123 pointsby mkeeter5 hours ago33 comments
  • legitster4 hours ago
    > WordPress founder and a key advocate for the open source community

    This should probably say self appointed advocate. He really hasn't advocated for much beyond collecting payments to Automattic.

    • runjake3 hours ago
      > He really hasn't advocated for much

      Like him or hate him, he grew WordPress to be one of the most popular open source projects of all time. It seems fair to call him a key advocate.

      WordPress is still GPL licensed.

      • legitster3 hours ago
        > WordPress is still GPL licensed.

        Only because it's forced to be because it in turn was a fork of a previous GPL license.

        It should be noted that Mullenweg has regularly weaponized the GPL license in the past - using it to take out other companies in the ecosystem like in their fight against Thesis.

        • ffsm831 minutes ago
          How does one weaponize a gpl license in this context?
          • scarecrowbob26 minutes ago
            You make the CSS and branding into a thing that folks are "discouraged" from distributing. That's most of the WP plugin and theme ecosystem, or was when I retired from it.
      • ValentineCan hour ago
        > Like him or hate him, he grew WordPress to be one of the most popular open source projects of all time. It seems fair to call him a key advocate.

        As someone who has contributed to WordPress: WordPress grew on the back of volunteers.

        It would be unfair to most non-Automattic "volunteers" if he was attributed all/most credit for what it had become, especially pre-Gutenberg.

      • scarecrowbob27 minutes ago
        I'm thankfully about 4 years out of making a living un-fucking WP sites but one of the strangest things about the ecosystem is about "for-sale" GPL software.

        It's felt somewhat unique to WP for sure, though maybe there are other examples where swaths of communities get big mad when people suggest distributing GPL software for free. I found it a little repellent, but lots of folks scraped together micro-scale businesses selling plugins and themes.

        I believe I made a lot better living building stuff for clients and then not caring about what they did with the software, but hey, I'm not the boss of folks trying to make a living supporting a $10 lifetime membership to an image size selecting plugin.

        Anyhow, my point is that there is at least a little nuance to be found when thinking about WP and open source software.

      • larodi3 hours ago
        LLMs will surely fix this ubiquitous position of WP very soon.
        • hungryhobbit2 hours ago
          Doubtful. Code isn't what keeps OSS projects going: people do.

          Claude can reproduce Wordpress with enough tokens. Claude cannot reproduce the community of maintainers, plug-in authors, users reporting bugs, etc. that is what any real user of Wordpress actually wants (if they don't want buggy, out of date software with security risks).

          • jmathai2 hours ago
            I think a large % of Wordpress usage is for simple websites that are better served by tools simpler than Wordpress. I'm not sure if you've tried to use Wordpress for a simple site. I did recently and it was a horrendous experience.
            • joeguilmette2 hours ago
              Ironically, the antiquated model of a bunch of source code and a database sitting on a computer is something coding agents really like.

              WordPress and a nice page builder with MCP is actually a joy to use, and the absolutely enormous catalog of plugins that are easily extensible and endlessly modifiable makes it so easy to work with when building via agent.

              Having worked with WordPress for over a decade, I find it hilarious that WooCommerce (the bane of my existence that has inexplicably paid my rent for a gigantic chunk of my adult life) is easier to use and better positioned for building with AI than Shopify.

              The future is actually pretty bright for WordPress I think.

    • ibejoeb3 hours ago
      I don't know... WordPress is a pretty huge open source project and community. He also opened Pocket Casts.
      • legitster3 hours ago
        If you followed his months of mad ravings, he made it clear that Wordpress is not a true open source project. He has direct control over the project via Automattic appointments in the community, everything is designed to route through his circuitous network of shell corporations and trademarks (wordpress.org is fully under his control and he personally owns the Wordpress trademark - which the "project" licenses from him).

        The only reason Wordpress is open source in the first place is because it's a just a fork of b2/cafelog and the original GNU license means derivative works have to be open source as well. (Lost in his moral crusade against WP Engine is the fact that he never really contributed to b2 besides just taking their code).

        • FireBeyond2 hours ago
          Matt made a big deal of transferring rights.

          When the rights were transferred to the WPF, Matt didn't disclose that the Foundation was essentially just him, and the two other nominal members were effectively absent.

          When the rights were transferred, and a big deal was made of this, "It now belongs to the WPF, which ensures that no commercial entity or interest can affect what should be a community project", there was no mention of how, on that same day the WPF silently granted a "irrevocable, non-expiring, exclusive universal commercial licence" to Automattic.

          Throughout all of this Matt has conflated Automattic, himself, WP.com, WP.org, the WPF to whatever is most convenient to himself.

          Matt says himself "I am WordPress.org. It's not a part of the Foundation", but you'd be forgiven for thinking so, given that the website resides on the Foundations AS network...

          Matt doesn't want WPE's "revenue-sharing" license agreement to go to the community, the project, or the Foundation, though, he wants it to go to himself, via his private, for profit competitor.

          Matt's claim, "My mom is confused and thinks that WPEngine is part of the open source project", is a deflection, and laughable coming from the man who runs wordpress.org as a "independent website" (that just happens to be running on the Foundation's IP addresses) and wordpress.com as a for-profit business. That seems just a little more confusing.

      • miguelxpn3 hours ago
        He bought Pocket Casts.
        • ibejoeb3 hours ago
          Then released under the MPL
          • miguelxpn3 hours ago
            Oh, I had no idea. When you said opened I thought you meant founded, my bad!
          • subarctic3 hours ago
            Nice i didn't realize it was open source now
        • stronglikedan3 hours ago
          Was it open source before he bought it? If not, then he indeed opened it.
  • autophagian4 hours ago
    Has very little to do with the current brou-ha-ha, but I just realised its “Automattic” because his name is “Matt”. It’s like a veil over the world has been lifted.
    • cwisecarver3 hours ago
      Relevant: Kumail Nanjiani learns about Automattic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHcrispG_rc
      • ValentineCan hour ago
        I've never seen this, but that comment at the end is priceless.
      • tayloramurphy3 hours ago
        This is great. I'd never seen this clip before!
      • autophagian3 hours ago
        Astounding.
    • vjvjvjvjghv4 hours ago
      That’s fast! It usually takes me decades, if ever, to figure out this stuff. One of the downsides being slightly autistic and taking everything too literal
      • rpdillon3 hours ago
        Yep, still can't get over how I missed the obvious arrow in the FedEx logo (it's embedded between the "E" and "x") for so many years. Super clever!
        • kpsan hour ago
          And ‘Fed’ has a spoon in the middle. (That may not have been deliberate, since even with overnight delivery my takeout still arrives cold.)
        • jb19913 hours ago
          Wait until you hear about the Beatles name.
      • moritzwarhier4 hours ago
        Also noticed it because of this comment chain.

        Not sure if it makes me autistic though, I mean, companies use wrong spellings all the time to differentiate, so often that I don't give much thought to it any more.

      • dnautics4 hours ago
        Hasnt automattic been around for a decade?
        • boothby3 hours ago
          It has, but I only learned about it when the drama started hitting HN recently. But since I learned about the guy and the company in the same headline I put two and two together right then and there. I've learned some suspicion of founders who name companies after themselves.
        • dpark4 hours ago
          Two decades. It was founded in 2005
    • brandall104 hours ago
      Someone made the same comment in the thread from a few days back. Yeah, it was the first time I realized it as well.
    • Hamuko4 hours ago
      At least his egotrips make a bit more sense after you realise it.
    • layer84 hours ago
      It feels like I see this comment in every single Automattic thread on HN. :)
    • benatkin4 hours ago
      Y combinator helped people notice it when they invested in a company called Automatic https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/automatic However now that it's been acquired that reminder of Automattic not being named Automatic is gone.
  • keane40 minutes ago
    There’s an old saying in Tennessee (I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee) that says “never strike a king unless you are sure you shall defeat him”. Bust in, guns in hand, and now find they’ve turned to sausages. (A tale as old as time.)
  • ebilgenius4 hours ago
    > Mullenweg responded to our inquiry, saying a blog post is forthcoming. When it dropped, it was about him buying a houseboat.
  • JonAtkinson4 hours ago
    This must be exhausting for the Automattic staff who just want to get on with their jobs.
    • legitster4 hours ago
      Anyone who wanted to get on with their jobs would have taken one of the buyouts. Everyone who still works there has to be committed to Matt.
      • BobAliceInATree4 hours ago
        Changing jobs can be rough or maybe even impossible in this job market. I'm sure there are many there that are not aligned with Matt, but just need the steady paycheck. Same was true after Elon took over twitter.
        • gruez3 hours ago
          >Changing jobs can be rough or maybe even impossible in this job market.

          Wasn't there a 6 month severance on offer?

          • jedberg2 hours ago
            In this market, 6 months isn't enough.
        • legitster3 hours ago
          The first buyouts happened before the job market fully tanked.

          I'm sure there are people who are stuck and have a house payment, but it was pretty obvious the shenanigans were only going to get worse.

          Also, if you're just there for a paycheck, you're probably not that upset at distractions.

          • noir_lord3 hours ago
            > Also, if you're just there for a paycheck, you're probably not that upset at distractions.

            Not true, I've worked jobs where I was there for the paycheck, I'd still prefer that it be a stable working and environment and still wanted to do good work.

            I'm happier when work doesn't expect me to be "part of the vision" or "part of the family", treat me with respect, I'll treat you with respect and do good work - that's all it needs to be.

            • legitster3 hours ago
              I mean, I'm currently working a job where I'm here for the paycheck. I fantasize about a buyout.

              My feelings are not "boy I wish I could get back at that grindstone". It's "this is the ride I signed up for"

        • threetonesun4 hours ago
          Applying the word "impossible" to leaving a white collar job seems like a stretch. Also the buyout was almost 2 years ago now, anyone still there must be either in dire financial straits or quite commited.
          • paul79864 hours ago
            That's until you find yourself in this job market and you realize now how stupid the digital creation job market and overall jobs are. Once you get laid (off) you are now you're in a pile of 100(edit 1000s) other applicants equally qualified vying for the same job and then hundreds of thousands who can all type to Ai to do a job that once required knowledge & skill.
            • zimpenfish4 hours ago
              > Once you get laid you are now you're in a pile of 100 other applicants equally qualified

              I'm assuming there should be an "off" after "laid"...

              • danabrams3 hours ago
                I don't know, I've had some years where without "off" would also make sense.
            • zdragnar4 hours ago
              Only 100? Those are good odds in the current market...
              • 3 hours ago
                undefined
          • quadrifoliate3 hours ago
            What reality are you living in?

            The software job market, especially for those of us outside the major tech hubs has been severely biased in favor of employers for the last 3 years, with constant layoffs and rising inflation.

            If I was working for Automattic I can definitely see electing to stay there until the job market improves.

      • 0gs4 hours ago
        or they just love wordpress, the product, so much, and believe in it fully. lol
        • TheRealPomax4 hours ago
          Or they need the pay. It's all well and good to go "they could just leave" but then what? Spend 6 months looking for a new job only for everyone to go "sorry, the hundreds of thousands of layoffs from every other highly skilled tech workforce beat you to it"?
  • throwawaymatt4 hours ago
    Just when we (the WP community) thought things were settling down and cooler heads might be prevailing... this happens. Uhg, not great for someone who has invested over 15 years into building with WP and does (paid) business with an Automattic company.
    • raverbashing3 hours ago
      Makes me wonder if he really is back or the board just "forgot" to take his account offline
    • mpweiher3 hours ago
      Time for alternatives?
  • ttul4 hours ago
    Most surprising in this article is the vibrant HDR magenta circle on Matt’s Twitter.
    • ValentineCan hour ago
      I remember seeing that on his avatar since the early days of the WP Engine drama.
    • edoceo3 hours ago
      What does that mean? Why is it a surprise?
      • klausa3 hours ago
        It’s surprising that Twitter even supports that.
  • minimaxir4 hours ago
  • eclipticplane4 hours ago
    I'm just glad to have my last projects off of Wordpress to get to no longer care about drama at Automattic that seems to never end.
  • walrus014 hours ago
    Doesn't he control 84% of the voting stock or something? I'm curious how a board could even oust him in the first place. Or so he claims.
    • jsnell4 hours ago
      The ability to appoint a board member doesn't mean you get to control their every decision. Nor is their fiduciary duty just one shareholder.

      Of course usually hand-picked boards don't go against their benefactor, and they're not keeping their seats.

      That they did in this case says something about just how bad the situation must be.

    • everfrustrated3 hours ago
      Depends on the rules of the company. Just because he can elect the board doesn't mean he gets to direct their every decision. They are supposed to have their own independent judgement.

      Depending on the company rules it is possible they might not be easily replaced during their term in which case they could do a coup in the short term.

  • sillysaurusx4 hours ago
    What is it about Automattic's structure that lets Matt stay in control? Even Travis got ousted at Uber, and he was the primary founder. Is the company set up in a way that makes removing Matt very difficult?
    • reticulates3 hours ago
      Don’t underestimate Matt’s disregard for corporate theatre. A board voting to remove a CEO isn’t like firing an employee, there’s an assumption that obviously the founder would not use their elevated access to retaliate. As noted, Matt controls the majority of the voting stock, but he also controls WordPress as a whole. Removing the founder who controls everything against their wishes is basically impossible. Even if removing his access to Automattic’s corporate systems was possible, it takes one “I’ll revoke Automattic’s license to use the WordPress.com domain” to convince the board to blink and Matt is back. Mutually assured destruction. The board probably underestimated just how petty Matt is.

      Travis, Altman, they’re egotistical but ultimately respect corporate theatre, they know that circumventing it is a bad idea, that one must participate in the grand performance, as Altman did. Matt doesn’t care, he’ll do as he pleases regardless of the consequences.

      If Matt was a rationale shareholder he would know that what he has done here is a death sentence for Automattic but alas he does not care. Matt will watch Automattic burn before he lets anyone usurp him. The irony is that as a supposed open source advocate, he’s harming open source, he’s showing how dangerous it is for investors to invest in the corporate arm of an open source project when the founder has absolute control over the project.

      • bigbuppo2 hours ago
        Hopefully the board will call his bluff, except he'll overreact in the most him way, wordpress will die, and we can all get on with our lives because there is no more wordpress.
    • manarth4 hours ago
      He controls roughly 84% of the share-stakeholder votes.
    • Havoc2 hours ago
      Shares. Boards have a lot of power but end of the day the shareholders can remove the board so have the ultimate veto
  • VCFundedGenYer4 hours ago
    When the CEO becomes a diva, the company has lost the plot.
    • efficaxan hour ago
      you'd think that but at least one CEO has turned being an annoying diva into being the richest man in the world
  • Ozzie_osman3 hours ago
    One sequence here could be the Board fired him (as CEO), then he removed/replaced the Board (as main preferred shareholder).

    Either that or he somehow has control over IT and is just shit posting and controlling Slack.

  • couldbeidkan hour ago
    What in the Ashes of Creation is going on over there

    Also shoutout Sarah Perez, voice of a generation! Epic pfp

  • pluc4 hours ago
    i'm gonna wait to hear it from the people who were saying yesterday they were in control if that's ok

    > As of yet, no one at Automattic has heard a confirmation from the board. Mark Davies’ Slack account was also deactivated, sources said.

    mhm, ok.

    • chuckadams4 hours ago
      Davies was supposedly the one who originally cooked up the whole extortion scheme against major players in the WP space. WPE was just the first target of many that were planned. Not that Matt is absolved in any way, but it'll be interesting to see what falls out if and when he throws Davies under the bus.
      • pluc3 hours ago
        That'd be the first time I hear about that angle. Mullenweg was pretty public about why he was doing it and it never felt like it was someone else's idea, given his level of commitment. It would be smart to find a scapegoat if you want to stretch your tenure a few years though.
        • chuckadams3 hours ago
          I should probably emphasize "supposedly": I get my facts from the same news rags as everyone, and I at least skim the court filings. Matt has held personal grudges against WPE's leadership for much longer than this most recent affair, so it almost certainly wasn't entirely Davies' idea, might not even have originated with him. But when the CFO discusses at length then signs off on such a novel revenue scheme, that makes him a co-conspirator at least. Barring a settlement, I imagine more details will come out in open court.
      • reticulates2 hours ago
        You give Matt far too much credit. Matt wouldn’t listen to Davies. Look at what happened to Automattic’s legal counsel, one HN comment that didn’t align with Matt’s world view and he was canned post haste.

        Davies perhaps explained to Matt how financially precarious Automattic’s position is but it seems very unlikely for a CFO to advocate for a batshit extortion plot that had no hope of success. Where did you hear that Davies was responsible for the extortion scheme? I haven’t seen that reported anywhere.

        • ValentineCan hour ago
          > Look at what happened to Automattic’s legal counsel, one HN comment that didn’t align with Matt’s world view and he was canned post haste.

          I remember this:

          https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41789765

          According to the legal counsel's LinkedIn, he left two months after.

  • CodeWriter233 hours ago
    What an absolute clown show. I don't see how anyone can trust WordPress (the company) going forward.
  • figassis4 hours ago
    Is it perhaps time to ackowledge that boards where everyone is buddies can't actually do their jobs, yet they get paid obscene amounts of money?
    • iAMkenough3 hours ago
      No different than how the Cabinet of the United States operates.
      • ooterness3 hours ago
        Is it perhaps time to ackowledge that cabinets where everyone is buddies can't actually do their jobs, yet they get given obscene amounts of power?
  • m4rtink2 hours ago
    So a final nail to the Wordpress coffin then ?
  • testycool4 hours ago
    Did someone make a site to track the timeline of the new WordPress situation, like they did with the WP Engine one?
    • wmf3 hours ago
      It's all the same situation. https://mullenweg.wtf/
      • Havoc2 hours ago
        Ouch. Having a website dedicated to one's meltdown is nobody's idea of fame
  • xnx4 hours ago
    Does Matt own >50%? If so, the board is irrelevant. If not, I assume he would've been gone long ago.
  • martin_drapeau3 hours ago
    What relevance will WP have now that AI can build websites? I see more and more vertical SaaS vendors bundling website migration/building/hosting in their offering. I suspect they may steel away many customers from WP, Wix and competitors. What do you think?
    • paulrei3 hours ago
      Wordpress' security track record isn't great, but I'm worried whether it would be safer if everybody builds their own CMS using AI. Yes, as a general-purpose CMS it has more attack surface, but there are more people working to harden and fix it than for all the little diverse AI-generated sites.

      I'd love the diversity of everybody being able to build the sites they want, though. Perhaps we'll see more static HTML/CSS/JS pages.

      Update: I love the irony that I just saw the sibling post arguing in the exact opposite direction, that the diversity might make it harder to exploit web sites at scale. Which is also a good point.

    • addaon3 hours ago
      One challenge is that if everyone uses AI to build their own websites, the security vulnerabilities will be different per site, which is very inconvenient if you want to compromise a huge number of sites simultaneously. It's possible that AI tools for exploiting websites scale to overcome this challenge, but it's going to be hard for AI to compete with Wordpress for security vulnerability density, uniformity, and cost.
      • martin_drapeau3 hours ago
        Sure but a SaaS vendor already handle security for their own products which are typically dynamic website apps. I agree security is a concern for clients doing it themselves.
  • bedroom_jabroni4 hours ago
    Damn it hasn't even been a week.
  • kvam3 hours ago
    I really hate this company and how they operate. Key example, they sold a «lifetime» plan for Day One that was quite expensive. I used it a lot and went for it.

    After they saturated the market for lifetime buyers, they started launching new features not included for lifetime buyers. Annoying.

    Then they started pushing advertising for upgrading. Very annoying.

    Then they started taking away features lifetime plan users had already. Infuriating.

    Then they made it so that support was only available for users on a subscription plan. My complaints weren’t even answered. Unforgivable.

  • tracerbulletx2 hours ago
    I honestly think the founder of a project can do whatever they want and they don't have any obligation to anyone except maybe their co-founders and early major contributors (and in his case as a CEO his employees and investors). If its too annoying for you don't use or contribute to wordpress. Is it a strategic blunder to pressure a competitor using his project if it harms users, I mean it seems like it was? But im not taking sides with a hosting provider competing with the founder under almost any conditions related to their business choices, or forming some kind of personal opinion on the person based on it.
  • iamleppert2 hours ago
    At this point someone should just make an API compatible clone so all the plugins, integrations, themes and such work and be done with Wordpress and all that muck around it. Can't be too hard these days with coding agents.
    • pathartl2 hours ago
      WP is GPL, just fork it.
  • whalesalad3 hours ago
    Everything that I know about Matt Mullenweg has been against my will.
  • 3 hours ago
    undefined
  • 3 hours ago
    undefined
  • benatkin4 hours ago
    It would have been just a matter of time before he displayed his power with the nonprofit and wordpress.com which he controls personally, independently of the Automattic board. Maybe that is part of why the board gave him his control of Automattic back so quickly.
  • 3 hours ago
    undefined
  • dbg314153 hours ago
    Directus is great. And free for small organizations and non-profits.

    Just saying, there are plenty of good CMSs out there now.

    WordPress is junky AF, and the spat with WP Engine over... of all things... how they store backups... it was all so cringe. Felt like it boiled down to WP Engines saying, "We don't need to keep backups on the live server..." And WP saying, "Oh hell yeah you do, you can't have your own way to do rollbacks!" It was literally insane for them to fight about that.

  • lellow4 hours ago
    [dead]
  • joleyj2 hours ago
    How does he get that intense vibrant pink color on his Twitter profile pic? It looks illuminated. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a color that pops like that before.