79 pointsby fsbonettoan hour ago11 comments
  • pcarolan31 minutes ago
    Really dumb question from a software guy. Why aren't the labs burning their frontier models into chips already? Seems like the performance gains and cost per request would be worth it. That said, I understand neither the economics nor the physical challenges to doing this.
    • zdragnar20 minutes ago
      Model SOTA moves faster than chips can be designed or produced. You'd need to commit to a particular model for years to get payoff while still burning buckets of money producing new SOTA models to keep up with the competition.

      It's why everyone and their dog runs these things on GPUs. When a new model supercedes the previous one, so long as you've got the memory for it your chips aren't obsolete.

      I'm looking forward to someone picking a model to be "good enough" (say, qwen 4.0 or something) and selling them as peripheral hardware

      • fhdkweig9 minutes ago
        I know FPGAs are more expensive than GPUs, but are they fast enough to justify the extra cost?
        • zdragnara minute ago
          It isn't just a matter of speed, it's also a matter of model quality. If they take 6 months to burn Fable to chips, and it takes 2 years to break even between design, custom fab, energy savings, etc, are those chips even worth running when the new models that are running on GPUs at that point are producing 10x better quality results?

          Sure, your 2.5 year old models are running faster, but you can't drop prices on them without pushing the break even point further out.

          If the cost difference isn't incredibly significant, will people even want to pay for the 2.5 year old model, or will they get more value for their money paying more to get better results from the newer model?

          There's a lot of open ended questions that I don't have the insiders knowledge for to suggest whether or not such a capital outlay would be a worthy investment.

          My guess is that state of the art stuff will stay on GPUs and models burned into chips will be for "good enough" applications that people are still teasing out. Probably highly specialized models in automated sensor units and such.

        • monocasa2 minutes ago
          They're not magical go faster juice. I don't know of a microarch where they're faster than modern GPUs at ML training or inference.
        • fsbonetto8 minutes ago
          They are more like a way to proving the architecture of the accelerator before committing 100's of millions into a custom ASIC with TSMC
        • LoganDark3 minutes ago
          1. No

          2. They don't have enough capacity either

          The largest FPGA, the AMD Versal Premium VP1902 has 18.5 million logic cells. That's not even enough for the smallest whisper.cpp model (75M)

    • skeskinen28 minutes ago
      Lead times are so long that there is a lot of risk the chips would be obsolete by the time they come out.

      Also, it's hard to get fab capacity for any project. Let alone something so experimental.

      • jcims25 minutes ago
        Addressing these issues seems to a major driver behind the design of terrafab.
    • ohazi26 minutes ago
    • jolt423 minutes ago
      Even dumber question: What is new or novel about this openTPU?
    • __MatrixMan__9 minutes ago
      Would you pay to crystalize one of today's models in silicon so you can use it in 2028, or would you wait for another 6 months to see how models improve before pulling the trigger on that kind of commitment?
    • birdatlaw21 minutes ago
      From what I've read, not only are some labs doing it (other commenters already mentioned).

      But it's complicated for other reasons, one being that the number of parameters for frontier models (especially with MoE models) are so high, and not always utilized (once again, thanks to MoE) that it would actually be incredibly cost prohibitive, if not impossible, to attempt to make giga-chips that would allow running it.

      I definitely do believe that we will see more and more specialized chips over time, but putting the entire model on a chip is still a ways away.

      I believe Taalas has a heavily handicapped llama 8-billion parameter model. And it still pulls >200W to run.

      I can't imagine how anthropic or open ai would be able to burn a multi-trillion parameter model on a chip, we just aren't there yet.

    • zitterbewegung26 minutes ago
    • schleck819 minutes ago
      Because the iteration speed on models is so fast that by the time they have an ASIC ready for one model version, they are already significantly ahead in capability. Think of how big the jump between Opus 4.8 and 5.5 has been. They were released four months apart.
    • 20 minutes ago
      undefined
    • pmarreck14 minutes ago
      Yeah, and what about FPGA? Which was the same interim state when Bitcoin went GPU -> FPGA -> custom chip fab?
      • fsbonetto12 minutes ago
        GPUs are faster, but you can't make your own arch on GPUs. FPGAs offer you that possibility. Said that... There are a few beasty FPGAs used in crypto mining coming my way... I expect that OpenTPU will be able to run frontier models with those.
    • fsbonetto19 minutes ago
      The bottleneck, for inference at least, is memory bandwidth. And that you can't make any faster by making it specific to your model.

      So companies try to maximize the memory bandwidth they can get, balancing tradeoffs of power/area/programability of their chip. Right now they feel like the economy on power/area is not worth the decrease in programability/flexibility.

      • fnordpiglet8 minutes ago
        Presumably though the kernel has a pretty specific set of operations done against the weights in memory. Burning the weights into the memory with local memory cores capable of the kernel operations would be a lot more efficient than round tripping busses.

        The primary constraint isn’t likely what’s possible to do, but that the kernel and weights are too variable right now and the patterns too poorly established to bake into hardware accelerators yet. Margin pressure is also not there yet.

        I suspect as the marginal utility of the frontier improvement settles into diminishing returns (I suspect we are there already tbh) baking hardware models with ROM, working set, and kernel cores collocated will be the frontier space as the goal will become reducing capital spend to utility levels rather than research levels.

        Once someone has a model that is sufficient for almost any practical use, making marginal inference cost effectively zero will be the competition frontier. I do shed a tear for all those lonely data centers as compute densities will almost certainly make most of them a terrible investment.

        But such is the cycle

    • traverseda28 minutes ago
      I'd presume because it take too long to go from design to tapeout to production. Their whole business is predicated on having better models.

      Also can't keep them closed source if you do that.

    • hehimself29 minutes ago
      They do. It takes time to deploy those chips though. Check out OpenAI and Broadcom deal.
    • 7 minutes ago
      undefined
    • dmitrygr12 minutes ago
      In addition to some of the other replies you got, here is one more:

      Much of a model are weights, and high-density ROMs are very very very hard.

  • athrowaway3z17 minutes ago
    I haven't really dug into the results yet, but my guess is that a SOTA model has been able to produce an accelerator that runs a model since around December.

    The obvious next step is to get enough memory throughput to run that SOTA model itself so that it develop its own hardware.

    But perhaps the more interesting question is this: Can an AI be given a big FPGA and design a model architecture that takes advantage of the fabric being reconfigurable.

    • felixgallo6 minutes ago
      I suspect an AI could design a purpose-built FPGA-like replacement that would be, for its purpose, significantly more effective than the current general-purpose FPGAs.
      • fsbonetto5 minutes ago
        It could have a small improvement on power consumption, but the current design can already achieve 90% of the maximum theoretical speed of this hardware without giving up programability/flexibility
  • fsbonettoan hour ago
    After using AI to develop risc-v CPU cores, the same technique was used for developing openTPU. An open source AI inference engine. It's able to run most of the modern models like Qwen 3.5, Gemma 4, and many others. The TPU started able to produce only a few tokens per second and trough a recursive self improvement loop got to 80+ tok/sec on the smallers models.
  • xg1519 minutes ago
    "Recursive self-improvement will kill us all!"

    Also: Here is our recursive self-improvement hard at work...

    • dumberquestions6 minutes ago
      Technology has always contributed to improving next iterations of itself, it's only a concern when it's fully autonomous.
    • lelanthran10 minutes ago
      > "Recursive self-improvement will kill us all!"

      > Also: Here is our recursive self-improvement hard at work...

      Soon we will see

      token-providers: "The torment nexus is a cautionary tale"

      Also token-providers: "Finally, we have created the torment nexus that we first told you about!"

    • nialse7 minutes ago
      All will end up on same plateau eventually. RSI is just a phase on the way there.
  • vatsachakan hour ago
    I feel like there is a lot to be gained from an experienced user pointing an LLM in a tasteful direction.
    • 20 minutes ago
      undefined
  • AnimalMuppet5 minutes ago
    Can anyone comment on the performance of this hardware? How does it compare to state of the art, human-designed hardware? Is this actually an improvement? (To get to recursive self-improvement, you first have to improve at all.)
  • skybrian34 minutes ago
    This seems to be running on an FPGA board that costs ~$300? Anyone know more about the hardware?
    • fsbonetto24 minutes ago
      Its a datacenter decommissioned board, really popular among hobbyists.

      For a TPU focused on inference the name of the game is memory bandwidth. How much of the available bandwidth you can extract for as little logic/area/power as you can.

  • srameshc8 minutes ago
    This post brings me to question "What does it mean to be a software developer in future" ?
  • bitwize13 minutes ago
    Colossus is building Colossus II.
  • fabiofachini92an hour ago
    [flagged]
    • pjmlpan hour ago
      I have seen this somewhere....
      • intrasight33 minutes ago
        It was widely noted (at least 15 years ago, maybe more) that every generation of CPU is somewhat dependent upon the computational capabilities of the previous generation being used in its design.
      • fsbonettoan hour ago
        Besides an specific movie ? There is this CPU auto improving loop as well: https://github.com/FeSens/auto-arch-tournament Opus 5.5 was the first to beat the human baseline
        • pjmlp33 minutes ago
          Of course the joke was about a specific movie.
  • rfgplk26 minutes ago
    Yep, 99.9% of people are completely oblivious to what LLMs can do. Just wait until the next gen of CPUs/GPUs designed by LLMs start coming out (fyi chip development tools have advanced centuries in the last few months) and you'll start seeing exponential gains in hardware.
    • jetemple16 minutes ago
      Which tools have made that leap? Faster design iteration makes sense, but what points to exponential hardware gains rather than shorter development cycles?