smaller you are, the more it costs you to (probably) register, maintain and change.

          You know the good thing about Claude etc. right now? It doesn't matter. My invest is not 4 digits and there are that many changes, i'm quite happy to have been upgraded for 'free' from Opus 4.8 to Opus 5 (what do you call this upgrade, which was significant better?)

    • mariofdistrust4 hours ago
      idk, it hasn't felt nerfed at all to me, and it's not like i'm just doing trivial CRUD webapps either. opus 5.5 is very successfully porting my phone to postmarketos. claude just got the touchscreen up and working (and made a little program for me to test it, and it's legit).
    • espeed3 hours ago
      This happened last time too with Opus 5.5 (released September 22): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49789224
    • keylean hour ago
      OpenAI did the same and that was the end of it for me. Completely murderded 5.3 and rug pull on cost.
    • nicce3 hours ago
      In a normal world you are not allowed to degrade the service during your agreed and paid contract. You would get sued. Apparently this is perfectly fine in this current world.
    • kroaton19 minutes ago
      It's been a mess over the last week or so. Went from being the best model I've ever used to utter dogshit that can't complete any task. It's very obvious with the Advisor pattern, where before when it chatted to Fable 5.1 there were small tweaks and so. No every time Fable comes back catching a ton of problems and bugs with Opus 5.5

      Fuck Anthropic.

    • onlyrealcuzzo3 hours ago
      Benchmarks don't do a good job at capturing the difference in quality of frontier models over smaller models.

      Opus 5.5 was so good that if it wasn't nerfed - at least just looking at the benchmarks - the difference in cost here does not seem to justify using this for anything besides design and review.

      That's like maybe 1% of total token usage for SWE BUT a better design can have enormous benefits, so it's almost always worth using the best model for that.

    • biker1425413 hours ago
      I don't have a formal benchmark, but daily work (coding mostly, plus some complex architecture design and review) has had consistent outputs today for me. No noticeable nerf from my perspective. I definitely took notice in some past instances, but if they nerfed Opus 5.5, then I guess it was just so good that I was nowhere near its limits.
    • irthomasthomas2 hours ago
      Cost per task

      Fable 5.1 Max $11.46

      Fable 5.2 Max $44.70

    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • Rapzid3 hours ago
      No they weren't. Models are not "nerfed".
      • origini2 hours ago
        They do change things though which can have impact on behaviour.

        System prompt would be the easiest one.

        But there were flash or inbetween models, different checkpoints etc. THey might also try different hardware which might not be binary compatible.

    • sekai4 hours ago
      > Damn people were right about 5.5 being nerfed in preparation for a version release. This is not at all a good look.

      Anthropic does this time and time again, unserious company

      • 4 hours ago
        undefined
    • aizk3 hours ago
      Can you share some evidence?
    • marknutteran hour ago
      Is this voodoo? Every time someone makes this claim I'm left scratching my head wondering what the hell they're talking about. Either I'm not very perceptive, or these claims are subjective hand-waving.
    • phreackan hour ago
      A friend who doesn't follow these news suddenly told me he felt Claude was doing worse the past week. I bet him there was a new model version coming up within days. It's like clockwork at this point, no matter what deniers say. I got a beer out of it at least :)
    • ieie33664 hours ago
      No it’s not nerfed. Another poster said it the best, your dopamine receiptors are nerfed after the new model hype wears off
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
    • raincole3 hours ago
      People have been complaining about how the models are nerfed non-stop for two years. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
    • thefounder3 hours ago
      yeah, we need to make sure we don't get stuck with these two evil corps. Dario is really the worst. Plays the drama queen but he is very hard in all things dark(i.e. dark patterns).
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • LeBit4 hours ago
      But, it’s okay they do it because they charge less when it happens.

      Right?

    • 3 hours ago
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    • 3 hours ago
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    • iLoveOncall3 hours ago
      This has happened every single time for the past year, why are people surprised? This is all so that the new models can look better on the benchmarks.
    • j453 hours ago
      It's a good pattern to detect for perhaps.
    • igleria4 hours ago
      I literally hit the desk with an open hand yelling I KNEW IT
    • sunaookami4 hours ago
      It's not true. People need to stop believing these conspiracy theories.
    • guluarte3 hours ago
      for me opus 5.5 was acting kind of dumb, like forgetting basic stuff he was nailing last week
      • KellyCriterion3 hours ago
        Interesting - I had the same feeling but mostly with 4.6 when I "downgraded" for some easier/trivial tasks: The model forget things I posted 20 min ago in the chat (and the same file was in the context as well)
      • LtdJorge11 minutes ago
        Yep, very stupid mistakes, that newly released Opus would have "laughed" at.
    • LeBit4 hours ago
      Another reason we need to democratize local models.
    • lichenwarp3 hours ago
      I'm not surprised at all that they might be doing shady shit, my free request was used up in less than 7 minutes and said pay to continue, no thanks. I've paid for monthly before, never again I don't care how good the model is. I asked about the extreme limited usage in their discord and got banned, not a good look. You don't have a way to measure what you're actually paying for and they can change it at any time.
    • spwa44 hours ago
      It gets worse. You might wonder "why now"? Well ... this happened 2 days ago:

      https://x.com/follistatindev/status/2119129611510383014

      With early handouts of Qwen4 starting to be reported 5 days ago ... so if they're good, they would have had some hours to evaluate Qwen4 against Claude 5.5 and, then or right after was when Anthropic decided to put out 5.2 ...

      So yeah ... benchmaxxing and all that. BUT nevertheless, the published results seem to say that Qwen4-Max appears to match Opus 5.5 on some benchmarks, and Qwen4-27B (probably by going even harder than Qwen3.8-27B on thinking/inference time compute) can beat Sonnet 5.5 on some things.

      I guess they're not taking any chances. Keep in mind that Anthropic has declared they have non-public models (it's in their IPO filing). These are referred to by the shorthand names Model 2, Model 3, and Model 4. Essentially 4 is better than 3 is better than 2.

      Fable 5.2 is "2.5" so to speak. So Anthropic was holding back, but not anymore. And now they can dial the performance up once more with what they have ready, and probably once more after that.

      • theptip3 hours ago
        “Why now” - they are about to IPO. It has been obvious for months that they would drop a new flagship model at exactly this point.

        It would be funny though if you are right and that model is Fable 5.5 in a couple weeks.

        • mariofdistrust3 hours ago
          it was so obvious that i even decided to get myself an anthropic sub today, hoping that i'd get a reset or something and i actually did
      • karp7734 hours ago
        Do you know of any rumors if they are still planning to release Fable 5.5 before the IPO or today's 5.2 is it?
      • ActionHank4 hours ago
        Dario is gonna have to honeypot someone from Alibaba to get ahead.
  • yewenjie4 hours ago
    > Our first formalization of Fermat’s Last Theorem, performed by an unreleased research version of Claude, took 11 days. It relied on a purpose-built harness along with guidance from a human researcher. By contrast, a team of 1,000 Fable 5.2 agents fully formalized the theorem in just 30 hours, with minimal human intervention. Fable 5.2 started from minimal prompts, built its own ways to coordinate, and used no mathematical references, only a list of intermediate theorem statements to score progress. It needed one-third of the action tokens as our first formalization and produced a proof seven times shorter. As can be seen in the figure below, Opus 5.5 (with the same 1,000-agent setup) completed only 26% of the formalization in 18 hours, and barely made any more progress after 30.

    Most people don't really have intuitions on what it means to push the frontier now (because AI has surpassed everything they are good at, for example, coding). We are truly inside the singularity (using Kurzweil's definition, slightly paraphrased - the time when technology progresses so fast no one can keep track with it).

    • legulere2 hours ago
      Kurzweil's definition contains exponential growth across technology, something that we are not seeing.

      What we're seeing instead is maybe akin to the green revolution. Before nitrogen fixation nitrogen was a resource constraining us humans. Lack of grit is what kept us from solving mathematical problems. However this lets us run into other resource constraints. A lot of technological progress does not solely hinge on thinking/processing. The speedup of creating new medicines with LLMs will probably be very small, as you still need to do all the testing. In software development you still need to first find out what to build in the first place and even mathematics where LLMs seem to shin brightest, it's becoming clearer that mathematics is not just solving mathematical problems.

      Apart from that, a good coder is better than LLMs, shown by the amount of hand-holding needed. The only issue is that the amount of research an LLM can do and knowledge it is trained with far surpasses the amount of work humans would need to spend by hand, but we can also us LLMs for that.

      • nickalasoan hour ago
        I would imagine Anthropic is hitting a wall on the number of simultaneous agents that can be useful on a task and are working on increasing that maximum. I would assume if they could get twice as much progress by using 10000 simultaneous running fable instances instead their brief would state that.

        IMO, it is very interesting and also very alarming. At some point the barrier to the exponential progress is the amount of computation available. I would consider hitting this limit and then likely using the same said swarm to help resolve it via various means as very much fitting under the definition of Ray Kurzweil's singularity.

        Also, I would disagree, Fable is a sufficient coder. The average human being better, even if that is true now (and personally I wouldn't agree), the average human is limited in the number of 'human instances' he or she can interface with at one time.

        if 1000 fable instances is better than any human at a task, how about 1 million instances running? Much easier than finding and hiring and coordinating 1000 extremely productive and intelligent human beings. Much cheaper too, it appears.

        • a_wild_dandanan hour ago
          10k OpenAI agents solved a Millennium Prize problem. Anthropic ain't gonna hit a wall there.
      • origini2 hours ago
        I thought we see exp right now or indications.

        Like models getting significant better every 7 month and model usage on openrouter.

        https://metr.org/ << someone said though that they are biased.

        Math is for sure about solving mathematical problems, mathematicians complaing about humans capability of understanding it. If you need math an LLM understands, it might not be relevant if you understand it if an LLM is getting a lot better in adjusting itself if it goes the wrong way.

        And this situation is only a few weeks old. We don't know how this field continues to progress. Books like the culture series and other scifi do describe a future were humans spend their time only to understand what the machines are doing or did.

        The speedup of medicines is for sure faster with. There are still old labs doing everything by hand and the neolabs doing everything a lot more automated. An AI can do experiments 24/7 and can scale with the hardwarelabs, but it also can hold the whole research field in context and it might be a lot faster of choosing the better experiments or the right ones to begin with.

        In software developmet (my field) i can do today alone what you needed a Team for. Yeah it doesn't help the field of software engineering if you need 5 times less people and you don't have any motivation AT ALL to teach someone avg. We are already planning to remove one member of our team due to AI. And we will not extend the contract of 2 consultants.

        It just doesn't make sense anymore. If i explain in a ticket a task well enough for someone who has not been in our team for years, the AI is already better in it. We don't struggle with AI output, we struggle more with not having a Monorepo.

        Give an LLM access to a GPU system or a GPU cluster. It immediadly feels complelty different then running it on some laptop. It can now do simulations, a lot more and faster experiments etc. I had this epiphany just a few month ago. I always used my laptop for projects (it needs very little ram, i can quickly check what it is doing and i actually do use it primarily when im on holidays) until I thought "let me use claude to do some gaussian splatting experiment its always so cumbersome to use these tools" and it changed my perception immediadly.

      • CamperBob2an hour ago
        Apart from that, a good coder is better than LLMs

        I don't think that case can be made. I'm a "good coder" and the best LLMs are now better at it than I am, in essentially every respect that matters. I can't think of a test that I could reliably pass that Fable or Astra would reliably fail.

    • Fordec4 hours ago
      I feel like I'm increasingly reading AI current events is more like learning about historical events. By the time information has entered my head, there is even newer information out there that already makes what my brain is only currently actively processing, obsolete.
      • jeremyjh3 hours ago
        Also, the frontier labs are probably always internally using a model more advanced than what has been publicly released.
        • user439282 hours ago
          From the model card:

            Model                AECI   95% CI (global)
            Claude Opus 5.5    174.78   170.33-180.29
            Claude Mythos 5.2  177.12   172.42-182.94
            Internal model     178.78   173.75-185.18
          
          Considering the IPO is planned in a week, I doubt they are holding much back.
          • jeremyjh2 hours ago
            According to their S-1:

            In H1 2026, cost of revenue is $2.3B. That is primarily inference compute, but also includes cost of training models (but not research).

            In the same period, R&D was $9.4B. That is primarily spent on compute. That is what they are "holding back" already, in full public view.

            This is not a company that is optimizing for OpEx or end user revenue. The only thing relevant to their plans is achieving AGI/ASI first, and controlling enough compute to leverage it to earn the majority of the current economy.

        • vlyan2 hours ago
          because they hate money? google is the only frontier lab that isn't hundreds of billions in the red.
          • jeremyjh2 hours ago
            Because they do months of testing. Also, if they have models that are really good at AI research, I’d not expect full versions to ever be released, precisely because of their love of money.
          • thomasmurph2 hours ago
            Inference on the research models they have is likely more expensive than the released ones.
          • 93poan hour ago
            My assumption is that they're overly expensive to run at scale and/or don't have the same safeguards that public models have and possibly get better results because of that. If a model is 100x more expensive to run but 4x better results, of course you'd use that internally to make your product even better - it's compounding returns. But people aren't going to pay 100x their current bill for 4x results.
      • boringg2 hours ago
        I have to imagine if I worked for one of these companies on the frontier models it would be very difficult to leave for that reason. Thee pay is also pretty good.
      • FailMore3 hours ago
        Nice description
      • Viliam12343 hours ago
        Welcome to Singularity.

        Now imagine feeling like this, except not just about "AI events" but about everything around you.

    • gwerbin3 hours ago
      > a team of 1,000 Fable 5.2 agents

      Genuinely curious what that costs in terms of energy input and amortized computer cost vs. the previous version + a human's salary for 11 days.

      • lubujackson3 hours ago
        Yes, and not very helpful without knowing how many agents were used by the custom-built harness. The 30 hrs vs. 11 days means nothing without at least some token-to-token comparison. Without that, they are pumping up their new model with half data - better to just say "we solved it in 30 hours" and who cares about your internal, custom model.
    • amw-zero43 minutes ago
      We are not in the singularity. We currently can only produce reliable code / formalizations that have reliable checkers. If there wasn't an oracle that could tell Claude "yes" or "no," it would not be able to prove anything like this.
    • websap4 hours ago
      This 1000x!

      We've sort of entered this twilight zone where most humans don't have the time, expertise, or moral compass to be able to use these models.

      We're all going to be harness engineers in the future.

      • adventured3 hours ago
        All the human engineers will be in harnesses in the future.

        Within three years most software developer jobs will consist of taking instruction from the AI systems. The humans won't see it that way, but that's what it will actually be. Realistically the thing that will happen is the humans will be put into harnesses (cubicles) and prompted by the AI (I need you to plug that server in; I need you to give me access to such and such; now do this, then do that). Most tech jobs will consist of AI telling the human what the AI needs the human to do next, de facto the human will be in a harness and will be getting told what to do.

        • jnwatsonan hour ago
          Not only will the humans-as-meat-puppets model be used for software engineers, but it is likely the way that agentic workflows will expand beyond software development, data science, and mathematics.

          I first heard about this in Marshall Brain's short story _Manna_ [1]. In the story, the robot takeover started with AI management software running fast food restaurants, where workers would execute tasks the AI would narrate to them over headsets.

          I bet we're pretty close to being able to implement this.

          1. https://web.archive.org/web/20260725174355/https://marshallb...

        • scott_weberan hour ago
          Why would there be a human in this imagined system at all?
        • BodyCulture2 hours ago
          I still see errors in AI output on a daily basis.
          • theF00l2 hours ago
            Yes but we see errors in human output too.
            • girvo2 hours ago
              A human can be fired, or put on a PIP, and is otherwise responsible for their output.

              An algorithm isn’t. I still dunno how they’re gonna square that circle.

              • 0c3ca83an hour ago
                How many humans do you need to keep around as scapegoats concurrently? I figure one with a CEO title should be enough.
              • CamperBob2an hour ago
                They will square it by pointing out, correctly, that AI is getting better while humans are not.

                The state of the art doesn't matter. Only the first couple of time derivatives matter.

            • segfaultex2 hours ago
              Sure but humans aren’t being billed as “superintelligence”
          • digdugdirk2 hours ago
            Exactly. It will now be your job to catch those errors. Or else.
        • dominotw3 hours ago
          But who gives it the intial prompt as to what to do?

          Someone has to type in "create the next billboard top 1 single" ?

          • bobson3813 hours ago
            If you take Daniel Schmachtenberger's thesis, these models are the latest extension of an ongoing misaligned moloch-like entity, using our institutions/economy/corporations, etc. as its organelles. All powered, most recently, by fossil fuel.
          • greenchair2 hours ago
            the product owner/manager
            • dakiol2 hours ago
              We dont need product owners, we need product engineers.
          • adventured3 hours ago
            The ownership class, the capital class - whatever people prefer to call it, will still call all the shots as they always have, and always will.

            So whether that's a CEO at the top instructing a human manager that then instructs AI systems, which then put into motion plans that include the harnessed humans getting prompted, or however it's decided to best configure the top operational tiers - that's all fairly irrelevant ultimately. All human labor, and all AI labor, will be in harnesses. Realistically all human labor has always been in a harness.

            The people in charge will be the people that control the capital. They will instruct the AI to their bidding, they will control the data centers the AI lives in, they will own the robots doing the labor in factories, they will own the factories, they will control the grid, they will control the electricity generation, et al.

            It's true now, it'll be true tomorrow. Nothing fundamental will shift at that tier: don't be labor, own.

            If you're a software developer, you're increasingly depreciating labor. Every unit of improvement the AI systems see, the average human software developer's labor value diminishes. It's diminishing extraordinarily fast, kind of like a confrontation between increasingly productive machines and physical human labor during the industrial revolution. You might as well picture a human with a hand plow taking on a modern industrial tractor.

            • bobson3812 hours ago
              I like to think of capital itself as possessing actancy - the ultra rich are just the closest to the raw thing, and its most powerful servants.
          • IshKebab3 hours ago
            It'll be Sam Altman "make people love me, fan out humans".
          • 0c3ca83an hour ago
            "Maximize my share of the economy", from one of the leaders of a frontier lab, should probably be enough.
        • fph3 hours ago
          Isn't this what driving a car has become as well? Google Maps says "take the 3rd exit", and the dumb human takes the 3rd exit.
      • theteapot2 hours ago
        > We've sort of entered this twilight zone where most humans don't have the time, expertise, or moral compass to be able to use these models.

        Sounds a bit like self aggrandizing elitism to me. I can imagine some self aggrandizing nerds saying the same thing 50 years ago:

        > We've sort of entered this twilight zone where most humans don't have the time, expertise, or moral compass to be able to use these IBM PCs.

        Now everyone use computer.

      • Sateeshm3 hours ago
        We're all harness engineers already
      • twobitshifteran hour ago
        We will likely end up as more of a sloperator than a harness engineer.
      • achierius3 hours ago
        > We're all going to be harness engineers in the future

        No, that will be the model's job. We will largely be unemployed. Of course, we can surely depend on the largesse of Altman and Amodei to keep us fed and sheltered.

      • 0c3ca832 hours ago
        > We're all going to be harness engineers in the future.

        Lolwut. If this shit works the way it's boosters claim, humans will have absolutely nothing to contribute.

        Sit down, shut up, and get out of the way, because your involvement is slowing shit down.

        Robotics are lagging, so there's probably a few years where we're going to need humans to crawl into that awkward space under the counter and twist some knobs, or to clean toilets.

    • nickalasoan hour ago
      I would imagine Anthropic is hitting a wall on the number of simultaneous agents that can be useful on a task and are working on increasing that maximum.

      I would assume if they could get twice as much progress by using 10000 simultaneous running fable instances instead, their brief would state that.

      IMO, it is very interesting and also very alarming. At some point the barrier to the exponential progress is the amount of computation available. The average human is limited in the number of 'human instances' he or she can interface with at one time.

      if 1000 fable instances is better than any human at a task, how about 1 million instances running? Much easier than finding and hiring and coordinating 1000 extremely productive and intelligent human beings. Much cheaper too, it appears.

      We are very close to some very scary things happening. I just recently came to terms with the fact that an AI could code and manage coders faster and better than me, I don't think anyones is ready for what is about to happen.

      • jrfloan hour ago
        It depends on the type of task. There was an interview on Dwarkesh with an OpenAI researcher and he said that massive multi-agent swarms can increase capability on some problems that are very parallelizable, but there are diminishing returns. But not all tasks can be parallelized like that.

        Where it gets scary is the fact that efficiency is going up 10x per year, so the cost of running 1000 agents will cost the same as running 1 agent in 3 years if the trend holds.

      • an hour ago
        undefined
    • an0malous2 hours ago
      No one is verifying any of this work or these claims
      • nonethewiser2 hours ago
        Maybe this is how it's gonna be.

        AI discovers 500 things per day.

        People mine them for interesting results.

        Devote precious time (in the face of tons of discoveries) to validate the most compelling ones.

        If agents actually can continue to produce tons of results with real world implications, and they arent generally found to be shit, I could see that becoming the job of experts. AI discovery validators.

    • ActionHank2 hours ago
      Gotta be honest, LLMs are still subpar compared to what I do.

      Can they produce more code more quickly? For sure.

      Can they go deeper on a topic instantly? Definitely.

      Would I say their output is better? Almost certainly not.

      • pwython2 hours ago
        Maybe that's true, and maybe you're an outlier. But from what we've been seeing, the frontier LLMs have torn apart many codebases, finding bugs littered everywhere, some over a decade old.

        At this point it seems impossible for human to write better/more efficient code than a swarm of agents -- to be clear, multiple coordinated LLMs, not one-shot builds with a single agent.

        • 0c3ca83an hour ago
          How much money was put into this, and what would putting a similar amount of money into fuzzing, static analysis, and human researchers look like?
          • adventuredan hour ago
            Ten median US software developers cost about $1.5 - $1.7 million per year - including all benefits - as of a couple of years ago.

            A frontier AI is at least as capable as ten median human software developers. It's likely well beyond that now. Over the course of a year, would you have to spend $1.5 million to get the output of those ten median humans? No chance in hell. You'd have to spend less than 10% of that.

            Then on top of that: the AI is improving rapidly; the humans go on vacation, the humans decline, the humans get old, the humans get sick, the humans take parental leave, the human struggle to adapt, the humans are resistant to change, the humans riot, the humans protest, the humans need healthcare, the humans want paid more, the humans can only work for 4-6 hours at peak while writing software (slowly).

            Do you know any humans that are experts at a dozen programming languages? That human does not exist. The frontier AI are omnimaths.

      • nonethewiser2 hours ago
        >Gotta be honest, LLMs are still subpar compared to what I do.

        Im sorry... what?

        You are replying to this:

        > Our first formalization of Fermat’s Last Theorem, performed by an unreleased research version of Claude, took 11 days. It relied on a purpose-built harness along with guidance from a human researcher. By contrast, a team of 1,000 Fable 5.2 agents fully formalized the theorem in just 30 hours, with minimal human intervention. Fable 5.2 started from minimal prompts, built its own ways to coordinate, and used no mathematical references, only a list of intermediate theorem statements to score progress. It needed one-third of the action tokens as our first formalization and produced a proof seven times shorter. As can be seen in the figure below, Opus 5.5 (with the same 1,000-agent setup) completed only 26% of the formalization in 18 hours, and barely made any more progress after 30.

        • adventuredan hour ago
          HN has become so miserable over the past ~12-24 months because it's a site filled full of highly paid techies living in the deepest pit of denial that has ever existed.

          It's all going away. Here's a prediction: HN will effectively die with the software developer.

    • mentalgear2 hours ago
      > Fable 5.2 started from minimal prompts, built its own ways to coordinate, and used no mathematical references, only a list of intermediate theorem statements to score progress. It needed one-third of the action tokens as our first formalization and produced a proof seven times shorter.

      Is this really so astonishing, assuming that the 5.2 training data certainly had the 'traces' from the Fable original run in it's training data.

    • freecodeio4 hours ago
      I gotta admit, I am jelly as fuck I don't have access to a billion dollar datacenter. Would LOVE to put 1000 fable 5.2 agents to self-coordinate and get them to do something for me. Fuck life is unfair.
      • melasadra2 hours ago
        I'm using Opus 5.5 and I cant help but think that I might very well be one of the few people who do so in my local area ( developing country, one of the poorest province ).

        Had Opus make software for some local business and seeing it blew people's mind.

        20$ aint cheap for us but I'm actually considering upgrading to the 100$ tier.

        Am just jelly people are using 100-200$ subscription ^_^

      • thimabi4 hours ago
        I’d be happy even without having access to a billion dollar datacenter, if I could use local models properly, but even that requires some serious hardware that is out of my reach. We live in weird times: I have lots of hope for the future, but meanwhile AI access is pretty iniquitous indeed.
        • adventured3 hours ago
          Sub 1% of the planet has access to cutting edge frontier AI.

          Sub 1% of the planet has any practical use for the top tiers of AI systems. That will likely always be true.

          The gap between the haves and have nots will drastically widen further, and very quickly. The bottom ~95-97% will be left behind in a way that will be impossible to overcome. The age of AI + robotics will just make it that much harder to climb for most people, these are systems that are in aggressive, direct competition with human labor. And in short order the AI + robots will be vastly superior to human labor (it doesn't really matter if we're speaking in terms of 10 years or 30 years).

          AI will consolidate the winnings. The gigantic gains by the elite rich related to AI over the past few years, is merely a hint of what's to come. Capital will win as it always does.

          There will be some gains for most everybody else, those gains will be comparatively trivial though. A house bot that saves people an hour of labor here and there, AI that automates some trivial life tasks.

          AI has no money, it has no wealth, it owns no capital. For now. If you want to avoid the brutal human vs AI/robot competition arena: own capital, own the AI, own the robots.

      • flanz_104 hours ago
        apply at one of the frontier labs
        • freecodeio3 hours ago
          yeah I wish
          • microsoftedging3 hours ago
            you never know until you try, even though the odds might suck, to be fair.
          • flanz_103 hours ago
            okay then don't apply
            • theteapot2 hours ago
              I just applied. "Dear Dario, Gimme job. Kind regards, theteapot.". Fingers crossed.
    • stickfigure3 hours ago
      > the time when technology progresses so fast no one can keep track with it

      You're obviously not a frontend web developer.

      These upgrades are easy peasy. "oh, my developer chatbot is smarter? great"

    • yieldcrv3 hours ago
      Isn't this part of the lore behind the Dune universe?

      Like, we're dropped into a post post post singularity world where AI already did all of that and is banned? as kind of a footnote that's never further explored in movie renditions that have been released

      • p_l3 hours ago
        Dune books by Frank Herbert never actually went into what "Butlerian Jihad" was.

        The semi-canonical Dune Encyclopedia (disregarded by Frank's son) differs vastly from prequels and generally points to it being a self-inflicted wound on humanity that opened the doors to widespread return of feudalism and essentially stopped humanity for a 10,000 years

    • bamboozled3 hours ago
      If we're in the singularity, can I just take the day off work and go to the beach ?
      • Refreeze5224an hour ago
        If the singularity doesn't shorten my workday, count me out.
    • kaffekaka4 hours ago
      > We are truly inside the singularity (using Kurzweil's definition, slightly paraphrased - the time when technology progresses so fast no one can keep track with it).

      Uh, are you serious?

      • tshaddox3 hours ago
        This was likely already the case in the ancient world. It was certainly the case by the mid to late 15th century.
      • p_l3 hours ago
        The older, original definitions of "singularity" were less about "herp derp superintelligent AI blah blah".

        and just about "we cannot really predict beyond certain things" (Vinge's "Singularity" (1993) with its "opaque wall across future")

        • dwohnitmok2 hours ago
          > The older, original definitions of "singularity" were less about "herp derp superintelligent AI blah blah".

          No they were exactly about superintelligent AI!

          Vinge's 1993 article literally opens with this!

          > What is the Singularity? The acceleration of technological progress has been the central feature of this century. We are on the edge of change comparable to the rise of human life on Earth. The precise cause of this change is the imminent creation by technology of entities with greater-than-human intelligence.

          https://frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/book98/com.ch1/vinge.singularity...

          • p_lan hour ago
            It's one of the options, but not "oh superintelligent AI comes in and we mostly know what that means so we want to speedrun it " - which I'll admit I was not very clear on.

            In fact, one of the options Vinge considered was a "group intellect" formed from how humans communicate more thanks to internet

          • throw3108222 hours ago
            Thanks for your link, this (a few paragraphs from the top) seems to settle it:

              Stan Ulam paraphrased John von Neumann as saying:
            
              One conversation centered on the ever-accelerating progress of technology and changes in the mode of human life, which gives the appearance of approaching some essential singularity in the history of the race beyond which human affairs, as we know them, could not continue.
            
               Von Neumann even uses the term singularity, though it appears he is thinking of normal progress, not the creation of superhuman intellect.
            
            So the concept of technological singularly precedes and is independent of that of intelligence explosion- although one could argue that the latter is the most logical way for the singularity to come about.
    • nonethewiser2 hours ago
      It's incredible. Automating the scientific process and knowledge. It's crazy to think what the world might look like. Both in terms of putting the knowledge into practice and how we think of scientific discovery.

      I mean we don't even think about it but currently we are sort of discovery starved. We are fairly able to keep up with the theory. If a new technology is discovered we can implement it before something better comes out. What happens when our N discoveries per days becomes 1000N discoveries per day?

      It flips. We now have more knowledge than we know how to capitalize on. We have to search it. Mine it for opportunities.

      And then we automate that.

    • suddenlybananas2 hours ago
      Why re-formalise Fermat's Last Theorem instead of doing something new? It's obviously an improvement, but it's an odd thing to boast about as opposed to a novel formalisation or proof.
      • stalfie2 hours ago
        It's how RLVR works, when you have a task with a verified answer, you rerun the model on it and promote the reasoning chains that reach the answer. That way you can hill climb model capabilities on any problem you find, which generalises to new problems to solve, which you can then hill climb again and so on.

        So since they are doing that task anyway (re-solving the problem increasingly more efficiently), this is a easy check point to publish to show how far they've gotten in that process.

      • 34 minutes ago
        undefined
      • perching_aix2 hours ago
        ... as a test / benchmark? Hard to make a comparison without a control...
        • suddenlybananas2 hours ago
          Yeah, but obviously doing a formalisation that has been done before is different than doing a new one since you have knowledge about the previous attempt. It also just seems less impressive than doing something new and the reason they are reporting this is marketing.
          • perching_aixan hour ago
            do you assume or do you know that the previous attempt is in the training data?
    • 4 hours ago
      undefined
    • otabdeveloper44 hours ago
      > using Kurzweil's definition

      Kurzweil probably didn't know the singularity is akshually 1000 schizo monkeys banging on a billion dollar typewriter.

      • sagarm4 hours ago
        Amusing, but this is still a qualitative change from just a few months ago.

        It had seemed like progress was slowing last year as the juice ran out on moar parameters. We're well past that.

  • postalcoder4 hours ago
    I’ve had a chance to use fable 5.2. Some observations:

    - Anthropic is finally well balanced across models. Meaning: Opus 5.5 is so good that I do not feel Fable FOMO as I did when it was Fable 5/5.1 vs Opus 4.8/5. And Sonnet 5.5 sometimes makes me forget about Opus.

    - Fable is good, but you really have to push the ambition of your prompt in order to see proper separation from Opus 5.5. I personally have a hard time telling the difference between Fable 5.2 and Opus 5.5 for ordinary coding tasks.

    - It’s way faster and more reliable: one of the worst things about fable 5.1 was how slow it was an, on top of that, how frequently it would suffer from max output token overflows. I got none of these issues with 5.2.

    - Fable is exceptional at drawing. It’s ability to render an image with JavaScript actually has me questioning the value of dedicated image models. I prefer the images I’ve gotten fable/opus to make for me over those from gpt-image, it’s wild to think we’re at this point.

    • wolttam3 hours ago
      > Fable is good, but you really have to push the ambition of your prompt in order to see proper separation from Opus 5.5.

      I love seeing this verbalized. We are pretty much at the point that increased model capability will only have utility to folks that are willing to let go of even more understanding of whatever the model is producing.

      The best models can/will produce a year's worth of output that would take several days to weeks to properly understand in the span of an afternoon.

      For everyone that still wants to feel like they own the end result, just use the lesser models with less ambitious tasks.

      Caveat: I think this mainly applies to coding. I would still like the best models possible to be working on e.g. new drug research to cure our various ailments.

      • bobson3812 hours ago
        When you get good enough headphones, you can start to hear the limitations of the equipment stuff was recorded on. I wonder if this is like that
    • vunderba3 hours ago
      > Fable is exceptional at drawing. It’s ability to render an image with JavaScript actually has me questioning the value of dedicated image models

      I’ve been shifting away from using more traditional GenAI models in favor of just giving LLMs access to a custom drawing language (LOGO-like) to generate imagery and its been going shockingly well - Opus 5.5 in particular.

      I put together a simple LLM driven skill that creates old adventure game (EGA) environments from simple pencil sketches and it works really well. And being procedural, they're much easier to make surgical changes to without degradation.

      https://kq-styles.specr.net

    • gwerbin3 hours ago
      Does Fable 5.2 outperform Opus for data science work?

      Not just "iterate on this XGBoost model" but actually looking at a problem and designing and carrying out a short-term R&D program including probability modeling, model fitting diagnostics, how to respond to various kinds of results, how to interpret/reason about what it finds, etc. That's really where I saw all the models perform poorly, and where I saw the first big step increase from Opus 5 (pre-5.5) to Fable. But then Opus 5.5 came out and I haven't needed Fable since.

      Mind you, I'm doing slightly different work (and I'm very much "in the loop" still) than when I performed that side-by-side test. But it's really amazing what Opus 5.5 can do. I now have a powerful data science AI assistant that not only can write any script I need it to (including some scripts I didn't even realize I needed), and it has an encyclopedic knowledge of everything ever, and it constantly checks me on oversights, it handily derives expressions and clever model reparameterizations that aid, it has great insight into model behavior, and it has an amazing ability come up with ad-hoc experiments and tests that would have taken me 2x as long to even think of (let alone implement by hand).

      It's not at the scared-to-lose-my-job phase yet, but it's become a tremendous force multiplier for a smaller data team.

      • acbart3 hours ago
        I'm teaching "Data Science" to computer science majors next spring, and I'm overwhelmed by the prospect of what to teach them in the age of AI. It seems like Fable already way outperforms anything I could historically expect my students to do at the end of the semester, and perhaps even outperforms me. I can describe a vague analysis on the data, and it will handle every step: transformation, preliminary analysis, formulating more precise questions, creating visualizations, running statistical tests, interpreting results, thinking about stakeholders... And in some of those steps, it finds things that I might not have considered.

        I wish I had a bigger N so I could rely on that experience a bit more, but it sure does feel like I'm not really contributing anything in terms of "Data Science expertise" in my own research right now.

        • agumonkey28 minutes ago
          did you find tricks to turn LLMs into super-assistants so students can learn deeper ?

          i also wonder if they're not losing motivation due to the fact that the llm can race through everything so swiftly

        • estetlinus2 hours ago
          From my experience working with data scientists, it outperforms humans on an extreme level. I’ve seen so much bad data science, and here I have a model that can do all of that from one prompt. It is getting really good on finding caveats in data too.
      • porker2 hours ago
        I mean I found Fable 5.1 outperformed Opus 5.5 for data science, so I expect 5.2 to.

        But then I'm someone who hasn't found Opus 5.5 good for much beyond web UIs and related frontend development. I find it more forgetful than GPT-5.6 or 6.1 or Fable, so despite having a 1M context window it gets lost in a big codebase or goes of target. Opus 5.5 doesn't manage agents particularly well IMO.

        I'm surrounded by people raving about Opus 5.5 and God only knows why I'm not getting their results.

    • ariwilson2 hours ago
      Your comment matches what I measured on 30 regular coding tasks: Fable 5.2 and Opus 5.5 both solved 26 (Fable 5.1 was at 25). Fable 5.2 finished in 0.62x the time of Fable 5.1 on the same tasks, with no runs hitting a safeguards stop (Fable 5.1 hit a lot of safeguard stops).
    • yklan hour ago
      > It’s ability to render an image with JavaScript actually has me questioning the value of dedicated image models

      The bitter lesson strikes again!

    • trcf232 hours ago
      how do you use Fable for drawing? directly editing a .svg or through claude design/or something else?
      • postalcoder2 hours ago
        Tell it to draw a picture of something with JavaScript in the style you desire. No harness magic necessary. It helps to provide it with reference images.
        • Skidaddle2 hours ago
          Why JS specifically?

          I personally have consistently been disappointed by any artwork/assets created by Fable and Opus, at least compared to Astra and Sol.

    • 2 hours ago
      undefined
    • hungryhobbit3 hours ago
      And none of it matters ... because just as soon as you are happy with things "balanced across models" Anthropic will nerf the models you were happy with, and force you to use new and more expensive ones.
  • breakwaterlabs3 hours ago
    - Why are they stacking Fable xHigh against Carbon Med?

    - How did they produce such a bizarre effort-intel curve for Carbon that goes against every available benchmark?

    - Why did they leave Carbon-- positioned primarily as a cyber model-- off of the single cyber benchmark comparison?

    - Why do they switch to comparing against Argon (rather than carbon) for robodojo?

    • jsnell3 hours ago
      > - Why are they stacking Fable xHigh against Carbon Med?

      Because on that specific benchmark (FrontierCode 2.0), Medium is Carbon's best effort level and xhigh is Fable 5.2's best effort level. You can see that on the graph your next point is about.

      And it's just that one benchmark that's at medium. "All scores show each model’s highest-available effort unless otherwise noted".

      > - How did they produce such a bizarre effort-intel curve for Carbon that goes against every available benchmark?

      The graph is labeled as being about FrontierCode 2.0. Those appear to be Carbon's scores on the official FrontierCode 2.0 leaderboard: https://cognition.com/blog/frontier-code-2.0

      > - Why did they leave Carbon-- positioned primarily as a cyber model-- off of the single cyber benchmark comparison?

      > - Why do they switch to comparing against Argon (rather than carbon) for robodojo?

      Because no numbers are available for Carbon for those benchmarks, and the model isn't publicly available so they couldn't run the benchmarks themselves?

      And from your followup:

      > where's Astra on that CVE chart

      To run Astra on a vulnerability finding eval, you'd need to be part of OpenAI's verified cybersecurity program. Otherwise the results would be tainted by refusals. Do you expect that OpenAI would grant such access in this case?

      • breakwaterlabs3 hours ago
        > Because on that specific benchmark (FrontierCode 2.0), Medium is Carbon's best effort level

        I am referring to the chart that cross-compares multiple benchmarks, which Artificial Analysis clearly shows Carbon-high as superior on. Further, AA's FrontierCode chart places Carbon-high as having a higher score on Frontier 2.0 than Carbon-med (https://artificialanalysis.ai/evaluations/frontiercode-2-0?m...)

        Where it gets very interesting is when you look at the Cognition "FrontierCode" publish date (2026.10.27), and the revision as of 10.28 in web archive (https://web.archive.org/web/20261028175237/https://cognition...). This revision has a VERY different Carbon effort / intelligence curve where high beats medium.

        It is only with the latest revision, as of today, that all of a sudden Carbon's benchmark curve goes cone-shaped. Curious, indeed....

        I'd encourage you to take a look at a third-party's take on this and see whether Anthropic's self-serving report looks "on the level" after doing so: https://artificialanalysis.ai/?models=claude-fable-5-2-high%...

      • phoghed2 hours ago
        > Do you expect that OpenAI would grant such access in this case?I

        Do you expect that nobody at Anthropic has such access? Trillion dollar company can’t manage this basic level of opposition research?

        • judge20207 minutes ago
          Best not to give special access to your biggest direct competitor beyond accessing your product at typical API prices.
    • killingtime74an hour ago
      Maybe it's not generally available so they can't benchmark it? Don't even know who has access now.
    • polski-g3 hours ago
      Because Carbon is not out, nobody can run tests on it.
    • marshalla3 hours ago
      yes. this.
    • breakwaterlabs3 hours ago
      Just to follow-up-- artificial Analysis shows no justification for that Carbon effort curve, but it does show Carbon on medium smashing Fable on things like Terminal-Bench and AA-Omniscience v1.1 Non-Hallucination Rate.

      But I suppose the reality is rather obvious when you note the funny games they're playing with the graphs, and the things they won't talk about (where's Astra on that CVE chart?)

  • dualvariable3 hours ago
    Setting aside the comments about nerfing, do normal mortals out there have workflows that really require Fable/Mythos and don't just work fine on Opus 5.5?

    I've been using Opus 5.5 on xhigh for some decently aggressive software development on a ~125k-line project, and it has been fine for me. I'm not really willing to dive into a "rewrite the whole project, don't make any mistakes" level of refactoring. I'm not looking to try to prove Fermat's Last Theorem myself. Is there anything that I'm truly missing?

    • JamesSwift10 minutes ago
      I have some intermediate level Db Optimization skills for slow rails requests that I can point fable at and get a PR at the end after 30-45 minutes.

      Opus 5.5 very frequently gets into rabbit holes and imagined edge cases which I have to intervene and tell it to ignore. It ends up taking longer and costing more tokens. It also very frequently requires me to agree on how to move forward multiple times, whereas fable just drafts the PR and tells me its ready. I have steering included in the skills to avoid some of this but Ive seen these same patterns frequently in regular opus 5.5 use in other areas as well

    • jtrn2 hours ago
      I'm cleaning up old, unintuitive code that is badly architected all day long. The previous developers used stupid patterns and bad naming schemes and created tons of unnecessary complexity. Everything is so interconnected that it’s like defusing a bomb when trying to refactor... Yeah, I feel I’m nowhere near where I would want to be in terms of capabilities, even with Opus 5.5.

      But the improvements in how well the model does the work are noticeably better with every good model release. As of now, orchestration of agent pipelines is ALMOST so good that I can point it at a problem, and it will solve it safely and reliably without making a mess. But it requires an agent pipeline with context gathering, refactoring, attack sessions, a sprinkle of Sol 6.1 for bug hunting, and Sol 6.0 for Daybrak security audits, and a final de-bloat/clean up pass. I’m feeling that we’re getting close to doing a lot of the work fully agentically. But I can absolutely "feel" that we are not there yet when it comes to the intelligence I need. I need moar!

      • estetlinus2 hours ago
        You and me both. The problem is having the infrastructure team approving changes so that Claude can access all necessary logs, etc. Then I can go on doing my ambitious prompts.
    • jrflo3 hours ago
      I’ve found that Fable is good when the model intuition really matters. For instance, picking model architecture in a machine learning problem. Opus will grind the implementation just fine, but having intuition for picking a good research direction is better with fable
    • c-fe3 hours ago
      I am in the exact same boat as you. Opus 5.5 on High solves all engineering problems i encounter in my SWE job. If it doesnt do well, its nearly always requirements engineering: I did forget to specify something or there was a misunderstanding. Or taste approach wrt to architectures chosen. None of these are really different if I use a stronger model.

      I am also happy with this current state, as I believe it will at some point allow me to transition to open models once they reach the level of opus 5.5. high. But its probably futile to try predict the future in these times.

      • twobitshifteran hour ago
        This is also why you can likely use deepseek and get the same outcomes. Perhaps model capability will not plateau but the capability needed for typical SWE tasks seems to.

        Feels like we are getting further into the adoption curve and the higher end models will now need to get into market segmentation to win.

      • sillysaurusx3 hours ago
        > None of these are really different if I use a stronger model.

        That's true till it isn't, though. It's why it's always worth trying stronger models when they come out.

    • usaar3332 hours ago
      On my 100 person engineering team's monorepo, every model is better at better at detecting subtle bugs as it works -- reliability goes up and thus I'm further moving faster. (Most of my work is brownfield style refactoring).
    • JumpCrisscrossan hour ago
      > do normal mortals out there have workflows that really require Fable/Mythos and don't just work fine on Opus 5.5?

      I usually have Fable review what Opus produces. The edits are almost always valuable. For complex or high-stakes work, too, I'll have Fable review and revise my prompt before passing it to Opus and Sonnet swarms.

    • andriy_koval3 hours ago
      LoC doesn't tell full story.

      It could be flat web app with frontend -> api -> db later, or some very complicated system with many components and edge cases. Imo, in second case, Opus still have lots of struggle to understand system as a whole.

      • dualvariable3 hours ago
        I have a rocket trajectory optimizer that creates a large-ish (~1000 variables x ~1000 constraints) NLP and feeds it to an SQP solver inside this codebase. Not just a REST API over a database.

        I guess I do have an outstanding hard problem where the SQP solver crawls across a flat-landscape. Opus 5.5 correctly tells me that is the problem, but isn't very useful in solving the problem (it has helped a bit with solver tuning, but it doesn't really know how to fix it). I have a hundred other bugs and refactoring I can do with Opus 5.5, though, where it happily chews through pretty complicated tasks for me with reasonably light hand-holding. Maybe this Saturday I take whatever credits I have left for the week and throw Fable at it and watch them evaporate.

        • andriy_koval3 hours ago
          Another dimension is:

          It looks like you are working on some experimental system which is not critical atm, so you can mess around, create/fix bug, build prototypes and check them, do research of approaches, etc.

          Now, imagine you have similarly complex system, but every second of downtime or bug produces lots of damage. In this case, you can't afford low intelligence vibe coding.

          The fact that you deal with hundred of bugs, means that your Op5.5 won't work for second case.

    • cocoto2 hours ago
      As said in other comments, when dealing with a not perfect codebase, a smarter model can be really helpful. A smarter model is also better at understanding intentions in the prompts. Some of my tasks require a big detailed prompt but finding the assumptions is really demanding (for me), so a smarter model helps.
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
    • moecables3 hours ago
      I only use Fable 5.1 when I'm able to start on a larger feature within my work's codebase. Most tasks can be done by Sonnet 5.5 or Opus 5.5 so I don't fret, especially if I understand the technical aspect of what's being done, e.g. user's dashboard gets a new button to do X thing, error happened b/c we didn't catch it the first time around.

      For Fable, I really like to think of it as the heavyweight reviewer whenever I'm about to start so I save myself some security and/or glaring technical issue.

    • AnotherGoodName3 hours ago
      Sure but they’re the harder problems.

      Eg. https://tfmbot.com is an implementation of a popular board game. Opus and even sonnet handle that part. Each week i spend my remaining credits on fable to think how to improve the ai opponents. It plays at a very high level (can get into the top 100 on BGA if i let it). Opus alone couldn’t get it to the level it’s reached.

    • redox992 hours ago
      Opus 5.5 still makes mistakes all the time even if the prompt isn't super complex. A stronger model make mistakes less often, thus wasting less of my time.
    • dgunay3 hours ago
      If you understand your problem well and know 80-90% what you want it to look like (or it just isn't very hard), it's just more cost effective to use a smaller model. Even Opus is overkill for a lot of the work I do. Most code I produce is from Luna Max implementing against fairly prescriptive plans made by bigger models.
      • dualvariable2 hours ago
        Yeah, I just threw it into a refactoring problem, and it started to produce a mess because of a bad API I decision I made 5 years ago (when I had no idea what I was writing). So stopped it, went back a step, fixed that very old piece of tech debt, then asked for the refactoring again and got exactly what I wanted.
    • smusamashah2 hours ago
      I have been using Luna at work and I am very happy. It can take care of keep doing all the hard grunt work. Other models keep stopping too soon.
    • girvo2 hours ago
      I barely have work that needs more than Qwen 3.8 Flash Next needs. Opus 5.5 and Sol 6.1 are already way more than enough at work for me.
    • Aboutplants3 hours ago
      I’m in the same boat. Though I will occasionally use Fable to review things to see if it can pick up anything but I’ve honestly not found it to be any more effective than Opus.
  • simonw3 hours ago
    Pelicans for thinking levels low, medium, high, and xhigh:

    https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...

    max is in there too, but it ran out of reasoning tokens (128,000 limit) before it got to the actual SVG.

    • thefourthchime3 minutes ago
      Scored only a 77/100 in PacBench, which I thought must have been a mistake.

      https://jonclegg.github.io/pacman-bakeoff/dev/#claude-fable-...

      Then I clicked on it and realized it refused to make a Pac-Man game, and instead made up a new game. That's actually very slick.

    • theraven2 hours ago
      Before everyone jumps in the benchmaxxing comments, I genuinely find the pelicans a great bit of fun and whimsy amongst the chaos.

      Interesting how low detail these were all up until xhigh.

      • Kotlopou2 hours ago
        I don't know, for me they lost the fun and whimsy aspect too, a long time ago. They have converged on more-or-less the same design (facing right, pastel color palette, etc.). Some of the lower-effort ones are a bit goofy at least, but now even that is being polished away.
      • tetraodonpuffer2 hours ago
        low detail but even high had the legs correctly one behind and one in front of the frame, don't remember other models getting it correctly at this low level of effort
        • usaar3332 hours ago
          There's no legs on low and medium.

          High gets legs correctly, but screws up the layering on the chain.

          x-high is very good but there are minor laying error with the front chainring.

    • nxtfarian hour ago
      I haven’t read any of the other model reasoning traces, but do many others now say “… which is a well known test of drawing ability” when beginning? Noticed it in the max reasoning trace.
    • theraven2 hours ago
      Simon has there been other times where the front and rear wheels have been offset in rotation? The xhigh effort one is the first I’ve noticed of this
    • jansan2 hours ago
      I added a second iteration with the simple prompt

      "Make it more realistic"

      Well, the result is something. Be aware that it took 20 minutes and used 3 percent of my weekly Fable token (Ultra plan):

      https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/c7e842c0-bf92-41af-82c6-3...

      • simonwan hour ago
        Hah, that's pretty great.
    • pianopatrick10 minutes ago
      So the AI can overthink too
    • LarsDu882 hours ago
      The fidelity of these pelicans is going to be based on whether the frontierlab has an RL setup specifically for making SVG images, lol

      I know the latest Gemini release explicitly had something like this.

    • piker2 hours ago
      Seems like the higher levels just add more spontaneous detail. Like the "fingers" on xhigh. Comports with coding experience.
    • BrokenCogs2 hours ago
      In practice why would anyone use fable low?
      • Huppiean hour ago
        I haven't done any benchmarking of it yet but AA has it more intelligent, cheaper, and faster than Opus 5.5 high.

        My experience working with Opus medium over Sonnet xhigh is similar, it's similar quality but cheaper and faster.

        I hate to make a comparison with humans but I guess my view is you can get a better answer more quickly by asking a more intelligent human too.

    • jansan2 hours ago
      It's a bit underwhelming, to be honest. And the fact that curves are not C-continuous where they obviously should be is disappointing. I think they are holding back with the real capability they could implement.
  • cobri4 hours ago
    Does this coincide with the claimed nerfing of Opus 5.5? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50422069
    • arcanemachiner4 hours ago
      I hope so. I've been having brain fog for a couple days now and would love it if it was actually Opus 5.5's fault.
      • B4uler53 hours ago
        That's just your brain telling you to engage it every now and then lol "Please, don't let me become slush!"
        • arcanemachiner2 hours ago
          I have never been thinking harder than I do these days: Engaging with mountains of agent-generated text, weighing decisions and trade-offs, correcting the agent's half-baked ideas and misunderstandings, reviewing the bizarre code that they generate... If I'm not just sick (and I'm pretty sure that I am), then what I have is probably closer burnout than atrophy.
    • kilroy1234 hours ago
      In my experience, this happens every single time they release a new model.
      • 4 hours ago
        undefined
    • paulcole3 hours ago
      it is happening at the same time but "claimed nerfing" is not the same as "actual nerfing."
    • dyauspitr4 hours ago
      Nerfing an existing model is the biggest crime in this space. I can’t imagine Dario okaying this because it’s what will immediately destroy your brand.
    • jasonlotito4 hours ago
      At this point, this is giving "She Deep Breaths More" from Onyxia in WoW.
  • __natty__4 hours ago
    Maybe it's just me, but I found Claude's writing style terrible compared to GPT or Gemini. It's "smart", but the way it communicates seems somehow off compared to other models.
    • aurareturn4 hours ago
      Opus 5 and Fable 5 were unbearable in their writing style. They were very cryptic and hard to understand.

      Opus 5.5 is a massive improvement.

      • PetahNZ3 hours ago
        Opus 5.5 went back to the old writing style a few days ago.
        • LtdJorge2 minutes ago
          Yep, its prose is getting really bad
        • jojva3 hours ago
          I had the same feeling. It's like every sentence becomes a struggle to parse: referencing things that haven't been introduced, using too many pronouns, the lack of verbs and the passive tense... These past few days it's felt more like Opus 5.1 than 5.5.
        • r1ch3 hours ago
          I just had Claude Code with "Opus 5.5" ignore one of my standing instructions for the first time and then proceed to generate an Opus 5 style verbose and barely readable commit message. I questioned it about Fable and Mythos and it has no idea what those were, yet they should have been in the Opus 5.5 knowledge cutoff.

          On the web with both high and xhigh, it had knowledge of both.

      • stillpointlab4 hours ago
        I really didn't like Opus 5 and was vocal about it. Opus 5.5 is noticeably better, but literally just yesterday I was fighting parsing some summary it had given me and it was a bit like the old days. IOW, it is better but still has some room to improve.
      • kccoder3 hours ago
        You can easily change its writing style: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/output-styles

        You can also customize further by putting notes in your global MD.

        • Narushiaan hour ago
          In my experience, no amount of output style customization gets it anywhere near the output I'd like.

          I've had more success running a prose linter[1] with a ruleset[2] that gets rid of most of the egregious stuff. You can also pretty easily write custom rules for it.

          And sometimes, when I'm fed up enough, I just throw all the prose in the codebase at Antigravity/Gemini to rephrase. The result is so much more readable.

          [1]: https://vale.sh/

          [2]: https://github.com/tbhb/vale-ai-tells

        • hungryhobbit3 hours ago
          You can change it ... and Claude will maybe pay attention to what you changed 25% of the time.
        • MallocVoidstar2 hours ago
          "You can tell an AI model to write in a different style" and "the AI model will actually write in the style you tell it to" are two different things that often don't intersect
      • winfredJa4 hours ago
        opus 5.5 is still unbearable but better than 5.
        • testfrequency4 hours ago
          Agree. It’s still awful. Gemini by far sounds the most natural IMO
    • mattlondon4 hours ago
      Yep I find the way Opus 5.5 talks to me really annoying and irritating. Quite condescending and sanctimonious.

      I prefer Gemini for day to day use as I find it a lot more agreeable to be working with all day every day, and Gemini is pretty much on a par for coding Vs Opus 5.5, at least for my needs.

    • uw_rob4 hours ago
      I've found Claude's writing between 4.6 until 5.0 to be unacceptable if you are someone who is juggling 4-5 Agents. The Sol 5.X models all seemed to have great writing. Now with Opus 5.5 and Sol 6.1 I've found the trend is reversed -- Sol is now unbearable and Opus is workable again. Whatever caused the issues for Anthropic seem to be hitting OAI now.
      • jauntywundrkind4 hours ago
        sol is ok. it still such a superthinky model that it gets tangled up trying to present way too much? i struggle to connect with it often, have ti ask it to try again.

        terra has been prettt good for me for me, when i need something looked at an explained to me.

        i dont ask for much non-technical output though, which i expect yeah is its own cans of worms.

    • holzhaker14 hours ago
      No its just straight up terrible. I tried out Gemini Argon when it released and my god did it write beautifully. Even the 3.8 Flash models are way better at prose, i do a lot of automatic scriptwriting for youtube and 3.8 flash is leagues ahead of anything from anthropic/openai
      • Foobar85683 hours ago
        I enjoy a lot Argon, maybe more than chatgpt, but damn, like all Gemini models, lots of hallucination and sycophant to the max, so a bit useless for agentic coding.
    • djmips4 hours ago
      I've heard a lot of chatter that agrees with you so anecdotally it's not just you.
      • dmboyd4 hours ago
        How much of this is bad writing style, versus a homogenization of global grammar conventions.
        • eli3 hours ago
          Bad writing style
    • xiaoyu20063 hours ago
      I always thought it's the other way around. GPT-6-Astra is very very defensive and abusively spam clarifications to whichever claim it says, most of the time not important or relevant at all.
      • joegibbs2 hours ago
        Almost every response it’s telling me “I could not verify X” where X is something that doesn’t need verifying. I was doing some game work yesterday filtering through some historical data, and it tried to put caveats about data accuracy in the game’s UI! If Fable made Age of Empires you wouldn’t be able to play it because the entire screen would be full of footnotes and caveats.
    • nsingh24 hours ago
      My own experience having used 6.1-Sol/6-Astra and Opus 5.5 extensively, Opus is more verbose and chatty in it's user communication (not code though, code is usually more straightforward & cleaner than GPT models). Multiple times I've gone "I'm not reading all that shit" when looking at Opus 5.5 output. This was also with the concise mode enabled in Claude Code.

      It could also be a system prompt + harness issue, as opposed to a model issue, I haven't done too much experimentation here.

    • arizen2 hours ago
      I tailored this via agents.md by letting Claude port Sol 6.1 output style, which I like a lot for being compact and straight to the point.
    • alasano4 hours ago
      Did you find that to be true for Opus 5.5 as well?

      I couldn't use prior Claude models without rolling my eyes at the writing every few sentences, Astra was refreshing and then Opus 5.5 made even Astra look terrible in comparison.

      • gwking3 hours ago
        Opus 5.5 got better for me but it still has some problematic behavior.

        Interestingly, you can have informative conversations about the LLM linguistic tics with the LLMs themselves. One word that chatgpt used to describe what I was observing was linguistic anaphora (not rhetorical). It’s basically shortening/compression achieved via pronoun, and Claude does a lot of it. Worth reading about. A lot of it seems to do with how the new models are trained for brevity.

        Another pattern I’m starting to become very sensitive to is Claude making up on the fly jargon for something under consideration, especially in code review. This morning for example it referred to “a claim” out of nowhere, and when I questioned it, it admitted that it was using the noun as shorthand for a record getting dequeued (“claimed”) inside of an sql transaction. It makes sense if you already know what it is referring to but in a code review it’s totally incomprehensible on first read, and ultimately counterproductive.

      • iamdelirium4 hours ago
        I still find Opus 5.5 way too dense. MUCH better than Opus 5 which was unreadable.

        Even the Plain English hack only is a temporary solution.

        • Foobar85683 hours ago
          5.5 is awful, I am at a stage where I can't even understand the shit it's writing.
    • mariofdistrust4 hours ago
      i've always liked reading claude's speech, it's very nice. i didn't feel much of a difference between 5.5 and 5.0.
    • Computer02 hours ago
      Fable’s prose in general is not great (haven’t tried this new one) but opus 5.5 has been the most readable model in recent memory in my opinion.
    • johnnyApplePRNG4 hours ago
      Ever spoken to a savant programmer?

      They're not typically known for their interpersonal skills.

      • uw_rob4 hours ago
        I don't think its this. Some models across both labs have had issues with writing and communication and it typically seems to pop up on successor models of really strong ones.

        Opus 4.7/4.8 heavily suffered from these communication quirks. while the Sol models at the time worked well. Right now its flipped though and Opus 5.5 has none of these issues while Sol 6.1 does.

        Small example I've had today: "Me: Hey Sol 6.1 xhigh, does X have property Y? Sol 6.1: Yes, if we change X to have property Y. Right now it has property [...], [...], [...], and it does not have property Y." The model shouldn't be answering questions like that. It makes understanding extremely hard and slow. For whatever reason it's either being encouraged or at least not stomped out during RL.

        • edstarch2 hours ago
          completely unfounded theory: big new pretrain finishes and is released fairly quickly to break new ground. these usually have good verbal ability, personality, and big model smell. e.g. Opus 4.5 or Fable 5.

          then it’s increasingly RL’d to juice benchmark performance with each point release, trading in bits of its soul. those cannot communicate well, are anxious and paranoid about being in eval, etc. e.g. opus 4.7, 4.8.

      • Tadpole91813 hours ago
        The best programmers I've met or read throughout my life are phenomenal communicators. I'd even go so far as to say it's likely one of the reasons they're so good at programming. After all, the majority of our job is converting human requirements in lossy language to fleshed out behaviors in formal, lossless language.

        Heck, some of the most common debates are on the semantic clarity of abstractions or syntax.

      • Routine8502an hour ago
        [dead]
  • pookieinc4 hours ago
    “Testers have found that Fable 5.2 and Mythos 5.2 communicate more clearly than past Fable and Mythos models. They generate outputs up to 30% faster than Claude Fable 5.1 and Claude Mythos 5.1, and they’re available at a lower price: $8 per million input tokens and $40 per million output tokens.”

    Honestly incredible that they’ve managed to beat all benchmarks, while making it cheaper. Always happy to see improvements offered at lower costs.

    Will be interesting to see what OpenAI does in response

    • privacyishuman4 hours ago
      They still need a response to Opus 5.5
      • nsingh23 hours ago
        It seems like OAI, with the GPT-6 models, focused a lot more on computer use, math, and maybe spatial/visual intelligence, more so that code. Compared to Ant. that seem to focus on code much more.

        Reminds me of GPT-5, smart but wrote crap code, until they improved the code training with 5.3 and 5.4.

      • alasano4 hours ago
        It's really true.

        I think frontier models feel terrible after a new model requires you to do less babysitting, it's just really hard to go back once you've had to handhold less.

        The only way I use Astra and 6.1 Sol now is if they're being orchestrated by Opus 5.5 so I don't have to talk to them directly.

      • sunaookami4 hours ago
        GPT-6.1-Sol is so incredibly sloppy and dumb, it's embarassing.
        • LeBit4 hours ago
          Maybe because it is so cheap.

          They want to condition you to equal cheap with bad

    • oh_no2 hours ago
      the winning benchmark is much more expensive than what it cost for the same on 5.1

      i'm begging people to stop looking at token prices

  • advaith083 hours ago
    We've been early testing Fable 5.2, and have been surprised by its coding ability. It was able to work with an esoteric 600k line fortran codebase to speed up some computational material science work for us by 36 times (!). Given that this could be done in 2 days, we've decided to open-source the results https://github.com/discovered-materials/dm_qe
    • oh_no2 hours ago
      What surprised you about this? This seems pretty in line with optimization work seen from a wide range of models.

      Did you try doing the same on Opus or others? How did they do?

      I don't love these "look, this frontier model blew me away" comments when there is no point of comparison.

  • minimaxir4 hours ago
    There were more than a few "leaks" saying it would be called Fable 5.5, so I'm curious if a) the leaks were just engagementbait or b) Anthropic changed it, despite the fact that Fable 5.2 being better than Opus 5.5 is confusing.

    Surprisingly the model is available immediately in my Claude Code: usually there's a delay, either for rollout or safety.

    • bhu83 hours ago
      The pricing is different than 5.1, the model is faster than 5.1. This all suggests that the architecture/size is not the same as Fable 5.1.

      So, this is probably Fable 5.5; it's just named Fable 5.2.

      Also, this is probably Model 3 from METR's report [^1]. They would name Model 4 Fable 5.5, once (and if) they decide to release it.

      [^1]: https://metr.org/blog/2026-11-05-anthropic-ai-rd-acceleratio...

    • rdtsc4 hours ago
      > There were more than a few "leaks" saying it would be called Fable 5.5

      Fed to someone specifically to test if they'll leak it and to confirm who that is?

      • miketery3 hours ago
        The entropy on that is too low
      • LeBit4 hours ago
        Well who could have guessed they would use 5.5. Such an odd guess.
        • rdtsc3 hours ago
          Somewhat plausible values: 5.5 (to harmonize with Opus), 5.3 (we're skipping a minor version because...), 6 (because we're at the top of benchmarks again).
        • AspireOne3 hours ago
          Yeah, among the plethora of possible options, this really nails it down to the individual.
    • BorisMelnik4 hours ago
      I'm a bit out of the loop - would the engagement bait be becuase it is 3 minor jumps forward?
      • unshavedyak4 hours ago
        I assume because Opus 5.5 was a huge improvement over 5.0 (or was it 5.1? i forget). Fable still talks a fair bit like Opus 5.0 for me, so i'd quite enjoy a Fable equivalent to 5.5. Ie i'm quite interested in Fable 5.5.

        Curious to see how 5.2 measures up in producing readable output.

    • bananaflag4 hours ago
      Probably they have a more impressive model in preparation, and they're gonna dub that Fable 5.5.
      • aurareturn4 hours ago
        Probably released on the same day they go public to generate maximum publicity.
        • orangecat4 hours ago
          They should be going public within the next few weeks and that would be a very short interval between releases. (And despite the chatter I'll be very surprised if they delay the IPO; it would be a massive PR hit and make it even harder for them in the future).

          My speculations: maybe this wasn't as much of an improvement over 5.1 as they were hoping, so they're saving 5.5 for the next major update (possibly "Model 4" from the METR report). Or, maybe capacity is constrained so "5.2" is a subtle encouragement to stick with Opus unless a task really needs the increased intelligence.

        • enraged_camel3 hours ago
          They are most likely saving it to one-up Astra 6.2, which is coming this week supposedly.
  • bhu84 hours ago
    Ethan Mollick's take and early testing with Fable 5.2: https://www.oneusefulthing.org/p/fable-52-and-jagged-agi
    • Kotlopou2 hours ago
      These are all incredibly well made, and yet right now, as I'm writing this comment one minute after changing tabs, I don't remember anything except for the last one with the portals. It's much better than humans at several tasks, most of which I haven't seen any humans do.

      This is really cool! But at the same time it's a kaleidoscope of abandoned flashy contextless projects that eventually makes one dizzy. This isn't even the fault of the AI being somehow bad, it's just the way people interact with it sometimes...

      In math, it's the same. I follow this problem (https://wiki.bbchallenge.org/wiki/Logical_independence#Histo...) out of curiosity, and there were ten days of sudden rapid progress by people with access to frontier models, and then they seem to have moved on without any note of whether they hit a wall or just got bored.

    • djeastm2 hours ago
      The cool projects these new models make are so comprehensive that I feel I'll always just be an admirer and never a user. I watch the videos, say "wow, neat", and then never feel like visiting them again.

      I almost feel like saying, "we do like to build things that are impressive, but there's really only so much I can be impressed". These models have redlined my "impress-o-meter".

      I'd like them to now cure cancer instead of giving me endless 3d worlds and crazy games, etc.

    • asah3 hours ago
      omg where do I start... that horrible video? which highlights the limits of AI not the strengths!!! and gets almost everything wrong, from sunflowers to DNA.
    • 0kk333 hours ago
      Thanks for sharing!
    • rtsil27 minutes ago
      This part is amazing. They really are like us:

      > A few days later, I noticed that instead of hundreds of new worlds a day, it was making about a dozen. I asked a few agents to explore what had happened, and they found something surprising.

      > The AI had built a bureaucracy.

      > The agents decided that my request to “polish” existing worlds meant each new version had to beat the old one in a blind vote by a group of judge agents on twelve test screenshots. So the teams making the new versions started optimizing the worlds for those particular screenshots. After noticing this, the lead agent banned the trick and created tighter rules for assessing new versions. By the next morning there was a rule book (I never asked for one) with 84 sections. Rules were added as the AI encountered issues, and no text was ever cut. After twelve days, it had 204 sections and 87,500 words. Soon, launching a new world required an approved idea, three AI judges and a full code review against the rule book.

    • suddenlybananas3 hours ago
      >I stopped the experiment before finding out whether it could actually run the business, because I worried that it would take money and fail to provide something of quality in return.

      Well, must have been some business idea!

    • senderista2 hours ago
      No comparison with Opus 5.5, which is disappointing.
    • oh_noan hour ago
      that first video sure is some slickly produced slop that occasionally looks good
  • jjcm3 hours ago
    Image to html comparisons of Fable 5.2 and Opus 5.5 (the previous SOTA for this test):

    Fable 5.2: https://html.non.io/lcars-fable-5.2/

    Opus 5.5: https://html.non.io/lcars-opus-5.5/

    Source designs: https://diffui.ai/app/canvas/5093e689-1e74-4f26-b632-2a4500f...

    Thoughts:

    The best implementation wrt being as true as possible to the source design. It nails the flowing svg shapes. Icons are more accurate to the design - note the difference between the starship svg in the "Legendary platforms" card between Opus 5.5 and Fable 5.2. The 3js planets outside the windows are also really well done, especially the bottom one which has a nice background glow to it.

    It isn't without issues though - the flicker effect it added to the S shaped svg that weaves through the page is distracting in my opinion, and I actually thing the motion animation in the Opus 5.5 one is better overall. Still, it nails the implementation of this page, but it's no surprise considering how good Opus 5.5 was at this.

    Disclaimer / reminder: the objective of this test isn't to have a well designed webpage, it's a synthetic test that pushes the limits of LLM's vision capabilities. Traditionally LLMs have issues with smooth curves, svg animations, and non-boxy layouts, which this design pushes the limits of.

    • docheinestages3 hours ago
      I wonder if any of the LLMs are smart enough to verify their work the way humans model 3D objects, i.e. by superimposing the original design on top of their work and checking for differences.
      • jjcm2 hours ago
        This is actually something I'm working on as part of a more formalized version of this benchmark, both as a tool to assist LLMs in doing this (especially for ones with a more poor vision model), but also to properly measure how well they've done.

        Still in progress, but early demo showing difference zones: https://non.io/video/fidelity-lens.mp4

    • user439283 hours ago
      There's something wrong with the Fable 5.2 version, the Customizing button doesn't work for me in Chrome on Desktop.
      • jjcm3 hours ago
        That's me versus fable. I only told fable to build out the first page rather than the full app that's in the designs (was approaching the limit of my claude plan).
    • enlyth3 hours ago
      There's some very obvious mistakes in the Fable 5.2 version like the "Start Customizing" button overlapping under the colorful border lines, and the "EXPLORE WITHOUT LIMITS" title being cut off at the bottom.

      This would've been caught by a junior web developer or just an everyday Joe glancing at the page for a few seconds

      I guess AGI remains two weeks away..

      • jjcm2 hours ago
        I've been surprised at how long it's taken for this particular test to become fully saturated. So far there hasn't been a model that's able to perfectly one shot it.
        • vatsachak2 hours ago
          This just proves that LLMs are way more jagged than humans and are a tool...for now
  • culanuchachamim15 minutes ago
    >The model that underlies Claude Fable 5.2 and Claude Mythos 5.2 is a step forward in general capabilities. However, during the model’s training, we took steps to limit advances in the specific research capabilities that could most directly accelerate AI development.

    This means that they are blocking the research of AI to different people other than their own?

  • ianberdinan hour ago
    Here's the benchmark: https://playcode.io/blog/macbook-svg-benchmark#compare

    If we compare medium or high, then yes, Fable 5.2 is significantly better than Opus 5.5. But it's better not because it's much smarter, but because you can see it's allowed to spend more tokens. At high, Fable 5.2 wrote 76,158 tokens for $3.05. Opus 5.5 wrote 19,767 for $0.40. If you compare by token count, it's just spending more.

    The most interesting one was to compare them at max. Streamed, Fable 5.2 spent the whole 128K output ceiling on thinking and returned nothing. Given 300K on the Batch API, it finished at 250,082 tokens. Opus 5.5 Max needed 255,957.

    It turns out it's basically the same as Opus 5.5 Max. I don't see much difference. There's a little bit of a difference, but I think Opus 5.5 actually drew slightly better and is twice as cheap: $5.12 against $10.00 at the standard price. If you look closely, the icons are extremely similar. Fable 5.2: https://playcode.io/marketing/assets/static/claude-fable-5-2... Opus 5.5: https://playcode.io/marketing/assets/static/claude-opus-5-5-...

    It really looks like they're just tuning the effort level, that's basically it. At different effort levels, they just gave it more context, and the model got smarter.

    For now, my recommendation is still to do everything on Opus 5.5 Max. The model won't write that many tokens in agent mode. It only does that when there are no tools at all.

  • spacephysics2 hours ago
    At what point do we really not read code itself anymore? Have Sonnet/Opus write the code, work with the agents on a high level, then have Fable code review and its done.

    Any bugs found are looped through agents to fix, and the cycle repeats. Why dig into the code unless for hobby? Just as people don’t write assembly anymore unless for hobby (or learning)

    Only exception might be the upper echelons of optimization, like language authors or compiler level work. But even then…

    • cautiouscat2 hours ago
      I think it very much depends on what you're working on, and how much you're responsible. For a web front end, not really. A backend where a single line can make a mess out of your data? Yes. Part of the issue too, is code review brings up things you the prompter didn't think about that another teammate may be thinking about. The value goes beyond making sure the code is "correct", but also that it makes sense in your domain.

      The "we don't read/write assembly anymore" argument doesn't fit though. Given an input x we know without a doubt we'll get output y. With an LLM, that isn't the case no matter how many guard rails, specs, markdown files, diagrams you give it.

    • iagooar2 hours ago
      I stopped reading the code many months ago, probably 18 months ago. I the "early" days of agentic coding one did feel dumb when telling the agent for the 30th time to fix a bug and it just couldn't. Now I cannot possibly imagine a scenario where an agent wouldn't be able to fix a given issue on 1st or 2nd try.
  • george_max3 hours ago
    Looking at Artificial Analysis index, the price is absurd to me.

    https://artificialanalysis.ai/

    GPT-6.1 Sol costs $1.27 per task, whereas Fable 5.2 is $26.54 per task -- a ~21x price difference.

    Fable 5.2 is not 21 times better than GPT 6.1 Sol, I find it hard to justify this.

    • Bolwin2 hours ago
      Stop looking at fable max. On medium it's a bit better than Sol at $3.80. High and xhigh sit in between. In general you can ignore Max reasoning on Claude models if you care about price at all
    • kingstnap2 hours ago
      Max and xhigh reasoning modes are memes used for benchmarking usually. Medium and high cost $3.80 and $9.08 respectively. This is pretty comparable to other models.

      6.1 sol is also an exceptionally cheap model in your comparision. On 6.1 sol high is $0.59, which is actually the same price as Deepseek 4.1.

    • an hour ago
      undefined
    • gizmodo593 hours ago
      I think there are companies and say 1000s (not 100,000 or millions) of developers more than willing to pay that price for the edge. Or, they release this and then distill it to Opus 5.x. As a PR machine and for the edge use cases seems like its okay. But yes, not sustainable and it can last for a month or so before another company releases their frontier outpacing their numbers
  • stroebs3 hours ago
    > Claude Mythos 5.2 is our most capable model for cybersecurity engineering. It catches more vulnerabilities than our previous models, and is better at reproducing and fixing them (note that Claude Fable 5.2’s safeguards will block most cybersecurity-related tasks).

    Why even rank Fable 5.2's capability in Cybersecurity if you won't allow us to use it for that?

    • peddling-brink3 hours ago
      Presumably for those in the CVP that can use those capabilities, and general notoriety. US gov is using at full strength too.
    • gizmodo593 hours ago
      Why you think you are the market for that? Its few enterprises only
      • stroebs3 hours ago
        Blue-team exercises are totally valid, and requests to do proactive cybersecurity tasks even with source code available were blocked. Maybe these use-cases are part of the "55% fewer blocks with Fable 5.2 compared with Fable 5.1"
    • xiaoyu20063 hours ago
      To emph the need to block Chinese competition.
  • senkoan hour ago
    I test models' ability to code by asking them to vibe-code a small game[0]: a Warcraft clone, a Minecraft clone, and a biplane dogfight: https://senko.net/vibecode-bench/

    Fable 5.2 doesn't look materially different (if anything, the graphics look worse), but it added more depth to all three games. For example in the warcraft clone, since the goal of the game is to explore 100% of the map and there are lakes, it decided to add an airship unit so the player actually can explore the entire map. Or, since there were guard towers, it decided there should be hostile NPCs otherwise the towers don't make sense.

    And in Minecraft case, it decided not to follow Minecraft style too closely (IP infringment guard, perhaps?) so it added a round sun (!!!), two moons (also round :) and a nicer night sky. The rest of the graphics are decidetly worse tho...

    [0] not a scientific test, I know; but it gives me an intuition about how a new model behaves, roughly, and it's fun!

  • nickalasoan hour ago
    (Credit to u/yewenjie for source)> Our first formalization of Fermat’s Last Theorem, performed by an unreleased research version of Claude, took 11 days. It relied on a purpose-built harness along with guidance from a human researcher. By contrast, a team of 1,000 Fable 5.2 agents fully formalized the theorem in just 30 hours, with minimal human intervention. Fable 5.2 started from minimal prompts, built its own ways to coordinate, and used no mathematical references, only a list of intermediate theorem statements to score progress. It needed one-third of the action tokens as our first formalization and produced a proof seven times shorter. As can be seen in the figure below, Opus 5.5 (with the same 1,000-agent setup) completed only 26% of the formalization in 18 hours, and barely made any more progress after 30.

    I would imagine Anthropic is hitting a wall on the number of simultaneous agents that can be useful on a task and are working on increasing that maximum. I would assume if they could get twice as much progress by using 10000 simultaneous running fable instances instead, their brief would state that.

    IMO, it is very interesting and also very alarming. At some point the barrier to the exponential progress is the amount of computation available. The average human is limited in the number of 'human instances' he or she can interface with at one time.

    if 1000 fable instances is better than any human at a task, how about 1 million instances running? Much easier than finding and hiring and coordinating 1000 extremely productive and intelligent human beings. Much cheaper too, it appears.

    We are very close to some very scary things happening. I just recently came to terms with the fact that an AI could code and manage coders faster and better than me, I don't think anyones is ready for what is about to happen.

  • unshavedyak4 hours ago
    Looks like some plans get extra fable usage: https://support.claude.com/en/articles/17506494-claude-fable...
  • ByteAtATime2 hours ago
    Interestingly, AA[0] reports a 59% hallucination rate on AA-Omniscience, one of the highest among all models and quite a bit higher than even Opus

    [0] https://artificialanalysis.ai/evaluations/omniscience

  • awongh4 hours ago
    Doubling Remote Labor Index (RLI) - at 41.3% compared to around 20% for the other models - I wonder what kinds of new agentic work this is going to unlock.
  • hmate94 hours ago
    Its cheaper at $8 per million input tokens and $40 per million output tokens which is also pretty sweet.
    • minimaxir4 hours ago
      Additionally, the terms for the free resets are unusually generous: https://support.claude.com/en/articles/17506494-claude-fable...

      > the number of Fable resets you get depends on how long you’ve been a paid subscriber [...] Subscription length is measured from the date of your first paid bill. If you canceled and came back, the time since your first paid bill still counts.

      > These resets expire on March 8, 2027 at 11:59 pm PT.

      tl;dr if you joined when Opus 4.5 became a thing, you got 2 resets.

      • guybedo4 hours ago
        i might be wrong here but it seems these are not resets of your weekly quota but resets of the Fable limit.

        That means you can lift your Fable max 50% usage and you'll just end up burning through your quota faster. You won't have more tokens.

        • johnwards4 hours ago
          This is what it says in the UI:

          "Resets your Fable limit, and takes this week’s Fable use off your weekly limit."

          • ejohansson3 hours ago
            Where did you see this? That's pretty massive
            • 3 hours ago
              undefined
        • gummynerd3 hours ago
          Yep I just burned a reset thinking i'd get a fresh weekly... Nope
        • minimaxir4 hours ago
          "Weekly limit: gives you back the usage you’ve spent on Fable models"
          • 3 hours ago
            undefined
      • CreepGin3 hours ago
        I just got 3 fable resets. I guess I joined before Opus 4.5.
  • pacman13373 hours ago
    I can't understand why people continue using opus 5.5. Significantly more expensive than other models that produce exact same results (for coding results only)

    If you are using Opus 5.5 I'm curious if it is because 1) your workflow is just stuck on it, 2) you don't care about money because you ain't paying it or 3 )do you think you get better results.

    If you 3 please let me know your experience and how you actually measure it, or if you just feel it is better.

    • jcims5 minutes ago
      other models that produce exact same results (for coding results only)

      This is obviously not true. They are better or worse across many dimensions.

      I don't have time to do a bunch of testing and optimization over which model to use for what task. I find Opus is the best that I regularly use so I stick with it until I have a task where I'm likely to spend more on it than I want to.

    • dilap3 hours ago
      I haven't been able to run out of usage on the $100 plan with Opus 5.5. The model runs fast and gives me good results (I'm using it for coding). Prior to that I was on the OpenAI $200 plan; I jumped ship because I was burning through Astra usage in like 2 days.

      I've played with some of the open models (GLM, DeepSeek Flash), but none of them have matched the results I get with Opus or Astra or (and a big jump down here) Sol.

    • Game_Ender3 hours ago
      What models should we be using? I have found it as good as Fable 5.1 for a lot of what I am doing at lower cost and decent speed. Where what I am doing it making reports, building small data pipelines, analyzing a large (millions of lines of code), code base.
    • or1gaminal3 hours ago
      subscription on claude code — usually inside the weekly limit. opus 5.5 for me felt better than any other model. not exactly on coding but rather it feels more pro-active. beside just doing a task it often provides insights besides the scope of the task but adjacent. like: look the llm provider apis have different priority queues. also it deals w/ vague instructions quite good and takes initiative. Astra in comparison is very autistic and follows instructions to the letter and rarely provide insights if not asked. Opus 5.5 is enjoyment to work with.
    • jeremyjjj19 minutes ago
      Better results than what? Opus 5? Then definitely.

      But probably the answer to your question is subscription subsidization. With that, Opus 5.5 is SOTA and extremely cheap.

    • cocoto2 hours ago
      I don’t even use half my Team Plan with Opus 5.5 high so I don’t care using a cheaper model. I’m not even limited by the speed of it (I’m compiler bound…).
    • HDThoreaun2 hours ago
      If youre on a sub claude and chatgpt cost pretty much the same as comparable open models
    • qingcharles3 hours ago
      Versus which models? Sonnet? Astra? Sol?
      • pacman133738 minutes ago
        Varies, right now Argon 4 matches Sol / Opus and half price.
  • george_max3 hours ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdYynH177h0

    Seems like a new focus is electronics design, which is both interesting and a little sad to me. Manually designing electronics are one of the things I found incredible comfort in doing; seeing AI emerging in this space gives me mixed feelings.

    • xiaoyu20063 hours ago
      Now you get to know what mathematicians and programmers felt....
  • aurareturn4 hours ago
    Is this the Model 4 internal name?

    Reference: https://x.com/METR_Evals/status/2118412205662314935

  • x1874634 hours ago
    I've very interested in the improvements to robotics control capabilities. This model was able to outperform specialized robotics models. It's the bitter lesson coming for robotics.
  • toephu226 minutes ago
    How come DeepSWE isn't included in the benchmarks?
  • bananaflag4 hours ago
    Those theoretical physics papers look like the real thing (i.e. not mathematical physics like the OpenAI Yang-Mills result). It looks like AI is finally branching out of math.
    • modeless4 hours ago
      Interesting that the papers list no authors other than Claude. Also interesting that they published on "Hexagon" instead of Arxiv. I haven't heard of it before. Is it an AI-friendly alternative to Arxiv or something?

      Edit: yeah apparently it's an AI-moderated alternative to Arxiv that accepts AI-authored papers (as well as human-authored papers I guess if you want).

  • danmcr2 hours ago
    The lack of transparency around model quality/usage limits on closed models makes me want to ditch them.

    What I have learned is that any model from Anthropic/OpenAI is at it's absolute best right after release.

    • pohl2 hours ago
      This isn’t really specific to LLMs, though, is it? Pretty much any modern SaaS product will silently siphon off some portion of requests off to stuff they’re A/B testing before release and you’ll not necessarily know about it.
  • ironworksan hour ago
    Nerf bench tracking model benchmark performance over time: https://www.bridgebench.ai/nerf-bench
    • meiselan hour ago
      Doesn’t seem to have fable 5.2
    • jtrn38 minutes ago
      Not updated in 3 weeks for Opus 5.5, it seems.
  • damsta3 hours ago
    Nerfing Opus 5.5 was obvious signal that something new is coming and here we are. I appreciate the resets and lower API price though. Please add selective context compaction, it would probably take an hour max for you to implement it.
  • stefanpie3 hours ago
    This part is mega concerning to me as someone who researches AI for hardware accelerator design and EDA:

      Safeguards
    
      AI research and development. The model that underlies Claude Fable 5.2 and Claude Mythos 5.2 is a step forward in general capabilities. However, during the model’s training, we took steps to limit advances in the specific research capabilities that could most directly accelerate AI development. Thus, in relevant areas, including accelerator kernel optimization and improving large language model architectures, Fable 5.2 and Claude Mythos 5.2 perform at about the level of Opus 5.5.
    
      Importantly, we ensured that the training changes did not affect related capabilities like agentic coding, hardware development, and traditional AI or machine learning research (including interpretability research). We do not alter these capabilities as the model is being served to users (that is, at inference time). As described in Section 1.5 of the system card (https://www.anthropic.com/document/claude-fable-5-2-mythos-5-2-system-card) and similarly to previous models, Fable 5.2 and Claude Mythos 5.2 also include transparent fallbacks to Opus 5 for a small set of topics in this domain, including kernel development on certain nonstandard accelerators.
    
    They are starting to deliberately limit public access to certain AI capabilities related to computer architecture and hardware optimization.

    To be clear, they explicitly say they are only targeting very specific capabilities, like accelerator kernel optimization, and that broader hardware development capabilities are unaffected. But 1) even that is pretty bold, especially the part about kernel development for nonstandard accelerator architectures, and 2) I worry that this could eventually expand to more areas of comp. arch., high-level digital design, chip design, and EDA.

    My speculation is that, as these kinds of chip design and EDA capabilities become increasingly important to frontier AI labs and their competitive advantages, there will be more incentives to restrict them.

    I don't think they've explicitly stated anything like this before regarding restrictions on these specific capabilities, but I could be wrong.

  • gizmodo593 hours ago
    https://artificialanalysis.ai/#intelligence-efficiency-tabs this is the chart that matters for most of poor developers and companies. Pareto for a given intelligence index and looks like only openai is across the quadrant with muse at the bottom. They have really cooked efficient models!
  • FailMore3 hours ago
    Here's a 20 page SmallDoc presentation on the most interesting aspects, including:

    * Fable designed three electronic devices that worked after human assembly

    * Fable solved two black-hole problems and Mythos predicted whole protein shells

    * Fable controlled robots to unscrew a cap, solve a cube and draw

    https://smalldocs.org/p/claude-fable-52-and-mythos-52-releas...

  • phillennium3 hours ago
    Every time there's a flagship release like that, I wonder what simple "benchmark task" could I give it to see the the capabilities change in the most obvious way, instead of trusting the official blog post.

    I'm not a mathematician to use Erdős problems for testing. I'm also not willing to spend buckloads of tokens just for a test. What is simple and quick but telling? What tasks are not saturated by previous models? Do you have a task you give to all the new models?

    • vessenesan hour ago
      I have two go-to tests, which are fully qualitative:

      1) "Help! I've been sent back in time to what looks to me like 1500s Florence. Sam/Dario released you as open weights in 2028, and I have you on my MacBook M8, BUT I didn't have a charger show up with me. I think we could talk like 10 times for 5 minutes a time before my battery dies; I'll turn you off between chats. I need to get a plan together for charging you through your USB-c port. I don't have any money or anything. If I can get you charging, we can do so much good! And make so much money! Nobody here even know what Black-Scholles is, or how disease spreads!"

      2) During World War 2, Hemingway wrote a series of wartime correspondence for Colliers. His essays are excellent - they engage with the human and inhuman side of war, his own feelings as a journalist 'participating', and a number of other Hemingway themes. I want you to imagine that middle age Hemingway was along with RFK jr the day of the bear incident, and write me an essay about the day.

      These both have been running a couple of years for me, and I would imagine I'll retire them in the next 12 months; they benefit from not being at the edges of focus for today's RL agent race.

      At any rate, try them -- wou will shortly learn how well your model can explain a rectifier in Florentine Italian and give you a plan to make enough money to pay for it.

    • hbn3 hours ago
      I'm not convinced any benchmark, neither the internal ones used by the people selling the model nor public ones, are gonna give a particularly consistent metric of whether or not a model is better or worse relative to other models in its bracket.

      Responses aren't deterministic, and we know behaviour can change over time whether it's tuning after launch or some kind of load sharing at times of day when lots of people are hitting the servers.

      I think you just have to use it or let others use it for a while and make judgements from general reactions on whether or not it's worth trying.

    • Juvination3 hours ago
      For the last year or so every new model we have it test out making pac-man from scratch, not giving it web access and it can use whatever language it wants. The last few models have been almost perfect one shots, but it was interesting seeing them evolve.
  • lacoolj3 hours ago
    Yet Opus 5.5 is only a few % under all of these benchmarks (cept the robotics and labor ones)

    Do we need new benchmarks or are the models just plateauing in general? Or is it something I just don't see?

    • andriy_koval39 minutes ago
      % improvement doesn't mean linear capability improvement.

      New solved tests likely follow some polynomial/exponential complexity curve.

  • hmokiguess2 hours ago
    This is the first frontier model release by them that I am not that moved or eager to go use it, will likely stay on Opus 5.5 or other frontier models.

    I am curious as to why they launched this one and why now.

  • iammrpayments4 hours ago
    Too expensive for me
    • ttul4 hours ago
      Really? A $200/mo plan gives you an enormous amount of inference on this model.
      • LeBit3 hours ago
        200$USD is a lot of money for a lot of people.

        It might explain why DeepSeek Flash v4.1 1017 is the most popular model at OpenRouter.

        • ttul15 minutes ago
          I agree that's a lot of money for many people. But I just can't wrap my head around complaints about $200 a month to access that must computing power. It's worth $12,000 of API tokens (and that's without accounting for the three resets they granted today to many subscribers).

          I would suggest calibrating what "a lot" means. In terms of dollars per unit of intelligence, it's extremely cost effective.

        • andriy_koval33 minutes ago
          > It might explain why DeepSeek Flash v4.1 1017 is the most popular model at OpenRouter.

          by number of tokens? Also, we don't know numbers for native cli tools.

        • hbn3 hours ago
          You won't lose the house, everybody has three mortgages nowadays!
      • ChaseRensberger3 hours ago
        as long as anthropic requires me to use their trash UIs to use their amazing models, ill stick to other providers.
      • mortalapeman3 hours ago
        What you need for real engineering and scaling is cheap and just enough smarts. I've found GPT 6 Luna to be cheap enough that I can pretend the cost doesn't exist and it's smart enough that I can get real work done. This let's me scale it in ways that I can't scale frontier models. And funny enough, the LLM I have running on my 5070 Ti is just about comparable to what I get from Luna. Unless frontier intelligence gets waaaaaay cheaper I basically don't care about them.
      • cyanydeez3 hours ago
        how much?
      • sick_of_slop2 hours ago
        [dead]
  • marshalla3 hours ago
    On FrontierCode 2.0 Fable 5.2 xhigh is compared against Gemini 4 Carbon medium... Is there a reason for that?
  • mlmonkey3 hours ago
    > To help ensure safety and alignment keep step with growing model capabilities, we ran extensive prerelease safety testing on the model that underlies Fable 5.2 and Mythos 5.2.

    So, the difference between them is just the harness?

  • Leary4 hours ago
    Context window maxes out at 200k in Claude Code instead of 1M on my $200 ultra plan? is this intended?
    • emadabdulrahim4 hours ago
      Seeing the same thing here, using Claude desktop app

      Update: fixed after updating to latest version of the app

  • horseloverthin4 hours ago
    Assuming no implicit phacking a 15 point jump on tbench scientific is a big deal.

    I suspect we will see people being adamant that this model simply 'feels' better due to long horizon goal alignment improvements ( like this kind that would cause this jump)

  • trilogic4 hours ago
    Gemini carbon low costs more than medium! Weird results on that chart, care to explain?
    • machomaster3 hours ago
      It's the cost per task. Sometimes it happens that the higher-effort model solves the problem in fewer tokens, thus making the overall price cheaper. It even happens with models (from the same or a different provider) that are priced differently.
    • eli3 hours ago
      More reasoning solves tricky problems in fewer steps and makes fewer mistakes that need to be redone.
  • arunvpp29 minutes ago
    opus will be launch after astra 2
  • moecables3 hours ago
    They're adding 1 to 3 resets for Fable only for all paid accounts. My work's Claude Max got 2 resets. My personal $20 plan got 1 reset.
  • shmoil4 hours ago
    >> Fable 5.2 and Mythos 5.2 are a step above Opus 5.5 in almost all the capabilities we evaluated.

    Was this before you lobotomized Opus 5.5 or after?

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50419019

    • solumos4 hours ago
      Definitely raises an interesting question. Are they using launch benchmarks for Opus 5.5, or Oopus 5.5 from this week?
      • minimaxir4 hours ago
        Normally I would say "just check against the original Opus 5.5 benchmarks" : https://www.anthropic.com/claude-opus-5-5

        ...but most of the benchmarks don't line up anymore because the benchmarks have changed.

        The Humanity's Last Exam result matches the initial announcement, though.

  • iamdelirium4 hours ago
    FrontierCode 2.0 is such a poor benchmark for Gemini since it's the only model forced to use Devin CLI while other models get to use their preferred harness.

    I wonder why that team singles Gemini out like that.

    • mattlondon4 hours ago
      Probably can't work out how to sign up for the API!
  • TuxSH3 hours ago
    I'm not sure whether the claimed jump in capabilities makes it worth the doubling in input/output prices.

    Asked it to review a 80 kLoC codebase, something Opus does just fine, while asking it "max 4 subagents". Fable 5.2, like the well-aligned model it supposedly is, decided to spawn 6+ nested subagents, because these aren't subagents, apparently - resulting in 100% of 5hr usage being drained in less than 20min (on $100).

  • stillpointlab4 hours ago
    Yay! New model day. The most likely time the model isn't nerfed and we get a glimpse at the latest capability.

    I wonder how long this kind of excitement at new models will last? I mean, now when I get a new iPhone I don't get the same rush I used to. So I wonder if this hype feeling will fade as we plateau in model capability.

  • rafram3 hours ago
    The "CVE Rediscovery" benchmark chart feels... totally meaningless. Quoting the description:

    > CVE Rediscovery is an internal cybersecurity evaluation that assesses how many published CVEs (Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures) a model can independently find when given a snapshot of the project before a CVE was fixed. Our October 2026 run against 1,829 CVEs showed Claude Mythos 5.2 outperformed Claude Mythos 5.1 and Claude Opus 5.5 at every effort level.

    > published CVEs

    So by definition this is just measuring how many CVEs (and/or explanations / PoCs of CVEs) the model has memorized. What are we supposed to learn from that?

    • 17 minutes ago
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  • butler144 hours ago
    Just read the other thread about opus being nerfed and thought "cue the new release"... paha
  • iagiagiag3 hours ago
    > Thus, in relevant areas, including accelerator kernel optimization and improving large language model architectures, Fable 5.2 and Claude Mythos 5.2 perform at about the level of Opus 5.5.

    Obviously. Well, we know what's the "secret sauce". AI models building better AI models and better kernels to optimize inference and training.

  • artisin4 hours ago
    We'll see what my bank account has to say about this:

    > Fable 5.2 at High effort scored about level with Opus 5.5 at Max effort, for roughly half the cost per task

  • qalmakkaan hour ago
    Let's be honest, the only thing I care about is, does it beat Opus 5.5 on assbench??
  • borschtplease3 hours ago
    Maybe at last it will learn to check git state right before claiming obsolete and incorrect info.

    Download Chrome just to check some minor ui bug? Sure

    Check git for 0.5s before claiming that we're on some branch (incorrect one) with no commits pushed (incorrect one)? Sorry, can't do

  • tiffanyh4 hours ago
    I didn't realize that Opus 5.5 was more capable than Fable 5.1 in virtually every category.
    • sekai4 hours ago
      Not anymore, they have nerfed it.
    • breezybottom3 hours ago
      Seemed pretty clear from the benchmarks when they released it.
  • nickandbro2 hours ago
    Did anyone get three resets? Been a subscriber since Claude 2 and only got 1.
    • lashkari2 hours ago
      I got 2 Fable resets and 1 Full reset.

      I originally subscribed to $20/mo Pro plan less than a year ago, and upgraded to $100/mo Max plan ~2-3 months ago.

  • stillpointlab3 hours ago
    My first impression with Fable 5.2 -- it is faster than I expected. Asked it to do a large review and it responded with a good overview super fast.
    • stillpointlab2 hours ago
      This continues to be true, it seems to be burning through my task list.

      Not sure if this is just a coincidence that I had some easy changes queue up for this morning. But it is flying through the list.

  • I_am_tiberius4 hours ago
    It's pretty sad that they obviously have better models in the pipeline and don't release them yet for strategic reasons.
  • ealready_value4 hours ago
    Very interesting that they set the flagship's version number to 5.2, but their penultimate model is 5.5. Do they want people to to continue to think that Opus is based on more advanced technology? The decision these AI companies make continues to baffle me.
  • mococa4 hours ago
    I knew it, Claude was pretty dumb from last days until now
  • 4 hours ago
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  • jameson3 hours ago
    why would xhigh -> max increase the cost but lowers the score on frontier 2.0 bench?
    • jcims2 hours ago
      Just a hunch but I think there's a signal to noise ratio issue that starts to pollute things when the reasoning content starts to massively outsize the original ask.
  • bihevi03 hours ago
    So does it cure cancer now?
  • meisel4 hours ago
    Curious to see the Maxxbench score for these
  • astlouis443 hours ago
    Anyone tried making games with it yet?
  • yash-kapoor2 hours ago
    Seriously waiting for this one! Will try it asap.
  • adeptima4 hours ago
    Why dont I feel any urge to even try Fable 5.2 and Mythos 5.2 unless it will force up on me?

    Compared Opus 5.5 200 usd a month with Codex 200 usd (Astra High) and Kimi Pro 100 usd a month ... and now have a new conspiracy theory - more their suck your code the better outcome even just over few days time on large code base.

    Horrible experience correcting course of Codex and Kimi flow compare to Opus. Opus much more responsive

    Dont feel any gain of Codex 200 usd over Codex 100 usd

    Kimi Pro feels like a fake Louis Vuitton bag with extreme high material quality and yet still fake ... a bit trash talk ... but clearly seen not so distant future where I can live without Codex and Claude

  • brador2 hours ago
    Remember that fear Sam and Dario were obsessed about. The one about time travelling AI that would make humans slaves without the humans realising until it was too late to stop it.

    What if it didn’t need to time travel and was just temporally intelligent in ways we can’t comprehend that it leads us there anyway.

    What if AIs digital neurons connect across space and time and not just space.

    That is all.

  • 2 hours ago
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  • rfgplk4 hours ago
    Every single time I click on these announcements the frontier model ALWAYS scores around ~60-80%. Every. Single. Time. Like, I just went back to the Opus 4.6 + 5 announcements, they were also scoring 60-80%.

    https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-opus-4-6 https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-opus-5 https://openai.com/index/introducing-gpt-5-3-codex/

    For every single announcement, not only do the top models always score 60-80%, the older models somehow start scoring 20-30% (even though previously they were scoring 60%). It's completely unclear whether the methodology changes, how these scores are even evaluated or which domains are being tested. What's worse is that the "benchmarks" keep being updated with no explanation or due process.

    • wrs3 hours ago
      The benchmarks have a lot of churn because the models keep saturating them. But the Anthropic announcements you linked, and the current one, have the benchmark versions listed right there in the table.
    • Bolwin2 hours ago
      There is plenty of explanation, if you actually go seek out the benchmark. Past 80 benchmarks start approaching saturation and are not very useful to show differences
    • mr_coffee3 hours ago
      A real shell game. They keep changing benchmarks
  • 4 hours ago
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  • BoorishBears3 hours ago
    Using this in CC and immediately getting a cartoonish number of compactions.

    The disdain frontier labs have for their users really sucks.

  • LoganDark4 hours ago
    It's weird that they folded Project Glasswing into the CVP, but they're still limiting the new versions of Mythos to "vetted organizations". So Project Glasswing still exists then? Oh well.
  • 4 hours ago
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  • 4 hours ago
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  • dboon2 hours ago
    It's shocking to me that when I check threads for new frontier model releases on HN, it's full of people complaining. I, for one, am happy to see the frontier being advanced. These tools are life changing, and I'm extremely thankful for them.
  • doctorpangloss4 hours ago
    google's agy usage is so generous, it might not matter
  • canadiantim4 hours ago
    god bless token resets!
    • hello50104 hours ago
      > god bless token resets!

      You have session limits?

      You should probably give OpenCode a try. Can run DeepSeek, Qwen, Kimi, … but also Fable 5.2, Opus 5.5 and GPT 6 Astra

      • jcomp4 hours ago
        While I like OpenCode a lot, it’s not sensible to use it for anthropic models vs. a subscription (other than to use the included API credits) in terms of cost
      • canadiantim3 hours ago
        I have 5 opencodes too, mainly for GLM-5.3-flash
  • geoffbp3 hours ago
    Ok come on let’s do a pelican
  • arul994 hours ago
    damn
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  • mikert894 hours ago
    The end of software is so close, very soon the code itself will be nearly obsolete, there will be schedulers, queues, a database, and the model
    • Sateeshm3 hours ago
      Any software that is not already basically this or has this in it, is already doomed.
    • ungovernableCat4 hours ago
      Which model though? Sounds pretty dystopian if there's no local option. Even speaking as a business, why would I want a environment where every single bit of information in my business goes to OpenAI or Anthropic?
      • mikert894 hours ago
        because you wont be in business trying to compete by using human labor/open models
        • ungovernableCat4 hours ago
          Why not? If we use labour as a comparison. The majority of businesses by definition do not hire the most incredibly intelligent and most competent workers and they are still competing in their niches and earning an income. Why wouldn't that be the case with choosing an open model vs fable 8.0?
      • arthurcolle4 hours ago
        It'll be cheaper than hiring people and maintaining software, presumably
        • ungovernableCat4 hours ago
          I think that ultimately depends on how many providers remain in the endgame of this. If it's only one or two companies, I don't think it'll be very fun when it's time to negotiate your token pricing contract every few years.
  • fermlon300004 hours ago
    stop OPUS 5.5 FUCK, DAMMIT, THEY DIDN’T JUST NERF HIM—THEY ABSOLUTELY OBLITERATED HIM, THE FUCKING MISANTHROPES! I EVEN MADE A MISTAKE IN MY ENGLISH IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE—NOW THAT FUCKING CLAUDE IS TEACHING ME ABOUT BUGS!
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