120 pointsby softwaredoug3 hours ago8 comments
  • sn0n20 minutes ago
    I saw Jev and without understanding it said to myself, “I can build that!” And brainstormed some weird Alex trebek jeopardy generator I called trebek, a bun ran typescript app that you give it an input, it decides if it’s a category, question or answer then generates what’s missing. Trained a SQLite-vec database on the English language for a few days with a small qwen embedding model to add vec embeds to the db then ripped the cord on the embeddings before I started feeding my llm the proper specs for Jev and now i have a cool jeopardy generator that now doubles as a Jev clone classifier with a custom v1 endpoint for system 0 or whatever it is. Level understanding here, fun experiment though ^>^ and produces useful outputs
  • howunfortunate3 hours ago
    As an MLE who has been failing to get anyone interested in classifiers for many years, the hype around Jev makes me scream internally.

    Yes, I get that a zero-shot classifier is more convenient than the traditional kind, it's very cool. Kind of. But then again plain LLMs have been perfectly cheap and serviceable as zero-shot classifiers for quite some time now, so again I'm back to my internal screaming.

    • firasd2 hours ago
      I think part of what made Jev catch on is that the API is like an if(...) or switch statement

      People are just so used to the chat style APIs that they didn't even consider doing things like sending a bunch of emojis to a chat model and then asking for the optimal one in this context etc. Also chat models are pricier for the same behavior and can also output something random like a refusal

      But yeah ironically I think in the initial breakthrough LLM paper on GPT-3 in 2020 some of the multiple choice questions were answered by comparing token probabilities of specific continuations rather than fill in the blank

      • howunfortunate2 hours ago
        You know, it's a good point.

        Maybe I should have spent less time pitching to PMs and more time pitching ground up to devs, who have the right foundation to intuitively understand the usefulness.

    • jofzar2 hours ago
      > But then again plain LLMs have been perfectly cheap and serviceable as zero-shot classifiers for quite some time now, so again I'm back to my internal screaming.

      It's the scale of "perfectly cheap", jev (specifically) is so dirt cheap and fast that you can throw it at things that should not be justifiable in the past and you barely have to do any work other then quick testing.

      • jofzar14 minutes ago
        I will also say, not having to get a team to build this for you, having to get business justification from your team for that teams hours, then spending time revising and testing that out and then you have to "prove" that it's worth having in your feature as a AI cost

        Versus

        "Let's put jev here and see how it works, if it works, then fantastic let's build a business case"

    • 31 minutes ago
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    • laybakan hour ago
      on the bright side, maybe this zero-shot classifier wave could be the back bone for more specialized classifiers (with more mindful selection of data and training)
    • esafakan hour ago
      Jev is classification for normies. Look ma, no training.
    • win311fwgan hour ago
      > But then again plain LLMs have been perfectly cheap and serviceable as zero-shot classifiers for quite some time now

      I'm no prompt engineer, but I've found them to be too slow any time I wanted to use them that way. I have never tried Jev, but apparently it is supposed to be fast, so it seems like, according to the marketing, it could become usable where LLMs haven't been.

    • copperx2 hours ago
      I want to share the rage. Can you expound on what makes you scream?
      • howunfortunate2 hours ago
        Idk, imagine you worked on Skype's B2B sales team for years and then COVID happens and Zoom blows up.

        Is it a better thing? Yeah. Does it affect me in any tangible way? No.

        But come on, really people? All you needed was like one tiny bell & whistle to take this from nothing to the hottest thing of all time?

        • JMKH42an hour ago
          I bet the timing was the key, people in the last year have been furiously building things that use LLMs as an API and as we work on this stuff we have systems with N LLM steps and M of them are frustrating because you want a specific choice picked or list of things ranked and sometimes the llm will just output something else entirely!

          So along comes this thing you can graft in that is more reliable, faster, and cheaper for that, and I get it immediately.

          A year ago I'd be like "kinda cool but what it for?"

    • BoorishBearsan hour ago
      Maybe instead of screaming you can take this as a chance to level up your engineering.

      Good engineers don't treat approach as A == B or even A like B, when extremely integral parts of their applications differ.

      Zero-shot isn't just "more convenient", in a low data regime: it's the only workable solution, and 100x so if your plan involves the acornym "BERT" (because even the largest of those models has the world knowledge of a fart to draw priors from)

      Better ergonomics while being faster and cheaper as the existing things really is enough to justify callling what you've done a new thing, in a world of finite resources and time. It's actually making me scream how many people don't get that.

      • howunfortunate30 minutes ago
        > in a low data regime: it's the only workable solution

        Low data regimes no longer exist in the age of LLMs, one can trivially generate a training and eval set and distill a good classifier on any domain within a day.

        But I do acknowledge zero-shot is more convenient. Personally I don't think Jev has any moat so I won't bother with their model specifically, but yes I do anticipate using this type of thing more in the future.

    • dominotwan hour ago
      > As an MLE

      Yea but those models you were building were lame and inaccessible to play with for common devs.

      Just because they have the same api doesnt mean you were building the same thing.

  • ford41 minutes ago
    These are neat - and the source of the many Jev clones we've seen. I think their recent funding round is in part because of their algorithms/data. It remains to be seen if that's a big enough edge to be worth 1 billion+ dollars
  • sva_an hour ago
    Does someone have examples of interesting stuff that has been built utilizing Jev/decision models? The way this is hyped up surely there must be some good stuff?
    • JLO6415 minutes ago
      Not in a serious manner but I created a testing harness for a Nintendo 3DS game I'm making that uses the OpenAI Decisions API. The main advantage is the speed (~2-300ms per input) which I really need for this purpose.
    • nicoan hour ago
      Not with Jev, but you can use classifiers for a lot of use cases, here’s a few: https://playground.jeffyclassify.com/
  • nicoan hour ago
    This is very cool. If you are looking for something similar but more lightweight, that you can run (and train) on CPU, try out Jeffy: https://jeffyclassify.com/

    On GitHub: https://github.com/nicobrenner/jeffy

    • mrkn1an hour ago
      Cool project too. If you are looking for a 500MB instead of gigabytes, with evals on Jevbench that you can run fast on CPU check out gutsy.

      https://github.com/kouhxp/gutsy

      • nico13 minutes ago
        Very cool, thank you for sharing

        The banking77 numbers called my attention. Using a local classifier you can get 94%+ accuracy: https://playground.jeffyclassify.com/#model/banking77

        I think Jev-like models are amazing for exploration and finding the right workflows, but the moment you have fixed classification tasks, it’s often more efficient to use an adhoc classifier, which you can quickly and easily train on CPU with not that much data (you can get an email classifier to 95% accuracy/f1 with 50-100 emails)

  • demibabs2 hours ago
    Is simply changing the temperature so that the model appears calibrated over a particular benchmark after the fact “allowed”? Feels p-hacking esque.
    • JMKH42an hour ago
      if it works it works! as long as the test set is reasonably large and diverse its better than nothing. You could characterize how robust it is by throwing dozens of different types of work at it and see how much the confidence varies
  • ursaguild2 hours ago
    This is really cool to see. Being able to play the token generation was awesome. Amazing job with breaking down how to think about these models. This made the idea of Jev/decision models really easy to grasp for me. The idea of calibrating the model was helpful. I thought this was a great overview.
  • bellajbadr3 hours ago
    Is this only about getting fix json output?