121 pointsby speckx3 hours ago18 comments
  • tw04an hour ago
    I have LED headlights and an LED light bar on my tractor and I can say with 100% confidence that bugs swarm both. To the point I have to wear glasses to keep them out of my eyes if I’m on it for more than about 30 seconds at night.

    I’m guessing he’s confusing the dramatic drop in insect life overall with a change in behavior due to different lights.

    • mitkebes38 minutes ago
      Insects are attracted to low wavelength light, which includes both UV and blue light. Cool color LEDs are usually blue LEDs, and are often used for headlights/etc because they get higher lumen ratings for the power used. Headlights/lightbars are also really bright compared to porch lights.

      If you compare an incandescent soft white porch light to a similar brightness soft white led light, you will probably see dramatically more insects at the incandescent bulb. .

      • motionlessveloc4 minutes ago
        From TFA:

        > We found that LEDs attracted significantly fewer insects than other light sources, but found no significant difference in attraction between the “cool” and “warm white” LEDs.

  • mahboi2 hours ago
    Welp, they do for mine. I've had to stop turning on outdoor LEDs because angry bees kept showing up, and there'd be 3-10 dead ones on my doorstep every morning. These are white bulbs. Might be "zombees."

    Also, not sure about white bulbs, but those color-configurable spotlights definitely emit UV at least when set to anything near blue/purple. They cause certain things to glow. Probably white is doing it too but it's harder to see.

    • legitronicsan hour ago
      The color configurable bulbs or the high CRI bulbs typically use a 400nm led source and some do use a 380nm but those are much rarer and expensive. Also almost any amount of plastic or glass will significantly absorb that wavelength of UV.

      I have a 405nm laser pointer and it makes certain things (any% titanium dioxide) absurdly bright from fluorescence. So you probably aren’t getting UV from those bulbs, but certainly some IR.

    • hk1337an hour ago
      Yeah, we have solar powered LED lights in the walking path where I live and the lights are covered with them. They look nasty.
  • piskov15 minutes ago
    The entire premise (moon uv, ir etc) is wrong so the conclusion is wrong.

    Sky is always brighter than the land, moon is not required.

    Lamp movement is the confusion of where is “up”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-44785-3

    • pasquinelli5 minutes ago
      a conclusion can be right even if an argument for it is wrong.
  • legitronicsan hour ago
    I really don’t think UV is playing much of a role here. You could also sort their chart by power usage, or IR produced. The paper conclusion paragraph even states UV and IR as candidates but the article just says UV.
  • gopalv3 hours ago
    My pet theory is that the dimmable LEDs repel insects (when used as a grow light).

    The thing that insects can see and we don't is the rapid flashing of a PWM power controller.

    I wonder if these streetlights have power saving fade-ins as the nightfall approaches instead of clicking on at sunset.

    Like - https://doi.org/10.1109/CSNT51715.2021.9509652

    • winridan hour ago
      This. It likely depends on the driving technology. Some repell me too :P

      Note you can make LEDs dim without PWM via constant current drivers, just less efficient as the duty cycle is 100%, they look much nicer though

    • dlcarrier2 hours ago
      The streetlights in my neighborhood still have the round photo sensors on top, that have something like a watt of standby current for the sensor itself. I don't think they're trying hard to save powwer.
      • raverbashingan hour ago
        The ones that have a watt of standby are the really old models (probably not sold for the last 30yrs) where you'd have an LDR controlled relay with no electronics

        Anything more modern than that, even if it has a similar case, will use less power

    • Velocifyer3 hours ago
      Don't forget about flicker free dimmable LEDs. I install them in my house.
    • adolph2 hours ago
      The article bluntly states: "Moonlight contains ultraviolet (UV) and infrared wavelengths because it is merely reflected sunlight. Insects cue on UV, believing it to be the moon. . . . Incandescent lights transmit UV but LEDs do not. Insects are far less attracted to LED."

      However, my mind developed a similar conjecture to your's: what if the common frequencies of PWM occur within a kinetic visual blindspot of insect vision, like human saccades [0] in the novel Blindsight [1], so that insects are not aware of the LED at all?

      0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10991/

      1. https://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm#:~:text=%22There...

      • bdamman hour ago
        Are we giving too little credit to the insects?

        They've had many generations to evolve alongside all human false light sources. Insect generations are usually pretty short. Perhaps they just find it evolutionary useful to cluster around human sources of light. Presence of human food, liklihood of bumping into other insects of the same species, warmth, etc.

        If human sources of light were interfering somehow, they've had hundreds or thousands of generations to breed out that proclivity.

        • throwaway19884644 minutes ago
          You assume it is possible to breed out without harming other advantageous behaviors which might not be case.
  • Animats2 hours ago
    Yes, you need some ultraviolet to attract insects. That's why bug-zappers have near UV lamps. They're usually compact fluorescent bulbs. Some ads say 365nm is the right color.
    • somat2 hours ago
      I get quite a few insects that fly around a camera, and that is near-ir. So many that a spider finds it worth it's while to build a web in front.
      • pcdoodle19 minutes ago
        The cozy heat from the IR LED array could be another factor
  • okanat3 hours ago
    Weird. My home has only LED bulbs. There are still moths and bees who get attracted to the light when I leave the window open.
    • recursive2 hours ago
      Do they cluster around the bulbs? If not, they might not be attracted to the lights.
    • Brian_K_White3 hours ago
      Install a single incandescent somewhere and be less mystified by the claim.

      They didn't say no bug ever goes to any led light.

      • ninalanyon2 hours ago
        But it is what the title on HN says. Is it too much to expect something like "Insects swarm less at LED lights" if that is more truthful?
    • aaron6952 hours ago
      [dead]
    • hnlmorg3 hours ago
      I think it’s to do with the LED flicker. You can sometimes see it in your peripheral vision (ie your light/dark receptors) but your RGB cones aren’t as good at spotting it.

      Insects eyes are biologically very different.

      With LED lighting, if you have lots of spot lights in the ceiling and and open door, you’ll likely find that the light leaving the house is a bath of reflection from different sources inside the house and that likely cancels out the worst of the flicker.

  • quirkot3 hours ago
    I wonder how much of it is also the LED flicker. If I was a small bug and moving quickly with a high visual refresh rate, I would probably hate the experience of the LED flicker
    • worldsavior3 hours ago
      There is no such thing as refresh rate for any kind of eye.
      • stevenwoo2 hours ago
        I highly recommend the pop science book An Immense World by Ed Yong to disabuse you of this notion. There is a sort of refresh rate (not exactly the same but good metaphor) for everything at every level of living being we study. It gives enough information for you to read the actual studied should you have more questions after reading it.
      • throwaway2194502 hours ago
        There are odd visual illusions though, like humans perceive the Wagon-Wheel Effect even though there's no obvious reason it should happen. This is the effect where the speed of a rotating object varies depending on its sync with a discrete exposure period.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon-wheel_effect

        https://research.tue.nl/en/publications/subjective-strobosco...

        • qqewqe1232 hours ago
          You mention it yourself, these illusions only occur with "discrete exposure periods". This is moreso related to video recordings and less about how the eye sees actual physical objects. Such illusions do NOT occur with natural light.

          Edit; to be clear there is a version of the wagon wheel effect under natural light, I'm just saying that the main one with discrete exposure periods does not occur irl

          • 17186274402 hours ago
            What? Have you never looked at another car's wheel on the highway? Or is that something that only occurs to some people (doubt it).
            • autoexecan hour ago
              Eye vibrations can cause the effect to be visible to the naked eye. If even humming can do it, the road vibrations might too.
              • 1718627440an hour ago
                I'm confused. I thought seeing/measuring lower frequencies due to a low sampling frequency, where the lower perceived frequency is basically the modulus of the real frequency and the sampling rate, is a well-known phenomenon independent of the actual sensor implementation.
      • quirkot3 hours ago
        Yeah, i know that's how the physics works, but effectively my computer monitor doesn't flicker for me but a strobe light does. Whatever the proper term for that is what I'm talking aobut
      • jschveibinz2 hours ago
        But there is a neurological component in "optical processing" that can be modeled as a discrete rate of update although the underlying physiology is still being investigated.
      • nine_k2 hours ago
        There is for the visual cortex though.

        Try walking outside in a clear night. Look up, notice some stars, or aircraft lights. Now rotate in place, and see how low your vision's FPS is in the dark: the rotation will be visibility jumpy.

        An insect, with its much simpler visual processing, and facing a bright light, will likely achieve a much higher FPS, sufficient for the sub-kilohertz flicker to be very visible.

        • inexcf2 hours ago
          For a game i tried to model the behavior of our eyes in the dark and read up on a lot of that stuff. Not once was there a suggestion of jumpy vision. And that is also not my experience. In low light things begin to smudge, lots of ghosting the further in the periphery of your view they move in.
        • IanCal2 hours ago
          Are you thinking about saccades? I don’t think I’ve ever seen what you’re talking about with non-flickering sources.
      • smallmancontrov3 hours ago
        Nyquist had something to say about that.
      • 3 hours ago
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  • lakeviewterrace29 minutes ago
    What lies.

    I bought LED "bug lights" — those yellow bulbs that are supposed to be invisible to bugs.

    Every bulb in the pack electrically failed within 10 minutes.

    I gave up and went back to an incandescent. Still works perfectly.

    So sick of the zero-quality LED bulbs that have entirely flooded the market. Of course they had their hand forced by government mandates, people needed mass quantities of cheap bulbs that could match a 75¢ incandescent. They didn't have this problem when LED bulbs were $20 each (and weighed about as much, due to the heat sink).

  • nxpnsvan hour ago
    Wow. I put spotlight on a sheet in the garden to figure out what moths we have. Got nothing, and maybe this is why.
    • nemo1618an hour ago
      The gold standard for mothing is a mercury vapor bulb. They are pricey and power-hungry, but they'll have your sheet covered in bugs in no time!
  • oakwhiz3 hours ago
    The study didn't cover high pressure sodium bulbs, the previously popular type in street lamps.
  • 33 minutes ago
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  • theandrewbailey2 hours ago
    Maybe this helps answer the question of 'where did the bugs go', because windshields aren't as full of them today compared to 20-30 years ago.
    • cbg02 hours ago
      The answer to that is pesticides. There's still plenty of insects ready to smash into your windshield in many parts of the world.
      • silisili2 hours ago
        I wonder what percentage is pesticides vs development? I currently live in an area(US) where a drive to the nearest city of size absolutely coats my car in bugs. US, mostly farmland(soybeans/corn). I wasn't here 30 years ago so can't say there's as many as then, likely not. But if it were only pesticides I'd expect the rural areas to have less bugs than the more developed areas...
        • aeonfoxan hour ago
          As someone who has made many interstate trips through Australia's farmland, I can say that over the decades there's definitely been a drop in windshield splatter. It's unsurprising that pesticide deployed at scale reduces bug populations. Even herbicides which aren't intended as insecticides have limited product advantage to being bug-safe (apart from pollinated crops... and even then). Some aren't even human-safe. An extreme example is paraquat, that while being a herbicide, is irreversibly deadly to humans^ when consumed even in tiny amounts.

          ^ Obligatory Chubbyemu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VtUGoGZtI8

      • arcfour2 hours ago
        Pesticides weren't in use 20-30 years ago? Wouldn't more dangerous pesticides have been in use then, too, compared to now?
        • roromainmain2 hours ago
          They have been used much more massively since the 80s, price decreased significantly.
        • mcmcmc2 hours ago
          Yes, and advancements have made them both safer and more effective
    • baoooooooooooo2 hours ago
      wow this would be a neat twist if true - we all defaulted to the negative explanation of having killed them all where a much more positive explanation might be that we're no longer luring them to their deaths at the leading edge of automobiles?

      I guess it is most likely some combination of the above, but if there's any evidence it would be a neat reframing

      • HelloMcFly2 hours ago
        The mass insect-death on windshield issue was as much a daytime issue and nighttime one.
        • amelius2 hours ago
          Are you sure about that?
          • Angosturaan hour ago
            Yes. The daytime crop was always greater than at night
        • mahboi2 hours ago
          The McFlies don't think very much
    • calt2 hours ago
      My hypothesis is better wind tunnel testing for modern cars so that the bugs go over instead of splatting.
  • Xcelerate3 hours ago
    I wonder if it’s only the UV that makes a difference. I have some Yuji SunWave bulbs (and the NIR versions). Would be interesting to test those at night against normal LED bulbs and incandescent.
  • HeyLaughingBoyan hour ago
    Um, no. I live on a farm and often have to do chores in the dark with an LED headlight. Sometimes I have to turn it off because I'm dive bombed by so many insects.
  • ChrisMarshallNY3 hours ago
    I have noticed that. We have LED porch lights, and never see the usual moths and whatnot.
  • skeezyboian hour ago
    because they dont emit UV.... a lot of waffle to tell me that
  • unpleasurable3 hours ago
    Do flames emit UV?
    • officeplant2 hours ago
      Yes, but how much UV depends on what's burnin / how hot its burning. Otherwise they mostly put out IR.

      We use UV/IR combo Flame detectors at work for this purpose.

      • bell-cotan hour ago
        IIR, hydrogen flames can emit enough of their energy in the UV for that to be a serious issue - both direct human exposure, and degradation of exposed surfaces and equipment.
    • metalman23 minutes ago
      lived with candles and kerocene lanterns, etc for years and the odd bug will go nuts and spiral in, but not very many but all in all, there are way less bugs everywhere now
    • devindotcom2 hours ago
      a little but not much, from my quick look online.
    • aaomidi3 hours ago
      No but they emit smoke