60 pointsby MC995an hour ago14 comments
  • hn_submita minute ago
    Europe is continually complaining about their dependency on Chinese steel, cars, electronics and semiconductors yet their carmakers are buying cheap Chinese steel instead of European steel and European semiconductor manufacturers are preferring cheap Chinese semiconductor equipment over ASML gear.

    Europe is a lost continent.

  • HPsquared36 minutes ago
    Semiconductor fabs involve a lot of hazardous chemicals, process changes and high energy consumption. Exactly the kind of thing European regulations tend to deter or slow down. Which is somewhat fine if there is nowhere else to build it, but if other places are easier, well...
    • l5870uoo9y17 minutes ago
      > high energy consumption

      Just to address this separately: there is effectively energy rationing in several European countries, where the government intervenes to prioritize who should receive energy first (e.g., the Netherlands and Denmark).

      • alephnerd15 minutes ago
        Most fabs build their own separate power grid.

        And Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan are also energy poor states that have been able to maintain capacity.

        The energy excuse is true for some manufacturing processes like automotive in CEE which were pants that were built in the 1990s to 2000s and leveraged Russian ONG, but is a red herring for a lot of other manufacturing processes in Europe.

        European states have a coordination problem as Draghi pointed out 2 years ago.

    • piltdownman26 minutes ago
      I mean Ireland has some of the most strenuous regulations in this regard, with dozens of data centres blocked over planning and environmental impact assessments. Despite this Intel still put €30 billion in turning a 360-acre former stud farm in Kildare into a semiconductor wafer fabrication facility, powered entirely by green energy, and acting a key location for production of Intel’s 14nm process technology. They currently pull 1,677,197 MWh/year from our grid.

      More to the point, construction kicked off in 2019 on a €17 billion new fab development which will double the manufacturing capacity available in Ireland and enable the production of Intel 4, the company’s most advanced process technology.

      • mikeyouse15 minutes ago
        For better or worse, Ireland’s extremely lax tax rules resulted in a ton of multinational corporate cash ‘stuck’ there with companies having the option of spending there roughly tax free or repatriating back to the US at some rate higher than that. It also really helps sell the ‘of course an Irish subsidiary owns all of our IP’ tax claims if there is actual spending there, hence you got all the pharma investment and the capital projects from others like Intel and Apple.
        • alephnerd8 minutes ago
          "Trapped capital" is not why Intel has doubled down on Ireland.

          It's because whenever Intel asks for anything, the Taoiseach, IDA, and Invest Ireland will move mountains to do it.

          Ireland is extremely business friendly because their leadership actually listens to industry.

      • upupupandaway4 minutes ago
        >construction kicked off in 2019 on a €17 billion new fab development which will double

        I think what the OP wanted to highlight is right here: in China or Taiwan etc. this would not have taken 7 years.

    • cromka9 minutes ago
      This is some ridiculous speculation, we do plenty of such critical manufacturing in EU. Regulations is not why we don't make highly-integrated chips here.
    • Zagitta34 minutes ago
      Everyone loves a good race to the bottom with the environment
      • alephnerd29 minutes ago
        Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the US all share comparable living standards to Western European states yet are able to maintain and expand semiconductor manufacturing.

        The issue is with policymaking - coordination between the EU, national, and local governments is weak so high capex projects become risky.

        • throwaway13244812 minutes ago
          > comparable living standards

          So vague as to be utterly meaningless.

          And slow moving regulation literally incentivises high capex long-horizon investment.

          • upupupandaway3 minutes ago
            >And slow moving regulation literally incentivises high capex long-horizon investment.

            What?

          • alephnerd10 minutes ago
            HDI is a good metric for gauging living standards [0]

            And slow moving execution and creation of relevant legislation is a hindrance for capex in high risk projects like those in the semiconductor segment.

            The Draghi report was published 2 years ago, and remains largely unimplemented.

            [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...

  • yomismoaqui39 minutes ago
    I'm european and I would buy an ASML t-shirt, will this move the needle enough?
  • t435627 minutes ago
    It seems to be "dump on Europe" day which I'm sure is popular but lets just stop for a second and ask what the sales of ASML machinery to the US would be without the CHIPS act .... a massive subsidy. Aren't subsidies supposed to be a bad European thing??? I'm confused. Are we free market proponents or planned economy proponents?
    • upupupandawaya minute ago
      I don't think this is the main point (subsidies). ASML sold nothing in Europe because Europe is not a factor in semi manufacturing, primarily due to regulations and bureaucracy.
  • Kim_Bruningan hour ago
    So currently europe is exposed to russia-ukraine, us-iran, and shortly china-taiwan. This is not a great place to be in.
    • odiroot27 minutes ago
      Our car industry (among others) showed we're quite capable of shooting ourselves in the foot. No need for external "big events".
    • kvgr20 minutes ago
      Yeah, weakness and appeasement gets that.
      • gib44412 minutes ago
        What would you do differently? Having to own the consequences, too, remember.
    • vconnor32 minutes ago
      No, but it is in times like this that one needs to look forward and invest in the future.
      • 25 minutes ago
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    • HarHarVeryFunny23 minutes ago
      European defense industry seems pretty strong
      • PorciiVorbesc22 minutes ago
        Compared to who? The US?
        • cromka6 minutes ago
          Yes. The US defense industry depends on European one. Take a look at F35 and where the components are made.
        • mahmoudhossam7 minutes ago
          Ah yes, the only country that matters /s
    • HPsquared39 minutes ago
      The beatings will continue until morale improves.
    • bilbo0san hour ago
      Not really much of a consolation, but it's pretty obvious that the standing committee is perfectly happy to sit back and chuckle while watching the rest of the world burn from that nice safe distance. So at least there won't be any china-taiwan issues.

      But that's little consolation I understand. I get that when there are two elephants sitting on you, someone telling you how fortunate you are to not have a third one on top of you as well, is a little annoying.

    • soco41 minutes ago
      The brainless policies continue as we speak: traditional parties keep you exposed to financial masters because money talks, and extremists keep you exposed to their masters because, again, money talks. So: money talks and Europe is still a good milking cow.
    • sajithdilshan30 minutes ago
      It more due to the fact that the politicians are on a moral kow-it-all high horse than being pragmatic and putting national interest first. As an example all EU leaders absolutely refused to talk with Russia/Putin on putting an end to the war and they were hell bent on militarily defeating Russia. I remember the previous German Chancellor had a phone call with Putin to discuss it and everyone was shitting on him for doing that.

      But now Trump is inviting Putin to G20 and I'm sure sure all those EU politician would be all smily and act like no war is going on and gladly talk with Putin. If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant.

      • MobiusHorizons12 minutes ago
        > If you think about it the war could have ended years ago and all the Ukranian/Russian lives lost could have been avoided if EU leaders were not so arrogant.

        How exactly is Europe to blame for Russia continuing its war in Ukraine? Russia has clearly demonstrated a lack of interest in peace on any terms that could be acceptable to Ukraine.

      • brokencode16 minutes ago
        How exactly do you think the war could have ended? With Ukraine’s surrender?

        Not such an easy thing to say if you’re the one facing that threat. Nobody wants their own country to be invaded and conquered.

        And Russia would take that as a green light to keep on conquering other former Soviet states. Where do you draw the line?

      • kettleballroll27 minutes ago
        That's a weird stance to take. If someone invaded a other territory next to yours and some of your unions members fear they're next, business as usual is the wrong strategy, imo
        • sajithdilshan22 minutes ago
          That's why diplomacy is important. There is no scenario that Europe, let alone Ukraine can militarily defeat Russia (a country with nuclear weapons). I understand defending the territory. But what is the end game? fight forever? or mutual destruction?
          • rcxdude21 minutes ago
            Kick them out so they gain nothing and have a credible enough deterrent they don't try again. This is also well below the stated threshold for Russia escalating to nukes but well above the threshold of military defeat.
            • sajithdilshan16 minutes ago
              what if they cannot be kicked out? fight forever till Ukraine runs out of men to send to war?
      • HarHarVeryFunny18 minutes ago
        The only way to stop Putin is with military force.

        Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it.

        • sajithdilshan11 minutes ago
          > Europe is of course well aware that war with Russia seems increasingly inevitable, and have been preparing for it

          What is the source for this? I have seen some news articles with this narrative, it was more on the line of fear-mongering rather than providing evidence.

      • bpodgursky26 minutes ago
        Sorry this is a crazy interpretation of events.

        Europe has 15x the GDP of Russia. If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

        Instead, the vacillated on importing US natural gas, continued shutting down nuclear power plants, and paid Russia MORE CASH FOR OIL than they ended up giving Ukraine in military aid! They did not in fact, dedicate themselves to this war in any way shape or form.

        • PorciiVorbesc19 minutes ago
          > they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

          We already did that. Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Plus we're also paying the price in higher housing costs thanks to housing millions of Ukrainians.

          It's easy to want a higher reduction on welfare services when you're not the one needing them. It's easy to write cheques that other people have to cash.

          • bpodgursky2 minutes ago
            Are you for real? Look into France's pension situation. The median pensioner has HIGHER INCOME than the median working adult. And retirement was at 62!

            No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care, the UK's triple lock ensures that the situation gets monotonically worse until the system collapses.

          • gib4449 minutes ago
            [delayed]
        • sajithdilshan19 minutes ago
          > If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help

          Why do you think an entire continent with multiple and (sometimes even conflicting with each other) culture, priorities, national interest would do that? EU is an economic union. Not a federation like US

        • HarHarVeryFunny9 minutes ago
          Europe has been stepping up a lot recently, given Trump's reluctance to push back against Putin - looks at UK/France supply of missile and anti-missile systems and IP to Ukraine, stepped up air defense based out of Lithuania (anticipating Kaliningrad as the first front of the war), etc.
  • petcat29 minutes ago
    > Another concern is that even advanced silicon produced in Ireland or at ESMC is then shipped to other regions for packaging, meaning that European companies have largely lost their ability to produce sophisticated chips entirely in Europe. In turn, this means that, for now, there is hardly any strategic point for European authorities to create demand for chips that are 'Made in Europe' because they are either not assembled in Europe, not produced in Europe, or not developed in Europe. We have no idea whether this is eventually going to change, but there are currently no signs that it will.

    This is just such a dire situation to be in. Even USA has seen the writing on the wall regarding China-Taiwan which is why it has been strategically re-homing all the most advanced chip fab technology to Arizona [1].

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSMC_Arizona

    • alephnerd23 minutes ago
      This was a major flaw that I and others brought up a couple years ago when the EU was consulting industry about making its own CHIPS Act.

      While bleeding edge backend processes got the bulk of reporting, the major push for the American CHIPS Act was the rebuild packaging capacity in the US (Samsung is working on this in Texas).

      This was also the same approach Taiwan, Malaysia, and China used to climb up the semiconductor value chain.

      The EU also failed to tie design capacity together as well, as semiconductor design capacity is almost nonexistent in Europe.

  • okokwhatever37 minutes ago
    Amusement Park continent. And yes, I'm European and know what I'm talking about.
    • Tade030 minutes ago
      You must be living in one of those nicer parts where tourism is present.
      • PorciiVorbesc24 minutes ago
        High tourism doesn't make a place more livable for teh locals.
    • nwatson27 minutes ago
      Sounds interesting. Now go make me a cappuccino before my next ride.
  • bethekidyouwantan hour ago
    What is perhaps more important from ASML's standpoint is that none of the ongoing fab projects in Europe are leading-edge fabs set to use EUV and eventually High-NA EUV lithography scanners. The tools that European fabs use today and that new facilities are set to use in the future are mature tools that cost considerably less than advanced EUV or immersion DUV scanners. This is perhaps a concern for ASML, as the company is naturally interested in selling its more sophisticated and expensive equipment.

    Missing from article is where they are selling which I assume is mostly Taiwan and America.

    • cl4244 minutes ago
      Bloomberg[1] has a breakdown based on ASML filings. For Q2, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan made up 77% of ASML's orders, with China representing another 14%. Given China is on the list, I imagine this includes non-EUV tech as well given the sanctions.

      The fact that Europe has incredibly limited frontier chip making capability is the issue, though. Even if they can produce other chips, its position is not at all resilient.

      [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-09-22/asml-exec...

      • HarHarVeryFunny25 minutes ago
        The US isn't in a whole lot better position. We've got Intel and Micron, but otherwise dependent on TSMC (and ASML).

        I guess the US chip designers could switch to Intel as a fab if they had to, but there are not even any US-made DUV machines, so far from self-sufficient.

    • HarHarVeryFunny37 minutes ago
      US is only 10-15% of ASML's sales
  • tehjoker43 minutes ago
    I can't imagine it is cheap to get EUV machines these days. Maybe they don't want to get into a bidding war with America and Taiwan and are waiting for things to cool down?
    • 28 minutes ago
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  • Culonavirusan hour ago
    They don't call us Europoors for nothing
  • 2OEH8eoCRo0an hour ago
    [flagged]
    • 43 minutes ago
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  • rvzan hour ago
    Europe has no money.
    • prerok15 minutes ago
      It's actually the other way around. All we have is money that we stole from the colonies.

      If the car companies actually go down the drain I have no clue what products of note we would still be producing that would continue to bring money in. So, I think our goose is cooked here in Europe.

    • __m21 minutes ago
      It’s all invested in American companies
    • yomismoaqui35 minutes ago
      And yet, more USians move to my "poor" country than the other way around. Make of that what you will.
      • PorciiVorbesc23 minutes ago
        >more USians move to my "poor" country than the other way around.

        Retirees and people who already made money to outbid the locals on housing and purchasing power.

        Why would they move to a more expensive country where they'd feel poor?

        • yomismoaqui9 minutes ago
          Emigrating is not an easy task (even with money), think why they do it and why the don't want to live on the country they were born.

          Think about it... a hint, it's not about money.

      • pb717 minutes ago
        The demonym is American, not whatever you wrote. Unless your poor country is New Zealand, that's not the case.
        • yomismoaqui12 minutes ago
          Being pedantic America is the continent. So a chilean should be as "American" as Donald Trump.
          • pb710 minutes ago
            No, it isn't. Everyone knows exactly what "American" means and it's never a Chilean.
      • TMWNN28 minutes ago
        That well-paid Americans like to WFH on Malaga beaches is not a testament to the Spanish economy, but to its weather and (more importantly) low cost of living.

        In any case, don't be too sure about your claim. According to <https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...>, 170K Spanish-born live in the US. By contrast, 69K US-born live in Spain <https://ourworldindata.org/where-do-migrants-live-and-where-...>. Given that the US (341 million) has 7.25 times Spain's population (47 million), this means that a Spaniard is 17-18 times more likely to move to the US, than an American is to move to Spain.

        • ar09 minutes ago
          This is… a mathematically correct but practically useless way to compare migration flows. Using this approach, Singaporeans are more likely to move to China than Chinese to move to Singapore. Mathematically true, and tells us much about the relative sizes of these two countries, but very, very little about relative attractiveness as a place of living.
        • yomismoaqui14 minutes ago
          And healthcare, better food, better public transport, security, human relations, lifespan... and above all, happiness.

          The american dream is dead, US is a country for working, not for living.

        • gib44419 minutes ago
          Absolutely also a testament to escaping Trump too. I have met many all over Europe, all ages – UK, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc who mentioned it. Including many previously living in California, Florida, Colorado etc with a decent climate, who were earning very good money.

          Definitely a testament to each country too - presumably they have a fairly wide choice. They wouldn't go somewhere they disliked the culture that much. We know how discerning US folk are.

      • marky199124 minutes ago
        If we were to take all preceding arguments seriously, couldn't that be explained by americans going to live in a low-cost-of-living country once they've earned their living?

        (Don't know your country to know if that's true or not, but it's a possibility)

        • yomismoaqui18 minutes ago
          Are you looking for money or are you looking for a good life?

          My country offers them both, people from lots of countries como here looking for money and also for a better way of living.

          The lesson explains itself.

  • joinHNtheysaid34 minutes ago
    Cultures that make, europe has lost that,imported a ton of culture that takes. Same as the us, empire might might be a ressource curse in disguise.
    • 4688542598536 minutes ago
      Are you saying the surgeons and phamacists practicing their trade on the streets are not an enrichment?