242 pointsby Markoff8 hours ago10 comments
  • softwaredoug8 hours ago
    FWIW, Naza appears to be a fairly in depth documentary where Israeli soldiers give detailed accounts on how the Gaza war worked from the inside, including expansive targets, and well known high civilian death toll.
    • lopsotronic3 hours ago
      The immediate response to the 10/7 infiltration attack was extremely lethal to Israelis as well, something not well covered outside of Israeli media.

      28 helicopters emptied their internal stores of 30mm autocannon and Hellfires that day, with many RTB to rearm/refuel, all of them at dense Israeli territory. Seven of them dumped their entire stores into Moshav Tkuma. To this day all deaths there are tallied to the infiltrators, with the exception of Efrat Katz. Rapid bulldozer burial of damaged vehicles and buildings was also performed, as the damage from those weapons is very distinctive. Not a gesture of honesty, that.

      Tanks were also instructed to fire their main armament into houses known to have civilians inside. Israeli corpses were, again, tallied to infiltrators; any non-Israeli corpses tallied as hostile.

      Pilots, soldiers, tankists, and UAS operators all asked over the radio for targets that day, but were simply directed to apply maximal fires to anything that moved in a Palestinian-like way. Hannibal was cited as justification. The Israeli Hannibal operational order, which directs the use of force to prevent soldiers being taken into captivity, was apparently being cited over the air to justify the deaths of civilians. An extreme distortion, but one which Israelis are increasingly making their peace with, alongside many others.

      • AuthAuth16 minutes ago
        This is a conspiracy that has next to no evidence to support its claims. Judging by your usage of extremely lethal im going to guess you think a significant % of the deaths that day were friendly fire. IDF have addressed both the friendly fire instances and the deaths were 14
      • cocoanana3 hours ago
        [dead]
    • monideas7 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • msarrel2 hours ago
    Who do they think they are? The United States?
  • Markoff8 hours ago
    • iainmerrick8 hours ago
      Yes - this is a very important story, but the "Reuters Connect" page is completely awful.

      Hey, let's present our story as a series of soundbites over emotive imagery and ominous music, that definitely evokes serious journalism.

      • trinsic28 hours ago
        I know it looks like an effort to deliberately fragment the narrative
  • vcryan4 hours ago
    Sounds very democratic...
  • 2Gkashmiri8 hours ago
    The classic "democracy" and "freedoms" paradox.

    Iran for example is accused of silencing critics, when everyone else does so as a "normal thing" but Iran is the boogeyman.

    I can only imagine the level of propaganda by Israel in trying to downplay their heinous crimes....

    • ImJamal3 hours ago
      I'm not defending Israel as the minister is clearly wrong here, but surely silencing critics by killing them (what Iran is accused of) is quite a bit more severe than removing citizenship?
      • datsci_est_20153 hours ago
        Funniest comment I’ve read all day, thanks. Never seen someone make light of a government rendering someone stateless. Especially rich in the context of an apartheid state.
        • ImJamal3 hours ago
          Are you saying your own comment is funniest your read all day? If not then I am quite confused because I never made light of anything and made it clear that it was the wrong thing to do. I just think comparing murder and removing citizenship is not a great comparison.

          If anybody made light of anything it was the person I was responding to.

          Israel has murdered journalists in Gaza. That would be the better comparison to Iran's actions. I don't think Israel removing citizenship has an equal comparison with anything Iran has done.

  • RobotToaster8 hours ago
    Of course this was flagged to death by hasbara.
  • jenders8 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • monideas8 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • ceejayoz8 hours ago
      Sounds a little fashy.

      Is it not possible to want to improve one's country?

      • monideas8 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • ozgrakkurt8 hours ago
          If you have members of your country that think the country is in the wrong and you tell them “then leave the country”… it should be pretty obvious.
          • monideas7 hours ago
            It should be pretty obvious what?
            • chomp7 hours ago
              It’s generally a fascist viewpoint to say that dissenters should consider leaving the country.
              • monideas6 hours ago
                [flagged]
                • dwaltrip6 hours ago
                  You've just changed your argument?
                  • monideas5 hours ago
                    This was always my argument. They’re very obviously lying but I should have stated that in my original comment. It’s so obvious that they are lying that I forgot to state that was my position.
                    • dwaltrip5 hours ago
                      Thanks for owning up to being unclear about what you meant. Other people can't read your mind :)
        • ceejayoz8 hours ago
          > Can you explain to me how that’s fascism?

          "We have lots of babies so it can't be fascism" is a really out-there argument I'm having trouble following. It's like posting "Turtle is purple ice cream 203-B"; I don't follow.

          • monideas8 hours ago
            [flagged]
            • ceejayoz7 hours ago
              > you live in a society which is non-viable

              I'm not certain "start a war with half the region that gets the other friendlier half of the region's entire economic engine blown up by Iran" counts as viable in the long run.

            • jst1fthsdys6 hours ago
              You live in stolen land, surrounded by people that hate you (the number which is growing daily), run by genocidal thugs who are on a fascist death drive. That is non viable, pal.
              • monideas5 hours ago
                [flagged]
                • jst1fthsdys4 hours ago
                  The cope is thinking Israel would survive without the fanatical material support the west gives it now.

                  Anyway, have fun going on about your Lebensborn. We all know how well that worked out for your predecessors.

                  • jesutere73 hours ago
                    Israel will survive because God is watching over her, as he promised 3000 years ago. And as he promised to watch over the Jewish people even in exile, and has protected them for 2000 years despite many attempts by many nations to eradicate them, and has brought them back from the four corners of the world to the Land of Israel, as was foretold in the ancient prophecies.
                    • jst1fthsdys2 hours ago
                      Tell that to the many jewish cultures that were eradicated by the Nazis in Europe.
                      • jesutere72 hours ago
                        Leviticus 26:

                        33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.

                        38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their ancestors’ sins they will waste away.

                        44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”

                • SauciestGNU5 hours ago
                  Our societies are both committing suicide by fascism. Do you think any country in the world will tolerate the existence of "Israel" in the wake of this genocide? I expect every single Israeli citizen who ever served in the IDF (most Israeli people) to have to face trial for conspiracy to genocide and crimes against humanity at The Hague. Participating in Israel's military apparatus has been clearly and openly genocidal since the Nakhba at least.
                  • 3 hours ago
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            • mrtesthah7 hours ago
              “Social conditioning” does not strictly determine the birth rate of developed nations. For that you must look at economic policy making it financially untenable to build a family. What you conveniently ignore here is Israel’s own economic policy of subsidizing orthodox jewish families, which is the main source of that growth.
              • monideas7 hours ago
                The economic argument is very obviously wrong. Poor people generally have more children, in the first world and then of course in the third world which does almost universally have above replacement birth rates.

                In Ancient Rome various tax breaks and other incentives were given to people to encourage them to have children, none of it worked.

                As far as the ultra orthodox go, non-orthodox Israeli Jews also have above replacement birth rates.

        • westmeal8 hours ago
          You've gotta be trolling I mean come on man
        • croes8 hours ago
          What has the birth rate to do with viable moral sensibility?
          • monideas7 hours ago
            If you have below replacement birth rate it means that more people die than are born, meaning that eventually your society will die out. By definition this means that your system of morality is non viable, it cannot produce a society that can perpetuate itself.
            • croes7 hours ago
              > meaning that eventually your society will die out.

              Because birth rates never change.

              You could also say a constantly growing population isn’t viable because resources are limited and at some point overpopulation leads to a collapse.

              But usually people adjust

              • monideas7 hours ago
                Generally speaking from a historical perspective, no society has ever recovered from low birth rates. Once you reach that stage it’s terminal. This has happened many times in the past
                • croes7 hours ago
                  Because historically low birth rates were the result of diseases, famines or wars but since the birth control pill it’s a decision.

                  Totally different scenario.

        • bentde25 hours ago
          This may have less to do with morals and more with populations adjusting their growth as needed naturally.

          The population of world Jews has still not recovered from the Holocaust, and needs exponential growth to catch up.

          Most other developed countries have saturated populations due to advances in medicine and life expectancy, and a downward adjustment wouldn’t hurt them, and is likely to lower the price of housing and food etc with lower demand.

          As soon as those populations go below a certain point, growth will kick back in - if only because the minority of the population who do want more kids will grow faster, and it will be easier for them as resources will have become cheaper.

    • metobehonest8 hours ago
      So Israel is a "developed world democracy", but criticism shouldn't be allowed and dissenters should be considered enemies?
      • monideas7 hours ago
        I said a developed country, “democracy” means different things to different people, it’s basically a nonsense term.

        Generally speaking dissent should be tolerated but there’s a line between dissent and treason. This is not something you can navigate or make sense of in a Western liberal frame since it has no notion of a society, only the individual, but also, again, Western liberal societies are dying (they have below replacement birth rates).

        • metobehonest7 hours ago
          Got it, I was unsure whether you were aligned with the "Israel is a democracy" discourse coming from US senators, Netanyahu, the EU and the like (https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spokestart030717, https://euobserver.com/29231/israel-is-still-functioning-dem...) or if you had fully embraced the de-facto militaristic ethnic supremacist ideology of the state.

          Your comments on "birth rates" and how western liberalism is decadent (or dare I say, "degenerate"?) make it very clear though.

          • monideas7 hours ago
            > militaristic ethnic supremacist

            These are all nonsense terms. They don’t actually mean anything

            • metobehonest7 hours ago
              They actually do. They mean you think there's a "chosen people" that's so special that it is morally correct to exterminate other peoples through military means so that yours may thrive. The terms just express this in a condensed form.
              • monideas5 hours ago
                If you have finite resources within a given area then there’s going to be conflict between different tribes of people in that area, regardless of any particular feelings or notions of superiority.

                “Militaristic” as opposed to societies which don’t have a military or who refuse to use it. This is only a concept which makes sense in a modern context where people are so decadent and neutered that this could even be a thing (not having any sort of martial capacity).

    • basisword8 hours ago
      They're both Israeli. Why should they leave their country? The right move is to expose the evils and try to improve it.
    • tomlockwood8 hours ago
      Should zionists leave new york because they don't like the mayor?
      • monideas8 hours ago
        If you are Zionist Jew then you should move to Israel, otherwise you’re not actually Zionist.
        • ceejayoz8 hours ago
          Now we're advocating ethnic cleansing of Zionist Jews from New York City?
          • monideas8 hours ago
            By definition if you are a Zionist Jew you would not be living in New York or anywhere outside of Israel, if you had the means to do so which nearly all Jews do given the support from the Israeli government, they will even pay for your flight.
            • ceejayoz8 hours ago
              A definition of "zionist" that excludes Chuck Schumer is a bit odd.

              Can you link a commonly accepted definition - encyclopedia, dictionary, what have you - saying that it requires immediate migration?

              • monideas7 hours ago
                Chuck Schumer supported sanctions against Ben Gvir and Smotrich and various other hostile actions during the Biden administration.
                • ceejayoz7 hours ago
                  That's the "Turtle is purple ice cream 203-B" thing again. It's flatly non-responsive to the question.
            • mhb44 minutes ago
              No, that's not the "definition".
          • heyitsmedotjayb8 hours ago
            Zionist isn't an ethnicity, similar to how Nazi isn't an ethnicity.
            • ceejayoz7 hours ago
              > similar to how Nazi isn't an ethnicity

              The people super-focused on "Aryan heritage" didn't have an ethnic bent?

              Huh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_racial_theories

              • heyitsmedotjayb7 hours ago
                Aryan would be a distinctly different category than Nazi. Similar to how Jew is a distinctly different category than Zionist. Please try to keep up.
                • ceejayoz7 hours ago
                  What would you say the average ethnicity of a Nazi typically was?
                  • _bernd4 hours ago
                    You could also be "volksdeutsch". Like slavik people from former German territory or at least German influenced. They could be proper Nazis but with for instance polish background. Don't ask me how it actually works out but you asked...
                  • heyitsmedotjayb7 hours ago
                    Some would have been Aryan, but you'd be naive to assume Nazism has exclusively white Aryan followers. And anyway, It doesn't matter. Ethnicity and political beliefs are categorically different things. You're engaging in an antisemitic trope by conflating Israeli and Jewish values.
                    • ceejayoz7 hours ago
                      Oh, come on.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

                      > Jews, or the Jewish people, are an ethnoreligious group and nation, originating in the Israelites of ancient Israel and Judah.

                      If the US forcibly kicked Jews out of NYC, it'd be ethnic cleansing. No one would contest that description.

                      • heyitsmedotjayb7 hours ago
                        Was it ethnic cleansing the way we persecuted and prosecuted Nazis post WW2? Despite them mostly making up and representing the Aryan ethnic group? Zionism is a political position distinctly different to Judaism.

                        Let me ask you a question - Can we ascribe blame to all Jews if the state of Israel were to do something bad?

                        • ceejayoz7 hours ago
                          > Was it ethnic cleansing the way we persecuted and prosecuted Nazis post WW2?

                          No, just as it wouldn't be ethnic cleansing to evict one Jewish person. We convicted a relatively tiny handful of Nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Georg_Kiesinger eventually served as chancellor of West Germany!

                          > Can we ascribe blame to all Jews if the state of Israel were to do something bad?

                          Certainly not. But kicking them all out of NYC would still be ethnic cleansing!

    • 8 hours ago
      undefined
    • croes8 hours ago
      You are confusing the current government with Israel.

      It’s the same as with the USA, the current government isn’t the USA.

      • monideas8 hours ago
        You will find that 95% of Israelis support the actions of the IDF in this war regardless of how they feel about Netanyahu or his coalition.
        • orwinan hour ago
          its a bit above 80% really.
  • duendefm8 hours ago
    [flagged]