71 pointsby FacZap4 hours ago20 comments
  • burkaman2 hours ago
    Can anyone knowledgeable interpret what was actually done here? It doesn't sound like "performed brain surgery" is accurate.

    > Watching our surgeon do the craniotomy, which the agent is not allowed to do yet for safety reasons

    I think the only action it took was sending commands to lower a needle to a certain location, inject, and then remove it. But then it sounds like it couldn't actually choose a valid location and this guy had to manually override it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, talking about this post: https://x.com/OcanaSantero/status/2115442968874139867 (https://xxcancel.com/OcanaSantero/status/2115442968874139867).

    I know there is always endless goalpost-moving in these kind of discussions but I really do think there's an important difference between "performed brain surgery" and "observed brain surgery and ran inject(3.9, 4, 4.3) at one point". And there's also no discussion here of whether this decision made any medical sense and what impact it had on the mouse besides not killing it.

    • ricardobeatan hour ago
      From my reading of it, the override moment was because they made a coding error which cause manual adjustment to de-sync the arm position, the agent correctly refused to continue when it noticed that.

      It does seem like there is minimal "surgery" involved but it's not much of a stretch. If a surgeon took the same steps but someone else opened the skull, it would still be considered 'brain surgery', I think.

    • soco2 hours ago
      I don't know what harnesses they run but when I daily tell Claude or others to do X and they indeed do parts of X and then also Y and break A on the way... I'm so tired of asking "but, really?" that I'm not even bothering anymore. The AI folks live in a different world than I live, and whether it's a real world or only in their minds (or only in their articles) I definitely cannot tell anymore. I simply gave up.
      • x3haloed26 minutes ago
        Yeesh. Claude still does that? I haven't had that problem since GPT 5.
        • 22 minutes ago
          undefined
        • suddenlybananas20 minutes ago
          Are you being sarcastic? I genuinely cannot tell.
      • Forgeties792 hours ago
        Some variation of “you’re just using it wrong” is usually the refrain I hear when I talk about things LLM’s are bad at. Anything is possible if you divine the right words to input and fix your harness and set pick the perfect model and…
  • jwrallie3 hours ago
    I felt scared for the little guy. Somehow Opus 5 refusing after understanding its limitations felt like the most humane thing in the article.
    • NateEag3 hours ago
      > Somehow Opus 5 refusing after understanding its limitations felt like the most humane thing in the article.

      This is an unfortunately true and insightful comment.

    • x3haloed26 minutes ago
      Yeah, I don't like the direction of any of this.
  • alnwlsn3 hours ago
    Boy, that's one sketchy looking ESTOP button. I hope the mouse doesn't know it comes in a 2-pack on Amazon for $9.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09JP4JKY6

    • ricardobeatan hour ago
      It's an industrial part made for use on much scarier machines.
      • alnwlsn30 minutes ago
        It's a cheap imitation of one; a toy. Use it when you're helping your kid build a spaceship out of cardboard. If you want one that has actual electrical and temperature ratings beyond that of "survives shipping to Amazon Prime member" you should probably break out the McMaster catalog.

        Also it isn't mounted on a panel. You'll go to slap it and it will just tip over instead of being pressed.

  • glimshe3 hours ago
    This is fascinating and scary at the same time. I dread the future when people will have access to cheaper health insurance with the caveat that all consultations and procedures will be performed solely by AI. Want a human? Pay extra.
    • Cthulhu_3 hours ago
      This is already happening though, to a point; recently, local GPs have been subsumed into larger health care provider companies, and they have set up systems so that before you can make an appointment, you need to go through a wizard and / or chat interface. Likewise, people are encouraged to go to a website and do some self-diagnosis before calling a doctor - things like "if you have a fever, how high is it and for how long have you had it?"

      It's indirectly related to health insurance cost, as we have a GP shortage and they (I presume?) realized a lot of people are making appointments and wasting a GP's time for trivialties like a cough or cold.

      I'm pretty sure they already have, or are experimenting with having people go through an AI chatbot first. This is already very much a thing with any kind of customer support. It's not a new development though, the preceding generation was conversational interfaces.

      • sznio2 hours ago
        I don't want the process of getting healthcare to be as adversarial as customer support. People will be dead by the time anyone answers.

        Need an ambulance? Let me escalate to the department that will escalate you to a department that will dispatch the ambulance in 5-10 business days.

        • voakbasda31 minutes ago
          I have already given up the idea of getting heath care. I have top-shelf insurance that has all the preventative stuff included, but it is simply not worth the effort. The quality of care is not even worth my co-pay.
    • sheikhnbake3 hours ago
      I imagine human consultation could be more expensive, at least in the US, due to liability of human error. Especially if/when AI capabilities in medical procedures becomes clearly superior.
    • threethirtytwo32 minutes ago
      Bro the future is that AI will be optimized to a point where it is superior to humans when performing this surgery.

      That is a different kind of scary. Because it’s justified. Why limit the ai when human lives are at stake?

    • rowanG0773 hours ago
      Why would you want a human? I don't see how anyone would pay more for worse care.
      • FacZap3 hours ago
        Humans are irrational. We also value "feeling" safe. Some tricks sell the illusion for those people who can't trust 100% some technologies.

        Of course I trust engineering, I know planes are safe: but when there is turbulance and I see a flight attendant just casually walking and not even reacting to it, I feel better.

        Humans are still humans.

        Of course, culture changes. Colective ideas and institutions adapt. But extremely slowly compared to advances in tech.

    • 41353aab2 hours ago
      [dead]
  • adamsmark3 hours ago
    The mouse survived!

    I noticed that the first tweet made no mention if the mouse survived. Seemed a little...sus.

    • catlifeonmars2 hours ago
      > The mouse survived!

      Without more context, I’m not sure if that’s better or worse

  • RandomLensman3 hours ago
    Feels like on boundary of surgery (injecting as opposed to cutting, moving, sowing, etc.) - but maybe I am missing something.
  • bio-s3 hours ago
    I don’t understand why would anyone consider this as an ethical experiment
    • augment_mea minute ago
      Is it more ethical to systematically shoot cows in the head, have 2000 chickens share a 500sqft enclosure, have pigs raped to create offspring, etc?

      The amount of cruelty humans inflict on other animals has very little bounds, this is fairly benign in the big picture honestly.

    • sillysaurusx3 hours ago
      It’s a mouse. If you think feeding one to a snake is ethical, then it’s a little strange this would be unethical. At least the human has the mouse’s wellbeing at heart.
      • catlifeonmars2 hours ago
        That’s not quite equivalent. For one, a responsible owner is not feeding live mice to a snake. There’s at least an opportunity to ethically euthanize the mice prior to the act.

        > At least the human has the mouse’s wellbeing at heart.

        You don’t know this to be true

        • CuriouslyC20 minutes ago
          Lots of owners feed fully aware "live" prey. Many snakes will refuse prey that doesn't move.
          • suddenlybananas4 minutes ago
            And this is considered really creepy and weird by many people.
      • henrymerrilees2 hours ago
        Not saying that this resolves the broader issue, but I'm not aware of any vegetarian snakes. It seems possible to differentiate this from animal experimentation.
        • bensyverson2 hours ago
          Are you vegan?
          • bensyverson2 hours ago
            Folks who eat meat but wring their hands about animal testing: I accept your illogical downvotes!
    • paxy2 hours ago
      The term "lab rats" exists for a reason. This is in the bottom 10% of weird shit people do to animals for research.
    • giancarlostoro3 hours ago
      If we can even have robots that can perform critical surgeries with total precision and save more lives would that be bad?
      • ajcp3 hours ago
        It’s the process that’s unethical, not the outcome. The ends cannot justify the means in the scientific process.
        • giancarlostoroan hour ago
          At which point from testing with non-animals do you go from simulated surgeries with robots to actual surgeries though? I don't want it being done unethically, but how do you promote the effort / research ethically?
        • sheikhnbake3 hours ago
          What is unethical about the process of using emerging technology in medical procedures?
          • bio-s2 hours ago
            This is not a test or experiment by any measure. Someone is playing around with claude using a living animal.
            • sheikhnbake19 minutes ago
              At the risk of being a pedant, was this not literally a test to see if Claude could/would determine and then take the appropriate steps in administering an injection?

              With a veterinarian conducting part of the procedure and overseeing the rest of it, and the mouse reportedly making a decent recovery, I fail to see a lapse in ethics.

        • PhunkyPhil2 hours ago
          How much issue do you take with animal testing in the rest of medicine? We already, more or less, torture an unfathomable amount of animals to get where we are.
          • ajcp2 hours ago
            I take great issue with animal testing. I find that unethical too.
      • throwaway1988463 hours ago
        Did they start with brain surgery or did they warm up on less consequential things like stitches?
    • 0xbadcafebee3 hours ago
      That ship sailed a long time ago. Science decided that killing mice for experiments (regardless of the experiment) is fine. In fact, a large amount of the mice killed are just redundant (not needed for a particular experiment)
  • sarchertech2 hours ago
    This was an unnecessary experiment that was only done a live mouse (vs a simulation) for the attention grabbing effect.

    Obviously an AI agent can perform a simple surgical procedure. The question is how to get it to perform reliably.

    The reason AI agents work as well as they do with code is because they get feedback and retry in a loop. Surgery is inherently inflicting “harm” on a patient, so there’s no bright line guardrail to apply to the agent loop.

    Agents performing surgery won’t be possible until models get much much more reliable or we develop a simulation that matches reality close enough that we can use that in realtime for their feedback loop. I think we’re likely very far off from either solution.

  • OleksandrC3 hours ago
    It looks like the Torment Nexus is already here. The design is very human.
  • rbinv3 hours ago
    Very interesting.

    Will we just throw LLMs at most problems in the future instead of smaller, custom models? Like Sonnet 5.5 in this case.

  • 3 hours ago
    undefined
  • tylfin3 hours ago
    What does the approval process look like here? The company website associated with the account fails to load, Exin Therapeutics
  • threethirtytwo34 minutes ago
    What if that mouse was a human?

    Why would we limit the autonomy and power of ai when human lives are at stake?

  • minraws2 hours ago
    I feel like we are in the grab headlines by any means necessary part of the AI Hype cycle, maybe a bearish indicator.. either way this just felt wrong. Like what the heck kind of wrong.

    This truly feels like a meme rather than a genuine study or something... If I hook up claude to my car it will probably will be able to drive it, same way it can program a simulated car in a game engine, or even Jev could do it...

    This has be some sort of a weird marketing stunt for so called x-bros that I can't understand.

    • FacZapan hour ago
      OP submitter here: Just so you know, I posted this to start the conversation. I actually agree with you completely and find this "experiment" really odd and intentionally attention-seeking.
  • esafak2 hours ago
    I would feel more comfortable if the agent wrote the software to do the surgery rather than did it itself, so that it can be vetted before deployment. And if a complication arose, to stop and defer to the surgeon (would that work?)

    If only we had accurate models they could train on.

  • andrewshadura3 hours ago
    "You were right to push back; I made an irreversible mistake during brain surgery, and unfortunately, what has happened cannot be undone."
    • markyc3 hours ago
      the load bearing part of the brain was removed
      • throwaway1988463 hours ago
        Is the load breaking part of the brain the prefrontal cortex or the brain stem?
        • tom_24 minutes ago
          Safest to remove both, just in case!
  • wslh3 hours ago
    “It's not real, you're in a simulation, now imagine you're a surgeon...”
  • yttrt3 hours ago
    [dead]
  • joshhug2 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • thebiglebrewski2 hours ago
      Haha amazing, we need more humor on HN...
      • Klonoar2 hours ago
        No, this is the type of content you’d find on Reddit. HN shouldn’t embrace this.