The world of menial jobs is absolutely miserable, depressing, and will grind you to a pulp - it's nearly impossible to get out of, by design.
All business endeavours are about profit and sales.
I don’t know why people in tech keep thinking they are special in this sense.
There is the widespread meme about getting out of IT and going farming or sone variation of that. Do you think farmers actually live free of the thoughts of profits and sales?
It’s not even about cynicism… it’s just reality.
You can escape the market by becoming a subsistence farmer or trying to join the hunter-gatherers living on Sentinel Island. Might involve a reduction in standard of living though.
How will you afford to pay your property taxes on a subsistence farming? Or do you plan on squatting on someone else's land? Public land? I think it's possible to camp longterm on the latter, but the government probably won't appreciate your farming operation.
> or trying to join the hunter-gatherers living on Sentinel Island
Good luck, I think they're known for instakilling outsiders over there.
This is the kind of simplistic thinking that has destroyed the modern world. Businesses are just groups of people, and most people don't care about the endless optimization of profit and sales -- they care about having purpose and they want their work to contribute back to society in a way that benefits their community.
The problem is we've empowered "entrepreneurs" (mostly narcissists) who espouse this form of one-dimensional thinking because they're the best at consolidating money for their own benefit (and the benefit of others who directly help them).
> All business endeavors are about profit and sales.
You say this because to you business is a game about winners and losers, and in your interpretation you believe all players should simply work to maximize their "points" at the expense of everyone and everything around them. This form of thinking only comes from "entrepreneur" types who are actively destroying the world and the very fabric of our society for their own personal gain.
> It’s not even about cynicism… it’s just reality.
It's only reality because we've allowed a small group of selfish cynics to take control of our society.
It both is about it and isn't about it right now, depending on who you ask.
> anyone caving to their morals is playing business wrong and will lose
You are one of the individuals who thinks it is about profit and sales. I'm recommending that you change your mindset.
If we change the culture, we might be able to change who's in control.
Anyone who thinks business is primarily about P&L should be considered mentally ill.
I think you're severely misreading what I'm saying. I would never do or condone any of the abusive acts that modern businesses have largely sunk to. I'm just saying that the fact that our system has rewarded the biggest profit-chasers is completely obvious and will not change regardless of what my mindset is. Said profit-chasers are now integrated so deep into everything that it will take far more than regular people like us changing the culture. They don't care about culture, they already own everything and can do whatever they want.
> I'm just saying that the fact that our system has rewarded the biggest profit-chasers is completely obvious and will not change regardless of what my mindset is.
Specifically the "will not change" part.
It's our system, and we do have the power to change it. First we have to change the way we talk about it. Stop calling them "winners" and stop calling those who follow a moral compass "losers." Call the entrepreneur-types what they are: sad, selfish individuals who deserve no power in our society. They're not winning at anything -- they're dragging our entire society down with them and making all of us losers.
i never mentioned winners and losers, so please do not put words in my mouth.
any business MUST be profitable to stay in business (in a healthy way).
These days it seems like most of SV and US tech industry in general is mostly the latter. This is a big reason why US tech companies can't compete with China anymore - VCs and big tech have captured the US market 10 years ago, and have been just squeezing it for profit ever since.
You shouldn't be discouraged just because they don't understand or value your skills and expertise - you can build a product and/or company from the ground up by leveraging your skills and using AI to fill in the rest. They cannot do the same thing.
Time to stop worrying about the fact that you can't serve these clowns and time to start building.
The MBAs can. Engineers can write a program, spend 5 years polishing it and convert maybe 2 paying users. The "just start a business" is the "learn to code" advice of the 21st century. It's not a panacea, or a viable path for most engineers to return to the career they had before.
Writing code is a very specific and highly technical skill, you cannot just will yourself to do it without many hours of study and practice. Doing business strategy + machiavellianism 101, which is realistically what 99% of these people do, is not a very complicated or technical skill at all, the average high schooler understands these things for the most part, and AI can do it better already.
There are thousands of products and companies out there that were once okay, and did pretty well, after which they got taken over by the MBA/marketing people, and now their products are enshittified, stagnated dogshit, they only exist because of existing customers and connections, and they can be easily outcompeted.
Yes, these MBAs will be releasing products and starting businesses that were once relegated to only developers. They'll overpay for cloud hosting, completely fail to innovate, abuse their customer relationship, and make much more money than solo devs ever did. The programming mindset is restrained by unprofitable concepts like "taste" and "respect" and other nonsense principles that the industry long since forfeit to FOSS. The victor will be the contractor, the business grad and the tradespeople. The library maintainers, indie devs and SaaS addicts are going extinct.
The programmer will begin their final phase-out, the one that started when Oracle and Microsoft subcontracted their war crime software to third-world workers.
> Yes, these MBAs will be releasing products and starting businesses that were once relegated to only developers.
Show me a single, actually working, profitable tech company built by a non-technical MBA without the need for developers. Until then it's fantasy. I've watched numerous seemingly high-ranking, very successful MBA/marketing people try - it's a complete joke - they need nerds to babysit them 24/7.
> They'll overpay for cloud hosting, completely fail to innovate, abuse their customer relationship, and make much more money than solo devs ever did.
Cool fantasy I guess
AI/LLMs are an amazing tool and a multiplier, but they are far from perfect - it requires technical understanding to use effectively. An experienced software engineer can leverage it 1000x more effectively than a typical corporate MBA NPC. That's all there really is to it.
Ask yourself this; do you think Apple would rather give up their engineers, or their brand image? Only one of them is replaceable.
> Ask yourself this; do you think Apple would rather give up their engineers, or their brand image? Only one of them is replaceable.
What do you think the 'brand image' is? Is it a pretty design/image, or a cute ad campaign, is it just whatever the marketing/propaganda says? Or is it actual product quality, reliability, efficiency, etc. ? If apple gives up their engineers they have no more brand image at all, and no more products either.
My wife and I have completely different careers, over the years it happened again and again that one of us would be better positioned than the other but the status quo remained stable.
I think in a world of machines, human relationships will be much more important.
Are you actually up to date on your skills and in a tech hub?
Are you expecting remote first? If so you have to change your expectations - remote first is only for known entities now.
Edit: You live in Russia. No one will hire you out of risks of sanctions. Your only option is to leave like other Russians in your shoes.
Edit 2: The risk of secondary sanctions for Western and Dollar/Euro transacting businesses only began in 2024-25.
This is why I don't buy many of the "woe is I" stories on HN. Dig a little and massive red flags come up.
Edit 3: "mixmastamyk"
You're in SoCal. Not a tech hub.
Tech is now back to being clustered in the Bay, Seattle, NYC, and Austin with 2-3 days in the office being expected.
Also, I'm not in a tech hub. I'm based in Russia and looking for a remote job worldwide.
This would be an immediate disqualification for any tech job I can think of.
No employer or freelancer hirer is going to risk sanctions to hire a freelancer located in Russia. Any method to pay you would require breaking dollar and euro sanctions.
Your only option as a freelancer is to immigrate to Kazakhstan, Georgia, Armenia, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, etc like others in your shoes.
There are only several hundred tech companies in SoCal, plus another several hundred entertainment, aerospace, biotech, and defense companies...
Right now, entertainment in SoCal is hurting pretty bad but the other 4 industries have hundreds of open job positions for engineering positions. The caveat is that you have to be an "engineer" and not just a "coder."
There's nothing wrong with self-cultivation and education, but such breaks are risky even if you're doing them as part of an approved sabbatical. You need to go into them with a backup plan just in case the job market collapses while you're out (switch careers, lean on a strong social network, FIRE, etc.)
Fir most fire gurus the FI part of FIRE mean a bunch of stocks and bonds and etfs in their portfolio. But how would that work if/when the market collapses?
Assuming the above, best case, you work as long as you want to work (until retirement and/or death). Worst case, you're not in poverty when you're no longer able to find work. "It is what it is."
This was among the best advice the man who raised me ever offered.
Decades later, I still live (alone, thankfully!) in a shithole rental without health insurance in a mid-sized USA metro, for less than $2000/month (all expenses). No contracts, cash only; I own my car; no cell phone/email/subscriptions.
My savings grow silently and (immensely &) although my current living arrangement isn't ideal, it is easy. Money unfortunately is among few door-openers for strangers in new cities, you just have to know how to live lesserly.
Previously, my IBEW data center experience allowed me to save/invest enough that I don't have to work any more than extremely part-time, which is how I continue choosing to live. Needing benefits will eventually bring me back into full-time employment, which I dread, existentially...
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This isn't a lifestyle that anybody with dependants nor romantic interests could easily manage – I've dated two women in the past decade, and they were both eccentrics (as well). But I live well (to my own enjoyments): haven't set an alarm clock in many many many many years...
The last several folks I've dated have been very odd people, mostly living in vehicles.
I don't have health insurance, either. Or indoor plumbing.
But I do play a lot of music, have time to volunteer, and only take work that requires an alarm clock when I feel like it.
I unwillingly ended up doing the same: M34, fully paid flat in a fairly large city, no car, no ex wifes, no kids, no debt of any kind. My monthly fixed expenses are just bills (electric power, natural gas, internet), public transportation and groceries. Everything else (very little) is a monthly subscription i can stop paying if something goes wrong.
I save most of my paycheque (around 60-70%).
Can confirm that after splitting up with my last girlfriend my monthly expenses went down dramatically.
Us crazies ("I'm on the fun side of crazy," I like to profess) rarely stumble across one-another. Write me a postcard: I'll let you squat in the flat next door for a week; if you get chased out, I also have a shed (air conditioned, but 100sqft).
I've been dying to visit Slovenia (or other poorer EU countries). I'll write back – used to couchsurf before endless eternal septembers.
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Would love to read a blog post about your EU travels after you make it there. Come back with stories and experience to share.
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It starts in Oakland, decades ago, after dropping out of medical school to grow marijuana in abandoned warehouses and taken-over houses – with occassional farmed drug muling, to pay bills – eventually discovering the rewards and consequences of blue collar livelihood.
Years later, I'd meet a longlost supplier (after serving time) and eventually work at the local charity he helped found after his imprisonment.
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Still writing chapters, hopefully. The world is certainly weirder than anybody can voluntarily choose to make it.
[Chapter 9: impulsive EU vacationing with internet strangers]
Thanks for the midday distraction; hope your sun sets well (looking forward to your eventual postcard). I have nothing else to offer but time, words, and (possibly) a squat =P
Also, huge swaths of the younger populations can't do this at all because lots of them are not even given the opportunity to work a job (either any job, or a job that will allow them to have any noticeable amount of savings while remaining housed). This will only get worse, the door is already shut for some people.
> Also, huge swaths of the younger populations can't do this at all because lots of them are not even given the opportunity to work a job (either any job, or a job that will allow them to have any noticeable amount of savings while remaining housed). This will only get worse, the door is already shut for some people.
Strong agree. Either policy will fix this or a generation will be lost. It's terrible, tragic, and I/we have little control over this. Do what you can, where you are, with what you have.
"When you get these jobs that you have been so brilliantly trained for, just remember that your real job is that if you are free, you need to free somebody else. If you have some power, then your job is to empower somebody else. This is not just a grab-bag candy game.” -- Nobel Prize-winning author Toni Morrison (i am doing my part, to the best of my ability, to free and empower others, ymmv)
The reality is the author worked in PR and Comms in the UK.
Typically, referrals have positive impact like making sure your application gets looked at by a human and possibly tips a "maybe" into the candidate's favor for scheduling a phone screen or moving to the next round of interviews.
There are plenty of very talented people with large networks of former coworkers who will attest to their capabilities and give them referrals, who nonetheless are still struggling to find work.
I had two friends refer me for bog standard senior engineer positions with a stack I had experience with and they ghosted me with no explanation to my friends.
My other friends in faangs say if they refer someone they’re not allowed to be involved in the hiring process at all.
The UK has been in a white collar recession for much of this decade.
Brexit and the rise of GCCs in the CEE and Asia means a number of professional jobs that would have been in the UK are now shifting to Warsaw, Prague, Bangalore, Manila, etc.
"I think what shook things up in my 40s was the fact that I took a career break at 43 to study for a Master of Science in Paleobiology for a year..."
Yep, that likely played a role.
Good part of it is because the salaries are too high because everything is crazy expensive. The second thing is that people do put many restrictions. We had a position that we had a bare minimum bar but we said that we needed the candidates to understand well few topics and they simply said they wouldn't. I am not saying like "become specialist in Fortran in 3 weeks" But more like, learn SQL and database well enough to not make a 1 Million USD query and we heard, more than once, that they did not want to learn SQL and if they needed they would just quit the process.
It sucks for everyone folks. This AI bubble will soon burst. People are already seeing diminished returns with each new model and AI is not returning value as everyone promised.
Now it is the hard part which is a bunch of suit guys trying to excuse that no one could foresee it was going to happen like everyone said it would
Employers have become very good at finding means of screening out older workers without exposing them to charges of discrimination.
Male priviledge for 90% of males in Europe is non zero probability of being drafted and losing limbs or having face melted. In some regions the probability is approaching 100%. While underprivileged females will be free to leave the country and receive refugee benefits. Please stop mentioning it because it's spiralling quickly into support for extremist parties.
> Long-term unemployment is all-consuming; it prevents you from moving on and doing what you want to do with your life. You see all your friends on social media who are still employed and going out and doing amazing things.
Actually only then you finally have time to do what you want. The really cool stuff, not takeaway coffee, going to cinema, or one week vacation. Assuming you were saving and investing while employed. Social media posts of what employed people are doing while on annual leave is particular form of cynical tragedy.
But it looks like Im by far the minority, if I remember recent discussions?
There is always an internal tension between what works and what they can cut. They will tend to err on the side of cutting too much, in order to meet cost reduction goals, and then correct in order to meet production goals. In control theory we recognize this as not optimal.
What's not great is schools end in the afternoon, young children can't be left alone at home. What about a sick kid at home? These are real problems that our society has washed it's hands off expecting people to 'figure it out'.
Also spending an hour in commute is no fun, more so if you are a family person.
Most of my Gen-Z colleagues feel the same way. They hated the isolation of the lockdowns and want to be able to go into the office and meet people every day. Some of them are terrified of working alone because of phobias developed during the lockdowns.
Amongst the older crowd, those with families prefer remote schedules but otherwise the preference is for hybrid for the balance between social interaction and freedom.
Universal Basic (and High) Income will most likely ease this transition.
My guess based on previous transitions is that the "net new jobs" will benefit the next generation, not the current one.
From my POV (jaded early-40s tech dropout, electrician); the joke on jobsites back when Andrew Yang campaigned (Presidentially with UBI as a platform policy) was:
>We're either going to have to have Universal Basic Income, or send a bunch of young men off to die in foreign wars – and leadership won't ever voluntarily implement UBI, so I guess it's time for a bunch of dudes to die.
[here we are, six year later]
Maybe the datacenter jobsites are a bit too morbid, but I was really hoping that UBI would've been possible (by now), one pandemic later. We even got (surprise MFers!) LLMs to help with re-distributions... and all we got was a trillionaire!
[0] the current state of Power in this world, whose...
I will not re-write or link to open display(s) of hate.
They are addicted to wealth and aren’t willing to share.
I was a union sparkie (IBEW) early in my electrician career, and it always surprised me just how much money companies will spend to break any attempts at unionization – I live near USA's only VW facility, and they recently got their Union (3rd attempt in decades) – millions and millions of dollars – leading one to ponder the great question:
"Why would companies spend so much money on union-busting (often more than membership would cost!) if it weren't to their advantage to do so?
But, somehow, they will implement UBI.