So unless someone else picks up development, Deno will no longer be supported.
Companies went all-in in a barely established niche player with 1/100 the traction, instead of sticking with Node, and even better an LTS Node, and are now surprised?
Do they also do their front-end in Dart?
https://nodejs.org/api/permissions.html - since v20 - Apr 17, 2023
https://nodejs.org/learn/typescript/run-natively - stable and without a flag since v22.18.0 - which sometime after Apr 24, 2024 which was the v22.0.0 release
https://nodejs.org/api/single-executable-applications.html - Added in: v19.7.0, v18.16.0 but still in Active Development (not stable yet) - 2022
For reference, Deno was released in 2020 with all of these features from the start.
Feels like it always take some healthy competition for Node to make big strides like this. Like the whole io.js fork thing a long while ago.
How well designed the initial versions of TypeScript were can be seen by how smoothly later versions were able to build on them, and even after so many major improvements the language has barely a wart (enums probably being the only one).
built-in permission system for filesystems and etc
just forbid writing to important folders like ~/.ssh
Wait till you hear about this thing called Bun.
Though with a tiny core team and almost carte blanche AI credits, they are a lot leaner.
Unfortunately Node still can't do something like this out of the box (AFAIK at least):
import { Bla } from "npm:bla@^5";
Deno also has a builtin TS type checker, linter, formatter, test runner with coverage support, package manager, language server etc etc... In node these are all separate (and often 3rd-party) tools.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bun is abandoned at some point as well.
(Which is why I am happy to see new runtimes but never care enough to seriously use or adopt them.)
The one silver lining here is that Deno had already increased their node/npm compatibility. Migrating off of the jsr ecosystem and back to npm is going to be less painful than one might imagine. I expect present LLMs to be sufficiently good at the task, for example.
Deno/Bun see the picture better than I do, and they decided it was the right time for an acquihire.
It reminds me of game engines. If you want to make a game engine, there's nothing wrong with that, but you should acknowledge that you're building a game engine, not a game--or rather, if your goal is to make a game, starting by making a game engine probably isn't optimal.
It's the same for Bun. It's clear that they wanted to build a JavaScript runtime, and also they wanted to use Zig. They are doing both of these things, but when push comes to shove, their desire to use Zig was more important than their desire to make a JavaScript runtime, I believe.
For my projects, I am used to maintaining package manager configuration, bundlers, linters etc.
So I never had much interest in looking into benefits of Deno or bun.
However I now work with software that requires PQC resistance and node's native ML-KEM and ML-DSA abilities made me switch back. Also I'm not particularly an Anthropic fan so that was also a separate nail in its coffin for me.
Node at least picked up --run, TS stripping support, .env loading, watch mode, and sqlite (plus some other things I'm probably forgetting) since Deno started so at least theres that.
Random example: I've worked with many frontend developers who seemed to believe listing dependencies in package.json in devDependencies instead of 'dependencies' controls what ends up in the production bundle.
I'm under the impression few understand that this is only a cosmetic distinction unless you use the package manager's --omit=dev or --production flags during install.
What is included in the production bundle is of course determined by the bundler's dependency-graph reachability from the entry point.
For people who never configured these tools themselves, it's probably difficult to understand how the modern web stack works.
However, nowadays you can probably have AI explain it to you well enough while it fixes the issues.
It works the same way you use a bundler instead of assembling your own and so on and so forth down the tree. The farther down the tree, the less focus you should give your understanding to, but that's not an excuse for giving no understanding below the first layer.
> I've worked with many frontend developers who seemed to believe listing dependencies in package.json in devDependencies instead of 'dependencies' controls what ends up in the production bundle.
If so many believe that it’s how it should work, maybe it just should work that way. Principle of least surprise and all that.
They should hire a few devs to develop it then.
Then I read that paragraph, and it made more sense that they're acquihiring + killing.
FWIW both Ryan and Kenton are very transparent in person, in public, and online over their professional careers. They will and do openly change their minds based on new information and opportunities as time goes along. Both are now founders of open source projects acquired by Cloudflare for the technical architecture talents seeing a future that they would like to build.
unless cloudflare's CEO is a friend of cloudflare people, so just want to financially them bail out...
...why acquire and kill? cloudflare can have more outreach and reputation by keeping deno alive
Aquihiring is a time-tested strategy to build out a team. The Deno folks likely have a bunch of experience that Cloudflare is well placed to make use of
Unless you dangle HEFTY stock options with incremental maturity dates, nothing is else is keeping them from leaving.
That is indeed how this whole thing works. I used to work with several folks who were kicking around FAANG for 4 years till their acquisition stock fully vested
When you consider how much time/money it takes to hire an experienced engineer, and how quickly they are liable to jump to the competition, acquiring an existing team of experienced engineers and tying them with the golden handcuffs is not a bad deal
I don't really know anything about that area, but didn't Facebook get in some trouble for purchasing Instagram in part due to them being competition.
Surely buying a company out only to close their main offering is defined as anti-competitive?
But also US anti-trust laws at the federal level have always relied on a strong FCC, FTC, and US Attorney General's Office to execute, all of which are currently neutered and/or understaffed under the current administration (and may take years to recover even in the best case scenarios). The US has decided it is a season for trusts and monopolies.
(See the mergers of Paramount and WB into Skydance consolidating 200+ combined years of movie history into a single monopoly under the Oracle nepobaby and almost directly undoing/mocking one of the largest and oldest anti-trust cases which was US v. Paramount Studios which set precedents for how large a movie studio could grow that lasted almost 100 years.)
(There might be something the state of California could do, but I don't know how much they want to get involved.)
I think if Cloudflare and Google merged, it still wouldn't be a monopoly because of AWS (and many others).
IMHO, it shouldn't be allowed.
Deno built celld, which implements the Workers and Durable Objects programming model with self-hosting in mind. Cloudflare says its own distributed infrastructure is too complicated for straightforward self-hosting, and it hadn’t successfully solved that problem. For customers who might be reluctant to commit to being locked in to Cloudflare’s infrastructure, having a rock solid self-hosted alternative reduces that reluctance.
This is a weird strategy to stake future IP value on in the age of AI. With competent and fully qualified team, anyone should be able to reverse engineer this idea and build a roadmap for their own implementation. Especially in the world of open source.
At the end of the day, great engineers armed with great tools are going to outperform anyone who just has the great tools.
Phrased as it being merged into the existing, but I can't help but fret a bit. Is cloudflare willing to let their own core compute product be something available to the world? Absolutely sick wins if so. But I worry celld pretty reasonably seen as a threat.
"By bringing celld and workerd together, we want it to be radically easy to build and operate distributed applications on your own infrastructure."
It does not appear they are close sourcing it. He mentions workerd is open source. Roadmap needs better communication but it appears people will be able to switch to new merged OSS version. It's just not well defined what it looks like yet.
I'm sure they'll have a migration path to the cloudflare platform in 12 month.
From what is likely going to happen is that Deno will be donated to the Linux Foundation to avoid this.
But I stopped because I saw this coming the moment they changed course and started putting npm compatibility as a priority. Deno’s surface area went from beautifully simple to very bloated. I think they felt the pressure of VC funding and just gave up on rebuilding Node from first principles.
The silver lining is that early Deno was so good that Node copied some of its features. So at least we have a better Node now.
What kind of business move is this for Cloudflare? celld is a more complete Cloudflare-at-home runtime than current workerd. What does Cloudflare stand to gain from commodizing Workers?
I'll say that although I'm not really a Cloudflare Workers user, I've been eyeing workerd and celld with interest. The idea of a complete backend in a box appeals to me (see also: PocketBase, Algernon). At the same time, the acquisition means that another company won't acquire Deno for celld.
If you live in Elixir land, there's this repo from the Phoenix team, which is quite good. It has pluggable storage, and EKV (https://github.com/chrismccord/ekv) is supported as "batteries include" type storage adapter.
Things don’t always shake out as you plan
I understand your sentiment of justifying not being "old". but you gotta bring up "legacy code".
"Working Effectively with Legacy Code" defines legacy code as code without tests thus hard to change it easily or with confidence.
So either @TheGuardian is discussing about the age of software relative to his/her perspective or confused "legacy code" without understanding deno code base.
It's relative measurement. When you are 9th grader, even a freshman college student feels way older.
But as you are in your 30s, you feel less of difference.
Same thing here, How do you define Windows and Emacs being "old"? For those who's been using it for decades, not as old as Voyager software. For those who lived through those times, Windows and Emacs feels younger.
See where I am going with it?
---
If you have a nephew or a kid, they will say you are "old". But your parents will consider you "young" for the rest of their lives.
I’m taking the stance that no news is bad news here. If it was good, people would be doing Resume Driven Dev with deno and we would be buried in those articles. Alas.
Well node and bun sought to solve the same problems after Deno demonstrated a path. They got to learn from Deno's mistakes as well.
I've been following celld since it was announced. Bootstrapping both durability and coordination off object storage simplifies so many things for self-hosting. (Yes, ironic that self-hosting has a cloud dependency, but in this case I think justified because S3 has become a widely supported protocol that you can run yourself too).
Will be curious to see the details on exactly how that model makes it into workerd.
I think people are focusing on it because if you've built your business on Deno, then the "Deno will have no support in 13 months time" is a bit of an existential risk, and will be a huge time-sink for your team. So it's far more interesting to most of the people reading this page on HN, because HN is full of people who are first-adopters.
Deno's ability to import directly from a package registry or even git repo in a standalone TS script without requiring a package.json or similar 'meta-data' file was actually really nice for shell scripting stuff. AFAIK node.js still can't do anything similar?
of course i’m only talking about deno, the technology not deno, the cloud service.
Bad news, sorry, the article says:
> We will support the Deno runtime for another year with monthly releases containing bug fixes and security updates. After that year we will end our development of the Deno runtime.
Sounds like Celld will live on within workerd, Deno is over.
From TFA: We will support the Deno runtime for another year with monthly releases containing bug fixes and security updates. After that year we will end our development of the Deno runtime.
Also worth calling out that if you want to disrupt a major player, you need to be 10x better, not just 2x.
Either way, congrats team. Hope you going on to build something great at Cloudflare.
The design and architecture is extremely minimal to the point that all of it can be explained on a single A4 page with a 14pt font including D1 + Durable objects. And I hope that it stays that way.
It has all the primitives that you can wish for to build a software system on top of it be it queues, long running jobs, workflows, pipelines, email handlers, cron jobs and even built in AI models ready for you to be invoked.
ATM - it is extremely cheap, reliable, simpler and more capable than anything out there. Deno itself had very little scope anyway because almost no developer tooling is sellable in this environment even more so post AI. Therefore, it is going to accelerate the Cloudflare platform to be the best in class and hopefully not complex and bloated.
Finally, the next step of forking Node is up for grabs:
Node > Deno > Done (anyone?)
Also Deno was starting to try to increase revenue with stuff like Deno Deploy. If Deno did succeed, they would be a direct competitor with Cloudflare Workers
With Bun I think it was basically a marketing ploy. To show that it can be developed by AI and still useful
I also wish they expanded jurisdiction more. I worked at companies that couldn't use Cloudflare because of specific location requirements in contracts
If they bought Neon that'd be a coup.
edit: my reaction was too soon, it seems like they will be explicitly working on making workerd an open source self hostable runtime
No indication cloudflare would pursue that yet that I see.
I know Node is boring but it's not going anywhere.
What's happening to JS platforms? I thought Deno has a much better approach to building a platform.
So what's the story with JSR sticking around then? Does it already see meaningful use among people using Workers, or do they just really want an escape hatch in case we see more long-term issues with GitHub and NPM?
And does it at least mean the stdlib will see continued development?
I liked its scoring system for packages and "make the Typescript docs a public part of the package page" and "focus entirely on ESM-first/ESM-only packages". None of that npm does today, so JSR is still the best way I know to find modern and up-to-date/clean packages versus npm just has a nasty swamp of things still in CommonJS for no reason or that will never get upgraded out of CommonJS because the original maintainers are long gone.
You should choose Node.js unless you have a good reason to use something else. This is what everyone uses, and it is used widely enough that it's in the same position as Java, i.e. it will be supported forever.
Also the other runtimes only offer incremental improvements.
Regarding the blogposts, you don't read a lot about Node.js because it is mature software and there isn't a lot of drama or new things to talk about.
It unfortunately has other implications, ts-loader (used by webpack) for example is not compatible with the new Go crap so you need to do weird pinning down to v6 to get your builds working again [1].
As near as I can see, it isn't anything fundamental to the rewrite, it's just a transitional phase, though.
And when you can't manage to coordinate with an ecosystem dependency as large as webpack before the migration to make sure nothing breaks... my suspicion is utter incompetence and gross misuse of AI.
Deno was never going to be a thing anyways.
Deno has been successful, technically better and a respectably run project. I expect it may survive in the form of modular runtime and associated features.
NodeJS for the runtime if it's not in a browser, webpack for bundling. For the frontend stack, either React if you're in for a full application or, fuck it, good old jQuery if you don't want to do type document.queryXXX all the time. You'll find a ton of developers and coding bootcamp graduates to deal with all of that, and the AI agents should all be trained well enough on them.
Everything else is just a recipe for getting rug-pulled or being the bananaware customer responsible for the ripening.
For example it doesn't support enums.
Bun and Deno do the real thing.
I know the runtime is in trouble, but i'm not as worried tbh b/c the principles deno championed are going to keep going.
Its no longer gonna be supported after 1 year
In that case Deno is not joining cloudflare, it's got eaten.
I invested a lot and use deno everywhere. Can't trust anything these days.
Lets fork it into opendeno. I like to have an all-in-one swiss army knife tool.
will they continue that work ?
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49977056
otherwise this is a proper acquisition. t
I've been using deno for years and built some nontrivial services in it. When deno added support for npm packages, the early days were pretty rough. I ran into lots of issues with packages and spent a lot of time reading random github issue threads. It's been pretty smooth sailing for the last year or so though.
At least I can use ai to help migrate off of deno.
create a plan to implement a javascript runtime similar to {deno,bun,node.js,whatever} in {Rust,C++,ASM,Go,Fortran} language, use subagents @ max effort, keep building until you're done, follow instructions according to INSTRUCTIONS.md
Wait a day and you're done.
CF has its own quirky serverless technology and has no interest in funding any competition, even/especially in such sad shape as Deno is
CF workerd is only one out of those 5.
They don't even need to be the long term stewards either. Spend some time setting up a proper governance structure for Deno, hand it off, and then pay some maintainers to continue their existing effort.
At least how it's stated in the post, it really feels like an "ah good luck everyone, I'm out!" sorta deal, which seriously sucks for everyone who really believed in Deno.
Extremely disappointing...
Edit: Yes, but it's not named after me, which this fork fixes.
It's going to be the first JavaScript runtime to natively support Super Intelligence APIs.
I'm having an LLM replacing all occurrences of "ai" in every API with "si", in the hopes that OpenSI or SpaceXSI will acquihire me.
Especially with LLMs automating all sorts of code and operational aspects, we could do Tcl/Lua type whitelist sandboxes where the application can only call a limited set of functions.
> The Deno team is joining Cloudflare to radically simplify self-hosting Workers and Durable Objects so developers can use the same primitives in more places.
Well, that's pretty big news actually.
I guess I can say that this means Deno won't ever have a much needed Python 3 moment.
Ultimately I only trust Node.js to succeed. Bun being too deep into "shipping anything that increases usage".
Deno was a nice alternative with easy configuration and I loved KV and running it on a VPS.
I took the plunge and ripped out all my (“open source”) Magento shopfronts and reimplemented them from the ground in…… 2 hours. And it is so much more performant to boot.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/deno-joins-cloudflare/
TL;DR: Ryan and co. will be merging celld with workerd to create one first-class open source self-hostable runtime for Workers and Durable Objects. In the post I explain in the post why, contrary to what you might think, this is good business for Cloudflare and we're very excited about it.
But I do have a strangely high trust in the individuals involved (you, Ryan, Sunil, others), even though I am a bit perplexed by CloudFlare's incentives or economics
Which is to say: I am choosing to be optimistic :)
Caveat, am commenting before reading, mind you -- just my general reaction to mergers in a world that never cleaves :)
EDIT: though this has also probably deflated a lot of the good-faith conversations I was having with gov-adjacent Europeans about celld being a boon for the moment of heightened European sovereignty, where EU data residency isn't necessarily considered enough distance anymore.
> once you see it, you'll realize there's no point to traditional javascript runtimes in serving applications - only for build processes (eg bundling) and scripting.
I suspect he's come to the conclusion that the runtimes are now just a commodified build system that's been dialed in already, and the layer where celld sits is where the next unvalidated opportunities are
Most of us are here because we’re curious what it means for Deno specifically and FOSS TypeScript runtimes in general, since Bun was also acquired.
Given it's server focus though, I'd be very surprised if it was as good as Deno for giving agents a local code sandbox.
Also another blog post from when the feature became generally available: https://blog.cloudflare.com/dynamic-workers/
I agree it would be an awkward choice for an agent that runs as a local application, but the trend I think is towards agents running more and more on servers.
> Deno people probably just want a paycheck after they spent years seeking glory and money on something that other people used but didn't pay them a cent for.
My take: Opensource-Infrastructure-as-startup-but-also-charity is a thing that is going to die along with ZIRP. I don't know why VCs ever sniffed around things like this in the first place. The younger generation that followed this business model with liberal "take my stuff" licenses and sneered at GPL etc are learning the hard way that making a nice cool thing and getting noticed is not going to earn you a good living. (And other people will make millions off your passionate work.)
So Deno is going to be unsupported and will no longer be maintained and will be discontinued.
It looks like "written in Rust" is not enough for a selling point and lost out to the fierce competition against Bun.
My point is, even if Bun stayed on Zig, Deno still struggled to compete regardless of the language used.
Though nodejs was even then quite solid in it's position, so maybe it would not have made a difference.
[0] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1477333/000119312519...
Okay, but I never said there was, so nice strawman argument
At this point they are already up 1000% on their investment
They would rather have Deno pursue an acquisition instead of shutting down and losing their investment.
The only questionable detail about this announcement is it was for an undisclosed amount. Make of that what you will.
I mean that's just not how it works, most VC investments go to zero and they know that.