88 pointsby GloVin5 hours ago33 comments
  • closetheloopdev3 hours ago
    They are looking to lower it further to $100 [0]. This is definitely concerning for frontier labs since Accenture also caps their employees' usage to $29 a month [1].

    [0] https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/apple-cuts-...

    [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/accenture-j...

    • jjav2 hours ago
      > This is definitely concerning for frontier labs

      Yes. The frontier models are good, indeed, but they are just far too expensive to use much. Recently I was showing my executive leader that we could simply run a certain set of tasks on the top frontier model and we'd be good to go. Oh but it would cost over 15M/year. We're a relatively small company, that's over two magnitudes more than what makes sense for us. So, never going to happen.

      What remains then is an optimization exercise to bring the cost down. For months now we've been optimizing usage so we can run nearly all tasks on very cheap models to good success. It's fun to optimize and keeps the CFO from having a heart attack.

      But not good news for the AI companies relying in a firehose of cash coming in from their frontier models.

    • Gigachad3 hours ago
      $100 day should be more than enough. To exceed that you have to coming up with creative ways to waste it. You couldn’t hit that in normal development using AI all day.

      For the edge cases that might need more like running a security audit, it would make more sense to submit that as a project proposal and have the expense approved.

      • shepherdjerred2 hours ago
        Most days I use <$100, but very often will go to $200 with $1000 happening at least once or twice a month.

        It's easy to spend a lot when writing an entire service, large features, or doing research loops.

        • oblio2 hours ago
          Those special cases should be handled with overages and special approvals. Blanket approvals of massive spending doesn't make financial sense.
      • closetheloopdev3 hours ago
        We don't know how low it will get yet. The first article I linked also has this: "[m]any groups outside of engineering already face a $100 daily cap, but Apple has considered reducing that limit to as little as $25 for some teams, the people said."

        They could be tightening the purse strings further until they hit some magical ROI numbers.

      • TimByte39 minutes ago
        > $100 day should be more than enough. To exceed that you have to coming up with creative ways to waste it.

        You do not need much creativity for that. Just forget to put build artifacts or node_modules in your agent's ignore list and it will happily burn through the cap in thirty minutes

    • Copenjin3 hours ago
      Accenture lol, in that case, considering the quality of the output previously released by their humans, maybe local LLMs are already more than enough for that use case.
      • closetheloopdev3 hours ago
        They should consider buying or renting their own GPUs to run one of the cheaper open models instead of paying the labs.

        They also should have a smart model supervise the cheaper and less capable ones.

        • kolinko2 hours ago
          cheaper per token or by effect
    • psyphy23 hours ago
      29/month is offensively low
      • mike_hearn41 minutes ago
        Accenture isn't a giant software company though. For the sort of things their employees do, that might be a reasonable average (think chat, PowerPoint, a bit of research).
      • dash-443 hours ago
        For smaller companies they can get Claude team plan for $20/month/seat and the plans give a lot of usage. We rarely hit limits. Codex plans used to have more usage and those were the go-to. Before that, GitHub Copilot CLI was the service with insane usage limits for $10-$20/month.

        So it's about staying nimble enough so you can easily switch over. Don't tie yourself down to a single product/harness.

        • closetheloopdev3 hours ago
          The Claude Team plan is subsidized, and pricing for them is significantly less than what enterprises pay with API pricing. For example, your $20/month plan would cost the equivalent of $400/month if they charged you using API pricing.

          That's why those plans are only available to small companies with 150 employees or less.

          • 80fj0348i2 hours ago
            $420 on the Enterprise plan, you pay 20 bucks just for the seat.
      • closetheloopdev3 hours ago
        Yes, considering their CEO said that AI usage was a requirement for promotion earlier this year [0]. Companies are backpedaling now when the AI bills come out and bite them.

        [0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/accentures-ceo-says-using-ai-...

  • 80fj0348i4 hours ago
    $5600 per 28-day period is quite a lot!
    • jdlshore3 hours ago
      Could be $4,400–about 22 weekdays in a month. Still a lot.
      • asaddhamani3 hours ago
        $52K per engineer per year extra cost to the company. I think at an Apple scale that level of ROI should be easy. I wonder if they were not seeing the ROI they wanted? As an indie hacker AI has been amazing for me and has freed me up to do so much more.
        • jdlshore3 hours ago
          I’ve been talking to a bunch of companies about how they use LLMs and I’m seeing dramatic differences in costs, with very few concrete measures of value. Mostly just PR counts. We’re talking order-of-magnitude differences in spending, from hundreds up to many thousands. (API pricing, not subscription prices.)

          I’m not surprised companies are pulling back. That’s a decent chunk of money and CFOs are going to want to know what they’re getting for the money. “More PRs” isn't a good enough answer.

          • oblio2 hours ago
            > That’s a decent chunk of money and CFOs are going to want to know what they’re getting for the money.

            Finally! Gravity and sanity are starting to win.

      • gscott3 hours ago
        That is peanuts to Apple. It is possible engineering and programming is getting too much done and Apple doesn't have the means to push it all out live to customers.
        • TimByte32 minutes ago
          [flagged]
        • oblio2 hours ago
          LOL, I appreciate the boundless optimism.

          Or, get this - figuring out what customers really want and need is super hard and churning out code doesn't solve the truly hard problems of software development.

          I don't see any indication that LLMs help with requirements gathering or user studies, especially live ones.

    • kijin3 hours ago
      Yes, it's a significant expense even on top of an Apple salary.

      Any company, not just Apple, should be tracking whether the extra spending is worth it. There must be a point of diminishing returns where additional AI usage stops increasing productivity at a comparable rate. That point should be your target. Different teams can have vastly different thresholds.

      Companies also can't justify ever-increasing costs just because it increases productivity. It's business. You care about profits, not raw productivity. And Apple doesn't seem to be having a particularly great time these days.

    • beibeivn3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • mrdw4 hours ago
    If $200 in API price equivalent it's too low. That's less than Claude Max x5 plan gives. So with $100 plan you'd have more tokens than apple engineer
    • onion2k4 hours ago
      It's only too low if the goal is to use AI as much as possible. If Apple are saying their engineers should not use AI for everything, and that they should still be working as they did but with a small assist from AI, the budget makes a lot of sense.

      Giving people some constraints so they have to actually think about solving their problems properly rather than just throwing money (or tokens) at it is not a bad idea.

    • odo12424 hours ago
      Apple is paying API prices, not subscription prices, though. $6000/month is half the engineer's monthly salary, it seems ridiculous to say that won't be enough, unless you're being very inefficient with token spend.
      • jrockway3 hours ago
        Yeah. I think people are reading $200 as "per month" and not "per day". I do a lot with unrationed Claude tokens and $6k/month is fine. Have I exceeded it? Yes. But it's very rare.

        Things that drive up spend is mostly doing other people's work. Triage, "that doesn't seem quite right, let's see what happens if I prompt it", properly investigating incidents (I get a lot where the reporter's agent didn't read the code and just guesses at how it works, kind of making the report useless). Fixing those things is what would really get token spend down -- a consistent way of making bug reports against other teams that has the same context as the people that work on it everyday. I don't know if it's possible. But I'm anti-rationing because the first thing you do when your tokens are counted is to stop helping other people, right?

      • MattRix4 hours ago
        The fact that it's expensive has nothing to do with how useful it is though... I know plenty of people who max out their $200 plans every week, and they are working on stuff a lot less financially valuable than what Apple employees work on.
        • mono4423 hours ago
          But does the spending on the ai result in more revenue for the company?
        • recursive3 hours ago
          I know people who spend that on lottery tickets. Obviously rational.
          • monster_truck3 hours ago
            I don't think you actually know anyone spending $10,000/yr on lotto tickets.

            But it's telling that you claim to while treating this as some sort of equivalence.

      • muro4 hours ago
        I think engineers in the Bay area are paid more than 12k / month. Maybe it's 1/3 of their salary :)
      • busymom03 hours ago
        Imagine if they let you take home half of whatever money you save from not abusing AI tokens. That'd make people more efficient.
      • ransom15383 hours ago
        "Apple is paying API prices, not subscription prices, though. $6000/month"

        Smart guy showed up. Yes. Don't do this.

    • htfy963 hours ago
      It's kinda borderline. My dev workflow in my full-time job (Opus 5.5, 5 concurrent worktrees with human checking results and giving instructions) spend exactly $200/day on average. I imagine it could be more friendly if it's $300, as otherwise I might have to move some of my AI usage to weekends, which implicitly increases working hours :[
    • tritiy3 hours ago
      It's 200 per day.
    • szundi3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • jsancs_an hour ago
    How's this part even possible? "Non-English prompts use up to 179 times more energy."

    Does anyone know that study? I mean, I can understand other languages takes more tokens but that amount of energy? ...

    • xiphias2an hour ago
      It can't be true. Most of the energy goes for reasoning and all my reasoning prompts are translated and done in English then translated back.
    • TimByte23 minutes ago
      [flagged]
  • changoplatanero4 hours ago
    $200 a day is not that bad. probably more than the majority of companies?
    • sky22243 hours ago
      Yeah, mine is $500/mo currently, but I have the ability to request more if I can justify it.
    • klodolph4 hours ago
      Yeah, my cap is higher but I don’t use it.
  • aunty_helen3 hours ago
    I’m not sure if the /usage in cc is directly comparable to this? It gives a $ value which I assume is API equivalent.

    Most of the programming work I get opus5.5 to do, sometimes with fable coordinating. When I’m building a large feature it will often run over $500 and occasionally on longer sessions over 1k. Everyone else seems to think $200 should get by?

    I’m looking for a point of reference here.

    • NavinF3 hours ago
      Just checked codexbar. I spend $1,000/mo in API credits across two $20/mo plans (claude and codex) just for side projects. I can't imagine having a API budget in this range for a day job, I'd run out every day
      • 80fj0348i2 hours ago
        Do you work at a company that requires human code review for every change? Even if I tried to spend that much my work would just get logjammed in code review, so I intentionally don't generate output faster than I can get reviewers to read it.
  • vedanshchauhan94 hours ago
    I use claude code $20 plan for the whole month, $200 is a whole year of that.
    • solyin4 hours ago
      Enterprises don't get to pay that plan. That's the consumer option. Businesses pay extra.
      • pixlmint4 hours ago
        My "AI subscription" is just buying 20$ openrouter credits when I run out and it's costing me less every month then a monthly Claude subscription. 200$ a day is insane
        • yokaze4 hours ago
          Your data is likely kept and used for training models.

          For most businesses, that's a no go. At least at the company I work for, we have to wait for new models because they negotiate away the training and retention and the vendors are not too eager to give up their moat.

          That's their moat: your data.

      • anilakar4 hours ago
        As long as you have under 150 users you can get the cheaper 25 dollar per seat plan.
      • speedgoose3 hours ago
        My company pays Claude half than consumer price because we are not for profit.
    • godelski3 hours ago
      Subscriptions are subsidized, so they give you a lot more than what you get with API. It is at least an order of magnitude, if not more.
    • fbrncci4 hours ago
      But if you got access to all the latest models, through your org, without limits to spend, you'd likely not stay at $20 for even a day.
    • teekert3 hours ago
      I also have the 20$ pro plan, I'm not reaching the limits of it... That said, I'm a one man company so I'm not just emptying a kanban board, I use Claude a lot as a thinking buddy, and my deliberations are the thing that limit the speed.
    • Foobar85684 hours ago
      Good for you but $20 is too limited, a review of a code base and it’s gone.
    • veunes2 hours ago
      [flagged]
    • UqWBcuFx6NV4r4 hours ago
      Oh… my sweet summer child. Hang onto that non-enterprise pricing for as long as you can.
  • usernametaken293 hours ago
    I like the term “brute-force inference” because it describes the state of the art accurately.
  • haoyuant947183 hours ago
    I don't use that much to get my job done, but I know some of my friends working in a China's AI company and they use more than $300 per day
  • musha68k3 hours ago
    Do we know if Apple is working on their own SWE LLM? IIIRC they bought the people behind https://github.com/exo-explore/exo at the very least?

    You'd think they must be investing heavily into "secret" agentic engineering dogfooding at this point.

  • natch3 hours ago
    It seems the big AI companies are gouging enterprises with higher prices.

    Claude tells me the retail price of the tokens I use on a personal plan outside of work. It’s way more than the plan costs me, by a factor of 50 or more. But at work I don’t see such discounts reflected in work’s estimates of my token spend. Something strange is going on.

  • Someone4 hours ago
    FTA (emphasis added: Apple has reportedly slashed the daily AI spending limit for SOME of its own engineers, dropping the cap from $300 down to $200
    • froh3 hours ago
      TIL "FTA" means "from the article"
  • veunes2 hours ago
    Yet $200 a day per engineer still sounds like a pretty generous budget to me
  • louskenan hour ago
    Brute force machines are expensive...
  • bookaway3 hours ago
    I got ~3.5 billion a year napkin calculation (if internet stats of a 66,000 engineer count is remotely true).
  • gnarbarian3 hours ago
    if you buy 15 subs each to claude and codex that's a lot of code. not so much if it's an API per token limit.

    I have been able to soak up a weeks worth of tokens in 6 hours with astra ultra if I'm not very explicit and bounded in my requests.

  • tobyhinloopen3 hours ago
    $200 per workday? That’s still a lot
  • siva74 hours ago
    what's the source? ok i know everything is nowadays ai generated but come on?
  • minimaxa3 hours ago
    They could always use Siri for coding, it's an idea?
  • pratikdeoghare3 hours ago
    A push in the right direction.

    Tokens are a resource. We should use as few as possible (Tokengolfing?).

  • heinternets4 hours ago
    That's a lot of tokens. I burn Opus about half the day and reach maybe half of that at most.
    • cmckn4 hours ago
      So if you burned Opus the whole day…
  • whatever13 hours ago
    200 daily means that you use 1 session in a turn-based setup. Hence likely you still know what is going on in the code.

    Once you have multiple agents working in parallel, hands off the wheel becomes very attractive. And at that exactly point you lose completely touch of what the heck is going on in your ex-code.

  • wickedsight3 hours ago
    Giving people an unlimited amount of anything means they have zero incentive to optimize using that thing. It's quite common that we complain here about Electron apps using 1GB for something as simple as a REST client. OTOH, many here keep calling for unlimited token budgets. I feel like capping will cause people to find better workflows, which we really need to in order to reduce (among others) the ecological impact of AI.
  • stonecharioteer4 hours ago
    I'm curious, what laptops do apple engineers get and are they encouraged to try local LLMs?
  • gostsamo3 hours ago
    at this scale, it is totally worth for them to self-host models for part of the work.
  • lifeisloving3 hours ago
    Finally companies are realizing that subsidizing unlimited AI for your employees is basically just paying for the tools for them to work 2hrs a day while you pay them for 8.

    Listen, I dont care if employees scam their bosses by offshoring their work to AI, but its absolutely the case that 90% of people irresponsibly use AI to be lazy, get by doing less work.

    Unfortunately, as Ive personally witnessed when you do this and take away the cheating tools engineers just start copying and pasting IP into their own AI subs where you have less garuntees about ZDR. Employees will gladly spend an extra $200 a month so they can work 4hrs less a day and just get by.

    Only 10%, maybe less, are actual super contributors with AI. The rest are literally getting a form of diabetes of the brain and the exercise required to reverse that disease is quite uncomfortable, especially when you've been hands off using a cheating tool for a year straight.

    • Madmallard3 hours ago
      Companies deserve it and then some.
  • measurablefunc4 hours ago
    So they are paying approximately $6k/engineer-month.
  • throwuxiytayq4 hours ago
    So that’s a yearly budget cut from $110k down to $73k, correct? I could live with that. I’d have a hard time finding ways to burn all these tokens.
    • veunes2 hours ago
      And that's assuming they hit the limit every single day
    • boredatoms4 hours ago
      Presumably they mean work days rather than all days of the year
      • 80fj0348i4 hours ago
        How many engineers at Apple are on-call?
    • zeroonetwothree4 hours ago
      If you work 365 days a year which hopefully you don’t…
  • thewhitetulip4 hours ago
    $ 200 a month and yet new releases of Mac are not upto the mark. Very strange
    • uvu4 hours ago
      $ 200 daily, not month.
    • neevans4 hours ago
      $200 a day
  • brodydung4 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • SadErn3 hours ago
    [dead]
  • petesergeant4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • ath3nd3 hours ago
    [dead]