65 pointsby speckx6 hours ago34 comments
  • ZeroGravitas5 hours ago
    Under a picture of "Just Stop Oil" protestors:

    >Do you think this is really about climate change? No, these are empty human beings, desperate for their lives to mean something. And their apocalyptic climate change model has done that for them. It has nothing to do with science. They probably don’t realize that the marginal rate of energy cost is fast approaching zero. That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon. Hell, they probably aren’t even pro-nuclear.

    From a BBC explainer of what these protestors want:

    "Just Stop Oil (JSO) wants the UK to stop approving new fossil fuel projects, which are a major cause of climate change."

    That's a narrow goal and they stopped when they thought they'd achieved it.

    So their allegedly "apocalyptic" climate change model doesn't even stretch as far as stopping producing from existing oil fields, just new ones before they become sunk costs. Which makes sense because as this rant says, we have new and better tech to replace it.

    They are advocating the reasonsable compromise position. This guy is the "intellectual" who isn't letting facts get in the way of his rant about smart people.

    I'm guessing he's also missed the irony of citing Pol Pot killing all the educated folk as the intro to his "smart people are the problem" rant.

    • tuesdaynight4 hours ago
      The article is full of irony. In the end, he talks about "social media intellectuals" trying to capture people's attention instead of being correct, while doing the same in this post.

      I dare to say that "intellectuals" are easy to be hated, so this post is not doing something new or groundbreaking as it believes it does. As you said, dictators are prone to kill them

    • oulipo8 minutes ago
      Indeed they are a militant group trying to get to one goal, which, if reached, is already quite big. So of course they don't solve everything, but it's already a huge goal

      Meanwhile the author of the post says that "capture carbon technology is around the corner" while 99.9% of scientists say it won't work... so I let readers figure out who the clown is

    • docdeek5 hours ago
      The Just Stop Oil website’s FAQ suggests their goals are far more ambitious than now new projects:

      WHAT DOES JUST STOP OIL WANT?

      We demand that the UK government commits to working with other nations to establish a legally binding treaty to stop extracting and burning oil, gas and coal by 2030 as well as supporting and financing poorer countries to make a fast, fair, and just transition.

      https://juststopoil.org/faqs-updated/

      • ZeroGravitas5 hours ago
        I think that's just poor wording:

        As the "non-proliferation" treaty they link to makes clear in it's very name and in the full explanation, they want to first limit unnecessary expansion.

        https://www.fossilfueltreaty.org/about#about

        > Develop the plan that would allow governments to stop building out the problem by ending the expansion of coal, oil and gas production

        • leereeves3 hours ago
          > As the "non-proliferation" treaty they link to makes clear in it's very name and in the full explanation, they want to first limit unnecessary expansion.

          "First" sounds like the key word in that sentence. What do they want second, third, etc?

          Your link says this: "An equitable plan for the wind down of existing fossil fuel production, where nations with the capacity and historical responsibility for emissions transition fastest, providing support to others around the world."

          Which sounds a lot like "stop extracting and burning oil, gas and coal"

    • Huarache1an hour ago
      Pol Pot's ideology was essentially led by educated people, Communism historically spread through academia riling up the poor masses, in the most direct version of Peter Turchin's theory of Elite Overproduction.

      I don't believe in anti-intellectualism, but it's arguably the Elite Aspirants which are well educated, who often have the most to gain against Intellectuals.

      See Stewart Rhodes, the Yale Law School Grad who started the Oath Keepers. Pol Pot himself studied at Elite schools in Cambodia, and even went on an academic trip to Paris to study radio electronics.

      • Huarache1an hour ago
        In a nutshell, behind every anti-intellectual movement, is a group of people who are often well educated.
    • greenavocado2 hours ago

        THE POWER PROCESS
      
        33. Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call the “power process.” This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will discuss it later (paragraphs 42-44).
      
        34. Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one’s power.
  • sgjohnson5 hours ago
    > Or consider the fact that over 91% of hedge fund managers can’t beat the market, despite the fact that the entire purpose of hedge funds is to explicitly create better returns than the market.

    This isn't strictly speaking true. While some hedge funds have the goal of beating the market, most of them have different investment philosophy. Not that long ago most of them were meant for what the name implies - hedging. The idea being that hedge funds optimized for consistency, not higher returns. Market up 20%? Your hedge fund might yield something like a 10% return. Market down 20%? Your hedge fund might be down only like 5%.

    • graemep4 hours ago
      Fund managers in general cannot beat the market because beating the market is a zero sum game.
      • lesuorac4 hours ago
        Sure but thats an apples-oranges comparison.

        The goal of a hedge fund is definitionally to hedge some risk. If you work in say AI then they should invest very little of your funds into AI (to hedge against a blow-up in AI eliminating your income and if you invested in ai also your savings). In the current environment they’d almost certainly have below market returns. It doesn’t make the hedge fund bad; the hedge is meant to counteract losses not double down on gains.

        Thats said, a lot of hedge funds now operate as pod shops and that goal is to beat the market.

        • graemep4 hours ago
          The hedging in hedge funds comes not because they are intended to hedge risks you have from elsewhere, it is because they (traditionally) hedge against market risk, to seek absolute returns rather than measuring against the market.
  • nottorp6 hours ago
    Believable statements with an anti climate change statement squeezed in the middle :)
    • yvdriess5 hours ago
      I found it an apt demonstration of his own thesis.
    • prolly975 hours ago
      Making an antithetical statement doesn't invalidate anything by definition. If you have a rebuttal, do as the author, and express it. State specifically what you're opposing, and give your best rebuttal. Then we can consider what set of arguments and data best predict reality.
      • FranzFerdiNaN5 hours ago
        Why should someone put effort in rebutting his nonsense? He is the one who posits some outrageous claims without any proof.
        • nottorp5 hours ago
          Not all claims in the article are outrageous. As a matter of fact most are pretty solid. Which is why the bit about "just wait for tech to solve climate change" stood out for me.
    • variadix3 hours ago
      The deindustrialization and degrowth policies put forth by climate activists will kill more people and cause more suffering than climate change.
    • vovavili5 hours ago
      It's more of a statement about excessive alarmism.
    • graemep5 hours ago
      He is calling Just Stop Oil idiots. He is saying its idiotic to vandalise paintings.

      That is very different from a claim that climate change is not happening or not anthropogenic.

      • yvdriess5 hours ago
        > They probably don’t realize that the marginal rate of energy cost is fast approaching zero. That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon.

        By adding that, he is implying "Don't need to act, keep burning fossils, tech will fix it". That is in itself asserting a simplified model assumption about a (human) world that is much more complex; something he was railing against in the previous parts of his text. Either it's a cheeky joke, he himself is an intellectual or both.

      • nottorp5 hours ago
        You're missing this part:

        "They probably don’t realize that the marginal rate of energy cost is fast approaching zero. That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon."

        Two wildly optimistic statements that can be characterized as "the model" he's criticizing in the rest of the article.

        • graemep5 hours ago
          I agree that bit is wildly optimistic, but its still not a claim that climate change is not real and it does not really change his main points that they are idiots.

          I think a bigger problem in the context of the article is that they are not intellectuals.

      • someonebaggy5 hours ago
        What could one individual do to reduce climate change by more than their own contribution?
    • hunterpayne5 hours ago
      The people in 'Just stop oil' really are fools. The movement is bankrolled by the largest Solar PV importer in the UK. Also, the UK is too far north for solar PV to be environmentally friendly as their solar albino is less than .25. So they are annoying others to force an economically and environmentally unworkable solution. Yes, that is the behavior of a fool. If you are going to put so much into an issue, you should really do your research and be sure what you are trying to do makes sense. These people do not.
      • dpatterbee5 hours ago
        This is about the 50th anti-solar panel comment I've seen from you over the last number of months. If you google "solar albino" you just get your comments on here (and the AI summary is absolutely roasting you btw), perhaps you mean something else. None of the comments of yours I've seen have ever contained a source for your claims. I'd hate to assume bad faith but it does seem ideologically motivated more than based on reality.
        • variadix3 hours ago
          Probably meant albedo
      • staminade5 hours ago
        "Wind and solar power could significantly exceed Britain’s energy needs" - 2023

        https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-09-26-wind-and-solar-power-co...

  • motionlessveloc5 hours ago
    This is written by the author of "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck", so gratuitous cursing is his schtick.

    The book is actually more interesting than you'd think from the title, but (IMHO) the profanity still distracts from the message, and like most self-improvement books you could probably condense the 200+ pages into 10.

    • 9999000009995 hours ago
      He's also a white guy from a rich family.

      Born on 3rd and thinks he hit a triple. He wrote a rant once saying that your shouldn't worry about STDs/STIs because he doesn't know anyone with one.

      His own book falls apart if you think too much. He's insecure that not everyone agrees with his advice.

      He never stops to think that most people can't up and quit the only job they've ever had after 6 weeks.

    • tuesdaynight4 hours ago
      >and like most self-improvement books you could probably condense the 200+ pages into 10.

      And if you read one, you read at least 80% of all the content of the others. Some are good and you get 20% of novelty, but that's rare

  • ElProlactin5 hours ago
    Intelligent people can be wrong. Massive revelation here.

    What's interesting is that the author apparently never considers the possibility that some of the people he holds up as case studies didn't actually believe their "models" were right but had other motivations for their actions.

    McNamara is the perfect example of this. It's pretty well established now that he knew the US was never going to "win" in Vietnam but he kept going for other reasons, such as a deep sense of loyalty to President Johnson.

    From this perspective, the numbers (picking the "right" ones and manipulating them) were used to support a narrative. They weren't evidence that McNamara actually believed his "model" was working.

    Applying this to Blue Zones: intellectuals can be opportunists. They might realize the data is bad and the conclusion is not as well supported by it, but that there's a story ("model") that is appealing and can be packaged and sold.

    Edit: I should also add that there's a semantic dimension to this post. Robert McNamara was not an "intellectual"; he was a technocrat. So it seems like the author is defining "intellectual" as any person who is considered "intelligent", but I guess "Intelligent People Are Fucking Idiots" wasn't as good a headline.

    • TSiege5 hours ago
      Agreed. Ehlrich as well. He was a butterfly specialist and applied population theories he used in his own research onto humans. His book was a surprise best seller and made him an intellectual celebrity.

      His article is heavy cherry picking and shows little curiosity beyond “you’re dumb I’m smart.”

    • trilogic5 hours ago
      >Intelligent people can be wrong. Massive revelation here.

      Nope, megalomaniacs are wrong prepotently loud, most of the time just because they can (a piece of paper allows them to). Which makes them all but intelligent.

      • ElProlactin4 hours ago
        So "intellectuals" are all megalomaniacs now?
  • nayroclade5 hours ago
    Ironically this article itself is a model of "life in 2026" based on examples cherry-picked to support the author's viewpoint. I wonder if he as open to being proved wrong about this exact thesis as he encourages his audience to be?
  • otterley6 hours ago
    > Engage with reality as much as possible. That means less time on this site and more time in the world. Less time watching human faces on a screen and more time seeing human faces in person.

    > The more time you spend with real people out in the world, the less you will emotionally rely upon abstract intellectual models to infuse your life with a sense of connection and purpose.

    > Hold all of your opinions lightly. Be proud of your ability to change your mind. Actively seek out evidence of your own ignorance and failings.

    Amen, brother.

    • api6 hours ago
      Good advice for everyone in this age of staring at screens.

      A few "razors" I use, which are probably not original to me:

      (1) People are more important than ideas. Any idea that says the idea, or its vision of the future, is more important than people fails. Doesn't matter what school of thought it comes from or how good it sounds or whether it seems intellectually consistent. If the idea is not working in a way that is hurting people, toss the idea.

      (2) Peoples' personal lives are absolutely on the table when evaluating their ideas. If someone's personal life is an absolute mess, or they're running a cult, or they're in one, or they treat the people around them like complete crap, it should be cause for extreme skepticism at the very least.

      (3) If it's hard to understand, it might be profound... or it might be pseudo-profound bullshit that's muddying the waters to make them look deep.

      • ViktorRay5 hours ago
        Isn't your second point essentially an ad hominem?

        If an idea is good then the idea is good regardless of the person who came up with the idea. Same principle if the idea is bad.

        • Yossarrian222 hours ago
          Broadly true but in a marketplace overrun with all sorts of ideas filtering out people who engage in acts or behavior you find abhorrent can be a useful filter for ideas to consider.

          Or to put it another way, have you sat through a timeshare pitch to evaluate if the idea is good or bad?

        • otterley5 hours ago
          Agree in principle, but some people mistakenly believe that because a wealthy person did something and succeeded, regardless of the cost or externalities, it must have been a good idea.
          • tuesdaynight4 hours ago
            Why "but"? You are agreeing with the previous comment, right?
        • api3 hours ago
          That's why I said it should inspire skepticism. I take it as a cue to take a closer look.
      • micheljansen5 hours ago
        Unfortunately it seems that many leading figures in the tech industry live by the absolute opposite of these. Just look at Elon Musk, Sam Altman, DHH... the list goes on.
        • otterley5 hours ago
          Yeah, well, fuck those guys. Don’t try to emulate them. Fortunately, we have better wealthy role models like Melinda French Gates, Mackenzie Scott, and Warren Buffett to look up to.
  • jzellis3 hours ago
    ">Do you think this is really about climate change? No, these are empty human beings, desperate for their lives to mean something. And their apocalyptic climate change model has done that for them. It has nothing to do with science. They probably don’t realize that the marginal rate of energy cost is fast approaching zero. That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon. Hell, they probably aren’t even pro-nuclear."

    Jerkoff sneering at intellectuals uses "marginal costs" as a metric without considering externalities that have nothing to do with economics (the softest of soft "sciences") and states that technological innovation is exponential as though that's a law of nature rather than a limited observation of a brief period in human history.

    I remember the first time Daddy let me have a sip of a wine cooler too. Yawn. Hand him a moist towelette when he's done, somebody, wouldja? The grownups are working on grownup stuff.

  • kabakabakaba5 hours ago
    > Do you think this is really about climate change? No, these are empty human beings

    I found it a ironic to make such a confident psychological diagnosis built on zero contact with the people involved

    • amykhar5 hours ago
      While I absolutely believe in climate change, I DO think that there are people out there talking about it as fanatically as the most MAGA Trump worshiper talks about Trump. We have to be careful to not let the most fringe element of any issue become the de facto voice of the issue because media, both social and otherwise, profits on drama.
  • lksaar2 hours ago
    The author of the article should probably read the articles they're riffing on past the abstract and engage with social sciences in good faith. Linking a 40 year old article does not inspire confidence either.

    Also that NCRI study is a joke.

    • soco2 hours ago
      Their tone reads more like a cultist knee-jerk reaction, I mean who else talks like that.
  • derbOacan hour ago
    > Online, the models of the world that travel the furthest are not the most accurate but even the most attention-grabbing. They are the models that appeal most strongly to our base instincts, prejudices and emotional needs.

    Ironic to be asserting.

  • 5 hours ago
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  • Machado1172 hours ago
    > Look at these fucking idiots. (…) They’re probably just really angry at mom and dad and don’t have the emotional skills to resolve their attachment issues or childhood baggage.

    And in between he presents his own model where we don’t need to worry about climate change

  • tagaziel5 hours ago
    > That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon.

    Stopped reading at this point. The point about not updating views as new evidence trickles in is fair - it's a problem with self-proclaimed intellectuals across the political spectrum, from the most terminally online tankie to the most vicious neoliberal who sold their mother on the free market to profit from her organs).

    However, immediately going on to glaze over the fossil fuel industry's non-existent technology that's supposedly going to save us all illustrates the point of the article remarkably well. Congrats, I guess?

  • mpalmer5 hours ago
    The sources for the withering opening anecdote about the stupid leftist intellectual are pretty thin. Everyone involved is just guessing why this guy was killed.

    It says more about the author than anything else; that he wants it to be true.

  • croes5 hours ago
    > That technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon.

    Sounds like the other predictions that were wrong.

    > Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye

  • skew-aberration5 hours ago
    'This one eccentric professor wrote a provocative engagement-bait ideological book on a topic outside his area of study 60 years ago. Expert opinions can therefore be safely ignored by people with common sense / exposure to reality'
  • snapetom5 hours ago
    Hah. Paul Ehrlich was my high school graduation speaker. Stanford's Professorville was districted to my high school, so I'm sure some parent were friends with him or something.

    Man, what a boring, downer speech. He just talked about how my generation was screwed, and we would have world wide famines at any moment now. Great topic for a bunch of kids about to head off to college and start their lives, Paul.

  • nephihaha6 hours ago
    I see this all the time. I was trying to explain recently to someone how a person can be highly intelligent and a fool at the same time. It is as if the brain takes skills from one area to build them up in another. Many intelligent people lack social understanding, and some are extremely cut off and cruel in their view of the wider population. Some intellectuals are highly totalitarian in their thinking.

    Academia itself also functions as a kind of subculture, with its own customs, traditions and quirks. I'm not just thinking of the strange fraternities, processions and whatnot in old universities, but the way academic papers are worded or even titled.

  • myst6 hours ago
    Master Mazu sat on the chair. Baizhang stood up and rolled up his sitting mat. Mazu stood up and went back to his quarters.
  • 2OEH8eoCRo04 hours ago
    > technological innovation is exponential and carbon capture can likely be made economical relatively soon.

    Sounds like faith that an outdated model will trend into the future.

  • AndrewThrowaway5 hours ago
    Intellectuals in soft sciences are fucking idiots.

    In physics/engineering and similar real life instantly shows how wrong you are. You can't really go far in your career believing something that is not true and tested.

    In something like "relationship studies" you can live in your ivory tower for decades. Your only feedback loop is your own students and disciples who just want to live in the same ivory tower.

    You can have some crazy theory like "human relationship output is dependent on socioeconomic outputs". And discuss that theory for decades, get your phd and stuff like that and your only judges are the same people in the same field.

    • FranzFerdiNaN5 hours ago
      So what do you propose? We stop any research into anything that isnt math because it fails to adhere to the methods of math? Becasue biology and medicine clearly are soft sciences, and physics and chemistry are just applied math so why bother.

      And well, math is just applied philosophy and suddenly we're back to the ancient Greeks i guess.

      • AndrewThrowaway5 hours ago
        Biology and medicine clearly are not so soft because they can be tested by scientific methods.

        Have you read the article? You have a science like "human behavior" where your experiments can't be reproduced. Simply because there will be so many variables or variation that your science is as good as a guess from somebody from the street.

        Or again sciences where you just make models of some imaginary things like hidden meaning 10th century in literature. Your only test is another 10the century literature meaning searcher. You just clap each other on the shoulder and give each other phds.

        • jmye4 hours ago
          [dead]
  • skybrian5 hours ago
    You can find examples of deluded people everywhere. It would be more defensible to claim that some intellectuals are idiots.
  • xtiansimon5 hours ago
    It’s a rare thinker who can combine a story about brutal communism and gym memberships.
  • Betelbuddy5 hours ago
    Wait until you hear about the ultimate fraud...Economists.

    Look at the EU central bank and their rising on interest rates despite rising prices not proving rising demand....but they live by their model...

    You get a war as external shock that makes oil scarcer while the economy is already contracting...so they hike rates, what will not create oil but crushes demand on top of a supply collapse...

    • someonebaggy5 hours ago
      Yes, that is how it works. To make supply and demand meet, you can increase supply or decrease demand. Central banks only have one of those levers and have to use it to counteract whatever the market does to the other lever.

      Most of the time economists are just making up excuses for why it's actually a good thing to give all the world's money to rich people who happen to employ economists, but sometimes there's a spark of truth.

    • graemep5 hours ago
      Economics is always political, and economists advice reflects that. Other fields can be political, economics remains largely "political economy" with a pretence at neutrality.

      Its not the ECB - many central banks are doing the same for the same reasons.

    • otterley5 hours ago
      > despite rising prices not proving rising demand

      Central banks don’t take the cause of inflation into account when they adjust borrowing rates. This is a feature, not a bug.

    • snapetom5 hours ago
      I was in a pretty decent econ program big public university. The program and our professors at the time had close Wall Street ties due to proximity. Despite that, no professor took themselves very seriously and many would make constant cracks about the absurdity of the field and why would anyone listen to them. It was a totally cool department of self-aware smart people.
    • amelius5 hours ago
      We should check if AI gives better predictions than economists, and if so replace them.
    • skew-aberration5 hours ago
      Central bank interest rates don't exist to 'control prices' per se. The state would like to create new money supply to make the economy move faster (e.g. maintain high employment in slow business periods). This would be to the disadvantage of the banks (their loans to debtors would be devalued). Hence a compromise was created to make the money supply more elastic without risking hyperinflation - banks may create new money supply for this purpose but must pay for it at the interest rate. Inflation is key a part of the feedback loop, to limit money creation to some supposedly optimal target range.

      Surprisingly, this system was created by bankers and politicians, rather than economists /s

      There are also many sources of 'cost of living' which are not related to money supply and therefore not directly related to monetary policy.

  • jackmott425 hours ago
    This article kind of lost the plot after a little bit, it started descending into its own criticisms with flippant dismissals of climate change being a real concern, dismissal of people's motivations without evidence, assurances based on vague predictions that climate engineering will suddenly become viable.

    Started to feel a little uncomfortable given the themes and the mention of pol pot at the beginning, almost like he is calling for more genocide of intellectuals so he can keep rolling coal or something.

  • applicative2 hours ago
    Dunno what an intellectual is, but why would an anecdote from the seventies prove anything about that undefined genus?

    Poor Caldwell was in fact ruined by typical upscale British anti-Yankee fever, the respectable man’s anti’zionism’ but so much less libidinally rewarding than the real article. Cold War upscale Yankee snobbery often took on left wing coloration.

  • pizzaiolo5 hours ago
    "Intellectuals are idiots, listen to me instead"
    • lazide5 hours ago
      I took it as ‘watch me demonstrate’.
  • oulipo5 hours ago
    One of the most famous one is the doctor who proved that it's better to wash your hands before an operation, and all the other existing doctors who never did that previously shunned him, because it would prove they "did their job poorly" before

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

    • ZeroGravitas5 hours ago
      This is also a current story about operations that after careful study don't actually improve patient outcomes.

      The people who've been doing the operations for decades are much less open to this new informstion than newly trained doctors.

  • sylware6 hours ago
    Isn't that the "silver tower" syndrom?
    • cinntaile5 hours ago
      Ivory tower.

      Interesting that it's called silver tower in your language. What's your native language? Is the word for silver and ivory the same? Probably not, but just curious.

    • myst6 hours ago
      Which “that”?
    • steveBK1235 hours ago
      Ivory tower?
  • 6 hours ago
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  • thendrill5 hours ago
    I can vouch for that too. I used to work with nuclear scientists in the IAEA.

    They all knew the difference and the details of sievert and gray... But holy shit they were gullible idiots. They were without backbone and 0 real life experience. Most of them were the kind that got into school and they just stayed there after their PDHs.

    In short it was like a group of lamb ready for the slaughter by Politicians and other industrialists.

    They were all basically researchers for hire. Pay to Play. The worst of all was that they were really useful idiots and did not event realize that they are selling out.

    I have so many scary stories....

  • onetokeoverthe6 hours ago
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  • trilogic5 hours ago
    Best article read this year. Give this man an Oscar for his courage. Many have tried but have been crucified, I am puzzled HN set this one in main page.
    • motionlessveloc5 hours ago
      Don't worry, the heresy has been flagged already.
      • trilogic5 hours ago
        Together with my comment at the very bottom :)) If you want to know more always look at the "bottom" of the comments.