117 pointsby Zeekaas6 hours ago46 comments
  • lucasluitjes6 minutes ago
    Confusing title, both the original and the one here on HN.

    Three french supermarket chains had their refrigeration systems hacked.

    Separately, a super market chain serving Belgium and the Netherlands shut down a large chunk of their IT systems due to a "cybersecurity incident", primarily affecting distribution centers and grocery delivery services. But the supermarkets are currently open, and do not have refrigeration issues.

    Suspicious timing and these incident could well be related, but that has not been reported so far.

    It could well be one ransomware attack on Ahold Delhaize, and an unrelated attack on a refrigeration supplier. Note that a similar refrigeration attack happened happened to a number of US military installations a few weeks ago.

  • renyicircle5 hours ago
    > Connecting your case controller to the internet offers further opportunities to generate savings. If you can diagnose issues and control the case remotely, service engineers needn’t be called out to simple situations like starting a defrost. And being able to compare performance and efficiency across an entire estate of stores makes it easy to spot patterns and make incremental efficiency gains. (https://www.danfoss.com/en/service-and-support/articles/dcs/...)

    I wonder if the incremental efficiency gains from this outweigh the damages. That doesn't even sound like a bad idea, unless of course nobody stops to think "but what if someone hacks this".

    • rich_sasha2 hours ago
      There’s a whole massive industry out there of companies looking to make 2% efficiency savings on everything, and VCs looking for this. The glossy presentation might have even said 2FA somewhere so yes it’s definitely safe.

      The perspective of resiliency and how much will you lose if things go wrong seems kinda… new?

      Funny that it should happen in France which has been at the forefront of European self resilience.

    • Delphiza5 hours ago
      Good find.

      The biggest issue is that many of these IoT devices are badly secured. I spent years trying to convince people to build more secure IoT systems, but they always preferred cheap and easy solutions.

      • blooalien5 hours ago
        > I spent years trying to convince people to build more secure IoT systems, but they always preferred cheap and easy solutions.

        For me this has always been true of systems in general all across the decades that I've worked with technology. It's like pulling teeth to convince anyone in charge that backups or security are even a little bit important until after there's been a costly disaster, then it's all about "Why didn't you warn me this could happen?" - Umm... You mean like every single day for many months until you told me to shut up about it because my paranoia doesn't justify the tiny expense of ensuring you don't lose many tens of thousands of dollars or years of irreplaceable work or important records?

      • renyicircle3 hours ago
        I went through a manual you mentioned in another comment. It listed "High level of security against undesired user access" as one of the features but it wasn't expanded upon. So I did more searching and found cybersecurity best practices from Danfoss.

        https://www.danfoss.com/en/service-and-support/fix-and-troub...

        They highlight connection through a firewall, mention secure remote access methods, monitoring for data breaches, strong access controls, etc. Reasonable, but these are just recommendations, so the stores could have followed all of them or none at all.

        An article about Danfoss vulnerabilities mentioned in a different comment (https://claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controller-de...) says

        > we searched publicly available internet-wide scanning platforms, including Shodan and Censys, for signatures associated with its management interface. It didn't take long to find what we were looking for. Numerous controllers [2765] were directly accessible from the public Internet.

        So none at all is a possibility.

      • master-lincoln5 hours ago
        I would have said let them be doomed. But due to late stage capitalism so much has been centralized that everybody is doomed in many cases...
        • FeloniousHaman hour ago
          I look forward to the safe diversity provided by early stage socialism!
    • bluGill5 hours ago
      Why are technicians (service engineers!) coming out for a simple defrost in the first place? The normal defrost cycle should be automated. For anything else you need someone to come out anyway because something is wrong - there is no point in starting a defrost cycle if the root cause is leaking refrigerant - fix the leak and refill the system both of which need to be done in person.
    • Melatonic2 hours ago
      Seems like two totally different issues. One is cost and one is efficiency gains.

      For the latter I would imagine you could have a short (maybe a month) logging period where you connect the fridges and collect data and then comeup with some offline system to manage them generally for better efficiency. You could even have a test group or single fridge that you keep connected to the internet for future data points (like in case of a giant heatwave or something)

    • pjmlp5 hours ago
      Thankfully these kind of attacks make pressure to finally have liability in software like in other industries.
      • blooalien5 hours ago
        The people who should be held liable never will be. Their money is like an impenetrable shield to any sort of accountability. They'll just scapegoat the guy that warned them about the risk repeatedly for not doing more to prevent it.
        • pjmlp5 hours ago
          It has to start somewhere, even if imperfect.

          I have been in meetings were the Data Security Officer refused to sign off on specific projects, without having a proper pentesting report in place, for example.

          Because legally it would be their responsibility, if something would happen.

    • Simulacra5 hours ago
      And I would bet dollars to donuts that someone at that company would respond "who's going to hack a refrigerator? Heh"
    • floatrock5 hours ago
      We all keep a shotgun next to the printer in case it makes an unexpected noise here because the average HN reader knows a fridge manufacturer knows nothing about infosec and the lowest-bid contractor they farm the connection does the minimum to check the boxes. So yeah, we've been rightfully complaining about why does my icemaker need an internet connection for years.

      Lets combine some testy topics: will LLMs make this any better? On the one hand, if it's easy for fridge manufacturers to churn out code, will the slop create enough cracks in the icemaker to sail the titanic through? Or will the lower barrier to pretty good security agents get more security into the IoT field (assuming it's taken advantage of?) Or will it not matter because the store manager will just set the web portal password to 123456?

  • WalterBright37 minutes ago
    These vandals are what creates a low-trust society, where everybody needlessly suffers.

    I remember working on my car when I lived in an apartment. I'd take my tools out into the parking lot, and get to work. If I needed to use the potty, or get a snack, or whatever, I had to pack up the tools and take them inside. Then out again. It really stinks.

    I currently live in a high trust neighborhood where I don't need to be present with anything outside.

    It's so much better.

    • jimmySixDOF29 minutes ago
      Digital hackers who cause real world harm effects should get treated like the terrorists they are with all that means in terms of the available inerdictions.
      • r_luna17 minutes ago
        They should be treated as pirates (law of the sea). I think terrorist are charged under piracy laws.
  • codedokodean hour ago
    What genius decided to connect a fridge to the Internet? Make him pay the losses.

    By the way similar thing might happen to geniuses buying Internet-connected cars.

    • ronnieran hour ago
      Offtopic: I only see "genius" used these days to describe an idiot. I guess this is how words change meaning over time. At some point in the future being called a "genius" will always be seen as pejorative.
      • crossroadsguyan hour ago
        That's because calling an idiot an idiot plainly is apparently considered uncouth and attracts downvotes, flags and downvotes often mean oblivion. In fact you will find do-gooders chome in with "be civil" but you flip the word and it's all kosher. The thing is all of us do and say idiotic things. So that makes a bit tricky indeed.

        > in the future being called a "genius" will always be seen as pejorative.

        If you are not a genius and someone calls you a genius, well, for you the future is already here, genius! (Shit I didn't really mean that :P)

      • codedokodean hour ago
        There should be a name for this style of speech, using "good" to mean "bad".
        • dyauspitra minute ago
          There’s a lot of this in African-American vernacular.
        • xioxox12 minutes ago
          Semantic inversion or contronym
        • saimiaman hour ago
          Irony? Camp? “genius is a camp - so good that it’s bad”. “In the sentence ‘this is the sh1t’, ‘sh1t’ is camp - so bad that it is good”.
        • akoboldfryingan hour ago
          Sarcasm
      • fussloan hour ago
        just like 'Nimrod' becoming an insult
      • saimiaman hour ago
        Genius take!
    • vincnetasan hour ago
      people who like saving money decided to do this. For simple monitoring purposes. When you have thousands of fridges you want to know how their doing and you don't want to sent a person to inspect each one of them.
      • codedokodean hour ago
        You could connect to an on-premise server. As a bonus, the manufacturer cannot disable them and extort money in this case.
        • fussloan hour ago
          If the only usecase is monitoring, then why make the fridges anything else but report-only?

          No firmware updates. no admin configuration. no ssh backdoors. just a transmit-only system

          • luckydataan hour ago
            because the report code might have bugs
            • AlotOfReadingan hour ago
              If it were transmit only, you could put it behind a data diode and buggy report code wouldn't matter. Even better, validating the code is a lot easier if it doesn't accept attacker input.
      • dietr1chan hour ago
        Monitoring requires one-way announcements, not bi-directional connections
    • SapporoChris24 minutes ago
      It sounds like you are victim blaming. I apologize in advance if I interpreted you incorrectly.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming

  • interloxia3 hours ago
    Freeze the Controller, Defrost the Food: Uncovering Vulnerabilities in Danfoss Refrigeration Controllers Amir Zaltzman / August 9th, 2026

    https://claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controller-de...

    • jttnr13 minutes ago
      We all know the saying: The S in IoT stands for secure.

      A quick search puts the list price of the touchscreen-equipped controller at around €7,000 [1]. So this is hardly the typical dirt-cheap IoT device you can buy for a few bucks from China. The product label also says "Made in Denmark."

      This vulnerability certainly appears more complex to exploit than the ones routinely found in cheap IoT devices.

      Still, I wonder why, in the age of Tailscale and Nebula, a large company like Danfoss doesn’t use overlay networks to make these services accessible only to technicians and other authorized personnel, rather than exposing them publicly. From a technical standpoint, a company with 40,000 employees should be capable to pull this off.

      [1] https://www.lefroid.fr/fr/c/p/402785

    • renyicircle2 hours ago
      This is a great find, would be nice for it to be mentioned in the original article. It all worked out just like the title says. I guess someone didn't upgrade their firmware in time.
  • GoofGarage38 minutes ago
    In the U.S. the following brands are affected (systems were proactively taken offline):

    * Food Lion, 1100 stores

    * Stop & Shop, 400 stores

    * GIANT/MARTIN, ~190 stores

    * Hannaford, ~160 stores

    Websites are down at the very least. May affect ability to place online orders for pickup and delivery. Mobile apps are down. “In-app coupon” redemption is likely down.

    US brand physical stores are open and selling to customers.

  • MisterMunchkin6 hours ago
    Interesting. The government has been suggesting war with Russia is coming. This would be a great initial move. Take out the European food supply network, then hit things like the grid and the internet.

    It's funny because red storm rising is an old book at this point, but it's pretty accurately shown exactly how conflict with Russia plays out. Even down to Russia realising it is about to run out of diesel... causing it to invade Europe while it still can.

    • mvdwoord6 hours ago
      An apt time to revisit this gem...

      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4192998/

    • hn_submit5 hours ago
      Russia will never attack NATO, that would be their death knell. NATO is a hundred times stronger than Ukraine, who are kicking Russia's ass as we speak. I even suspect that if Putin were to order an attack he would be put down by his own people.

      Yes, they're threatening and doing some low-key sabotaging (through third-parties for plausible deniability, which is good for us since we can choose not to respond), but they're shying away from actually killing people through means that might be directly attributed to them (like with a Shahed drone).

      I do accept that Russia wants to hurt NATO for our support of Ukraine, but there's a limit to how far they can go.

      • WinstonSmith845 hours ago
        > Russia will never attack NATO

        You think about a frontal attack like in Ukraine, and maybe you're right. But Russia is already waging a much more subtle war against NATO. Look at who's leading the US. Look at Brexit. Or look at who could soon lead France or Germany... Their conventional army may be weak, but they don't need to fire a bullet either.

        • hn_submit4 hours ago
          Look at the former Soviet republics that helped Russia win WWII by supplying it with an almost limitless supply of soldiers. All of them have refused to allow their citizens to fight for Russia in Ukraine.

          And if you know your history you'd know that Russia had to pull out of WWI because the country literally ran out of men during the conflict.

          Their political influence, even with right-wing politicians who might be skewed their way, will be limited. And could change at any moment as we've seen with Orban.

    • SanjayMehta4 hours ago
      Russia is out of diesel because they're shipping it to Trump.
      • haunter3 hours ago
        Drones run on diesel?
        • verdverm2 hours ago
          the world runs on diesel: ships, trucks, tractors, trains
    • 4gotunameagain6 hours ago
      Russia cannot invade Europe, that is nonsense peddled by the EU establishment to support their idiotic military Keynesianism as part of a plan to reboot EU manufacturing.

      They are struggling to take a couple of villages in Ukraine, why would they invade the EU.

      • reincoder5 hours ago
        I have read some Asian country's (who are friendly with Russians) government foreign affairs required readings that is like 2 year old by now. Those materials say Russia is being cornered. They had no other option to but to invade Ukraine. But with sanctions they are more cornered and are desparate. They thought China would ally would them but China's selective neutrality is making them desparate. Those documents say that Russia never actually deployed their main regiments and only worked with mercenaries and allied country armies.

        No body knows how much petro product Russia is producing or who is buying them. Those diplomatic documents suggest treating simultaneously as a black box and a cornered animal. The financial sanctions actually was a double edged sword considering UK essentially blocked all foreign transactions even for international infrastructure investments Russia made to foreign countries and at the same time from a global perspective UK was not seen as a reliable financial partner. So, Russia is desparate, EU is desparate but they are not allowed to sit in a table to negotiate... Because US will not allow that. If a war happens across EU every party invovled will see this is to be positive thing because for the last decade economies has slowed down and political views has become extremely polarizing. A war at a massive scale brings everyone together for their country and economy jumpstarts.

        • pjc505 hours ago
          > They had no other option to but to invade Ukraine

          This is of course a stupid lie they are telling themselves. They've been invading Ukraine since 2014. They had the option of being good international citizens, with an elite flying to the west and buying some football teams for their entertainment, but they chose not to do that.

          > Russia is desparate, EU is desparate but they are not allowed to sit in a table to negotiate... Because US will not allow that.

          Russia can retreat inside their internationally recognized borders at any time. The problem is they don't want to sue for peace because that would admit losing, and include losing illegally annexed territory. They've made no serious attempts at even starting negotiations with Europe, while escalating "hybrid warfare".

      • wongarsu5 hours ago
        To be fair, that they are struggling to take over a couple of villages in Ukraine is in large parts due to the intensified arms and ammunition production of the entire EU (and in the past that of the US). And that's only enough for a standstill
        • flohofwoe5 hours ago
          Ukraine did a spectacular job to stop the full-scale invasion in the initial hours, days and weeks when there wasn't much international help yet though (and I guess from that moment on the war didn't go quite according to plan from the Russian PoV).
          • ivan_gammel5 hours ago
            Let‘s not underestimate the corruption within Russian intelligence services, that resulted in invasion without any meaningful military planning. They spent the budgets corrupting Ukrainian elites and brainwashing population of the Eastern Ukraine, probably taking a cut in their own pockets, but they were not expecting to be held accountable for the result. The success of Ukraine in early days was in the element of surprise. Their resistance was not expected by Russian leadership, and the invasion itself was not expected by the middle ranks of Russian military. It did not go according to the plan, but plans change, and this war demonstrated weaknesses of all major powers - in a way, Russia did tick some boxes. As successful Ukrainians were in that moment, NATO has lost the war for them failing to mobilize in time, also taken by the surprise (as if CIA weren’t warning months ahead that this is going to happen). If Patriots, tanks and ammo would start flowing in the first weeks, maybe we would see peace in Istanbul accords in 2022 already.
          • scns5 hours ago
            Ukraine took out a Yandex data center, which made the pro Trump bot traffic drop.

            https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cw0k0g57mk3zo

            • sillyfluke5 hours ago
              The article you linked to says nothing about the connection to pro-Trump bot traffic fyi
          • hn_submit4 hours ago
            Ukraine could've done much better if they'd mobilized and fortified their borders before the invasion. But Zelensky refused to do so (despite warnings from the U.S.) because war with Russia was hugely impopular with voters in Ukraine before the actual attack. They'd much rather stick their heads in the sand.

            So a lot of their territorial loss can be attributed to his inaction. If they'd laid several million landmines in the Donbass the Russian attack would've been stumped and the occupied Crimea would've been easy prey.

        • brookst5 hours ago
          Standstill with Ukraine looks bad, and authoritarian regimes can survive almost anything except looking bad.

          Responding to a NATO “attack” from Estonia, Putin can pivot to a bigger enemy where of course Russia has to employ universal conscription / nuclear weapons / whatever. The country must unite against this unprovoked western attack, etc, etc.

          • hn_submit4 hours ago
            Nuclear weapons are no option. Russia would be wiped off the map before they could push that button.

            A single Tomahawk missile could obliterate Moscow which would immediately end the war because Russia is extremely centralized. It's the reason almost 80% of all Russian SAM capability is stationed around the city.

            Putin is unpredictable but he's not stupid. You don't become president of Russia by being stupid.

            • smallstepforman3 minutes ago
              Putin is extremelly predictable, which allows the western warmongers to do nefarious things knowing very well he’ll assess the long term risks and be very cautious and accept limited damage to prevent a larger conflict. Use your grey matter and think logically instead of parroting propaganda.
      • rwyinuse5 hours ago
        Large scale invasion is not likely, but they could try some limited operation to test NATO's unity. Most likely location would be somewhere in the Baltics.
        • fennecfoxy5 hours ago
          Lmao they literally assassinate people with nerve agents on British soil as is and get told they're naughty boys and not to do it again please.

          I think an actual invasion would initiate a very serious and deadly response, but their constant pranks will continue to go unpunished (unfortunately).

      • goobatrooba5 hours ago
        Not Europe but a few Baltic states are feasible. No one says they can hold it, but Putin has his own reasons so we should not think we can conclude on future Russian actions based on what we consider reasonable - e.g. no one predicted that a war on Ukraine was likely as it seemed to be completely irrational and self-defeating.

        If nothing else, war has been many times convenient to keep regimes in power (see Bush post 9/11 for an obvious example). Putin might want to strengthen his case. See absurd discussions / push for a "Republic of Narva" as an example cause belli.

        • flohofwoe4 hours ago
          May sound like nitpicking, but the Baltic states are Europe both geographically and organizationally (eg members of the EU).
      • flohofwoe5 hours ago
        Never underestimate the stupidity and irrationality of autocratic governments. Putin also decided to invade Ukraine after all even though he should have known better.
      • SanjayMehta4 hours ago
        Europe is rearming on the lines of the 1930s, because Russia is struggling to take a couple of villages.

        They can't take Kiev but they're threatening Paris.

      • torlok5 hours ago
        They cannot win, but they can invade. We're already in a hybrid war. The threat is real and Europe needs to be prepared and be able to stand on its own, especially now that also the US is not only directly threatening EU countries, but is acting against EU security both globally and internally by supporting separatist neo-Nazi pro-Putin parties.
  • red_admiralan hour ago
    On the one hand, this might be an escalation of a war below the threshold of "Europe orders general mobilisation". On the other hand, it seems that you just have to sneeze in the general direction of anything 'cyber' to cause an incident, shame on us if we can't get very basic security in order.
  • jtchangan hour ago
    So tossing out an idea:

    What if all manufacturers had to classify their product into internet connected i.e. smart or not. We mandate that manufacturer has to support updates for minimum 5 years or firmware source goes public. Have them put firmware source in escrow as well as have a way to update it.

    If a manufacturer wants to reduce their liability then they have to release something to make it semi publicly supportable. With AI agents these days patching the firmware might one day be trivial.

    Put some penalities with teeth behind this and maybe manufacturers will think twice before making everything smart.

    • vincnetasan hour ago
      You suggest that supermarket fridges should not be connected to network?
      • lossolo30 minutes ago
        I think he suggests that manufacturers should be responsible for keeping their products reasonably secure.
  • AndrewThrowaway5 hours ago
    My first idea was "who the hell needs connected fridges".

    Then I remembered that both my AC and floor heating are connected.

    A hacker could easily turn on both AC and floor heating and cause me a few euros of damages in my electricity bill.

    • Tangurena25 hours ago
      Internet connected fridges are not new.

      2014:

      > A fridge has been discovered sending out spam after a web attack managed to compromise smart gadgets.

      > The fridge was one of more than 100,000 devices used to take part in the spam campaign.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25780908

      Lessons were not learned:

      2017:

      > A critical security flaw dubbed HomeHack exposed 1 million LG smartThinQ IoT home devices, enabling hackers to easily gain access to users’ homes and take full control over any LG smart device connected to the account, including dishwashers, vacuums, air conditioners and washing machines, found security researchers from Check Point.

      https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/securi...

    • floatrock5 hours ago
      Or keep duty-cycling the units until the pumps burn out...
    • kyriakos4 hours ago
      my water kettle has wifi support for some weird reason.
    • driverdan5 hours ago
      who the hell needs connected AC and floor heating?
      • AndrewThrowaway4 hours ago
        I moved to a new apartment with all this stuff installed.

        At first I thought exactly that - just why.

        When days started getting warm in the beginning of the summer I started investigating and thought that it might actually be a good idea - you could turn AC an hour before you come home to find cool room.

        When summer hit I actually found out that you just leave AC on all the time and it just keeps temperature at 22C or so and there is really no need for it to be connected. You don't want to turn that off as it is more economical to keep the room cool than letting it to get hot and then trying to cool it fast. It barely even showed up on my electricity bill at the end.

        So all in all - really not needed.

  • abosley2 hours ago
    Same (an outage) happened to the US military commissary system https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2026-09-01/army-cid-inve...
    • linuxguy2an hour ago
      I was hoping there would be more discussion about the overlap of these two events.
      • vkouan hour ago
        The overlap between those two events is that digital security sucks ass and that attacks are much easier to mount in an era of agents.
        • drummojgan hour ago
          I can see advantages to collating data for both organizations, but to it just raises the question, once again, of why simple appliances are connected to the Internet.
          • an hour ago
            undefined
          • red_admiralan hour ago
            That, and why there's not a company VPN in between.
            • jandrewrogers13 minutes ago
              These industrial networks are often not internal to a single company, sometimes by necessity. They also are often installed in places with inherent connectivity difficulties, so sometimes you are bridging weird networks that limit what is possible just to get the signal out.

              These aren't consumer fridges with wifi. The situation on the ground is significantly more complex. There are a lot of embedded sensors and control systems in supply chains in order to minimize waste.

            • vkouan hour ago
              Because a main user of this is the third-party HVAC contractor, and there's a operational cost to getting him set up on the grocer's VPN. (He has thousands of clients, that's in aggregate a lot of customers that would need to give him VPN access. He will do whatever the client asks of him, but he will bill accordingly.)
          • vkouan hour ago
            1. There's nothing simple about a commercial HVAC install, especially across a national chain.

            2. Because they think (rightly or wrongly) that the benefits of monitoring and ease of maintenance and their contractor having direct access to the data outweigh the risks.

            3. They think it outweighs the risk because IOT has been socially normalized, creating the wide perception that no, it's not that bad.

            They almost certainly have insurance for this kind of event, and their insurer will almost certainly think real hard about the pros/cons of this, and will adjust rates accordingly. The grocer is free to take those rates into account when deciding on whether their next store will have an IOT HVAC.

  • alexdrdr6 hours ago
    Only going to get worse as hackers get increasing access to more advanced AI models and compute

    Open weight models catch up quickly, so it is only a matter of time before Fable level models are in the hands of bad players

    Key issue will be that banks and key infrastructure *may* get their security patched in time. But there’s going to be so many vulnerable companies like in this case

    • Tangurena25 hours ago
      No. Politicians will do no such thing. There have been hacks/attacks of internet-connected appliances for more than a decade. LG is notorious for demanding that appliances be connected (why does a washing machine do when connected to the internet?).

      IOT security needs to change.

      There have been some changes to SCADA security, making it harder to hack into water treatment facilities (for example) but in my opinion, not enough.

    • revolvingthrow2 hours ago
      > Key issue will be that banks and key infrastructure may get their security patched in time

      They'll do nothing until a few get pwned into the dirt. Same for power distribution systems, it's all parochial boomers calling all the shots.

      For AI, what's funny is that it's the solution to securing your ancient hardware that's no longer supported. I reverse engineered almost all electronics I own, just by having modern AI models have a go at it and knowing almost nothing about the topic. It's something that a person can do, but a company won't even consider.

    • notyourwork6 hours ago
      And hopefully regulation following it.
      • jayGlow5 hours ago
        What regulations would help with this? companies that actually host the models themselves can be regulated but open models can e abliterated or otherwise modified to stop them from refusing tasks. I'd be very wary of any regulations that prevent people from hosting or making their own models and weights.
  • fzeindl6 hours ago
    Great. We already waste a ton of food, let’s destroy even more.
    • renyicircle6 hours ago
      It's probably a small drop compared to the overall amounts of wasted food. I guess the hope is that it will teach some people important lessons, like "your refrigerator shouldn't be connected to the Internet, and if it absolutely has to, take some time to consider security".
    • 0123456789ABCDE6 hours ago
      these are the visible effects of a hybrid war, not the pranks of script kids
  • neilellis2 hours ago
    Claude had munchies....
    • asdffdasyan hour ago
      "claude, make better use of eletricity costs. stop services not required for the task. make no mistakes"
  • 0x4e2 hours ago
    I think it's important to see if this could happen on a larger scale. What if it wasn't only French supermarkets but also important supply chain chokepoints of food worldwide? What would happen to food prices?
    • timjveran hour ago
      >What if it wasn't only French supermarkets but also important supply chain chokepoints

      The largest supermarket chain in the Netherlands has currently halted most of its distribution centers due to an ongoing "cybersecurity incident": https://nltimes.nl/2026/10/12/empty-shelves-likely-albert-he...

    • stickfigure2 hours ago
      There is probably enough variety in refrigeration technology that this scenario is unrealistic. There are many tens to hundreds of manufacturers worldwide.
      • pipsterwoan hour ago
        Similar issue affected a US military base very recently. Multiple manufacturers doesn't help if they source the same components.
      • codedokodean hour ago
        By the way, Soviet refrigerators are immune to this type of attacks.
        • vincnetasan hour ago
          because they are empty?
          • codedokodean hour ago
            Obviously, because they cannot be controlled over Internet. Also, some consumer Soviet refrigerators are still operating, they were made pretty reliable because one could not easily replace one.
  • anilakar5 hours ago
    > cyberattack, which has hit Danfoss-made refrigeration controls

    Danfoss AK-SM 720 or 850? Pull the ethernet cord, now.

    The latter can be flashed with the new 800A series firmware which is safer, but I still would not put it on the public internet under any circumstances.

  • csvm33 minutes ago
    Here's a fix:

    if(temp > 5) return;

  • moi2388an hour ago
    The same happened to a major Dutch supermarket chain.

    Seems a coordinated attack, perhaps not coincidentally on the day the US supreme NATO commander gave a speech about the defence against (hybrid) attacks.

  • Aarostotle2 hours ago
    Maybe the agent swarm passed its “warmth” eval.
  • dmitrygr9 minutes ago
    It makes me happy to see stuff like this. There should be more of it. In a good world, this would eventually lead to serious fines, jail time, and more things that don’t need Internet connection not being Internet connected.
  • gessha6 hours ago
    “Got another blackout in Santo Domingo. Netrunners are at it again, poking holes in the power grid!”
  • 472828476 hours ago
    Fridge attack! We live sci-fi indeed! %-)
  • SpicyLemonZestan hour ago
    > Danfoss told AFP in a statement that most of the affected equipment was "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates".

    I worry that this kind of thing is going to be a recurrent problem. A lot of people have pretty strong intuitions, or even an explicit moral position, that they should never have to upgrade a physical machine that's working fine. Is there a threshold of vulnerability that will overcome that, or are we just going to see a lot more hacking of random infrastructure from now onwards?

    • dopa42365an hour ago
      Would such a thing even be covered by insurance? Or is it negligence for using a product after it might turn into an unstable bomb at any time?

      On the other hand, wild that it doesn't revert to some sort of offline backup mode after warranty ends. Or that anyone bought it in the first place (that can't be standard in the industry, right?).

    • robinsonb5an hour ago
      I'd hope what we'll actually see is people finally demanding that appliances with no need of an internet connection don't get connected to the internet!
    • umeshunnian hour ago
      I would expect a refrigerator to work 20+ years. What does a legacy product even mean this situation?
      • SpicyLemonZest29 minutes ago
        The article makes it sound like these were intentionally networked refrigerator control units, not the actual refrigerators. But I’m not an expert, so I can’t rule out that it’s not possible to run a commercial refrigerator without one of these.
    • alphawhiskyan hour ago
      I mean, you could also argue that the lack of reliance on physical controls caused the incident in part. For example, a City's public works department may have remote access/control for some of their equipment, but they also have a kill switch that removes all connectivity and reverts the system to a default setting. They also have checks in place like "if the unit heater will be overamped, turn it off." This seems like it was caused by a lack of security considerations when making these devices "online". Old tech can work very well for a long time as long as it is modernized correctly.
  • StableAlkyne6 hours ago
    There is so much needless connection to the internet nowadays; this is the end result of a decade of shoving IoT into everything.

    Beyond some corporate manager seeing a dashboard that will cause them to say "oh neat" in a meeting once, there is zero reason to put a refrigerator's cooling system online. Or frankly any network for that matter. Is there really such a massive productivity increase from being able to remotely change the temperature when a human has to physically visit the machine to restock every day anyway?

    • Delphiza6 hours ago
      There are a bunch of good reasons to connect a commercial refrigeration unit to the Internet (via IoT). Notification when failover to the secondary cooling system happens, notification of when ambient temperature is too high, optimisation of energy consumption (especially after hours).

      Doing it insecurely by, for example, having a device with a web server on the fridge is problematic. Not being able to deploy firmware updates. Having too much of the control loop exposed (as opposed to monitoring only), can lead to issues.

      Service-oriented industries with costly assets will look to Internet connectivity for competitiveness and efficiency. It needs to be done better.

      • an hour ago
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      • renyicircle5 hours ago
        I didn't expect to spend so much time today thinking about fridges. I have so many questions. If it's all so connected and monitored and notifies of issues, couldn't it notify anyone that the settings are weird, like continuous 50 degree Celsius defrosting? How much access did the hackers have, apart from temperature controls? Could nobody intervene quickly before the damage was done? Was there a way to "unplug" the fridges or they would just keep frying, so they had to get people across all the stores doing manual resets?
        • bluGill5 hours ago
          It can do all that IF YOU THINK OF IT and then write the program to do it. If you think of it - which is unlikely because it never happened before (or perhaps it did before but electronics are reliable and so you think it won't ever again).

          These are commercial units. There is no plug. There is a circuit breaker in the back room, but general rules is only an electrician is allowed to touch them: if they are off there is always a good reason (until now) and so random staffers touching the panel to turn a breaker on is likely to kill somebody.

        • Delphiza5 hours ago
          Look for "Danfoss AK-SM 720 user manual" and scroll through the pdf.

          You'll find that these are quite complex control systems and their data may not be integrated into an operational or security control centre. So if they are not configured for, or resourced (in terms of operators), to handle anomalies, how do they notice and respond?

          Without knowing anything about the attack it may be that the controllers were not connected directly to the public Internet, but an on-site VPN that became compromised some other way. Or with a compromised laptop of a technician that connected.

          So while you are thinking about fridges today, think about how you would secure and operate control systems across tens of thousands of stores. Would that be easier without Internet connectivity? How do you get qualified and experienced technicians into each (air gapped) store? Another complexity is that many of these systems are part of facilities management systems (HVAC, lighting, security, fire control) and managed or owned by a completely different organisation that is not going to share their data.

    • Lyngbakr5 hours ago
      I always feel like such a buzzkill and Luddite when talking about IoT. My sister-in-law excitedly told me how her air fryer can be controlled remotely via an app. I think she also expected me — a techie — to be excited, but all I could see was unnecessary risk and usage data being slurped up by a corporation. I'm sure there are lots of good applications of IoT; however, I don't think this is one of them.
      • bokohut2 hours ago
        And your SIL would just be as likely excited too about a MOEN wifi connected voice controlled kitchen faucet. Ain't it cool!

        She will not be as excited however when the water bill comes and cannot pin point where the additional water they claim to have not used has gone.

        Then we move on to even more serious potential life changing appliances that are wifi connected of which your SIL would certainly just be as excited about. Wifi connected hot water tanks of which some here know how they work and what this remote ability allows. Ain't it cool!

        She will not be as excited however when the medical bills come nor every single passing day when she sees the visible scars she must carry for the remainder of her living days for being 'cool' - ironic huh?

        Reality hits hard as most humans are reactive and those that have been in this game for many decades grossly understand the dark side of insecurely connecting devices that have life changing implications. Medical devices companies have already shadowed their software mistakes yet such information only stays in the shadows for so long.

        "What you cannot see matters most!" and many tech illiterates are currently learning this in most unfortunate ways. Some of that learning will scar both mentally and physically for life. Ain't it cool!

        Many people here reading this are a lot smarter than I and such can therefore extrapolate and add to what is unfolding in the world. It shows little sign of stopping as more and more devices are connected daily under the guise of 'easy'.

        Thus the underlying absolute reason to "Stay Healthy!"

    • pjmlp5 hours ago
      Added to it that those devices are powered by firmware written in C and C++, with various levels of quality control if any, and no field updates.
    • quickthrowman5 hours ago
      > there is zero reason to put a refrigerator's cooling system online.

      There are plenty of good reasons to do that. It’s not a consumer refrigerator, it’s a collection of evaporators and condensers and sensors that are controlled by an automation system. Remote monitoring can alert operators to problems so they can be fixed before the food spoils.

      Authentication is hard.

      • dns_snek5 hours ago
        > Authentication is hard.

        Authentication is easy, getting people (esp. leadership) to give a shit is hard.

        Control loop is obviously local and performed by dedicated controller hardware. If you only need remote monitoring then don't expose any management functionality.

        If you want remote management, then define an envelope of allowable system parameters that can be controlled remotely. Allowing defrost to be initiated remotely has obvious risks and known solutions - add a hardware interlock, like a physical button or a key switch.

        Even if you ignore all other precautions and allow all parameters to be controlled without limitations, strong authentication is still easy to implement, if anyone cares enough to do it.

  • mneil3 hours ago
    This is terrible. But, at the same time, why now? This seems like something you'd want to hold onto for use later as a nation state. And there's no money to be made here since you can't really ransom it. Was this just a petty attack to scare the public?

    On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer and others will have an increased security posture going forward.

    • codedokodean hour ago
      > On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer

      I initially misread it as "On the bright side, I'm the manufacturer..." (and earn a nice profit).

    • queenkjuul2 hours ago
      Manufacturer abdicated saying those models are no longer supported and so not receive security updates.

      Wonderful world we live in where refrigerators and cars also become e-waste because a manufacturer gets tired of patching them

      • essephan hour ago
        > Wonderful world we live in where refrigerators and cars also become e-waste because a manufacturer gets tired of patching them

        We're in a "post-patching world" in that the number of 0days coming out is so rapid, I'm not sure it would even matter.

        The physical architecture itself is the problem. There needs to be better controls (physical and software) to access those systems. Airgap possibily.

    • psychoslave2 hours ago
      Script kiddies are on LLM steroids now. I’m so glad I kept my home "smart" stuffs fully disconnected from any network. No, I can’t control my home temperature from the other side of the world when in vacation, and so can’t the rest of the world until they physically enter it.
      • bambax2 hours ago
        I think that's exactly what happened. A kid found out (via an LLM or otherwise) that fridges' temperature were remotely controlled, probably with lax security (or no security at all) and decided to play with it.

        It's not immediately obvious to me why fridges in supermarkets need remote control; a supermarket is a place where there are always people, it's not a base on Mars. And even if a remote is needed, it should probably not go further than the manager's office.

        • Shank2 hours ago
          > It's not immediately obvious to me why fridges in supermarkets need remote control

          I don’t know to what degree control is needed, but remote supervision of cold holding temperatures is good to make sure food doesn’t spoil. Most places that don’t have networked fridges have staff manually logging the cold holding temperatures to make sure things are working.

          Again, though, I don’t know about making changes though.

          • bambax2 hours ago
            In this case it's not like the devices were turned off, they were put on "defrost" which means heating up to 50°C (122°F). Why would you need the ability to remotely set all your fridges to defrost??
            • amluto2 hours ago
              One possibility is that it’s maybe useful for the fleet operator to be able to remotely update firmware and the attacker used that.

              The other, more likely, answer is that there’s a diagnostic mode that allows raw control of the system and no one bothered to require physical presence to enable service mode.

              With remote firmware update capability, at attacker could easily brick the entire fleet. With just service access it could be possible but would be more complex.

          • bmilleare2 hours ago
            I remember having to do this every few hours 25 years ago when working at a store part-time as a student.

            Having networked telemetry seems like a good idea, just not sure why they would need remote control too - that seems far more dangerous than necessary.

        • queenkjuul2 hours ago
          15 years ago a retail chain i worked for had all their HVAC thermostats centrally managed by corporate. This isn't new and it is stupid but how else do you ensure shareholders keep every possible cent of profit (in the short term of course)
    • AnimalMuppet2 hours ago
      > On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer and others will have an increased security posture going forward.

      Wow, are you an optimist. The manufacturer has stated that they're past the period of security updates. And others... meaning the supermarkets? They outsource that. The people they outsource it to? Maybe they'll start paying attention to security.

    • pvaldes2 hours ago
      > why now?

      Probably to inflict pain on the life of the voters so they can blame the government and manipulate the 2027 French presidential election in April. Maybe just a test.

      Same as the high velocity train being sabotaged again just in the Spain national day. Hybrid war.

      • input_shan hour ago
        Come election day, do you really think many people's deciding factor would be a supermarket refrigerator incident from half a year ago? Especially considering that around the same time something far more... shall I say politically meaningful was happening at the same time, such as students protesting the lack of school funding?
        • pvaldes38 minutes ago
          This is just one in a thousand problems that will happen until that day. A high velocity train wagon was set on flames today, blocking the railway and creating chaos among thousands of passengers that try to return home after the holidays. Why?, because it makes the government look bad, and inflicts maximum pain on people, just when Spain is also about to celebrate elections. Angry people vote the loudest voices.

          In France this benefits the pro-Russian Lepen's party with the "government is a disaster but we will make them pay for your suffering". Page "16" of the manual. In the end is all the same handbook all around the planet.

          Just by the record, EU has just approved the biggest packet of sanctions against Russia so yes, they know. The more desperate grows Russia, the more this will happen. Until it will stop, suddenly, for no reason.

    • newsclues2 hours ago
      Who benefits from chaos? There is a war raging in Europe, maybe start there
      • ungreased06752 hours ago
        Exactly. This is fifth generation warfare.
        • newsclues2 hours ago
          Unrestricted warfare is a book more people read to be aware of
    • dist-epoch2 hours ago
      You assume there must be some nation state behind it.

      But it could be just for the lulz.

      Remember the hackers behind the seven proxies, AntiSec, which hacked the NATO library website, and went to prison for it.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_AntiSec

  • hn_throwaway_992 hours ago
    This is literally everything that's wrong with the modern tech industry in a nutshell:

    > Danfoss told AFP in a statement that most of the affected equipment was "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates".

    They sell fricken refrigerators for God's sake. Maybe I can understand planned obsolescence for a cell phone, but a fridge? And especially to grocery stores that operate on razor thin margins to begin with, the idea that they'll just dump their old working refrigerators because the manufacturer refused security updates is a guaranteed recipe for stuff like this.

    • matthiasl36 minutes ago
      Danfoss are quoted as naming two systems, AK-SM800 and AK-SC355.

      AK-SM800 looks like a current product. Danfoss have a PDF dated 2026.06 about it: https://assets.danfoss.com/documents/latest/590332/BC3376298.... This mentions "All new Electronics platform supporting new Operating System (based on Linux)", and specifically advises against connecting it to the internet.. Reading between the lines, especially section 10.5, it sounds like there was a major security revamp in 'release 4.0'. The article mentions "outdated firmware", so perhaps that refers to things before 4.0.

      AK-SC355 looks like a product from 2010 (that's the date in the PDF metadata, plus the examples in the manual mention 2009). https://3.imimg.com/data3/ID/LC/MY-3170595/danfoss-system-ma...

      I haven't worked with supermarket control systems, so I only know what I've read in the PDFs, but it looks like this is not about throwing out entire fridges to update the control system. If you have the newer AK-SM800, it looks like the suggested action is to update firmware and follow instructions about keeping it well away from internet access. If you have the older AK-SC355, then keeping it away from the internet is even more important. Or, update to AK-SC355.

    • _ache_an hour ago
      It is a way to move the responsibility to the "users".

      But the hack has already been disclosed and it's the responsability of the manufacturer to ensure that the fridge keep ever up to date or offline.

      As with the USA Defense hack, it could have been prevented.

      The hack: https://blog.claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controll...

      • hn_throwaway_99an hour ago
        Ugh, this is even worse. The vuln was just disclosed a couple months ago, and so it was literally just a matter of time if not all systems were patched.

        I can't for the life of me understand why these systems aren't air gapped, or at the very least network access is restricted to a small number of IPs or hardware keys.

    • zer00eyz2 hours ago
      I have to question why this control system was even in place.

      I could see remote monitoring (of temps) and logging on the system (cycle time etc) but does one really need to control the defrost cycle? It's probably just a web interface on a single controller that used to be accessed by HVAC techs only.

      > > "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates".

      Because it's the EU I have to wonder if they will finally mandate that software go into escrow and be released if support stops.

      • isodevan hour ago
        > Because it's the EU I have to wonder if they will finally mandate that software go into escrow and be released if support stops.

        Hopefully it will extend to consumer tech like iPhones and other “waste as soon as {corp} is done with it”

    • quickthrowman2 hours ago
      Grocery stores do not use standalone refrigerators, I’m not sure why I have to keep repeating this fact when every single person has been in a grocery store and seen refrigerated cases that have a dozen or more doors.

      They use cold cases and have rooftop or outdoor condensing units and evaporators inside of the cold cases/freezers/etc. There’s refrigerant piping running all over the place and there’s a bunch of sensors and relays that are automated to manage the refrigeration system.

      My assumption is the Danfoss control system they’re using is EOL, it’s the grocer’s responsibility to upgrade their automation equipment if it’s unsupported.

      • sergdigonan hour ago
        No need to make assumption here, the article says it clearly:

        > Danfoss told AFP in a statement that most of the affected equipment was "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates". It said its AK-SM800 and AK-SC355 fridge regulator systems were notably affected, with a version of the former using "outdated firmware". It added that it had long advised supermarkets to update from those models.

        That being said I am curious what is typically the amount of time for software support offered on a newly released equipment and how common it is for super market to use obsolete software (especially for the part which carry some security risk like something with remote control). Also what about the insurance? Will they (fully) cover the financial loss? I don't know what is in their insurance contract and I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that using obsolete software make the supermarket responsible to some extent

        • MC99539 minutes ago
          > how common it is for super market to use obsolete software (especially for the part which carry some security risk like something with remote control).

          It's a near guarantee. I've been in dozens of power plants where the engineering workstations or operator interface terminals are running Windows XP or Windows 7. More than zero of which were not properly air-gapped. If those sites (with sizable CapEx budgets) delay upgrading for various reasons I would expect grocery store chains to keep whatever they have running until it's broken to the point of not being fixable without a complete overhaul.

      • mroban hour ago
        That doesn't excuse them being controllable over the Internet. I can understand that remote monitoring is important, but it's in a supermarket. There's always going to be somebody on site who can control things locally. The telemetry can be transmitted via data diode, automatically re-transmitting on schedule so there's no need for any remote control.
        • quickthrowmanan hour ago
          > There's always going to be somebody on site who can control things locally.

          No, there is not always someone onsite with the experience and knowledge to monitor and change the system. Grocery stores do not have staff refrigeration techs onsite, they contract that out.

          • mroban hour ago
            There's always going to be a manager with access to keys. They get the HVAC tech on the phone and set the controls as instructed. They're still vulnerable to somebody scamming them into setting the controls wrong, but they at least have a chance of recognizing who they're talking to, and recognizing obviously crazy instructions (e.g. "turn the thermostat up to 50 degrees"). And even if they don't, the attack is a lot harder to scale with a human in the loop.
      • jt21902 hours ago
        I assume you’re talking about a system like this:

        https://www.danfoss.com/en/industries/food-and-beverage/dcs/...

      • bob1029an hour ago
        I'm with you on the remote monitoring but why do we need remote control?

        Dispatch an HVAC tech if an alarm comes up. Physical access should be the only way to shut down a system like this.

        • quickthrowmanan hour ago
          > Physical access should be the only way to shut down a system like this.

          Your opinion does not change the fact that virtually every automation system can be access remotely. It can be done safely with proper access controls.

          • bob102915 minutes ago
            > It can be done safely with proper access controls.

            gestures broadly

      • lowbloodsugaran hour ago
        “God news shareholders! We have decided that we didn’t make enough sales this quarter so we have EOLed a whole range of products!”
        • quickthrowmanan hour ago
          I understand you’re being sarcastic, but yes, eventually technology gets better so a manufacturer refreshes their product line. This is extremely common in many industries.
          • SoftTalker26 minutes ago
            They do but they continue to service the old lines for quite a long time. This is not consumer grade equipment, it represents a large capital expense and also at stake is valuable inventory. The consumer "you're SOL when the warranty expires" approach won't fly.
          • lowbloodsugaran hour ago
            "French supermarkets hacked because this is common in many industries". Maybe it should not be common? Maybe selling internet connected industrial plant means those things must be supported forever?
  • fennecfoxy5 hours ago
    I wonder if AI would have helped in this situation.

    For example [request to defrost n fridges in y locations]->[agent cannot find any emails or business communications about this and last defrost report was only a short time ago, contacts z personnel]->defrost task moved to manual confirmation by a human.

    I know many will roll their eyes and "tchh" at it but look at number of AI related topics on HN front page and think to yourself if you're tired of this tech not being used for real applications or not. This would be a real application.

    "But it could be tricked" well...regular requests can apparently already be hacked, so...

  • hn_submit5 hours ago
    I feel no pity for them at all. If they're too stupid to secure their fridges (which seem to be accessible over the internet) than that's their deserved pain.
  • throw-the-towel2 hours ago
    How in the name of fuck was a fridge even designed to be able to heat itself to 50 degrees C?
    • alwa2 hours ago
      Fridges tend to have built-in defrost cycles these days. Without that, ice builds up around the coils that ordinarily cool the compartment (and by extension the ambient moisture in the air, encouraging it to condense). And you'd have to thaw it yourself from time to time.
    • zacharycohn2 hours ago
      Every refrigerator has a defrost cycle - which is just a heater. It normally only runs for a few minutes at a time, but if you change some bits around, it could run for a lot longer and a lot hotter.
    • dn35002 hours ago
      It's probably just running the heat pump in the other direction. 50° sounds about right for the hot side. I expect that the hotter the better, because it will melt the frost without warming the food. And if a bad guy hacks in to the freezer, he can probably override any kind of temperature control and just tell the compressor to run full out.
    • gizajob2 hours ago
      I thought that. Now looking for the heat setting on my fridge. I guess it’s in case you need to antifridge sometimes.
  • pjmlp5 hours ago
    Another good example why writing secure software matters in the age of connected devices.
    • blooalien4 hours ago
      > Another good example why writing secure software matters in the age of connected devices.

      I wonder how many more decades of screaming into the void will be required for it to be taken seriously by those who deny any/all security efforts until after the disaster has already happened (and then still will only approve the absolute minimum required efforts)...

      • pjmlp4 hours ago
        Well, if we start counting from Morris worm, without liability in place, plenty more.
    • flohofwoe5 hours ago
      Of course the bigger question is why a refrigerator is even a "connected device".
      • pjmlp5 hours ago
        Because it is cool! (pun intended)

        For the same reason, we hardly have heating meters in Germany that aren't wireless connected to the maintenance company.

        To save costs doing maintenance trips to check their state.

      • arwineap5 hours ago
        So they can monitor if something goes wrong, have a tech troubleshoot and deploy with the right parts.

        Modern HVAC and fire control b systems for buildings are often connected now as well

        • flohofwoe5 hours ago
          Yes it was more of a rhetorical question, e.g. maybe we need to rethink that whole idea of plugging everything into the internet and instead go back to air-gapped "local area networks".

          It also wouldn't be a big deal when a supermarket employee makes an old-fashioned phone call (gasp!) to the refrigerator service company when some red light starts blinking ;)

          • pjmlp5 hours ago
            The poor fellow, or gal, now has to endure AI bots while trying to call support on the phone.
            • Delphiza5 hours ago
              While the app is beeping at them to pack more shelves, and they have already used up their only toilet break of the day to trying to stop the resourcing AI chatbot from putting them on triple shifts for the rest of the week.
          • Delphiza5 hours ago
            The trained and retained supermarket employees are gone. The refrigeration service engineer has been replaced by an AI chatbot. We can't scale to qualified people running complex systems on remote air-gapped networks.
  • kotaKat6 hours ago
    ... Feels like deja vu. Didn't the US military just have this happen at its military exchanges... a month or two ago?

    Yes, yes they did. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2026/08/28/...

    "ALL freezers went into defrost mode – ALL frozen food has spoiled".

    • bastard_op3 hours ago
      I realized upon reading too this was the same Danfoss fridges that got hit for .mil bases in the US. There's probably a shodan signature to find them on the internet because HVAC people don't know about network security, and someone has a trivial exploit to access them due to shitty ancient embedded controller security in them.
    • ninefathom6 hours ago
      This was precisely my first thought upon reading. "Ah, yes - the attack that was PoC'ed against commissaries operated by the US armed forces a bit over a month ago."
    • chimneychanga5 hours ago
      Yeah I remember that, and it seems like the military was very hush-hush about the cause. Now I wonder if they were hacked too.
    • black66 hours ago
      Yes, not exactly "unprecedented." The news of Commissaries having their freezers hacked should have been a kick in the rump for everyone else with infrastructure needlessly connected to the Internet.
      • RugnirViking5 hours ago
        the sort of people doing this security posture definitely are not up to date on the latest security news...

        It would take something truly monumental to make a local supermarket owner even consider the potential for their fridges to be an attack vector.

  • ex-aws-dude6 hours ago
    Why is that even internet enabled?

    If you want to defrost it presumably someone already needs to be physically present to unload the fridge?

    • Kevin_Flynn6 hours ago
      My guess, its a service contractor type situation, like getting a smart meter. You can opt out, you just wont have power.

      They had a contract with a fridge company, and the service agreement required remote monitoring such that, the service company would be able to detect and troubleshoot remotely, and schedule calls.

      The problem with situations like these is that your network security falls to the lowest common denominator, which in this case, is a group of HVAC technicians.

      The conversation was something like this:

      HVAC company: "Oh yeah, our software does this, and that, and we monitor everything, and thats why our contract is less, we dont waste time and we use sophisticated technology. And of course its 100% secure because expert boffins wrote it."

      Grocer w/ 2% margins: "Sounds great."

      To be clear, I'm not throwing shade on HVAC technicians. I'm only saying, they aren't network security specialists, thats all.

      • wongarsu5 hours ago
        Somebody wrote the software that is the interface between the fridge and the internet. And while it would be nice if HVAC technicians would remember to only make this software accessible via VPN, it is in fact possible to write software that is reachable from the internet while still being secure

        Given that we agree that HVAC technicians can't be relied on for network security, this is 100% on the fridge company for having insecure software. If it's a bad password or an unchanged default password that's still on the fridge company for not enforcing something better

        • Kevin_Flynn5 hours ago
          Of course its "possible" for it to be secure, but the people involved are not experts.

          The grocer likely has the least expertise. The HVAC company has more, but as evidenced by the article, not enough.

          Now obviously, these companies have internal "information systems experts" but again, how does the banana guy interview a CIO ? Grocery store CIO might have gotten the job because he made the banana guy comfortable by talking about sports.

          Each party was confident in a successful outcome, until the 15 year old kid across the globe pulled the rug.

          The processes that created this situation were inadequate, because glad handing and name dropping cost less than formal systems validation.

          Of course, the other way to view all of this is ... they just completed formal systems validation, found 1 bug, and paid whatever the food spoilage cost was for it, because no matter how much preperation one does on a project, at some point the power switch gets flipped, and its wait and see.

          In a group project, noone is ever sure if Poindexter over there in the corner is quiet because he's quiet, or is quiet because he knows the code is crap and his boss ordered him to ship it anyway.

          We're likely dealing with at least 4 companies here, if not more:

          contracted programmers <-> fridge equipment maker <-> HVAC sales/service group <-> grocer

          3 of the 4 companies could have all said to themselves "Project ships on Monday, no matter what" because who carries the risks for any flaws ? The grocer(s).

          • dns_snek4 hours ago
            > Of course its "possible" for it to be secure, but the people involved are not experts.

            They're selling network-accessible equipment so it's their duty to make it secure within some well-defined envelope. How's that any different from any other part of engineering and product development?

            > "Project ships on Monday, no matter what" because who carries the risks for any flaws

            Soon that will be the OEMs, per the EU Cyber Resilience Act [1]:

            > Directive (EU) 2024/2853 [on liability for defective products] of the European Parliament and of the Council (16) is complementary to this Regulation. That Directive sets out liability rules for defective products so that injured persons can claim compensation when a damage has been caused by defective products. It establishes the principle that the manufacturer of a product is liable for damages caused by a lack of safety in their product irrespective of fault (strict liability). Where such a lack of safety consists in a lack of security updates after the placing on the market of the product, and this causes damage, the liability of the manufacturer could be triggered. Obligations for manufacturers that concern the provision of such security updates should be laid down in this Regulation.

            [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2024/2847/oj/eng

            • Kevin_Flynn4 hours ago
              Given the potential service contract nature of this particular situation, where the grocers signed a service agreement with HVAC companies, one would think the contract included clauses addressing this very situation, where a significant loss of inventory occurs. After all, the service being paid for is refrigeration.

              With floor planning, the loss itself could be spread across multiple companies, under multiple insurance policies.

              With that said, this particular hack could easily be a systems / networking "configuration error" and not any particular piece of softwares fault ( as in a bug, or hardcoded backdoor password. )

        • Delphiza5 hours ago
          IoT platforms provided all the required functionality. Device provisioning (it is not easy to do identity on 'things'). MQTT for service-assisted communication where devices don't need to accept incoming connections. Over-the-air software updates. Over-the-air kernel security updates.

          The 'fridge company' and other product manufacturers decided to skip all that and run everything on a raspberry pi with apache, or an ESP32 soldered onto the control board, and call it finished. There are millions of these devices out there.

          • Kevin_Flynn5 hours ago
            I just read the article again. It mentions "Danfoss" HVAC controls.

            I happen to have a Danfoss HVAC controller here, and its controllable via Modbus. Its an older model, but its my understanding that larger HVAC systems commonly use Modbus.

            Modbus systems are multi-drop serial, and the hack likely came in from the server side of one of the companies involved, and the HVAC controllers were all sent defrost commands. Thats my guess anyway.

            I have a pump thats Modbus controllable as well, made by a company called Grundfos.

            Gonna make a water battery.

            Shift my cooling load into off-peak rate hours.

            Stickin it to the power man. :D

            Seriously, you guys would love these pumps.

            https://product-selection.grundfos.com/us/products/magna-nor...

            It has wifi. Neighbor kids are gonna defrost me. :(

            • lrasinenan hour ago
              Modbus is the equivalent of VGA connector in displays and projectors. It does have a TCP/IP version as well, but it has no security whatsoever. Or any features besides reading/writing a 16-bit value (or a single bit, charmingly referred to as "coil")
              • Kevin_Flynnan hour ago
                Absolutely.

                I'm in the beginning stages of giving my home HVAC system an upgrade and using Modbus throughout with various adapter boards.

            • Delphiza5 hours ago
              Yes, that is likely. Although Danfoss seems to have their own controllers, I think that you are right, that the attack was not an 'Internet connected fridge', but an HVAC or FMS (Facilities Management System) that was connected to the fridges.
      • Tangurena25 hours ago
        In the 2013 Target attack, the attackers used the HVAC contractors' credentials to gain access to Target's systems. The point of sale credit card terminals (what customers swiped cards and enter PINs) had no real security so the attackers were able to make those get "updates" from their own servers and download malware enabling them to get the magnetic stripe information as well as PIN (for debit cards). That year, I (like about 150,000,000 other people) got a brand new credit card with a new credit card number.

        https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/09/inside-target-corp-days-...

        Newer PCI standards require much more secure customer-facing terminals and much more secure back-end systems so that much of this attack could not happen again.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Industry_Data_Sec...

      • m0005 hours ago
        > Grocer w/ 2% margins

        You have clearly never stepped foot inside an Albert Heijn store.

        • Kevin_Flynn5 hours ago
          > You have clearly never stepped foot inside an Albert Heijn store.

          I have not. I travel in the ALDI circle.

          2.1% net profit is what AI says the US grocery industry averages, so individual product margins would be higher.

    • polytely6 hours ago
      Yeah I feel like cheap enough AI will make having internet connected appliances such a huge liability that most devices will have to go back to as dumb as possible
    • 0123456789ABCDE6 hours ago
      someone, or something, needs to monitor the fridges remotely, which means networked thing with all the cute little details of the IOT tacked to it

      edit: these are unlikely to be directly connected to the internet, but rather part of an internal network that got popped, likely a while a go too

    • quickthrowman5 hours ago
      Have you ever been to a grocery store?

      These aren’t consumer refrigerators, it’s a collection of large cold rooms and cases with a bunch of refrigerant tubing and multiple condensers, evaporators, and sensors. It’s a bit more complex than a single home refrigerator.

  • lemoncookiechip6 hours ago
    Why is this even connected to the internet. If you want to monitor it remotely, you can set that independently from the actual controls.
  • 5 hours ago
    undefined
  • swarfield2 hours ago
    Why the fuck are those fridges even networked!?
    • esikich2 hours ago
      Because they need remote monitoring. I have experience with HVAC so I'm guessing these are similar: typically outsourced to a third party, typically a VM running on a dedicated server, accessible by Citrix or something similar. Supermarkets don't internally staff fridge repairmen.
      • asdff2 hours ago
        They could just use connected temperature probes though. no need to connect the power supply of the damn compressor to the internet.
        • pixl9741 minutes ago
          A lot of these devices are temperature controllable as the product in them may require different temperatures. They can have temperature ranges from refrigeration to freezing.

          Also adjust power usage depending on time of day and such.

      • adverblyan hour ago
        You don't need to network the fridge though... You just need a networked sensor...
        • esikich35 minutes ago
          That's assuming you just need to maintain a static temperature, which probably isn't the case.
    • faidit2 hours ago
      None of the supermarkets were managed by Commander Adama, apparently.
      • 2 hours ago
        undefined
    • ceejayoz2 hours ago
      Centralized maintenance and monitoring?
      • pavel_lishin2 hours ago
        Monitoring makes sense, but it feels like it makes no sense at all to allow that kind of remote maintenance without staff on-site to OK and verify it - who could then do the maintenance themselves.

        Otherwise, this sort of spoilage could easily happen by accident as well.

        • blitzaran hour ago
          > remote maintenance without staff on-site to OK and verify it - who could then do the maintenance themselves

          These are minimum wage workers - they don't have bean bags in the nap room, employee massages and stock options.

        • esikich2 hours ago
          Supermarkets don't staff HVAC/fridge repairmen. There are separate companies they pay to do this.
          • queenkjuul2 hours ago
            Right: and someone from that company can come out and do maintenance when the monitoring indicates it's necessary
            • vkouan hour ago
              When, say, your internet craps out, would you rather your ISP try to resolve the problem, or schedule to send a tech out to your home before they start working on fixing the issue?

              Groceries see HVAC in the same way. If they can get their issue addressed or diagnosed by their HVAC contractor without him having to schedule and physically travel to their site, they'd prefer him to solve/start solving the problem immediately. Time is money and the faster the tech can diagnose the problem, the faster he can get on fixing it.

              And yes, the prevalence of these systems means that many HVAC techs have the ability to turn off their customers' air conditioners/fridges. They don't use it maliciously, because that would be actual suicide for their business.

              ---

              Source: A close friend of mine runs an HVAC business (~8 employees) doing residential and commercial installs, repairs, and maintenance.

      • christophilus2 hours ago
        It seems like the sort of thing you’d do in-store and firewalled from the internet.
        • layer82 hours ago
          You’d have to pay competent local staff for that.
          • asdff2 hours ago
            How do you think grocery stores worked pre internet?
            • pixl9738 minutes ago
              You're going to have to convince VC and PE to give up the massive profits they're raking in.
            • ceejayozan hour ago
              Lots of things worked pre-internet that now rely on internet in ways that would be rather chaotic and messy to undo.
        • esikich2 hours ago
          The article didn't say they weren't.
        • lenerdenator2 hours ago
          "That, like, costs money, man. The accounting department said there was a 1-in-100 year chance of this happening if we didn't shell out, so we didn't." - the CEO, probably.
      • asdff2 hours ago
        That might justify a temperature probe in a dumb fridge. This smells of a salesman being here not an engineer though.
      • swarfield2 hours ago
        Makes sense but monitoring doesn't mean you have to have remote control of power.
        • ceejayoz2 hours ago
          "Utility has alerted us to an upcoming brown-out in a region impacting 40 stores. Cool everything down a few extra degrees in preparation."
          • mroban hour ago
            A phone call from the HVAC company and physical thermostat dial (in a locked cabinet to prevent incompetent/malicious employees tampering with it) seems a safer solution.
            • ceejayoz23 minutes ago
              Some grocery stores - and this is probably far more common in France - have no staff overnight.

              I think the cost/benefit equation is gonna collapse in the era of AIs exploting vulnerabilities at scale, but it's not like there's zero theoretical benefit of this capability on its own.

            • pixl9735 minutes ago
              And when it happens at 3 in the morning? And when those people are in a meeting 10 miles down the road?

              Take away the security aspect and centralized management is just so much easier and reliable. Humans suck at doing things they were supposed to.

      • codedokodean hour ago
        And centralized food destruction.
    • dfxm122 hours ago
      To monitor when something like this happens...
    • quickthrowman2 hours ago
      They aren’t fridges, it’s a grocery store. You have obviously been in one, there are cases with a dozen doors that all open to the same cold case.

      There is a ton of refrigerant piping, multiple condensing units, multiple evaporators, relays, and sensors connected to a controller that automates the refrigeration system. Not standalone refrigerators.

      I shouldn’t need to list the benefits of remotely monitoring a system that can cause tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if it fails.

      • forgetfreemanan hour ago
        Given the perfectly workable alternative of not having remote monitoring and simply having the store manager contact a repair tech on the exceedingly rare occasion that there is an issue, yeah I think actually you do need to justify the added complexity and expense of making this kind of mundane equipment internet accessible.
        • pixl9731 minutes ago
          These systems only exist because those economics were decided decades ago. Issues are not exceptions in systems like this. They are huge, complex, and interface with the public.

          The systems track all kinds of data and are decent at predicting failures before they get expensive.

        • SoftTalkeran hour ago
          From my experience in a restaurant, those large commercial rooftop refrigeration/freezer units need attention several times a year. It's rare that your home fridge would have trouble that often but commercial units are more complicated and in a harsher environment. And supermarket installations are probably even more complicated.
    • bigbadfeline2 hours ago
      Wait until people living north of Chicago learn that their thermostats are remotely controlled, when it's -20F outside.
    • ivewonyoung2 hours ago
      So you can get a notification when the milk expires.
    • 2 hours ago
      undefined
  • stackghost2 hours ago
    Please, let this be the stone that starts the avalanche of consumers rejecting smart apppliances.

    My fucking fume hood on my stove has Bluetooth, because Samsung just can’t help themselves apparently.

    • astrobe_2 hours ago
      I don't disagree, but having remote monitoring capabilities on a professional fridge is most likely not a hipster feature. Even mid-size supermarkets have dozens of them, with different temperature settings; they can fail, customers can block the doors, etc. You do want to receive an alert when something is wrong.
      • codedokodean hour ago
        Those devices should be connected to air-gapped local network and not to manufacturer.
        • pixl9730 minutes ago
          You don't seem to understand what these systems do at all. Air gapped takes about 80% of the usefulness away.
    • sdcfgy2 hours ago
      Why the fuck does a fume hood need that?!?!?!?!
      • palmotea2 hours ago
        > Why the fuck does a fume hood need that?!?!?!?!

        Why, so you can turn it on from your smartphone when you're out of town, of course!

        • djeastman hour ago
          "Oh, Honey, I think we forgot to turn the stove off!"

          "Well, I can't help you there, but I can turn off the fume hood from my phone!"

          "..."

        • url00an hour ago
          But it's Bluetooth so short range only? So it's not even good for that?
      • stackghost2 hours ago
        Exactly!
    • red_admiralan hour ago
      These are industrial fridges, the ones almost the size of a shipping container that you find in major supermarkets. But I agree with you that 'smart' home IoT is a shitshow.
    • asdff2 hours ago
      What compelled you to buy a stove hood with a cpu and blutooth radio?
      • stackghost2 hours ago
        It was there when we moved in.
        • asdff2 hours ago
          Would have been a red flag for me on the apartment tour haha. I once leased a place like this. Paid app needed to receive packaged mail. Never again.
    • brown9-22 hours ago
      Why would this time be any different than the last hundred times?
    • qurren2 hours ago
      Honestly I like smart appliances. For example, I have a home assistant integration that will sound an alarm if a stove burner is on but no person is detected in the room, and a handful of other similar safety-related conditions.

      But they don't need to be cloud-connected through some big corp's cloud. I want them local and firewalled, ideally.

      • EliRivers2 hours ago
        sound an alarm if a stove burner is on but no person is detected in the room

        Can you turn that off or do you just have to put up with the noise?

        • qurrenan hour ago
          It's a situation that shouldn't happen in the first place; house rule is someone should be around if the stove is on.

          Of course we can control it, it's all wired up via Home Assistant.

      • irishcoffee2 hours ago
        I prefer the freedom of putting a pot of water on to boil and walking off to take a leak, personally. That would drive me absolutely insane.
        • qurrenan hour ago
          1. We prefer to be safe, and shut the burner off while going to take a leak. It helps that we have a several thousand watt induction stove that boils pots of water in a few minutes, so there is no real need to parallelize boiling water with bathroom breaks.

          We specifically want to prevent scenarios like: you take a leak, the leak turns into a shitting session or a phone call, you forgot you left the burner on.

          2. Most of the time my wife and I make food together so if one person needs to take a leak the other one is around anyway.

          3. For long slow cooking, we have plenty of comfy seating in the kitchen/dining area where we can get work done while being in sight of pots.

          4. We have 2 pets we'd need to locate in an emergency, and so we tend to put electrical and fire safety higher than most people.

  • robthebrew6 hours ago
    TomsHardware hit? I'm getting spinning beachballs on this link
    • pjmlp5 hours ago
      All Future sites are junk now, and I imagine even with subscription they aren't much better.
  • lornmorkse5 hours ago
    Wait until they figure out they’re all filled with butane as a refrigerant thanks to global warming.
  • hk13376 hours ago
    “Suck it, Jin-Yang!”
  • red_admiralan hour ago
    [dead]
  • williethegate6 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • 6 hours ago
    undefined
  • srik2 hours ago
    These incidents will bring back the appeal for dumb appliances, hopefully.
    • forgetfreemanan hour ago
      There's a marketing issue here that would need to be addressed first, namely the phrase "dumb appliance". That's a marketing slur that was intentionally propagated by manufacturers and it's bullshit. Few things seem more obviously stupid than the added complexity, expense, and security concerns associated with "smart appliances" especially given none of the features touted are critical to the appliance performing it's stated function.
  • jsrozner2 hours ago
    Instead of climate change, let's call it "cyber change"...the rise of hacks of all kinds facilitated by AI