77 pointsby raybb6 hours ago7 comments
  • rabidheuristics4 hours ago
    “None of the companies admitted fault or liability. They did, however, agree to stop providing Realpage with their nonpublic data for use as an input in Realpage’s revenue management system’s price recommendations, and to stop using Realpage’s RMS in ways that use competitors’ non-public data to inform pricing recommendations”.

    Okay but Realpage has a decade of real pricing data that it can use to continue informing these rental companies and outside of them having extremely hard boundaries in their service this is just going to happen again.

    This doesn’t do a whole lot to address the actual issue, and these companies aren’t going to stop colluding over a wrist slap like this.

    • xvedejas28 minutes ago
      Is there an actual issue? I've seen compelling arguments that places that banned the practice of algorithmic rent setting did not see any appreciable drop in rents. I'm almost convinced the problem is entirely supply side.
    • skybrianan hour ago
      What about when market prices are public? Is knowing the market prices collusion?
      • omgwtfbyobbqan hour ago
        It can be, if everyone also acts to keep prices high by behaving in ways that aren't typical.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion

        • markasoftware8 minutes ago
          Reminds me of the extremely interesting paper https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.05234 Flash Boys 2.0

          Basically when somebody makes a pricing error on a decentralized cryptocurrency exchange there's a mob of automated arbitrage bots that try to trade against it. Who wins and actually gets to make the trade is mainly determined by how high of a transaction fee your bot is willing to pay.

          You can win instantly by offering to trade with a transaction fee so high it almost wipes out all but a cent or two of the entire arbitrage profits, because nobody else will pay a higher fee.

          Instead what happens is bots offer the lowest possible fee, then immediately increase their fee as soon as they see a competing bot try to take the trade with a higher fee. This results in the bot offering the highest fee changing every several milliseconds as the fee quickly grows.

          The way Ethereum mining works, this results in the winning bot being randomly selected from among the set of bots "bidding" up the transaction fee: blocks are mined at random intervals of iirc about 20 seconds, and whoever had the highest bid at the time the next block is mined wins. <20 seconds of bidding is short enough that even with the bidding, the transaction fee doesn't get bid up particularly high, and the winner makes out with a highly profitable arbitrage trade.

          By giving up a guaranteed win and instead rolling the dice against other bots, transaction fees stay low and everyone has a higher expected profit. It's coordination that happens without any communication between the participants and quite possibly the participants didn't realize they were in effect cooperating when they added the high speed bidding behavior to their bots.

  • epistasis3 hours ago
    We need a public rental registry of rental prices that anybody can browse, analyze, etc. The information disparity is a problem.

    However, that's not a systematic method for lower prices. It just prevents individual cases of price gouging.

    • hermanubisa minute ago
      A growing body of economic research shows that this allows producers to keep prices high even with lots of competition.
    • Gigachad29 minutes ago
      How it works in Victoria, Australia is for renewing an existing lease is you must provide examples of comparable rentals in the area at or above the price you are proposing. And the tenant can dispute with their own comparable if they believe the price is wrong. New listings can be listed at any price.

      There is enough turnover with new listings to find the market rate while preventing existing tenants from being screwed over by unreasonable prices.

      Australia also almost entirely works off rentals owned by individuals who own 1-3 properties rather than corporate owners so no one landlord has any sway over the market.

    • kdot3 hours ago
      Al la dc rent registry, which I always thought was ironic because doesn’t this create a database where landlords can consider prices based on others… but I guess it would be public in this case.

      https://rentregistry.dc.gov/

      • Onavo3 hours ago
        Well the point of market based interventions and government regulations like this is primarily to reduce information asymmetry. You still ultimately need to increase supply or reduce demand to move price.
    • lotsofpulp3 hours ago
      I don’t see why rental agreements can’t be registered with the county like house sales are. It would also eliminate the need for squatter laws, as it would be trivial for police to pull up the county website and see who belongs in the home.
      • nicbou2 hours ago
        Berlin wants to do that to enforce rent control more effectively.
      • eruan hour ago
        I think publishing your own rental contract is already legal?

        (Unless the other party to the contract deliberately asks you in the contract to keep it quiet. But that's something you need to actively agree to.)

      • zhivota3 hours ago
        Americans are too privacy focused to accept this, but I could easily see a cottage industry of "registered agents" popping up around it who sign leases on behalf of individuals and shield them from public scrutiny.

        Alternatively we could keep the names private. A cryptographic solution would easily serve the need of authorities verifying the right person is in a place without identification, but good luck figuring out how to ensure the tenant has their keys somehow since in the US there are zero pieces of identification you can ensure every citizen has.

        • tmpz222 hours ago
          Are we privacy focused? Look at products like Facebook Muse, or Facebook, or Instagram, or Whatsapp, or the perv glasses, or or or
          • georgel2 hours ago
            See RealID for how long certain states has been kicking that bucket down the road.
          • wyre2 hours ago
            American's seem to only care about privacy from the government, but wanting privacy from trillion dollar corporations? They keep the stock market high and provide value to their major investors and everyone's retirement accounts so obviously its fully within their rights to spy on us 24/7. /s
      • Onavo2 hours ago
        Well, a Torrens registry systems still isn't universal yet in the US.
    • ihsw3 hours ago
      [dead]
  • exabrial4 hours ago
    _thats it_ ???
    • georgel3 hours ago
      I filed my claim, and based on their calculator this might be the most serious check from a class action (assuming I get the full amount). For me its ~1.5k between 3 named landlords.
      • jadenPete3 hours ago
        Where is this calculator?
        • georgel2 hours ago
          There is no calculator per se, in the settlement they explain the formula for payouts.
  • mmooss2 hours ago
    I wonder what empirical and theoretical substance there is to the idea that the cost of living is due to lack of competition (in zero-to-one markets), and that competition is the solution to much of this.

    On that basis, the 'free market' should be called the 'free, competitive market' - without competition, it has little value. Businesses should be required to compete and to opeerate in competitive markets. Anything anti-competitive should be treated harshly.

    • bruce511an hour ago
      >> Businesses should be required to compete and to opeerate in competitive markets.

      I'm not sure I understand where you are going with this? Are you suggesting that a new product cannot enter a market without a number of simultaneous competitors?

      If I want to roll out fibre to an area that doesn't have it, can I? If I want to build a fresh-produce store in a town that doesn't have one, then I need to find someone else to compete with?

      Lots and lots of businesses operate as quasi-monopolies if you look hard enough. Especially in smaller and rural environments. Lots and lots of places have one gas station, one mechanic, one vet, one doctor, one diner and so on.

      Your use of the word "require" seems difficult to implement. What if no-one wants to compete with me? If Apple stops making Macs, does MS have to stop making Windows?

    • dsr_2 hours ago
      Even without outright collusion, a market without at least seven viable suppliers is not really competitive. Current "monopoly" policy is corrupt.

      (Seven has been experimentally determined, but I can't recall where.)

      • gavmoran hour ago
        I was curious, so I looked this up: Section 5.3 of the 2010 U.S. merger-guideline explicitly classified markets with a Herfindahl–Hirschman Index below 1,500 as “unconcentrated.”

        I can't quote the formula here, but HHI is, apparently, the sum of squared percentage market shares. Six equal-sized suppliers give an HHI of approximately 1,667, while seven give approximately 1,429—on opposite sides of the 2010 threshold.

        Is that where you got the number?

  • aetherspawn2 hours ago
    Yep sue propertyme next
  • throwitaway2224 hours ago
    I've been saying this for a while, but there is a cottage industry like RealPage in pretty much every industry. These companies need to be slammed out of existence for anti-competitive pricing and collusion. So much corruption. I'm so sick of fraud and corruption.
    • crazygringoan hour ago
      I really can't think of any others. Which is why RealPage has been so newsworthy.

      If you have examples of such a company in other industries, please share.

    • mmooss2 hours ago
      Could you give us other examples?
  • jmyeet2 hours ago
    It's both funny and sad to see the mental gymnastics of people trying to find solutions to this when the solution is real simple: it's public ownership.

    Housing needs to be decommodified. It needs to stop being a retirement plan. We need to stop letting people hoard it. We need to stop subsidizing exurbs and making it illegal to build the kind of walkable communities people actually like. Case in point: Red Vienna [1].

    As another commenter noted, this is in every industry. Utilities are a particularly bad one including telcos. All the best ISPs in the US are municipally owned. Chattanooga was the first really big poster child for this.

    Privatization of all these things is just rent-seeking behavior.

    So many of society's problems come down to housing being too expensive. Anything that makes it expensive needs to be stamped out and that includes RealPage as well as Airbnb/VRBO.

    [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY&t=191s

    • dsr_2 hours ago
      ... and the term for this behavior gives it away: "rent-seeking".
    • altairprime2 hours ago
      Which major metropolitan city in America is building half a dozen or more entire apartment buildings in its downtown inner and outer rings, specifically to implement what you’re describing?

      Hint: it has an international airport :)

      Your comment is so outrage-focused that I’m not inclined to help you make your argument. I largely agree with your point, but dialing back the rhetorical pathos would make it more persuasive.