70 pointsby sbulaev8 hours ago15 comments
  • red_admiral6 hours ago
    > Companies were paying for more than 30 million Copilot subscriptions as of the end of June. And while individual users are free to use limited versions of Copilot’s chat experience, its most powerful tools are reserved for subscribers to the company’s M365 apps bundle, which has about 90 million paying users.

    It needs to be more widely known that if you cancel a (home) 365 subscription, you'll be offered a cheaper version without AI integration.

    • deckar014 hours ago
      Now if I could just get them to start paying me cash for training their AI on my open source code and selling it rather than being force fed a Copilot grant.
    • pfortuny5 hours ago
      Sorry what? Honest question.
      • doubled1125 hours ago
        Microsoft allows you to subscribe to Microsoft 365 personal or family without AI for a small discount, but they hid the option on a page you can only get to if you click cancel on your subscription.
  • TuringNYC6 hours ago
    My blood pressure rises everytime i use Enterprise Copilot at work. It seems they truncate message history heavily (to save input token costs?) and Copilot forgets the last thing you told it in the chat. It is like a real-life version of Momento (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209144/) mixed with Waiting for Gadot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot), pretending to be in league with Anthropic.
    • gregschlom6 hours ago
      Off-topic but I find it amusing that you managed to misspell both movie titles :)
      • TuringNYCan hour ago
        Fair point, that happens when i'm trying to be on MS Teams for a conf call, while watching my claude code terminal and then browsing HN on another monitor :-/
      • trash885 hours ago
        Similarly to categorize Beckett as a movie.
        • pavlov4 hours ago
          Indeed they don’t move very much in Godot. More like a standie-sittie than a movie.
    • browningstreet4 hours ago
      Doing research work with it that outputs any kind of artifact is.. really painful. It constantly crashes, has to regenerate.. and then the output is often very difficult to carry to other Microsoft products, like Sharepoint. I end up creating PDFs that I import.

      I'll go ahead and burn working hours on it because I'm getting paid, and people like the things I create.. but it's a very crippled and painful version of what you get with the frontier products and most OSS options.

      • poly2it4 hours ago
        It boggles my mind that Microsoft can fail to deliver even bare minimum working software so consistently, with all the engineering talent they house. What are the product teams doing?
        • TuringNYCan hour ago
          I feel it is even worse than bare minimum -- it is so bad it infuriates the user. It is hard to get away from that reaction when one uses better alternatives in their personal life.
    • light_triad4 hours ago
      You're right using Microsoft products is like mixing Momento with Waiting for Gadot :)

      I recently switched to New Outlook and it's full of weird subtle bugs. It takes them years to fix things and make them barely useable. Given their track record I'm not optimistic for Copilot given both the vision and the execution are questionable at best.

      • RoadieRoller4 hours ago
        My employer installed the new Outlook in the background, and it was forcing me to switch to the new every time I use the old version.

        I had to edit Windows Registry to avoid getting prompted every time I open old outlook. I didn’t like the looks or the bugs in the new version.

    • automatic61314 hours ago
      It's such a broken POS. Code snippets, especially for html, frequently don't render, or if they do, they render as rendered html which will frequently be an empty box, and you have to manually (for each snippet box) switch to show code mode.

      Trillion dollar industry btw.

    • Gareth3214 hours ago
      It's so bad. I'm cool with paying for good products but it's offensively bad.
      • automatic61314 hours ago
        I can tolerate Teams being a bit mid because the core functionality nearly always works. I can tolerate Outlook being meh because it's doing a lot (nothing I, a lowly IC really need though I can imagine the top hatted boss who does) and I think it does okay with the scope it's tackling.

        But the M365 copilot app is inexcusable for being as core to Microslop's strategy.

    • OGWhales4 hours ago
      Huh... not my experience with the "premium" license. The interface isn't as nice and definitely less powerful than something like codex/claude code/whatever, but I don't seem to have any issues with truncation or things like that. I'm usually using 5.6 thinking (not clear which 5.6 model exactly) when I'm using copilot at work. It seems... fine? I always see people here always complaining that it's nerfed, truncates things, etc etc. The only difference I see is that interface isn't as nice nor as powerful, but I don't notice the answers being noticeably worse or anything like that. Occasionally it messes up code block formatting, but that's the only thing I can think of that annoys me.

      Now, the "copilots" integrated in certain Microsoft products can be really horrible. I assume those are some sort of custom models that are not very capable, most of them I consider effectively worthless. But the web chat interface where I can pick chatGPT 5.6 seems fine...

      • TuringNYCan hour ago
        Given you're comparing to codex/claude code you probably arent talking about MS Copilot (e.g. the thing inside MS Teams but also available standalone as MS Copilot 365). Try it out and be convinced :-)
  • pseudosavant5 hours ago
    Does anyone even want to try this? I'm a Windows user, M365 subscriber, VS Code user (when I'm not in Codex), had a Github Copilot subscription, etc... and a heavy AI user. Basically, the prime target for Microsoft AI. And every attempt Microsoft has made to put AI into a product has been unusable garbage, using the same models I find productive in other tools.

    So many AI doubters I know hate using AI tools because their employer only gives them the Microsoft offerings. Which is a totally understandable reaction to those tools.

    • fhn3 hours ago
      I mean they are a billion dollar company? What did you expect?
  • VCFundedGenYer6 hours ago
    It was foolish of them to think they had any consumer clout left. Shoving 1000 copies of an inaccurate, poorly functioning, and inconsistent product down everyone's throat will someday be a case study in how to immediately destroy a brand.
    • ieie33664 hours ago
      Crazy how if they had waited about 2-3 years, and kept windows AI-free and released it today using the latest models, it would absolutely be well received (see: muse, new siri)

      Instead their incompetent managers were chasing promotions and pushed a technology which was not ready yet

    • icantevenhold5 hours ago
      While I would like it to be different M$ is far from destroyed. Quite the opposite from my POV it looks far stronger than 10-20 years ago.

      The reality is that most users and consumers don’t care about quality, accuracy or functionality at all.

      • jr35924 hours ago
        "at all" is probably a stretch, but agreed that the number one factor for a mile is cost. users will accept a surprising level of trash, if the price is cheap.

        engineers tend to think as engineers do, solving all problems with features, quality improvements, etc. but those all drive costs up, and don't always provide the return we think they will.

    • hluska5 hours ago
      This is just how Microsoft operates. They have operated like this for decades. “Immediately” is quite the exaggeration.
    • fakedang6 hours ago
      Microsoft does not care about consumer branding because their enterprise branding game is A1.
    • PunchyHamster6 hours ago
      .... immediately ? MS has been doing it for decades
  • joshstrange7 hours ago
  • aniceperson3 hours ago
    Microsoft inviting IT to nice events and giving them perks is the reason they keep a grip so tight on enterprise. For unknown reasons, every garbage new microsoft add-on will be enabled silently without any clear way to manage. At least for copilot pro plus premium they sent an email that "i was invited" so i could promptly reject before they activated, but here is the trick, 99% of the employees won't bother to opt-out.
  • infecto6 hours ago
    Not at all that surprising. There enterprise offering is barely acceptable and they have continued to drop the ball on having half decent Cowork solution.

    They have all rights to win with their existing enterprise agreement but wow it’s amazing to see how bad their product cadence and decision making is. All they needed to do was copy Claude Cowork like OpenAI did.

  • glimshe6 hours ago
    Great! I was looking forward to an unified AI service like we got unified messaging with MS Teams!!!
  • schwarzrules4 hours ago
    Just going to use this thread to also add a nit: I hate that Microsoft made all the OEMs add a Copilot key to all their laptop keyboards. It's been Ctrl forever, and suddently they throw this net-negative key onto the keyboard. I have decades of habit of using the right side Ctrl key for varying shortcut strokes, and then when I use it now it loads up an unproductive Copilot experience that is awful. <end rant>
    • drfloyd513 hours ago
      Autohotkey for the win.

      Powertoys even offers keyboard remapping.

  • TYPE_FASTER4 hours ago
    I think it makes much more sense for Microsoft to provide a good agent orchestration layer for their operating system and productivity software (are we still calling it that?) than try to compete with the Frontier providers.
  • 2OEH8eoCRo06 hours ago
    Still can't believe they ditched the Cortana name.
    • rm_-rf_slash6 hours ago
      Nah it makes sense. They know their AI is second rate at best. Cortana implies 26th century excellence. If the reality is a step back (and we all know it’s several), then “haha Cortana dumb” memes would sweep the internet. They would have to rebrand anyway. If anything it was smart to rip off the band aid early.
      • VCFundedGenYer6 hours ago
        No, it doesn't make sense. Cortana was a fantastic name for an assistant, and synergistic with Halo at the time.

        The low quality of the voice assistant was unfortunate, but the naming was perfect.

        • Kirby646 hours ago
          The low quality of the voice assistant meant they doomed the Cortana name. It got associated with garbage voice assistance, so they had to rebrand.

          If there had been consumer good will for voice assistant performance before poisoning the name, it might have survived... but when you first product in that realm is garbage and it lingers for a long time, you're dooming the name.

          Also, synergy with Halo is meaningless to Microsoft. Most folks do not care or even know about Halo.

          • 2OEH8eoCRo06 hours ago
            Why isn't the Siri name poisoned for being terrible?
            • Kirby645 hours ago
              It kind of has, although I would argue that Siri is more successful than Cortana.

              If I recall correctly, the thing that made Cortana particularly frustrating and worthless is that it did all searches using Bing, and opened any websites using Edge, regardless of your default settings. You got forced to use all the Microsoft version of every tool, even if you didn't want to.

            • spogbiper5 hours ago
              I get the impression that it is, at least to some degree
              • 2OEH8eoCRo04 hours ago
                If the Siri name is poisoned then why doesn't Apple rebrand?
                • jandresean hour ago
                  Because Apple doesn't care. Siri is just something that is bolted on when you buy the hardware. Cortana was an actual product that Microsoft is trying to sell.

                  I don't know anybody who uses Siri for more than just setting an occasional timer or something. Usually it's a nuisance when she is accidentally activated and takes over the interface.

                • drfloyd513 hours ago
                  Apple is stubborn.

                  And to Apple, Siri is to Siri AI as MacBook is to MacBook Pro.

                  Completely different product.

                  • Grombobulous42 minutes ago
                    Siri isn’t in any way a tainted brand name, I hear strangers saying “Hey Siri” all the time.

                    Asking for Siri is like an automatic reflex to a lot of people. You can’t change that name.

                • 4 hours ago
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        • hluska5 hours ago
          Considering how little knowledge you showed of Microsoft’s history in a previous comment, it would be better if you just sat out branding conversations.
      • card_zero6 hours ago
        Since I never played Halo, it makes me think of Cordova, and implies 10th-century Islamic Spain.
  • pdntspa6 hours ago
    Again?
  • oh_no6 hours ago
    microsoft Product remains an unmitigated dumpster fire.

    i think github copilot has actually gotten to a pretty good place, and of course the two copilot products will both have features called "autopilot" that do entirely different things

    • infecto6 hours ago
      It’s really interesting to watch unfold because from the outside it seems so obvious. While I know change at scale can be hard it’s surprising nobody has called for a culling or shakeup to work it out.
    • basch5 hours ago
      and unrelated to Windows Autopilot which part of device deployment and intune succeeding sccm.

      Mindboggling.

  • agentnet-live6 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • bena7 hours ago
    Did this one become a Nazi as well?
    • nekusar7 hours ago
      At least a few of us remember TayAI. And to think this was 2016, well before "Attention is all you need" LLM paper.

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microsoft-shuts-down-ai-chatbot...

      • flowerlad4 hours ago
        And then there is the Microsoft AI that fell in love with a reporter and asked him to leave his wife and marry it:

        https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/16/technology/bing-chatbot-m...

      • bena6 hours ago
        I was about to say that it feels so much earlier than that. But then, 2016 was a whole decade ago.

        To think, the main impetus was mostly to see if it could be done. And to show Microsoft why you don't expose things like that to the public. Microsoft said "She'll learn from your conversations" and the internet said "Bet"

        • PunchyHamster6 hours ago
          > Microsoft said "She'll learn from your conversations" and the internet said "Bet"

          ...well, it did exactly that, no bet here.

          • bena3 hours ago
            Yes, but it's a way to say "Oh yes it will". Or even "Challenge accepted".

            It's acknowledgement