179 pointsby JumpCrisscross6 hours ago19 comments
  • AlbinoDrought6 minutes ago
    The best I got:

    Discretionary Review (Developer): I built 4,147 homes in San Francisco, 2015 to 2031. Grade A, "Builder of Some Things". Survived all eight investor reviews. 16 hearings, 3 appeals, 4 lawsuits. The city needed 82,069.

  • peri-cl2 hours ago
    Reminds me of that Factorio joke mod which adds bureaucracy-processing as a recipe tree. Assemblers start to shut down if you don't process paperwork fast enough. IIRC, it had biters following the player around in queues to give them complaint forms.
  • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
    My suspicion is San Francisco would love a Beijing-style hukou system. That lets it lock housing (and thus the built character of the city) and control immigration which in turn should result in stable housing prices provided units don't go out of use or residents don't have too many children.
    • patatero5 minutes ago
      That system leads to an oversupply of single men in rural areas and single women in big cities.
    • bobthepanda25 minutes ago
      Beijing has a substantially worse median price to income ratio, though
  • mrhyyyyde3 hours ago
    Whoever made this, I love you and we should be friends.
  • minimaxa2 hours ago
    Love the idea!

    I started something similar as a meme game, but I'm just too busy to keep working on it: Data centre slumlord - https://binary-mirror.itch.io/data-centre-slumlord

  • treebeard9014 hours ago
    It does have the blue angels flying over the city at one point
  • nico4 hours ago
    Took me back to sim farm. The aesthetics are awesome
  • TeMPOraL3 hours ago
    The Nuclear option is an interesting choice the game has locked up.
  • jwsteigerwaltan hour ago
    You win by not playing…
  • doginasuit3 hours ago
    I'm a unclear on what high "The Neighborhood" scores mean in the right panel before approving the project, is it good or bad?
  • thekuanysh3 hours ago
    what a throwback feel, nicely done
  • deadbabe4 hours ago
    I imagined something more like a sim city clone where every time you try to put down a building or zone, it’s refused with a pop up message saying why. Let me prompt that out brb
  • 3 hours ago
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  • SubiculumCode2 hours ago
    Davis, CA. lol
    • SubiculumCode2 hours ago
      Some context, because it is definitely an insider joke.

      Davis had a long and contentious civic debate on whether or not Target should be allowed to build a store in Davis, eventually Davis held a city wide vote on the matter, which did pass [1].

      Davis voters reject Measure V, spiking plans to build Village Farms housing [2].

      Just a couple of examples where growth that most cities would approve without thought became a city wide civic issue that the community actually voted on.

      [1] https://localwiki.org/davis/Target/History [2] https://www.abridged.org/news/davis-measure-v-election-updat...

  • thrance4 hours ago
    Line at the end of the in-game "rulebook":

    > Every rule, vote count and case in this game is drawn from the public record. Sources are in docs/research/ in the project folder. Neighborhood politics scores and the economics are simplified for play.

    Nice, I'm happy to hear that, Claude. This kind of silly game is supposed to help you understand a complex issue in a fun way. But this is missing the plot entirely. Why is this so overwhelmingly complex? Why would I spend time learning this ugly, convoluted and verbose UI? Who is this for??

    EDIT: I'll link to an example of what I think this game should have been: https://research.wmz.ninja/projects/phd/index.html

    A game made with intent, that is easy to pick up, respects its player's time, and makes its point effectively.

    • zugi2 hours ago
      > Why is this so overwhelmingly complex? Why would I spend time learning this ugly, convoluted and verbose UI?

      My guess is that's the point - now you understand how San Francisco property developers feel.

    • roenxi3 hours ago
      This runs into the reality that the game maker knows who his target audience is, but you don't. If he wants to make a spreadsheet simulator or something targeted at people who like complex interfaces he can do that. I point at ASCII-UI Dwarf Fortress, one of the great games of this century, as evidence that a game does not need to be accessible to be true art.

      It is frustrating to be excluded when a game developer builds a game that looks interesting but targets a niche you don't fit in.

      Also those https://research.wmz.ninja/projects/phd/index.html style games are a bit vapid. At any moment a person has more than a handful of choices and the simplification abstracts away the important ones, like ranking what ideas are important or changing strategies for idea generation in this one.

      • thrancean hour ago
        Except Dwarf Fortress is an actual game, and I've sunk a lot of hours in it. Same with the city builders TFA is trying to mimick.

        > Also those https://research.wmz.ninja/projects/phd/index.html style games are a bit vapid.

        I agree, but please try to engage with what I'm saying. Both the PhD game and TFA are made with the goal of teaching an issue to a broader audience. Do you think TFA is an effective tool of communication? Don't you think its messaging could have been better conveyed had it been designed with more intent, less focused on piling on feature after feature for a game that isn't designed to be replayed more than once?

        Both TFA and the PhD game should be considered "educational", people won't come back to those again and again because of how fun they are. They're designed to appear in HN feed, be played once, learn maybe a thing or two in an amusing way, and never be opened again. Do you understand now why I find this complexity so counter-productive? It's fine for a game to be complex, if it's designed for players that will sink hundreds of hours into them. It's not fine for a silly project to demand the same learning effort from its players.

        > This runs into the reality that the game maker knows who his target audience is, but you don't.

        Have you considered that TFA was vibe-coded, and maybe the "game maker" hasn't put much thought into who his target audience could be, like, at all, and just asked Claude to make a game about NIMBYism?

        • JumpCrisscross41 minutes ago
          > the PhD game and TFA are made with the goal of teaching

          The PhD game came across as a blog post masquerading as a game. The city-building one was fun even if you ignore the lessons it's teaching. (You don't have to read the news articles. They're cleverly written, however, and so sort of fun to.)

        • roenxian hour ago
          > Both the PhD game and TFA are made with the goal of teaching an issue to a broader audience.

          I mean, are? It looks like it might be trying to create a San Francisco housing simulator. Simulators aren't necessarily tools of education. That's why I picked DF as a comparison - it is a Moria siumulator, but it isn't supposed to educate its players on the nature of Tolkien. It is more about exploring a complex environment.

          And the PhD game doesn't look like it is going to teach anyone anything. It reads to me like some guy blowing off steam without having much of substance to say. Which is also fine, it just isn't much of an educational journey.

          You're implicitly assuming that you have determined the target audience and goal of the game. And while you might be accurate, you might also be inaccurate. There is a decent chance that the target audience is people who look at this and think "ooh, cool". It is great fun to criticise games but claiming that a game is in the wrong genre altogether is just a bit much for me today. If you don't like this genre that is cool, but the game maker might just be doing his own thing and having fun.

          > Have you considered that TFA was vibe-coded, and maybe the "game maker" hasn't put much thought into who his target audience could be, like, at all, and just asked Claude to make a game about NIMBYism?

          His target audience could be himself, in which case he's probably got a deep understanding of who they are and whether they enjoy the game.

    • rjh294 hours ago
      > Who is this for??

      Like most vibe coded projects, it is for the person who created it. And usually only them.

      • deadbabe4 hours ago
        These people should, instead of posting the game, just post a video of them playing through the game, as most people have no interest in playing other’s slop but may just be curious to watch someone play and provide comedic value.
        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          ...I enjoyed playing it. It's silly. But it's in a similar category as "Papers, Please." It's not like it's stressful, there is just a bunch of random diabolus ex nihilo crap flying at you, which isn't particularly unusual in a game.
        • 4 hours ago
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    • howunfortunate4 hours ago
      It's a throwaway joke about NIMBYism, not a triple-A blockbuster production.
      • thrance4 hours ago
        You've completely missed what my comment was trying to convey. If it's throwaway, why is it so damn complex to play? I've seen AAA games with less features.
        • howunfortunate4 hours ago
          It's easier to make a complex UI than a simple one!
          • thrance4 hours ago
            For equal feature sets, sure. But what I'm saying, and what you also missed, is that this game should have never been this complex in the first place. This complexity is doing a huge disservice to the message it's trying to convey.
        • phoghed3 hours ago
          Convey it better then
        • mulmen4 hours ago
          But is the UI harder to use than building housing in San Francisco?
    • karl114 hours ago
      I think that may be exactly the point.
      • thrance4 hours ago
        No, I do not think fighting the UI is part of the point this game is trying to make. I'll give a good example of what such a game should be: https://research.wmz.ninja/projects/phd/index.html

        There's no reason a "housing crisis" game couldn't have been done like that, with simple choices and immediate reactions. A game that respects the player's time, is easy to pick up and makes the point effectively.

        • zdragnar4 hours ago
          Any simplification hides real problems and takes away from the point. Even your desire for simple choices and immediate reactions elides the fact that not every policy decision has visible short term effects. Some are only visibly beneficial or harmful in the long run, and may not end up that way depending on other decisions.
          • thrance4 hours ago
            Do the simplifications in the PhD game (https://research.wmz.ninja/projects/phd/index.html) take away from the point that finishing a PhD is pretty freaking hard? I think not!
            • Apocryphon3 hours ago
              That game is more of an idle / clicker game, and while I quite enjoyed the one from a few months ago about being a SWE in SF, the shtick wears thin quickly especially if you’re not in the niche that identifies with all the in-jokes.
              • Z_I_F_F2 hours ago
                link to the SWE one?
        • zbentleyan hour ago
          If the thesis of the game is that there's too much paperwork and regulatory burden, a simpler game would have to just tell the player "there's too much paperwork". This game--whether you liked it or not--is a lot more effective by showing you. You are the (simplified) bureaucrat, not a choose-your-own-adventure player being told that the bureaucracy is dense.

          I really do think that complexity and UI obtuseness was implemented as commentary, not as a mistake.

    • jkestner4 hours ago
      Eh, your example is a different kind of game. Not into linear choose-your-own-adventure games myself. I think the UI of this one accurately models the many moving parts and forces in the process it's simulating, and I didn't have a problem picking it up though I skipped the tutorial. It has a sense of humor (read the speaker comments at meetings, and the news articles), and hits you with the real world outcome each development is based on. Made an impact on me.
    • pluc4 hours ago
      "I didn't understand this, so I had an AI make this so that you couldn't understand it too"
    • zer00eyz2 hours ago
      > Why would I spend time learning this ugly, convoluted and verbose UI? Who is this for??

      Tell me you never played the old TUI dwarf fortress without telling me.

      • thrancean hour ago
        Well, you should seek a better tell because I've played ASCII Dwarf Fortress quite a bit. Re-read my comments, I only have an issue with TFA's complexity, in the context of it being a throwaway educational game. It shouldn't require as much involvement from the player as it currently does. And certainly, it shouldn't even occur to people to compare it to Dwarf Fortress, which happened twice already.
  • artemonsteran hour ago
    how do you complete a tutorial when you cant mute this fucking music
    • jandrese38 minutes ago
      There is a button on the top right to turn off the music.
  • netsharc4 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • whaleofatw20223 hours ago
      Regarding the comments about the jargon file...

      Something definitely changed around the dot com crash. The channels I slummed around in of EFNet went from excited hacker archetypes to the same people doing jobs I was am in retrospect surprised about [0]

      [0] - Im general, emulator devs working for bigger corporations. But most specifically one that wound up doing stuff around customs intrediction tech, major shift from their pre emulation work.

    • __MatrixMan__4 hours ago
      Money destroys everything it touches eventually.
  • sixothree3 hours ago
    I play games like Civilization and we get these tech trees and policy trees and such. And I can never help but wonder what it would be like to play these when the people of the territory act like Americans. You try to incentivize future technology and they push back. You try and prioritize education and they push back. There is always division and infighting.

    Regardless, I don't think it would actually make the game more fun.

    • whaleofatw20223 hours ago
      So, "If only you could talk to the monsters" but at the level of this genre?
    • howunfortunate2 hours ago
      I mean that's kinda how Civ works already. Some civs get bonuses for education & research, others in combat, etc, and focusing on the things incompatible with your civ will "punish" you.

      It sounds like you just don't agree with how they've implemented America lol.

    • thaumasiotes3 hours ago
      What would prioritizing education mean in Civilization? The game's model is fairly simple:

      1. There are three resources: food, industrial production, and commercial activity;

      2. As the player, you can divide commercial activity between three categories: research, state revenue, and local "luxuries", which in this context just means tax relief;

      3. Scientific progress occurs when you've produced enough research to learn a new technology;

      4. The only appearance of "education" anywhere in the game is that there is an expensive building called a "university" that increases local production of research. (The predecessor building with the same effect at a lower cost is the "library".)

      On the other hand, "there is always division and infighting" is one of the most important and fundamental mechanics in the game; if your city grows beyond a quite small population cap, new citizens are automatically unhappy and will shut down the whole city unless pacified somehow.

      • sixothree2 hours ago
        I think you missed the point. I was pretty clear about not focusing on Civ specifically.
    • skinfaxi3 hours ago
      Is this flamebait or what is your intention?

      Why call out Americans like that? Do you think America is some homogenous entity?

      • sixothree2 hours ago
        Because I don't know enough about the internal divisions in other countries. But I can tell you Americans will fight progress at every turn.
        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          > Americans will fight progress at every turn

          On one hand, we have opposition to industrialization and the green revolution.

          On the other hand, we have Greenwich Village pushing back on being razed for a highway.

          Defining "progress" is fundamentally a value judgement. In one era, undeveloped land was opportunity for progress. Today, turning developed land into parks can be seen the same way.

  • hyperhello4 hours ago
    You know, if an old city with a natural boundary doesn’t think you should build a bunch of profitable crap in it, maybe you could take the hint and stop acting like you’re bringing Jesus to them. San Francisco’s seen the conquistadors. In fact, many of the streets in the Sunset are named after them.
    • JumpCrisscross4 hours ago
      > maybe you could take the hint

      Locked supply. Affordable housing. Growing standards of living (or population). Pick two.

      If you lock supply and want taxes and wages to grow, you're choosing unaffordable housing. That's San Francisco's current policy choice. Over decades, it filters the poor to San Francisco's "outer boroughs" or onto its streets.

      For what it's worth, my friends who lived in San Francisco "took the hint" and moved out when they chose to have kids. They didn't sell their place, however, since the above policy mix together with California's property-tax system strongly disincentivizes that.

    • margalabargala3 hours ago
      That's of course an option too.

      I haven't played OP's game but hopefully it accurately models the plummetting quality of life and rampant homelessness created by doing what you describe in the real world.

    • sebzim45003 hours ago
      Or you could look at the massive number of homeless people and take the hint yourself
    • howunfortunate4 hours ago
      • hyperhello3 hours ago
        I have absolutely no idea what that means related to my comment, but I’m really enjoying seeing my opinions getting roasted for being out of touch.
    • Bratmon4 hours ago
      Yeah, how DARE people under 40 want somewhere to live!
      • gchamonlive4 hours ago
        I remember before COVID I was debating with a friend of mine whether or not private property is justifiable and it's ironic that the discussion was made obsolete by nobody being able to afford private property anymore
        • Andrex3 hours ago
          The justification of private property is that we don't have a proven and workable alternative at a civilizational scale.
          • 3 hours ago
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          • crooked-van hour ago
            Singapore is a pretty good example of an alternative.
            • s1artibartfastan hour ago
              Someone still builds housing in Singapore. Can't live in it if you dont build it.
    • rubicon332 hours ago
      let me guess, homeowner in SF?
    • bobthepanda4 hours ago
      I mean, stopping housing construction hasn’t stopped the new money from pushing out the old soul. Given the US enshrines the free movement of people in the Constitution, it’s make room or have someone outbid you for yours.
      • scrame4 hours ago
        Yes, lets turn everywhere into the shitty place we grew up in.
        • bobthepanda4 hours ago
          It is possible to grow in a pleasant way without mallification, seems like a lot of projecting. And it’s not like the current approach is preventing that; insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
          • 3 hours ago
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