I assumed they wouldn't do it because they were marketing the nano-texture as a specialty thing for professionals and glossy screens were the popular ones, but now here we are.
On the note on this year's keynote. I can't be the only one who feels the whole vibe of the keynote changed. This isn't Tim Cook style keynote and John Ternus wasted no time to try and changed a few things already. I can't wait for John to further shake things up at Apple. But everything so far, all the small minor details suggest they are in the right direction.
A real vibe shift might not even be possible if they don't bring back in-person live presentations. Can't believe they flew all these people in to play them a video. Though seeing how John Ternus' hands were shaking during his demo with ishowspeed, I don't know if they have it in them to go back to live presentations.
And what was the surprise in "surprise and shine" anyway? The name of it?
Apple can't afford to have demo problems or presentation glitches anymore. Hence the system that they have now.
This leaves Apple and maybe a handful of subsidized third parties as the only people making applications for it, which is pretty much a guarantee that it will remain a tiny niche industry.
Basically Apple does what Chinese has done so far, 3d print a buffer to ease the crease. Oppo find n5, afaict, is the first one to do that.
Like first reply he literally says
> There is sorta one at some slight angles but basically no crease
And someone replied with a picture of it showing the crease.
It's probably fine and you don't notice it during use, but it's not some magic creaseless breakthrough.
It apparantly is a magic creaseless breakthrough... I'm eyeing one, and might put it on the Christmas wishlist...
If someone truly can't tolerate their phone screen being in any way perceptibly different from a single flat pane of glass, then they shouldn't buy foldables. It's something you have to get used to or ignore, with any brand. Especially over time as you bend and unbend the phone repeatedly and the crease deepens.
Apple isn't omnipotent, they have misses too.
The tech just isn’t there yet. Apple tends to wait until it is.
That said..I believe I’ve also seen some Chinese models ready claim this.
That said, I'm much more intrigued than I expected to be, to the point that I found myself thinking "maybe ...". Kudos to the team. The fold/unfold transitions are really slick, and I like what they've done with the extra side space.
The solution, of course, is the idea of leverage. 12 easy installments, or just lease it bro which apparently we’re doing now..for cell phones. But this solution isn’t sustainable. I’d have rather Apple not brought it to market it at all.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1wbx1wo/there_is_a_cr...
I could not disagree more.
There are 3 ways to fold a phone:
1) The trifold: A phone that folds out into a tablet. (e.g. https://consumer.huawei.com/my/phones/mate-xt-ultimate-desig...)
2) The clam shell: a phone that folds down into a more compact form. (e.g. https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/samsung-galaxy-z-flip8-5g...)
3) The book: an awkwardly squashed phone that folds out into two awkwardly squashed phones taped together. (e.g. https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/)
The trifold fits in your pocket.
The clamshell fits in small pockets (making it popular for women).
The book in a pocket is just uncomfortable (assuming it fits in at all).
They looked at all the folding phone formats and went with the worst possible one: the one that you can't fit in your pocket comfortably.
Further more, they looked at the worst book fold and decided to associate themselves with it by stealing its name, The S̶u̶r̶f̶a̶c̶e̶ Apple Duo: https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/
--------------------
Apple releasing this is exactly what it looks like when there's no one helming the wheel.
I can’t see it being comfortable to hold and type on at all.
I predict the form factor will be gone within two years.
My iPad from 2018 still has a full width keyboard so I have to hunt and peck which is annoying. I would hope that apple designs this better for the iPhone duo.
I'll probably wait and see how this phone does over the next few years. If it is still highly regarded by version 3 then I could imagine making the switch to a folding phone. For now I will remain conservative since my phone is such a critical piece of tech.
Basically, try to do the opposite of what HN is saying and you might just create a successful product.
And by "nobody", you mean "actually a lot of people, just not as many as the bigger model". It's ok to have a model that meets a less common, but still extant, need in the market. If everyone followed Apple's logic on this, people with very small or very large bodies would have to go naked because companies would go "that size doesn't sell as much, we have to kill it" rather than (as actually happens) charging more per unit to make up for the overhead of lower volumes of sales.
Personally I still like the "flip" style fold (normal phone size that folds into a smaller square). The lack of durability for the inner screen seems like less of an issue if it's protected inside (while folded). This seems like it really incentivises leaving it unfolded except for pocket use
Apple killed it because Mini 14s are illegal in Europe. There are tons in the US though.
We've Goodharted the entire premise of the profit-seeking corporation and now openly say that Goodharting it is actually the point. Maybe it should be called Meta-goodharting or something.
Edit: Since large numbers of 1) historically illiterate and 2) "ideas don't matter" type people tend to congregate on HN, it's worth saying explicitly that the takeover of shareholder primacy is empirically visible in all sorts of corporate behaviors.
The problem is not wealth. The problem is not producing massive value and capturing a portion of it.
The problem is thinking that the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth rather than to produce it and distribute it. Of the men you listed, only Vanderbilt supports your argument.
But Capitalism isn't synonymous with the free market, or any other market configuration, and it's totally possible for the people who control the means of production and distribution to... not produce or distribute. In fact, that may be advantageous in their efforts to secure more capital.
Ultimately, "they" really always have been greedy villains. Shareholder supremacy just made it worse.
Isn't the distribution of shares among the population instead of just a few private investors a good thing? Democratizing in a sense, everybody can participate? (If only wealth was distributed more evenly. But that's a different problem it seems.)
He did an AMA here recently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48477135
Shareholder primacy took off after Milton Friedman advocated for it 1962. The philosophy that it supplanted (in the US) was "stakeholder capitalism" where businesses explicitly sought to be positive contributors to a much more comprehensive set of stakeholders: their shareholders, their managers, their employees, their customers, their suppliers, and their communities (non-exhaustive).
The central conceit of capitalism is that you can co-opt the individual's greed and, properly constrained by laws and guided by markets, you can reward them for doing things of value for their community.
The question then is what philosophy do you build around that central greed-of-the-individual. Do you temper it with expectations of taking care of people other than oneself? Or do you fan it and unbridle it by saying, "actually, greed isn't the evil that we must co-opt to pro-social ends, greed is actually the pro-social end itself?"
It turns out that if you do the latter, business managers, shareholders, and regulators can collude to create extremely positive outcomes for each other at the expense of other stakeholders. You can save money by dumping your waste product into rivers, you can arbitrage labor away to infinitely far away lands, you can buy politicians, etc. etc.
How might regulators behave differently in a world where people believe a corporation ought to take care of its entire community, versus a world where the literal only purpose of a corporation is to enrich its shareholders? Quite different, probably!
Then all of this stacks on top of the natural "capital flows to capital" dynamic in capitalism which I'd argue is insufficiently mitigated, and you just get this ridiculous feedback loop that piles more resources and positive outcomes into a narrower set of people, while offloading more negative outcomes onto everyone else.
Obviously opting into a different business philosophy doesn't preclude negative outcomes, but I think that more budding business leaders could, should, and would essentially have their careers strangled earlier on if they exhibited antisocial traits if we had a business culture that didn't pretend like this was literally an asset.
Re your second question:
Assuming that shareholder primacy is the only philosophy we could pick from, then yes a market with many public shareholders is better than the alternative. But 1) not everyone is invested in public markets, 2) not all companies are available to purchase in public markets, 3) public markets are demonstrably not good at solving certain types of problems – especially problems that occur over extended time horizons or are easy to externalize off the balance sheet, and most importantly 4) costs-benefits are not zero-sum. You can't generally undo the harms of Company A by investing in its competitor Company B. It would be best if both companies' management felt they had an obligation not to harm their communities even if it could further enrich their shareholders to do so. It would be even better if investors in general felt both companies should have an obligation to take care of their communities or employees, and so companies lived in fear of divestment if they chose to violate their communities.
But in a culture that has opted into shareholder primacy, all feedback signals in this direction are removed. Regulators, investors, shareholders, employees, and the general public all pretty much believe that maximally externalizing harms and maximally capturing benefits is actually literally the way it's supposed to be.
Stakeholder Capitalism sounds like a much longer term success vector for most companies.
It’s easy in our industry to burn out doing commercial work with no soul. But it’s not the only kind of work out there.
I ended up moving to New Zealand and working for a small civil engineering firm that has developers to write internal tools that are used by the engineering team to process their data. The technology I'm working with is a lot more dated, the development processes aren't sophisticated (there are 0 meetings and no attempt at project management) and I took a real pay cut, but I genuinely feel that the software I'm working with is beneficial and has a net positive impact on the world, no matter how small. There is also no on call and I work exactly 37.5 hours a week, on top of all of the workplace culture differences in NZ.
Switch the work mindset off, turn your nose up at technology and go touch grass. I wouldn’t be recommending if it didn’t work for me.
If nothing else it helps reframe your perspective on the world which technology companies as of late have been trying to distort to enrich the dozen or so people at the helm to their own benefit..
A device that fits in his pocket and that he can still hold in one hand when he's using it as a phone, but that has enough screen real estate to run apps in large-print mode without constantly breaking UI designs, would meaningfully improve his life.
If people would at least use the power they buy... :|
Ah the fallacy of thinking a collection of individuals as being a homogeneity.
What you have is a "guess".
Maybe one data point is that this forum is open to all, without any gatekeeping based on salary?
If I was the receiver of such a loan, am I just going to give myself a huge salary, or what it is that you do, here?
siri is the great exception here. jesus christ what a piece of shit
Its like buying a porsch and driving it always at 100km only.
So yes, a toyota hybrid and a chevrolet hybrid should be exactly the same, but they are not, the price difference reflects it, as does the number of twenty year old toyota hybrids still on the road.
The biggest problem with my phone is modern software bloat. I only have the 64gb model. Modern software - especially iOS itself - has gotten ginormous. Every time a patch comes out I’ve gotta delete a bunch of stuff in order to update. And running unpatched software seems pretty dangerous right about now.
In fact iPads start at $429
And there isn't really any competitive tablet with Android in that size. I've only seen cheaper tablets with lower specs.
Apple is still the indisputable leader when it comes to hardware though. Great SoC, great cameras, great build quality.
Too bad it doesn't have GrapheneOS :).
Or is it more likely that software companies are making a tradeoff based on typical consumer hardware and would rather prioritize making $$$ over optimizing their software?
People who do this a lot probably just use a DV adapter (maybe it just works with USB-C, but I haven't tried it) for native apps, or casting for streaming video.
You could think this a bit further still, and have all kinds of devices offer an interface to nearby endpoints with a display or controls, establishing connectivity automatically.
I like that he's well into his life and still enjoying writing (or authoring, or whatever we call it now) code, and looks forward to a nice long life. No one lives forever, and I'm sure he's aware of that.
Edit: I don’t know of anyone 75 still coding outside of retired professors here and there. I am not trying to be an ageist. I just don’t think I will be physically capable when I am 75.
I am 65 and still enjoy software development (not coding in particular) but decomposing business idea into software architecture and functionality. Decomposing is the part I really enjoy, the rest is a necessity but with AI that rest takes way less of my time than it used to.
I do not work for someone though. I develop products for clients or for my own business, was doing it all my life and was doing it from my own office for last 26 years. Not overworked either. Have enough time to enjoy life. Al in all very happy
Instead, they just hand you some poorly documented loose parts in a box and tell you, “good luck” and you’re on your own to fill the gaps. Compose is a little better about giving the tools you need than the preceding Android Framework, but it’s still much more “assembly required” and “batteries not included” than the UIKit+SwiftUI world is.
Many iOS apps built using system components will behave 90%+ correctly on the Duo by just compiling against the iOS 27.1 SDK because there are well supported methods of doing things that Apple can leverage to reduce dev work. In contrast, on Android there's 10 ways of doing anything none of which get full-throated support (on top of all the other ways devs invent), and so any time it gains support for a new form factor almost nothing is automatic and it all falls on the devs’ shoulders.
WindowSizeClasses, Postures, Navigation3, ListDetailScaffolds, the list goes on. Android & Compose is pretty much flawless when it comes to develop for it, it's thoroughly documented and works well.
Layouts will not magically be not dog shit on iOS because Apple put out another version of SwiftUI that you can't use in prod because nobody has the update. 90% of the apps will be stretched. Horizontally. The reality of it is, it's pretty much never worth it to make layouts that are specialised for foldables/tablets.
Also, it's pretty fucking funny to be worshipping Apple like that when they have a single device to support, and then complain about Android that literally had to pave the way and today works on phones that can unfold three times, phones like the galaxy Z Flip that have instead half screens, etc. Apple will tell you they can't back port dynamic islands on last year's release, while latest Compose is happily running on devices from 10 years ago.
Yes, those are the loose parts. They still have to be assembled correctly for everything to work as expected and every app does it a bit differently (there is effectively no endorsed "correct" way to assemble them). This means that Google cannot extend them with new functionality later without breaking some if not most usages of those parts in the future.
Compare that to UITabController in UIKit, which has been present since very early on and got extended recently. If the dev adopts iOS 18 revisions, configuring that single view controller gets you more or less correct presentation and navigation across all sizes and orientations of normal iPhone, iPad, desktop, and now iPhone Duo and implementation is close to identical between apps.
> …and then complain about Android that literally had to pave the way and today works on phones that can unfold three times, phones like the galaxy Z Flip that have instead half screens, etc.
That's fair, but users can't reasonably expect any kind of meaningful adoption of new oddball form factors like that until the platform vendor (Google) rolls out standardized APIs to streamline the process (which Google has partially done, but won't commit to a unified solution for).
> Apple will tell you they can't back port dynamic islands on last year's release, while latest Compose is happily running on devices from 10 years ago.
That is an advantage, but iOS users tend to stay much more up to date so it's something of a moot point. The userbase of versions just three major releases behind is typically below 5% and anything older is fractional at best, so unless you're a Google-scale giant you're probably fine only supporting the newest 2-3 versions of iOS. That's pretty nice since I don't need to keep a drawer full of prehistoric phones running ancient versions of Android to test adequately (so I don't find out about some weird behavior that only occurs under Android 11 in prod)…
This is a quote from John Carmack and should sit over every developers monitor. At the same time, OS designers should be doing everything in their power to reduce the number of states a developer has to think about.
'You may only play audio if such and such conditions are met. However these are different based on browser and platform. Good luck making a solution fitting all these.'
'The browser might lie about what's the available screen estate is, but only sometimes'
'There is a perfect API for what you wanna do, however it's not in Safari'
And a testament on how obscure and arcane knowledge is on doing things right is that I thought there would be some npm packages that do these things for me, but no - you have to hunt around for solutions and fix things yourself.
And LLMs are completely useless and confidently wrong mostly about everything involving this.
If anyting, Apple stands to gain from what was already developed for Android.
Like https://developer.android.com/phones-tablets-foldables
Which targets iOS also: https://kotlinlang.org/compose-multiplatform
This is ignoring the fact that developers who choose these cross-platform frameworks don't seem to care much about quality and general polish.
"There are dozens of us!" (not me though, I wouldn't buy a Pixel foldable)
For reference:
https://media.wired.com/photos/593252a1edfced5820d0fa07/3:2/...
the phone-ness is exactly the same, but i dont think anyone actually needs a full tablet, but an unfolded screen is just right for say, reading a diff on the bus.
I was much more impressed by the phone->tablet fold than i was expecting to be.
It has a smaller display with a crease[1] and has less battery than a tablet. The screen is even smaller than an iPad mini. IMO that form factor only really works for like a Kindle.
And the screen has a matte finish which is only going to reduce contrast.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1wbx1wo/there_is_a_cr...
iPad mini battery life ~10-15 hours, iPhone duo 30+ hours so no...
Matte finishes are great for viewing outdoors too...
Maybe not $2k fun + inherent risk with buying the first generation of an Apple product particularly after the Apple Vision Pro, but still.
I think this will be a hit, but the $2k is a bit much for me to even consider getting one. Obviously they'll likely drop that price over time.
$2k is a lot to ask, but it answers the market 100% on “I’d like a Samsung Fold 8, but as an iPhone”.
That's 800 Euro less and Samsung will mostly decrease prices further while Apple will barely.
For iOS 27, apps are automatically automatically opted in to resizability. Apple was clear at WWDC that apps need to dynamically adjust to any available scene size at runtime, not just for iPhone Duo, but also for iPad windowing and iPhone Mirroring on Mac. There may be a grace period, but Apple hasn't shared one AFAIK.
I'm not trying to discount the efforts involved here, just pointing out that they aren't starting from scratch. And much of the required features to support a dual-screen (triple-?) phone has been in the works for a while.
Samsung has already worked out the major kinks for folding displays, over dozens of products used by multiple phone manufacturers including themselves, and Android has worked out how to handle the various use cases between the outer screen and inner screen, when closed, open, or partially open, so Apple can pull from the current state of the art and launch with a more fully developed product, as they usually did before the Apple Vision Pro.
It was not an early entry into the field. Many well established devices already existed. It was an uncharacteristic entrance into a niche.
Which is exactly what foldable phones are. 1.6% of phone sales in 2025 were foldable.
Maybe they will take off. But the odds are this will be discontinued.
The screen real estate is bigger than the numbers indicate, as the more square a display is, the larger its area is compared to its diagonal.
Let a video do the big reveal and overview then let the people talk about details or do demos.
I don’t know exactly toy. But there must be something with a little more life.
I wish they would stop changing speakers every other sentence though. I swear drone cameras were the worst thing to happen to video, I'm gettin seasick over here!
Apple employees get to claim very little ownership over their work (even in the context of a large tech company), so having all those speaker slots is one way they can provide that ego boost that is so crucial for long term employee morale & retention
I don't get this complaint. People talk with their hands, it'd look more fake if they just stood there all stiff and wooden.
They could certainly add features to make them more like general purpose computers, but there's a bit of product development and engineering "tax" they'd have to pay over time to maintain that aspect. Much easier from a product development standpoint to create products that provide a walled-garden experience, especially if that's what most customers want.
Maybe small phones are like sedans, and the bigger and bigger iPhones are the trucks? Take this analogy where you will.
[0](https://gs.statcounter.com/press/mobile-and-tablet-internet-...)
I think this is the tension. Or maybe we just need to master one handed keyboards.
[1]: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-patents-device-that-doc...
Edit to add: the phone itself is intended to be the main processing unit, the “laptop” is just a screen and keyboard.
What I need is a more portable iPad. But that would cannibalize iPhone sales.
With terminal emulators, tailscale, local and remote agents, there's never been so much computing capability accessible from your pocket before.
if they made it a useful computer, they couldnt charge 30% of revenue to their app store customers
You want what, a terminal that you type on w/an onscreen keyboard?
So I don't know what you're complaining about?
Although I can’t wait for the more powerful Motorolas with GOS to release. Maybe that’d be enough to make a phone my sole computing device.
-Installing software without App Store approval filtering
-True multi-tasking and background execution (though this hurts battery)
-Write iOS apps from an iPad
A MacBook is optimized for a larger screen and comes with a better keyboard and trackpad.
I use both my MacBook and iPad all the time, because their hardware form factors are better for different things.
I don't want to read books on my MacBook and I don't want to do development or writing on my iPad.
I briefly tried using my iPad as a Mac through the screen sharing. It's not as useful as you are imagining.
Absolutely sales of laptops would continue.
The areas where the iPad beats the MacBook are still (imo) the same as the day it launched: web browsing, watching video, and reading. Workloads that are heavy on the Apple Pencil too, but that’s a fairly narrow slice compared to anything else you might do on a computer.
I don’t see anything in my use case that I’d gain from a MacBook over this setup.
Let’s just ignore the price comparison though lol
I sincerely hope one day we can free these hardware devices from the shakles of their software and run anything that's possible.
Until such a time iOS devices are strictly off limits until at least a grapheneOS can run iOS at a minimum.
I don’t care for the 18 Pro colors, I still love my orange 17 Pro, and I’m not sold on the Duo (functionality or price).
I might still end up with a Duo but I’m very much on the fence. I’ll tell myself it’s for development/testing reasons, or just to play with the newest offering but I’m just not sure. I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did. Yes, it’s very different from the AVP and SwiftUI will almost certainly make this process easier but I’m still not sure.
Pretty sure that developer interest is not to be a problem. The Duo will sell more units in a month (or less) than every AVP ever sold.
Apple told developers in June at WWDC to not assume fixed screen sizes. Well-written apps will work on any screen size thanks to Apple's APIs.
Some apps will need to be tweaked to take advantage of some Duo features no doubt, but I suspect that's not going to be a deal breaker.
I may be swayed by a second gen Air in the spring, as I would like a lighter phone that feels less of an imposition in my pocket and my life in general. But it almost certainly won’t have the zoom camera, which has unexpectedly become one of my favourite and most used features of the 17 Pro. Why the two-camera phones all come with the ultrawide instead of the telephoto is baffling to me. Perhaps I’m an anomaly, but I never use the ultrawide lens.
except for those monthly payments you never get to stop making, yeah it's free.
Of course, these days a three or four or more year old phone is often still perfectly usable even for a tech enthusiast.
Apple can force iOS devs to do whatever they want. It may be basic support, but Apple devs will do whatever Apple tells them to do.
Or financing, paying it off over a fixed term, after which you own it outright?
The latter, I understand. And I'm also familiar with it.
But the former, I find hard to believe. Although, I'm not from the US. Are you telling me people rented nokia bricks in the aughts?
Like leasing a car, the residual value may differ, which can either make it worthwhile or not. Around ten years ago the lease deals were really good. Nowadays my carrier has all but discouraged them.
> Are you telling me people rented nokia bricks in the aughts?
Myself and my family did, for sure. My parents made me pay my own phone bill too, so I spent a long time in the Alltel shop staring at the different phones and probably annoying the clerk.
Or like many of us, you buy cheaper phones outright for your prepaid phone plans. The fact that people still go for contract phone services and finance a new phone every two years blows my mind. Especially when I can get all the data/minutes/texts I need for $15 a month on a service like Tello, and just get a phone for $200-400 that I can use until it dies. Which is currently a used iPhone 11 I recently opened up to replace the battery.
To this day, I suspect many people have a line-item on their Internet bill for their modem/router rental/lease.
Why you would find this hard to believe is actually the curious thing to me.
2. If you’re upgrading your phone on a one or two year cycle, you end up paying the sticker price minus the trade in value at the end of the term.
I don’t really see an issue in either scenario?
I just buy more shares of blue chip companies and let them pay in the future for anything I want to buy.
People have been leasing and renting phones since the 1930's. I guess you missed out on the Ma Bell century.
Where I'm from, it is common to finance a phone as part of a mobile contract: your monthly payment includes a device payment and the network subscription cost. Typically 24 months, but in recent years I've seen 36 month contracts as well. But at the end of the term the device is yours outright. No further down payments needed. Usually the device payment is effectively 0% APR over the 2 years, so it's a pretty lucrative deal. I've purchased all my phones this way over the past 20 years.
The Air particularly - the thinnest, lightest feeling, nicest to hold iPhone ever made, I think that might have been his favorite.
The Vision Pro is clearly an interesting category of device, Apple needs to be in, if it would have seen the light of day under Steve Jobs is unknowable.
He was ruthless at Apple because back then he had to be - now they can run Vision Pro and it not impact their ability run the business, if Apple had A product that did not succeed in the 90s it might have sank them.
I kept my 5S as long as possible, until my carrier wouldn't even provide cell service to it.
Jobs had products getting people out of their seats and applauding. New products, new industries. As opposed to now where Apple is following the herd and not leading it.
It feels aimless, and Vision Pro ironically is the best representation of Apple's complete lack of vision.
Apple these days has completely lost touch with what people actually want.
All the three product you mentioned is exactly the kind of things Steve Jobs did. Don’t make him into this mythological flawless visionary.
If they release a second version with a ultrawide and maybe tele camera, it would be perfect.
[Jobs’] advice to me was ‘Never ask what I would do, just do the right thing,’
He had watched Disney go through this paralysis of sitting around and talking about what Walt [Disney] would do. And he did not want that for Apple.
Wow, that quote should've been pinned at the top of MacRumors since 2010.
well, the product itself yes, but it would be the iphone, not the iphone air
Compromises are battery, no additional camera lenses. Single speaker. Some niche USB limits.
Battery life is fine overall but on days of heavy use/travel it’s noticeable. Single camera lens is ok but I do miss the telephoto on occasion. Single speaker gets made fun of online, but for any serious listening you’re going to use headphones anyway.
Charge speed via USB is lower than the pros and you can’t do video-out over USB.
*Thinner which means less battery.
The iPhone Duo is designed with this in mind. The aspect ratio any way you view it, folded or open, is preserved. Apple design knows a thing or two.
This is such a non issue given that iOS developers already have so many resolutions to test.
Of course it does. They show the most basic example right on the page, which is that you can side-by-side full screen apps.
Unless there is some upsight I am missing, I think the OP just "doesn't get it"
yes, you do. Two squares will fold together into the space of one square, and the same with 2 A4 sheets of paper, or two 8½x11 sheets of paper, two of them will fold together to make one of them.
In the context of this discussion, it is reasonable to assume that any "square" available to be unfolded is something approximately like the folding phone, consisting of two layers joined by a hinge. When you unfold that, you go from having a square to having a rectangle equivalent to two adjacent squares, and usable as two adjacent squares.
I.e. an aspect ratio of Sqrt(2)is the only one where the inner screen (full) and inner screen (half) match, and they seem to have tried to make the outer screen share a nearly identical aspect ratio too. I guess it's a nice consideration for more consistency in layouts for apps targeting the device. Not sure I'm particularly excited about that myself though.
but the context was "see, you can have two different apps running side by side, each with the same aspect ratio as either of the apps when run in the space of the folded screen. not only the same aspect ratio, but the same dimensions"
the whole A3/4/5 scheme is completely overblown as a feature for consumers. You format a document for A4, ok, but you wouldn't print that document A5 because the fonts would be completely shrunken. nobody does that. We use word processors to format documents for the space we have, and we don't ever print wedding invites on A3 or A4
“The mathematical brilliance of A*”
The sqrt(2) aspect ratio allows a portrait full app to be scaled up to the exactly to the folded out screen. But does anyone want that? You probably want to fit more content on the bigger screen, so some layout necessarily changes.
Both sides have the same aspect ratio as the whole screen.
> this isn't great design, it's tautology. of course the phone open is twice the size of it closed.
Well, it sounds obvious now, but before Archimedes, ancient engineers split their screens 60-40, so the full screen wasn't twice the size of either side.
If the user isn't going to be multitasking, then the app needs to additionally support the widescreen dimensions of 2X by Y, and the portrait orientation of Y by 2X. Both of these are so drastically larger overall that aspect ratio is a barely-relevant part of the UI layout problem, because nobody wants every button and text label to be double the size (which would mostly defeat the benefits of having the larger screen for anything other than multitasking).
The issue of the internal screen being the same aspect ratio as the external when rotated is completely separate.
Here's just the screen sizes, not even taking into account actual resolution:
iPhone (2007) 3.5" 74.0 × 49.3 36 cm²
iPhone 5 4.0" 88.6 × 49.8 44 cm²
iPhone 12 mini 5.4" 124.5 × 57.5 72 cm²
iPhone Duo, cover 5.4" 113.4 × 77.2 88 cm²
iPhone 6 Plus 5.5" 121.8 × 68.5 83 cm²
iPhone X 5.8" 133.7 × 61.8 83 cm²
iPhone Air 6.5" 150.0 × 69.1 104 cm²
iPhone 18 Pro Max 6.9" 159.2 × 73.3 117 cm²
iPhone Duo, inner 7.6" 157.6 × 111.5 176 cm²
But for the apps that don't currently support both orientations, it's possible they don't have support for switching aspect ratio on the fly. This design might help with those apps not completely breaking when folding/unfolding.
And the extra irony is I'm currently shipping an app that doesn't deal well with different size phones (just pads the edges), heh, so do as I say, not as I do.
second - main idea is about proportions, if you want to design apps that seamlessly transfer from one screen to another they have to have the same proportions of the sides. This is not a given and depends on the height and width.
If you take iPhone 18 Pro resolution : 2,622 x 1,206 doubling it would make the screen with 2,622 x 2,412 - almost a square screen.
They chose to have the folded phone to have 1.4:1 aspect ratio which is consistent when folded and when unfolded.
Also, when you rotate the device, the ratio changes. This is especially common when unfolding a foldable.
Most have the closed screen plus another view. Or the lock screen which is a full photo open and a small section closed.
Im not saying its not possible but it doesn’t seem like that is their intention.
Their selling point is: Not having to switch from one app to another when Multitasking.
I still think the broader point of there being design reasons to hit these ratios stands and is great. I just think the idea that it needed to be precisely twice the width so apps can fit full-sized doesn't hold too much because there isn't really a "full size" notion. Or if there is, the full-size is probably the double width one. If it wasn't exactly twice the width, most apps are already built to fit into varying iPhone/mobile screen widths.
Even if apps transition well between aspect ratio / screen size breakpoints, there is a cognitive load to maintain 2+ UI configurations.
Preserving aspect ratios eliminates these issues. It'll make every app better.
Despite all the responsive design tools and declarative layouts to ensure a great layout even on an oddball resolution... the fact is that in practice it's nontrivial, and remember that the companies that make most of the apps you use have finite design and QA budgets. They need to actually use the resolution in question in order to really do a good job of designing for it, and giving them double the work, for a $2000 and up phone which probably won't be super highly adopted, is a recipe for getting apps that end up with layouts that aren't optimized properly on one (or both) of the screen sizes.
At WWDC this year, Apple introduced a tool[0] to let developers arbitrarily resize their simulated iOS device screens.
Flexibility and adaptivity are more front-and-center for iOS devs than ever.
[0]https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/configuring-...
I also think that I (personally) don't need a front screen and would love to have whatever cost savings or improvements would come if there weren't one. This last sentence is of course a me thing, but I mention it because I think that if people start on the front screen and then open the Duo, they may just want the full screen app or something else entirely. I'm not sure the use case of being in your banking app device folded, deciding midway through flow to open it, and wanting to be in the same UI is really what I want. The part I question is what's going on that step 2 came about—I think it's either you want to go into more depth on it or you're just opening the device the way you would had you not been in your banking app.
The case where I open it to find the app using half the screen and then I have to press something or drag something to make it full screen is not that great (and isn't great today with current iPad window resizing). The best case I can think of for wanting the app in the same size format when I open it is for is something like multitasking, I guess we'll see how that looks or feels and how you get the second app open (or whether it's very common use case anyway).
In general, I've long felt the folding tech is for tablet use cases not for phone use cases. I think Apple's foray (finally) into it more or less validates that. Even though there will be a meaningful number of people buying it to replace their phone, I think this is largely because their phone use is already tablet use case-y (for entertainment especially). I assume many people will also buy it as a(n expensive) tablet replacement in addition to their phone, which is perhaps related to the timing of iPhone Handoff (same SIM on two phones) too.
Unless these things start selling like hot-cakes (unlikely at the price) a lot of developers just might not bother.
H/W = W/(H/2) (halving long side H and flipping maintains aspect ratio)
= 2W/H (multiply numerator and denominator by 2)
H² = 2W² (multiply both sides by HW)
H = √2·W ≈ 1.41 W (take the positive square root; H, W > 0)We still use QWERTY keyboards even though our highly futuristic typewriters don't jam anymore. We type commands on tty teleTypeWriter, we save files with buttons using a floppy disk icon, etc etc.
d = 7.58in = 192.532mm [1]
d^2 = w^2+h^2
Unfolded:
h = d/sqrt(3) = ~111.1584mm
w = h*sqrt(2) = ~157.2017mm
Closest ISO 216 size: A6 (105x148)
Folded:
D = 5.36in = 136.114mm [1]
H = D/sqrt(3) = ~78.5855mm
W = H*sqrt(2) = ~111.1366mm
Closest ISO 216 size: A7 (74x105)
I don’t think I saw a “us letter” sized piece of paper until I was an adult.
Apparently the reagan admin is responsible for making this our official government document size, and no one knows exactly why this size was chosen.
Or laugh at ourselves about it, which is what we normally do.
I think switching to metric would make far more sense than this.
On page 52 (57 of the PDF), there’s a letter dated December 18th 1978 (Carter administration, not Reagan) from the Congressional Joint Committee on Printing adopting 8.5”x11”, effective January 1st 1980 so departments & agencies could use up their 8.5”x10.5” stock.
I also found this article from Time from January 15th 1979 that this was actually slightly cheaper despite using more paper: https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0%2C33009%2...
The government adopted 8.5”x10.5” to save money back in 1921 vs what was already the industry standard of 8.5”x11”, but this ended up backfiring and a General Services Administration report in 1972 recommended switching to 8.5”x11” would reduce by 5% the amount of times a secretary would need a second page. The Joint Committee of Printing estimated this change would save several million dollars.
> On hearing the news, one straight-faced bureaucrat in the Government Printing Office said of his colleagues' reaction to the news: "Some people think that this issue has been inadequately studied."
Apparently the American Forest & Paper Association is under the impression that it was the Reagan administration’s proclamation:
> Oddly enough, the United States used two different sizes - the 8" x 10.5" and the 8.5" x 11". Separate committees came up with separate standards, the 8" x 10.5" for the government and the 8.5" x 11" for the rest of us. Once these committees found out about each other a couple years later, they agreed to disagree until the early 1980's when Reagan finally proclaimed that the 8.5" x 11" was the official standard sized paper.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120220192919/http://www.afandp...
Because one is used predominantly vertically, and the other horizontally.
As long as there's this landscape vs portrait difference, how does the aspect ratio similarity actually help?
This obviously makes life easier for both users and developers.
If I were to guess, this does look like a new ratio to support, but at least it's just 1 instead of 2.
Like Celsius - sounds great on paper, not any better (and in some ways, worse) in day to day weather/temperature.
One of the few exceptions I find is metric paper sizes. It's such a beautiful way of designing the sizes that is not only perfect on paper (pun proudly intended), is also totally practical in real life.
Speak to a carpenter or construction worker from any country with the metric system. Measure anything by simple powers of ten and simple decimal shifts makes life so much easier. Quick, what is half of a yard-length beam less 12 1/16"?
I don't know which is better. Considering how nothing stops you from doing decimal inches or fractional meters, but people rarely do that, both ways seem fine.
But also like, we have calculators…
The widest range of temperatures found in any country is the USA. In the continental US alone the temperatures easily exceed -50°C and 50°C in both directions (much colder if you include Alaska). The USA also has the largest temperature change ever recorded in a 24 hour period, at 57°C.
Merits of specific measurement systems aside, the USA is arguably the most representative single country on Earth when it comes to temperature and "how people feel". It has among the hottest, coldest, and most extreme temperature ranges ever recorded.
But as a way to describe daily weather (and thermostats) it's woefully inadequate.
The sum total of "comfortable" temperatures in celsius has to be squeezed between maybe 17 to 24 - why? you never ever use anything above 40 except when talking about people that died from a heatwave.
It's based on the freezing and boiling point of water _at sea level_ which almost none of us ever encounter (whether it's sea level, or the boiling point of water).
Fahrenheit is a much more intuitive scale (again... to describe daily weather or human temperature) - 0 - 100 better models the temperatures we experience daily, and you can intuitively separate into 10s, the way you "feel"
For example...
100s - honey, please, let's move to a cooler place.
90s - uncomfortably hot
80s - hot in the sun, not too bad at night
70s - you'd probably want a light sweater at night
60s - light sweater all the time
50s - medium sweater
40s - sweater, maybe a coat
30s - coat
20s - sweater and coat
10s - why am i living in this region?
0s - honey, please, let's move to a warmer place.
The point is that there's enough resolution to describe the actual human experience with temperature.
For everything else, celsius is perfectly adequate, totally agree.
The difference between 20 C and 20.5 C is not generally noticeable. The difference between 20 and 25 really is.
You’ll just have to face the fact that you feel comfortable with a really weird system that nobody else can see the point of, but it’s what you’re comfortable with. That’s OK, you’re allowed.
30° is perfectly comfortable for me.
You mean shifted by 273.15 because Kelvin doesn't have tidy fixed points at the freezing and boiling point of water, unlike Celsius and Fahrenheit.
Celsius and Fahrenheit are both utilitarian systems. Kelvin is the scientific system. Arguments about the relative utility of C° and F° are subjective and neither is particularly optimal for science.
To be clear, I don't have strong feelings. Obviously in a lot of science/engineering fields we use Celsius degrees a lot. But we also us Kelvin absolute scale a lot which would be ridiculous for day-to-day usage.
I am used to Fahrenheit but it is also a finer scale and a nice round number for boiling is largely irrelevant for the vast majority of purposes. Yes, knowing the freezing point of water can be important but memorizing one simple number probably isn't a huge stretch especially that the reality differs based on a number of factors. Arguably, knowing that 0 degrees F means fricking cold is sort of a higher latitudes bias but I'm not sure the degree to which Celsius simplifies.
Secondly, the highest temperature ever recorded outdoors was 56.7˚C. So no matter where you are, from that to 99 is wasted.
> Celsius isn't granular enough.
This argument would be reasonable if we didn't have to cut inches into 16 or 32 parts to approach decent granularity. At least we use decimal for cutting Celsius up...
All scientific and engineering use should probably eschew the customary measurements, even in the news. For example, in aviation, they use °C now unless your airplane is very old. Unfortunately, in the US we still use inches of mercury for pressure, both knots and MPH but never km/h or m/s, etc.
I do concede the overwhelming majority of people that argue that one is better than the other (both ways) are basically just arguing "the thing I grew up with is better" - because when you probe further, there isn't really any supporting argument, just "I understand this system better because I grew up with it" but it's equally vacuous coming from people who grew up with Celsius.
I came to the US when I was 12, so I grew up with Celsius but didn't pay attention to the weather as a young child. But still, I've lived in both systems.
It is nowhere near as useful day to day as knowing 0°F means a very specific saltwater brine mixture will likely be frozen, and 90°F is kind of as hot as your insides. Or 96. Or 98.6 as the third revision decided.
50 hurts to the touch, your chip has likely broken and given off its black smoke 30 is good for swimming in cold water >25 is worth worrying about sun stroke. make sure to drink a lot of water 24-26 is a nice summer day 18-22 is comfortable room temperature >15 is good enough shorts weather 0-10 needs at least a light jacket <0 you have to be attentive about frost bite, but not worried -5 either wants gloves or good pockets -15 wants a sweater and jacket < -15 you should probably plug in your car -10 - -25 is good downhill skiing weather -20 - -27 is right cold, full winter gear: toque, scarf, mittens, thick socks, the whole kit and kaboodle, but still chic -30 - -40: ski version of the full winter gear, including snow pants, double socks, and good boots. both your warmest sweater and ski jacket
----
its really just what you grew up with that will make sense.
like, wtf is 72 and 54 and mid 80s? i have no backing reference to put them into scale, even after living in the states for a decade. 500, 275, 425, 150 do make sense in F for me because thats what ovens list
In contrast, it's very reasonable to round temperature to increments of 5 degrees Fahrenheit. So for example 58F and 60F are basically the same temperature as far as my perception is concerned.
I grew up using C and now I'm using F, if I move to a country that uses C, I will switch again. Its meaningless.
"One fahrenheit increment doesn't feel like anything"
At least Celsius are grounded in reality, should I be worried about ice? Just check if temperature is below 0°C. But hey you may need to check if your solution of water, ice and ammonium chloride is frozen, so I just need to check if below 0F. That's probably something you do often right?
theyre both just arbitrary degrees though, since 0 isnt actually 0. they both have better alternatives too - Kelvin and Rankin. your criticism about freezing applies to celsius too. freezing is at a certain pressure and temperature, so both the 100 and 0 celsius only sometimes describe boiling and freezing
...making the point that Fahrenheit's 0-100 range is better suited to normal day to day measurements than 0-100 Celsius. The numbers that feel easiest to communicate with are scaled nicely relative to the range of temperatures you most often want to communicate about.
> It is more precise. Fahrenheit has more frequent degrees, allowing for greater resolution with analog thermometers.
this is really about the graduation and size of the thermometer? you can print a useful line pitch as you like, and have it represent what you want, where thats a 0.25C, 3F, 10c or whathaveyou.
everyday temperatures are pretty well centered around 0C, half the year above, the other half below, and the 10, 20, 30, and 40 increments feel quite similar to each other in severity of the season. +30 is damn hot and -30 is damn cold. +/-10 is all mildly warm or cold, with +/-20 really being where you do seasonal acitivites like swimming or skiing.
as far as western units go, C fits fantastically for the the traditional western culture with 4 idealized seasons. I could see F being better for places outside the idealized west - eg. the american south/sun belt, the PNW, southeast asia, south america, a lot of africa, etc where the seasons are different
It’s a terrific car if you want a great handling convertible at a low price point. As you said, it’s fun.
It’s not good at moving a lot of people or things, or going really fast, or lasting for 500k miles, or being as cheap as possible. Other cars are good at some of those things, but what is the Miata missing that is otherwise required to be a ‘good’ car?
Just didn’t feel it was an Appleish product.
1. After a while, I think dust would inevitably get in the hinges and wouldn't fold flat. I've seen demos in stores of newer gen Samsung foldable phones and it looks like those wouldn't fold flat
2. The inner screen protector eventually lifted off the screen, causing catastrophic damage, and requiring repair (under warranty thankfully)
3. The aspect ratios were weird. I ended up using native app sizes, making the extra space kind of a waste
One thing I did like about the Samsung foldables was that when they were folded and using the front screen, I finally had a phone that fit my smaller hands! It was nice being able to use my thumb to reach the other side of the screen. Will be interesting to see how this works out because it looks decidedly wider.
For your first point, the iPhone duo is rated IP 68 Dust and Water protection. Literally none of Samsung's book foldables so far have achieved this IP rating.
But I'd say it's the exception. In general it's better to wait for later generation.
what products _did_ have big leaps from v1 to v2?
MacBook Air -> MacBook Air 2: unibody aluminum construction replaced plastic, ssd option introduced.
iPad -> iPad 2: cut thickness and weight by 30 %. A4 -> A5 doubled performance. Dramatically better screen. Introduced the magnetic case ecosystem.
iBook G3 -> G3 dual usb: from colorful clamshell/toilet seat design to sleek laptop. 30 % lighter, half the volume, twice as durable, 2-3x the performance.
And… Apple I -> Apple II? Apple I was a motherboard, the II was a complete computer.
The dimensions are also close.
From a visual aesthetics perspective, I prefer the square edges of the Samsung Fold 8.
Eager to check out the reviews of the software capabilities of the iPhone Duo.
And I'm not sure about the inner screen's selfie camera. The under-screen camera has failed in previous devices, especially for zoom calls, it was abysmal.
Excited for the nano texture displays though. For far too long, Samsung had beaten Apple with non-reflective displays.
My biggest worry is the lack of Face ID. I love Face ID so much. I know I can do the Apple Watch unlock, but I don’t want to. I just want my phone to immediately look unlocked to me. and Face ID did that the vast majority of the time.
So I’m very curious to hear what the hands-on impressions from people are. Is the screen good? Can you notice or feel the crease? Is there anything else wrong? Is not having Face ID as annoying as I suspect?
At least there’s something really interesting this year. It’s more than just faster and better cameras, which is nice. And having actual aperture blades on the pro is great.
But this is more interesting.
Did they mention MagSafe?
I'm not sure if they mentioned MagSafe for the iPhone Duo.
That could be a deal breaker.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/biometrics-vs-passcodes-what-l...
Not around here it isn't. The iPhone Duo starts at $2999 for the base storage. The Fold 8 is $2399 and even the Fold 8 Ultra is $2699. This only confirms that Apple has been steadily pricing themselves outside what I'm willing to spend. Can I afford it? Yes. Will I get $3k of value from it? No. This one is not for me at this price.
It makes sense to have one screen for an as-large-as-possible uninterrupted display, and another for maximum utility.
I like that Samsung doesn't cut as much corner off as Apple, but ideally I'd like to find a manufacturer that doesn't cut corners at all. Even though I'm not likely to buy another iPhone product, I am excited that Apple doesn't cut holes in their interior display, because that'll probably get other manufacturers to do the same.
The Fold8 is $1,899.99 (street price significantly lower as usual), the Duo is $1999.
With Samsung, they're going to heavily discount it over the holiday season.
With Apple, the device is actually going to retain its value in the second hand market.
So there's this value argument that can swing both ways.
There's a perfectly good use case of using this device unfolded with their kickstand powered folio case and a portable keyboard — While getting some zoom calls and productivity / work done.
I don't mind folding. I think it's cool, and a nice way to get a useful space. But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands. This is even wider before unfolding.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
Volume constraints are bad enough for "normal" models. "Minis" have it way worse.
The iPhone 6 was a decade ago and was smaller in all dimensions than an iPhone 17 and had a perfectly acceptable battery life. Since then, they have removed headphone jacks and buttons, batteries have gotten more power dense, chips have gotten more efficient, etc.
But right now it's in a space where you're paying extra for the fact that it's a foldable, but it feels....budget in its specs? Like...how does that work?
[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263437/global-smartphone...
Apple's whole thing is that they don't do niches. Support a select few versions of select few products very very well is the whole MO
Apple can absolutely do niche products. Just not this one I guess.
They are thinking that VR headsets will not be niche products in the future
The apple watch was very niche when it came out as well, but their intention was absolutely to make a major product line
Phones got big.
The Mac Mini is an entry level product I see quite lot of people pick up. How is it niche?
It's a stationary computer that requires a standalone monitor, keyboard and mouse/touchpad. People just buy a laptop instead, a dedicated "computer" space at home is increasingly a thing of the past. And especially now if you can get the Neo for very similar money I have no idea why you'd buy the mini if your entire computer use is Facebook and maybe some word editing from time to time.
I'm sure they made money. But that's not the right question to ask, in my opinion. The right question is did they make as much or more than their internal rate of return (IRR)? Perhaps the smaller iPhones (I had one) do not so they cut the product line. Or maybe they over-purchased some components and figured they could make a phone or two out of them.
My use case is that I have terminals on various servers that I'd like to access when I'm travelling, and I'm often just doing short trips without my laptop. It's often inconvenient to schlep a bag with me just so I can use it on the train, so it's nice to be able to bring a phone that has enough screen for the terminal to not be tiny.
The first thing I had to teach was files folders and desktops. For many of them, Chrome was synonymous with computer.
I didn’t expect anyone to know DOS like I did at that age, but was a little shocked that “Save your file to the desktop” was gibberish to them
The cellular Apple Watch would be a great cell phone if all you want is to use your phone as a phone + iPod. But it’s hamstrung by its software and being forced to be anchored to an iPhone to be activated just makes it unsuitable as a primary device. We’d probably all be healthier as a society if we didn’t have the black rectangle of doom in our pockets all the time.
I’d love a cellular Apple Watch that’s elongated enough to have a headphone jack (lol) and all day battery life. It’d be fine even if it was meant to stay in my pocket instead of on the wrist.
I for one would love to have my phone turn into a tablet while I'm charging my car. Saves me from having to bring the iPad separately, which can't fit in my pocket. Would eliminate a step from that routine.
Also would love to always have that capability on me in the case where I couldn't have foreseen a need for the bigger screen. Being randomly out with friends and able to spontaneously just show them something in a way they can actually see would be nice.
https://makerworld.com/en/models/1022751-watch-phone#profile...
The first Apple Watches came in 38mm and 42mm sizes. That "large" Apple Watch is the size of the current "small" Apple Watch (42mm).
A large watch face has always been a style people into watches go for. It's not just a digital smartwatch trend.
In fact, fashionable youths these days are wearing those vintage Casios which come in at 35mm to 39mm.
Can’t imagine Apple ever doing this, though, because a round display is pretty terrible for displaying the sort of content and UI elements that iPhone/Apple Watch users are used to. Much of the UI and all existing apps would need to be completely redesigned.
Even better idea: Get a Casio FX-91 [1]. You'll get used to its shape pretty quick - like the 100 Million other humans who already have. Good chance it will still be produced 30 years from now, too, so if you lose it or break it you can get a new one. Costs a tenth of an Apple watch.
Until then, off to eBay we go. There are more than enough sitting around completely unused. You aren't missing out on much with 5 iPhone generations these days.
Intrigued by the Duo though
If there was a 15+ mini, I would’ve upgraded a long time ago.
So if you scored a 13 mini and a fresh battery you’d probably be overjoyed from that alone
I was a mini holdout forever but now it’s hard to imagine giving up the Air’s display
The whole advantage of having any screen at all when folded is something quick to access and *one handable*. Just looking at the Duo, it appears too wide for that by a large amount.
If I’m forced to two hand the thing I’ll just get a phablet: no folding mechanism, no unfolding step before using properly, no gigantic price hike (guessing).
Because the common user for some strange reason has come to prefer phablets to mobile phones.
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
And a lot of people who are not prefer smaller ones.
>I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
Not in the slightest. I've got a Galaxy A52, a large-ish phone for its time, and I can use it quite easily with one hand. I can't readily think of the small-hands equivalent of Shaq to compose a snarky "it's you" retort, and I'm sure it's not just you, but plenty people around you, with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
I was timed at 140+ wpm in high school and online tests / etc have hit close to 200 wpm on a Qwerty. So I CAN touch-type and do it well - and keyboard + mouse is my goto jam. My favorite phone (alas, discontinued way too soon) was the Photon Q (work gave us phones way back) with slide-out physical keyboard.
I "use" an S21, but even just entering my 4-digit pin is awkward with my left thumb - is there some other way to hold it? I can't even imagine trying it with my right.. My thumbs just cramp up..
Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
Tech people are like car people in that they don't really appreciate that their preferences are niche. Wanting a smaller phone is akin to wanting a smaller car
> with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
According to the US Army, the average length of the male thumb: 2.75 in; for women it's 2.49. So we can assume the actual population averages are probably a bit lower.
That means the average iphone is larger than the average male thumb, by a reasonable amount, and it has been for quite a number of generations.
Personally, my thumb is as wide as my iphone, but practically, the way I have to hold it one-handed means that I can only reach half of the screen (technically, the bottom quadrant, so 25% of the overall screen area). I'd need another 1" or so to reach the entire width of the screen with a single hand, and idk 2"+ to navigate the entire screen one handed.
The disconnect probably comes from what it means to "use" a phone one-handed. I mean to be able to hold it in one hand and touch anywhere on the screen and perform any action. Which limits phone size to around 2.25"x4.50", or so to account for a average hand to hit 95% of surface area while holding it. You might mean, just be able to type, or just be able to scroll, which does change things.
They funny thing is that the sales numbers were only terrible compared to other iPhones. IIRC it was something like 3% of the iPhone market at the time of discontinuation. Not a big seller for Apple, certainly, but there were times when the Mini made the top ten list for smartphones in general.
I developed a hypothesis when the phablets first started showing up and still feel it holds. There are two main clusters of users:
1) People who use their phone "on the go", specifically walking around and that sort of thing. Like I'm walking down the sidewalk and pull it out to check a message or see directions.
2) People who use their phone while stationary. Sitting on the couch, on the subway, on an airplane, that sort of thing.
People in group 1 generally lean towards smaller phones as the single handed usage comes in handy. You're not trying to surf the web doing this, so you don't need full usage, but you need to be able to hold it in your hand.
The people who are more stationary users don't have this restriction and they're more likely to want the full functionality when they're using it.
The original iPhone is tiny. Are you misremembering?
I was an iPhone 13 mini user for the last few years. I would buy a refurbished one off Amazon whenever my current one broke. I really prefer the smaller screen size.
Recently, I broke my phone again and my wife happened to have a larger iPhone laying around unused (through some accident of e-commerce). I felt weird buying a new phone when we had a perfectly good one laying around, so I decided to give it a shot.
I don't watch any video on my phone and most of my screentime is Kindle and Safari. My screentime is only like 2-3hrs per day. And yet, I still found myself chronically running out of batteries on the 13 mini. I actually now would prefer to keep my new annoyingly large 16e just to not have the battery anxiety.
(A hidden assumption in the above is that larger screens make more room for battery.)
I don’t plan to update it beyond iOS 18 though, and the Lightning port is becoming more and more of a pain over time.
Who wants smaller phones: Tens of thousands in lower end market.
It’s frustrating when you have an uncommon desire for a mass market product, I get it. But the answer to “why do they” is pretty obvious if you can understand that you’re not representative.
Similarly, Apple doesn't make a small phone because either: 1) It's too niche to be profitable. 2) It could be profitable but those resources are better spent on more popular products. 3) They don't know what they're doing or they hate money or something.
And other smartphone companies make foldable phones and not small phones because: 1) Foldables are profitable and small phones aren't. 2) That's not yet true but it's where the market is heading. 3) They all don't know what they're doing or hate money or something.
You're arguing for 3?
In any case, with Apple the commentary is always the same, if they release a small phone next year people will be saying „Apple knows exactly what they are doing, that’s exactly what the market wants“, if they don’t it’s also a sign they know exactly what they are doing. Anyone expressing their dissatisfaction with the direction of a product line „is in a bubble and doesn’t know what others want so should be ignored“. That has been the case since decades now.
That is it. Nothing else.
I went out of my way to make sure I found a "new" iPhone 13 mini for my corporate BYOD (needed for on-call, and I hate the cert they push so there's no way I'd use my personal phone...)
The only corporate phones they offered were HUGE, being required to carry 2 phones is enough of an annoyance already, but two full-sized phones is a nightmare!
Even Samsung offers their 'smaller than a normal phone unfolds to a normal phone' as secondary to the flagship fold. The Flip, to me, is almost marketed as a kid's phone for your teenager.
Because every time, they want it to be the next big thing.
it is kinda annoying, but apparently the consensus of modern design includes both lots of useless horizontal margins (lots of them just for the sake of visible rounded corners) and lots of vertical space taken by ads (iPhone 17 is actually 19.5:9, not 16:9, so ads take less vertical space on such a screen)...
and after a few months of using a larger screen I learned how to use it with one hand so it is possible - I rest my phone on 4 fingers and use thumb to interact, I only use two hands when typing (well two thumbs, but whatever)... but I still agree that the bigger the phone the more I'm worried it will fall down from my hand when operating it with one hand... the Max versions of iPhone do seem too large for me...
Others wrote complicated or bs jokes, here is my SIMPLE tip:
It has to change otherwise people would not buy new. Size can not change randomly so it has 2 ways: decreasing and later it becomes an iwatch, and tablet becomes a phone: this is stupid because harder to increase price.
So increase it is. If you do not like it, use a watch+earpiece as a phone.
The Duo’s folded size has the same screen size as the iPhone mini, so they did go on the smaller size, rather than trying to unfold a Pro Max. It remains to be seen how the aspect ratio impacts one-handed use.
I’d take a small foldable over a large slab.
Most people now days put their phones in protective cases, so the sharp edges don’t matter too much. And if anything, it makes the cases easier to design and smaller/thinner.
I found it interesting that the intro of the Duo talked about how it had 90% of the screen of the iPhone 18, as a way to talk up how big it is. They didn’t do this for the iPhone mini, and I think it’s why it failed. The iPhone mini screen was only .1” smaller than the 8 Plus, in a form factor that was smaller than the normal 8. I think selling it like that, as the base level iPhone (without the mini label) would have made it a success… but I’m still bitter they killed it off.
I have an S24 ultra and I had an even bigger Sony xperia a while back. I have an old iPhone SE ( the one in the form factor of the iPhone 4) and find it absolutely unusable. Typing is a joke.
I’m leaning towards getting an old iPhone mini - but maybe someone knows a better alternative?
But instead we got the largest screen before unfolding…
I'd love a tiny phone. I just can't see it anymore.
Wait until you get old enough to have to put readers on to use your devices like most older people do. And while I am yelling at the kids on my lawn, let me add every UI/UX person at apple - the idiotic and unnecessary choices they make for the sake of "cool design" infuriate me on a daily basis.
Are you a woman by any chance? I am currently typing this one handed on an iPhone 17 pro (not the pro max) and don’t consider my hands to be particularly large, for a man, but my wife has to two hand her android which is roughly the same size
If we go by history, consumers. And when Apple last offered a smaller phone, consumers did not go for it.
Or a smaller phone that is more expensive to produce. In which case, it won’t sell well regardless.
It’s easy to see how we got to this point of large phones, but it is not very clear how someone like Apple can make a significantly smaller phone and keep customers happy.
As you mentioned, other vendors probably will have better luck.
Some want a flagship model, some want a mid range, some entry level... all in small form factors and they won't compromise in order to settle for the one small model that's available.
I was listening to the Accidental Tech Podcast last week and Marco said that the iPhone Air has lower penetration, after 1 year, than EACH of the 12 mini and 13 mini _currently_ have. Among a tech audience.
We just had to replace a family 13 mini and it sucks to have to go with a huge modern phone. Personally, I'd also prefer a mini if it had the best cameras.
In 2020, the iPhone SE sold over 24 million units.
In 2022, sales of iPhone mini 13, iPhone mini 12, and iPhone SE made up 12% of total iPhone sales.
Thats despite intentionally nerfing every one of those models.
If you look at comparable phones, the iPhone 7 and 8 (4.7") outsold the iPhone 7 Plus and 8 Plus (5.5") by significant margins.
Nobody wants large phones.
> Nobody wants large phones.
Be serious. 88% of buyers chose something they don’t want? Apple is saying, “actually we hate money, so we’re not going to make a model that people want to buy”?
Why is it so hard for people to accept that maybe their preference isn’t the common one?
The market, in both Android and iOS land has dictated larger phones are more favored. This is abundantly clear with the advent of "foldable" phone sector. On paper foldable phones make no sense, they are less resistant, more expensive and use a plastic screen, yet the market is growing year on year.
I totally respect someone's opinion on a small or large phone, but even the largest iPhone is fairly easy to hold and operate using one hand. I don't have big hands.
As was clearly, painstaking explained to you already, using easy-to-understand language, the 4.7" iPhones outsold the 5.5" iPhones. And today 6.1" iPhones outsell the 6.7" iPhones. Every single time, without fail, smaller iPhones have outsold and continue to outsell larger iPhones of similar capability. This is an objective and indisputable fact.
This is patently false. It is widely known to be patently false. I cannot understand why you would confidently assert something commonly known to be patently false.
https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/apples-iphone-16-still-lead...
Every single generation, without fail, larger phones are outsold by smaller phones of comparable performance and features.
It's a new thing.
Not a phone. Not a laptop. Not an iPad.
It's an agent terminal.
That looks extremely boring and unexciting. It doesn’t look like it’s Apple, it looks like Xiaoco Fold Z Duo 16.
apple is always "late to the party" and regularly takes existing tech, polishes it to a high standard of UX, and introduces a new paradigm for consumer tech products. if xiaomi has ever done that please let me know.
not to mention that chinese consumer goods companies are largely siloed to the east anyways
The thing looks totally unpolished. The corners are horrible, the UX looks subpar.
It’s the first time I feel like Apple totally rushed a new product without any real vision.
*Xiaoco, I invented this ref.
When I saw that this new phone is 1:1.4, I instantly appreciated why it is that way. Metric paper wins again!
Like only allow A* paper for government forms or something that would force everyone to switch their paper handling infrastructure to A*.
No problem buying it either, though it’s about 2x the price of letter. (I go through about 100-200 sheets per year mostly due to my daughter drawing on it.)
I don’t actually store any printed paper since anything gets scanned and shredded, so no comment on long term filing.
(Due to this experience I recently partially switched to B5 paper, which is a nice size compromise instead of A5 which would be too small. Anything A4 will print to it without scaling issues of course, just takes up a bit less space.)
The main reason I'd want a bigger display is for more immersive content like videos, which are typically 16:9. On a Pixel Fold, you have all the added complexity of the fold to make the videos you watch on the train 1cm taller.
The iPhone Duo unfolds to be the same height as the iPhone Pro Max. Sounds like it has the exact same problem - a bunch of added complexity without a practical use for it.
-----
> Touch ID is integrated into the side button
Another major flaw with the foldable form factor - it's hard to distinguish holding the device e.g. to pocket it and holding the device to use it. My foldable does the smartphone equivalent of butt-dialing way more often than any phone I've had before because it likes to unlock itself when I'm putting it in my pocket
For media consumption on the go, I use AR glasses. They are considerably cheaper than the upgrade from an 18Pro to a Duo, and give you an absolutely giant screen.
I bought them to code more effectively on my laptop at my then girlfriend (now wife)'s house. The display was too pixely and distracting for me to code on. However, its plenty good enough for videos.
For videos I mostly use it with my phone (16 pro). Some apps are great (Netflix, AppleTV) and are smart enough to turn off the iPhone screen. Others (VLC, HBO) leave the screen on and burn battery at 2x-3x the rate of AppleTV or Netflix. I can watch AppleTV or Netflix on a coast-to-coast flight an still have plenty of battery left over. With HBO I use probably 20% battery per hour.
I have a Z Fold 8 in the same passport form factor and it has slightly rounded corners on both the front and interior screen that are symmetrical along both axes. The usable space on the front screen is greater without those edges as it's just a ... normal phone screen?
Am I missing something?
I don't think that was subtle shade...
That being said, short-and-wide foldables have been done before, they just never stuck around. Google should've stuck with it on their Pixel Fold, same for Oppo with the Find N.
Shame that the short-and-wide foldables took this long to become more mainstream, since to me it's been the obvious form factor ever since I tried the older Galaxy Folds.
Not that that's a bad thing. I absolutely loved the Surface Duo, it was my favorite phone until it stopped working correctly, and I hope other Android manufacturers take note of this, not just Samsung. It's just wild to see how similar this new Duo is to the original Duo.
In a completely clean room environment where a designer had never seen a folding phone, but had all the context of the iPhone and everything Apple had done, they would develop almost exactly the same design and features.
Designers have also been exploring the concept of foldable devices for literal decades, well before any reached the market. I have an industrial design and technology degree, we did a project in 2005 where we explored the designs around this, looking at the UI, the physical interaction, everything. My design had a similar aspect ratio and size, as I am sure half the student did my year and every other year they ran the project. (the iPhone Duo is about thousand times better than my design though!)
Thats not to say the Microsoft designers didn't do an incredible job, they did, but they were building on decades of design ideation from those that had experimented before them.
2. Receipts: https://postimg.cc/8sDTTT0W
I think this was a first year project, and a small correction: mine want quite the same aspect ratio.
A whole market of 1990s/2000s folding devices in similar categories, clamshells, PDAs, microPCs, palmtops, subnotebooks, handheld PCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_PC
This feature is also standard in existing folding phones. It's a pretty obvious feature tbh.
While the Duo is more subtle for some changes, it might show us the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning and getting a mature product to the market.
At least from their presentation, it looks like they sat on the fence and looked at pretty much any good or bad thing that happened during the past years.
Seeing some reviews on the Samsung Fold for example, mentioned the speakers feeling weird as the audio orientation is fixed to the speakers location. Those little details make a difference.
I really hope modern Apple would go back to the details and nuances.
That's actually the old Apple. Before the iPhone (and after Jobs' return) it was their standard operation procedure: the iMac was a refined workstation, the AirPort was a refined WiFi router, the Time Machine was a refined NAS, the iPod was a refined MP3 player...
Even after the iPad, they mostly cranked out middling stuff like the airPods, all the way to the Vision. They would take whatever good idea was floating around the hardware market, give it a careful polish, and sell it at twice the price. And there is nothing wrong with that - constantly chasing revolutions is risky (see the Vision).
The word "refined" is doing a lot of work here. Just a few examples:
- The iMac had a design unlike any desktop computer before it.
- While a couple products had come before it, AirPort was the first affordable, mass-market consumer Wi-Fi router.
- The iPod was the first MP3 player to incorporate the then brand new 1.8" Toshiba hard drives that enabled it to have for the time incredible capacity for the package size. And Apple innovated with the click-wheel user interface.
All three of these products most people would see as much more than "refinements" but actually big innovations compared to what was already available in the market.
Debatable, but it was still just a personal computer - sure, refined in exterior, but inside it was still just a workstation.
> AirPort was the first affordable, mass-market consumer Wi-Fi router.
Absolutely not. There were plenty already on the market. Was it the first one to have a name, rather than some crappy codename? Maybe. But mostly it was the polished version of an existing product.
> The iPod was the first MP3 player to incorporate the then brand new 1.8" Toshiba hard drives
It was still an MP3 player, there were already loads on the market - some even with similar capacity. It was refined in UI, yes.
> most people would see as much more than "refinements"
Most people with no knowledge of the market, maybe. Everyone in the space marvelled at the skills Apple displayed in taking existing products, refining them, and selling them like they were the first-ever products in those segments. That's when the "reality distortion field" was first described.
This is also why, multiple times, established players failed to understand these products would succeed - see the famous quips about the Zune and later the iPhone. Everyone knew those products existed already, they just did not grasp how Apple's knack for polishing (and marketing) could make such a big difference.
Utterly brilliant.
They are good design choices, which is different.
The curse of doing anything interesting with Android.
Remember... the Duo was supposed to be a cursed Windows 10-esque device. They brought on Movial to do a pivot to Android, then bought out the porting team in early 2024 to keep working on what they should have released in preparation for the Duo 2 (which is what they actually NEEDED to sell as an Android device at the time, but flopped in doing so).
I returned mine in late 2023. It wasn't the best experience and I was missing out on things like NFC dearly.
Something this expensive should not be that fragile year after year.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
Me. I get why people like small phones. But, I've have the iPhone Jumbo Huge edition for a long time now. I use my phone as a pocket tablet 10X more than as a phone.
Looking at the Duo specs https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/ vs my current 12 Max Pro specs https://support.apple.com/en-us/111874 it looks like the differences I care about are
1) 1878 pixels over 4.64" vs. 1284 over 3.07" 2) Default camera mode is 48 MP vs 12. Other modes are surprisingly similar. 3) A much faster CPU
I'm sure there are 1,000 more small differences. But, my 12 Jumbo Huge from late 2020 still runs great. If I were to upgrade, I'd get the Duo. We'll see how much longer I keep waiting, I guess.
if there was ever an iphone that was the size of the iphone 5 it would literally be over for me id pay 2000 dollars for it i dont care. there's literally no other options for small phones that don't suck right now i have looked exhaustively. the 13 mini is still the small phone king it's the best damn phone in the milky way.
I have bad eyesight. I've worn bifocals since I was 16, and I'm twice that age now. I literally used to carry around a 7" tablet in my pocket in college because I didn't have a smartphone yet. I want to be able to make things big so I can read them easily and not have to scroll constantly.
When I go for walks I only bring my smart watch. If I break an ankle or someone has an emergency we can talk. But I can't pull up a bench and doomscroll for an hour.
How? Most foldables I've seen have an inner screen with a ratio so bad that the full screen video results in mostly black bars and the image is barely bigger than watching it on the outside screen.
It almost feels like they make smartphones not to be handy tools for the digital age (who am I kidding), but for ultimate content consumption.
Maybe they only sell to 5% of users but they sell and at top prices, meaning more possible profit.
And you can’t grow the iPhone at the current sizes. Everyone who once wants at one of those sizes already has one. You either have to convince them to upgrade or switch, and those are both hard.
However, if you give them a choice of something they haven’t had before, it’s way easier. Get the people who wanted to fold and went to android and would like to come back. Get the people who have a max and want something bigger. Get the people with an iPhone 13 who are simply curious enough to do the upgrade, but otherwise would’ve stood still.
Gotta sell.
It also needs a kill switch. (Non parents will judge I am sure)
The device with good parental controls will be the go to for many parents regardless of practically anything else.
Lots of companies make terrible websites, but has been true since long before mobile phones existed.
Apple produces a "small" phone (S or Mini series) only every few years because that's enough to saturate that market.
But these days I pretty much need to buy different pants so the goddamned phone fits without dislocating my hip.
I literally just got 7 pairs of pants tailored with bigger pockets so they could hold my freaking phone without it falling out all the time. I would love a smaller more petite phone.
I don’t know what I’ll do when this phone becomes obsolete. Get surgery for bigger hands?
It seems mad to me that it wasn’t more popular. Though a lot of things that are popular seem mad to me too.
Stumbled on my old iPhone 5S in the back of a drawer recently and could not believe how good it felt in my hand, even having only used 12 and 13 Mini models since 2021. What an excellent form factor and construction. Would happily pay a big premium for a modern version of it. Dreaming of a sub-mini phone trend. Sell me a $1500 Zoolander phone—not even joking!
Absolutely no need to be rude.
Folded, I get, I want it to be a "regular size", but the only reason I don't like big devices is because they are clumsy to store in my pocket and use/grab one handed. If I can use it BOTH ways, now I have a choice. One handed for quick usage, and two handed for extended sessions. For $2K, yeah, I'm going to want a full fledged computer in my pocket.
Me! Sounds great. Ideally a full fold up laptops or some sort of HUD, but I'll take a pocket folding tablet for now.
There's also plenty of small Android phones.
It's not a 2000 buck problem though.
I'd like to carry my iPad and tether it to my watch instead of my phone, and just have those two and the headphones as my Personal Area Network. Nobody is even doing an all-in-one device anymore, but we keep pretending like that's the world we live in.
I'm getting this thing.
Changes in eyesight change your priorities.
Apple has been pretty consistent with cheaper iPhones.
That's a mix, people like phones of all sizes.
> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
But this question is silly. When your reference point switches from people buying phones to people buying tablets, there's a huge demand for tablets that are more portable.
From that perspective, the discontinuation feels more like an act of embarrassment by management than the result of a rational cost/benefit analysis. Given that reportedly the Air is selling substantially worse than the Minis, and I suspect the Duo will also fail to match its internal sales target because IMO Apple _usually_* overestimates the number of buyers willing to drop $2k+ for personal purchases (lots of corporations are willing to buy laptops for $2k+, but I suspect that almost all AVP/iPhone purchases are direct to consumer), I wonder if Ternus be willing to adopt a strategy that will keep profitable products around even if they don't meet their target. I suspect this is sort of an effect of the predictors being in some kind of high income bubble where _everyone_ they know has enough cash to drop $3500 to try out an AVP.
I had a Mini 12 and upgrade every 3 years, so I didn't bother with a mini 13. I ended up buying a base 15 and hoping that I wouldn't mind it, but my regret has only gotten stronger over time.
* Exception: they have dramatically underestimated the number of people wanting to buy high ram minis/studios for local AI.
I have worked for multiple companies that provide iPhones to employees, but neither of them would budget for the newest best version, unlike with the macbook pros. Companies know that if they buy devs computers with more ram and a bigger high resolution screen, we will get more done, but the main reason to provide a top end iPhone is as a perk.
Might be different with the Duo because I can see an argument for it being a better productivity device for people who need to send a lot of emails from a mobile.
The Duo has the same diagonal as a Mini when closed (5.4"), so I'd love to see them eventually embrace that size and release a 7:5 ratio SE or something similar.
I'm curious, what iOS are you running on it?
Everyone who buys larger phones instead of the iPhone Mini. The market decided that.
If you look at phone sales Pro Max out-sells the regular Pro
Regular people like big phones
You want a Zanco phone. They are tiny. Apparently designed to be small enough for prisoners to keep in their orifices.
- They actually might have nailed the hinge and crease problems.
- I've been excited for this release ever since the rumor of the iPhone Air being a prototype of sorts for this came out. Two iPhone Airs fit very comfortably in my hip pack (though I only ever have one at a time).
But at a $2K starting price, plus likely another $200 for the storage size they really expect people to purchase, in this economy, it is so far outside of my price range it is dead to me.
Which is to say: Cool tech, but I've already dismissed it as something I want evaluate for my next phone just based on price alone.
That's maybe the real death-nail for folding phones: Price hasn't yet shifted to allow them to be mass market rather than enthusiast phones.
If I wouldn't at the moment focus on developing iOS apps, the Z Fold 8 would be very tempting.
If I’m going to carry around an insanely fragile and expensive device I want to maximise screen area and aspect ratio.
I had written off dual screen when the square layouts were the norm, but I think Apple has struck a good balance here between screen size and price+chunkiness+serviceability. I won’t be holding my breath for an iPhone Trio. (Not to be confused with Palm Treo.)
The folding part is the thing the tech journalists say; done right, it shouldn't matter whether it's foldable or not.
Bigger screen, pencil support, nano-glass, etc. The foldable part is obvious, why say it?
They spent their time practicing to recite, instead of talk, to people.
So hard to sit through.
I had assumed that was a genuine, if not inspiring, reflection of Cook's controlled non-spontaneous personality. Relative to Steve's emotionally-rich casual-coded excited-to-share delivery.
It's so much cooler to me to see the people closer to the work talking about it rather than just Steve Jobs, as amazing as he was to watch. I'll take slightly stilted any day of the week as a tradeoff.
Ternus did introduce a new rhetorical thing, though. He framed some of the guiding principles during the opening and throughout as ideas originating from himself, not Apple. Cook rarely said "I" in relation to a claim, other than "I'm so proud of" X, Y, Z. That's a bit more product guy, a bit more Opinionated. I am hoping for more of that.
There’s a reason why acting as a profession exists.
I do think there's a general high-end corporate tendency these days to over-rehearse for big stages. I could name some CEOs who were doing it years ago. And I could name some CEOs who were terrible presenters but were very successful at least for a time.
That said, it's also the case that casually recovering from tech glitches is pretty key.
Jobs was a great actor in that he did not pretend to be excited. Whatever coaching is being given here is exactly in the opposite direction of acting.
But good actors trained more classically can be just as convincing by pretending.
One is not better than the other, these are just different approaches, both capable of delivering excellent or terrible results, depending on your skills and practice. Being excited doesn't mean you look excited to an audience and vice versa.
I think everyone knows how many hours they practiced and the depth of talent they could draw from. The inhuman consistency demonstrates a deliberate choice, that undermines their own message.
Care about impact wasn't just a Steve quirk, it was the reason keynotes were worth having.
Try saying "And one more thing..." in recent-Apple voice, without laughing or crying.
Comparing anyone at keynotes to Steve is challenging. He really was among the best at presentation.
But find a voice that works for whoever is presenting, or get different presenters.
The visuals and videos were excellent. The product was cool.
That's much much easier said than done. Sometimes the very rehearsed voice is as good as you're going to get, without the person being a professional lecturer.
> or get different presenters
It seems as though Apple is prioritizing having actual team leaders speaking about the products instead of just having hired actors do it. I'm perfectly happy with this.
But, yes, Apple has made the deliberate choice to have presenters who rehearse, rehearse, and rehearse. But many are not natural actors and will never be. You can mix things up a bit on a stage. But Apple does want a smooth production and puts a lot of money and effort into it.
The best presenters are those who have the natural affinity (or enough practice) to do method 2 really well. What we get from Apple (and most other professional-level speakers who aren't willing to take risks) is method 3C.
The only thing I can see is that it generates some clips for the presenters to share on their LinkedIn pages. I assume there is prestige in being selected as a presenter, and the rest of the show serves its purpose simply by existing.
I still enjoy Marc Benioff presentations. He's very engaging to watch, though not nearly as good as Jobs in terms of storytelling. I feel Jobs honed the craft more though.
Example 1,494,298 of “most people aren’t Steve Jobs.” Can’t believe we are still doing this comparison. In a few weeks it will be 15 years old.
But, he has been part of Apple for too long, and probably has internalized that style.
Hope he brings good change though...
Like no one is above reproach and def everyone is open to criticism, it to open a thread with 1200 comments and see this as the first comment was super annoying
So much stuff to discuss and we are focusing on some presenters tone? jfc
I wish there was a way to just put all criticism in a single thread and leave other thread trees for technology topics. Of course my first thought is a technology answer to a human problem.
That said, I simply couldn't sit through this presentation and did find it insufferable; and I've been waiting for a foldable iPhone for a long time. Having to close the presentation out of frustration tainted my purchasing decision.
I tend to agree with you.
I suspect the crossover area of the Venn diagram between people who spend what a foldable costs on a phone and people who have no other computing device is extremely small.
I'm sure most of us on HN use them for leisure, but for most people a computer is a device for work, not for play.
If another company could release something like the Duo that seamlessly switches between phone, tablet, and desktop experience and make it Apple quality then Apple are in trouble. The technology is all there since the days of Ubuntu Touch.
Sadly I don't think there is a company in a position to build such a device that could compete.
I personally would like to see the phones behave like iPads when connected to screens and mice and such. I don’t need it to pretend to be a full Mac.
But we all know they’re on the same OS at this point. iOS and iPadOS are completely identical, and this only makes it more obvious.
But I don’t want macOS on an iPhone/iPad. If I wanted a device with poorer hardware security that ran an OS with a fundamentally weaker security model I’d just buy a MacBook and be done with it.
Basically no one knows Samsung Dex exists. They could be the ones to bring it to the attention of the mainstream.
I like the idea that if I was stuck in a car dealership or something for service, I could just plug into a laptop docking station with USB-C and use my phone on a bigger screen. Realistically, I’d probably never do it.
But they also might be afraid it would cannibalize Macs, especially now that they have the Neo. And it would certainly just be one more thing to test and keep working.
It's possible that the audience for anyone that would plug in their phone to a KVM setup is just too niche to care. Just seems like with computing being so expensive these days, I really want to get the most out of my devices.
Running android in a DeX mode is fine, but its still android. Now that MacOS is already optimized to run on mobile chips, it seems so limiting that it can't run on iPhones just because of customer segmentation.
I don’t think Apple should or even would allow any sort of bare metal macOS mode on their mobile devices, but at least for iPads with M chips I could see them offering macOS via VMs. We know hardware acceleration works, there’s a working virtualization app that runs macOS at native speeds on jailbroken iPads.
I get why they do it, but it sucks that at least at minimum we don’t have a mode that turns it into basically iPadOS when connected to an external monitor, even if the performance and heat problems would be worse. But making that feature available and exclusive to the Duo would have made it more appealing.
If someone had that amount of disposable income last year, they might have it to throw at another upgrade this year.
It's the horrible form factor.
I listed the 3 ways to make a folding phone (with examples) in my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49636355
If they had chose either of the other two folding formats, and reduced the amount of screen they cut off in the corners, they probably would have had gold on their hands and shifted the market towards foldables.
Instead, they chose the bad one.
You can also see where they are going. In a couple of years, assuming it sells well there will be a Pro model with a 3x fold and better camera system. I'm guessing to make in thinner they will have to drop USB-C and come up with a flat charging/data connector. The EU won't like that.
The final interesting thing is this is the first Apple product that I can think of since the iPod era that they've released a product that will cannibalize another Apple product. If you were looking at getting a high end iPad Mini this replaces both phone and tablet.
There's been a proven market for years already, but it's been less obvious in Western markets. In East Asian markets, foldables have had a very sizable market presence, especially in China.
There's other trends that are less obvious to US and western markets, such as phone crossbody straps (which are also very big in East Asia).
I assume the people who would buy something like this have enough money not to care, and also would not care about the second part of my comment, because they want New Thing or use their phones enough for it to be useful.
I guess it might be the case that the only way to make the folding screen thing even remotely work is a very, very expensive manufacturing process. But as is often the case, I don't see how it's worth it?
I want my phones smaller and with Touch ID, not enormous and wrinkly.
Isn't that basically in line with the competition? Cheaper, even, than some of the competition?
If it means I don't have to put reading glasses on to use my phone, I'd pay a lot more...
But I think this could be really appealing for a large number of normies who have a phone as their sole computing device.
People have been saying “Oh my God, who would pay $600 for a phone“ for 20 years. Clearly there are such people.
A $10,000 car and a $80,000 car are going to be markedly different. Same for a $100,000 house vs a $800,000 house.
This $2,000 phone does not seem 8 times better than my $250 phone.
Well lets adjust the comparison you just made, then.
> A $10,000 car and a $80,000 car are going to be markedly different.
I can buy a Maserati Ghibli for under $10K on eBay and it will be very similar to the $109K Ghibli that Maserati would sell me today.
That's why they're $10K.
Meanwhile for about the same price differential, $10K on eBay will get you an Audi RS 5 ... engine ... with 60K on it.
I don't know that the Ghibli makes the point you want to make.
Is this foldable 4x better than your SE 3? Almost definitely, by every metric, except size if you're into small things.
However, maybe you can't buy a house there. For that you'd have to be a millionaire.
If I'm going to have to two-hand it, this is perhaps not the worst. Also, it might be more one-handable when closed than regular iPhones.
Is it very expensive? Yes, especially if you don't opt for the base storage (256 is not enough in the age of LLMs). But I've not upgraded in 5 years, so I've got budget to spare.
> I assume the people who would buy something like this have enough money not to care, and also would not care about the second part of my comment, because they want New Thing or use their phones enough for it to be useful.
But what's the monthly price with Apple's upgrade program? I'd bet that's how most people will be buying it (me included, if I decide to get one).
I think it's going to be very interesting to see how well the sales for the Duo do in year two and three. I suspect sales will go up, but wouldn't be shocked if they drop.
In comparison iPhone Duo only offers a bigger screen and even limited functionality when it comes to camera if you compare it with iPhone 18 Pro.
Here’s a flashback: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/original-iphone-review/
I had a large, relatively well-paid, tech-savvy circle of friends (and many random strangers) who openly envied me but could not justify the price point.
The numbers back this up because iPhone sales didn’t start hockeysticking up until the next version was released, which allowed carriers to further subsidize smartphones with data plans that brought the upfront costs down to $200.
The iPhone was as much a technology revolution as it was a consumer financing one, but it is never discussed as such.
The phone carriers then upsells their more expensive plans.
1: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/07/apple-upgrade-launche...
And those who want to boast, can of course buy for the full price. This is a non-zero share of the target market.
You misspelled “you’re overcharged for your mobile subscription and get a phone”.
There's enough buyers in the market.
> iPhone Duo uses Touch ID, which is integrated into the side button. This gives you an easy, secure, and consistent way to authenticate iPhone Duo, whether it’s closed or open.
Probably no way to do FaceID from under a display yet.
/s
So you pay $1368 for the privilege of using the Duo for 2 years.
purchase fee = device list price – lease payments made – remaining discounts or trade-in credits.
If you're paying $1368 over 24 months, you could pay the remaining $632 after those 24 months and keep it with 0% interest.
Is that leasing or renting in your country?
Is that leasing or renting in your country?
Is the difference between renting and leasing even meaningful? You chose a car rental agency for your example because it costs more per month to rent from a short-term rental agency. What is a lease but a long term loan? What difference does it make that I rent my apartment by signing a document called a "lease agreement"? Am I a renter? Or a leaser?
Renting/leasing is not automatically bad. The terms are what make one a good or a bad deal.
> Is the difference between renting and leasing even meaningful?
Where I live, yes. If you lease you are the owner, with the financing company having the ability to seize it when you don't pay. If you rent you are not the owner, but are allowed to use it. Renting is a bit plebeian.
Leasing is a financial construction where you actually own the product / property, with the bank having the option to claim it if you fail to pay.
> a financial construction where you actually own the product / property, with the bank having the option to claim it if you fail to pay.
This is called financing - basically, buying a thing with bank's money which they give you as a loan. For high-value purchases, there are often limitations on what you can do with the object, or requirements (like a requirement to have homeowner insurance for mortgages), but there are usually less restrictions compared to lease since you are the owner.
Renting is you pay $X a month and when the contact ends everyone walks away. You don’t get the thing back, the other party does.
Leasing is close but slightly different. You still pay $X, you still don’t own it and can walk away at the end.
But with a lease you are given a choice to buy the thing at a pre-arranged price when the lease is over. So when you sign the contract you know that at the end you can pay $700 and it’s yours. Or you can still walk away.
It’s far, far more common with cars. The dealership guesses how much the car will be worth and offers you at lease based on that. If the car is worth more at the end of the lease than your buyout price, you can buy the car cheaper then you could, on the open market. If it’s worth less, you can walk away. You didn’t lose as much as you would have if you had gotten a loan, and you could go buy the same car used if you wanted for less.
For something like a phone, I’m not sure it really matters that much. So I don’t know why they decided to do leases.
Plenty of arrogant Americans use that term
and of course they can voice it, it's just boring; the point being there are more than plentiful amounts of folks that can trivially afford it.
“Ceramic Shield 2 on the outer display reduces glare and provides 3x better scratch resistance than the previous generation”
Will this fit in a woman's hand?
Maybe the answer lies in only wearing an Ultra watch if it becomes powerful enough and can function independently of a phone.
Daily life is ok with it but most of the issues come from banking and governmental apps.
I wish society was not as keen on making everything go through smartphones nowadays.
After looking one up... https://www.engadget.com/img/gallery/apple-iphone-duo-announ... It looks awkward to hold.
no
This lead them to use a garbage CPU and support it for something like 2 years.
Apple has the balls to keep updating the vision pro even after it flopped and it will probably get 7 years.
I will say it was a pain in the ass to open and answer calls though when you were busy doing things.
But without that, I don't see the use for myself. Though I also rock a 13" iPad Pro so even with that it would be a hard sell to replace both.
I still am not sold on the entire idea of a foldable, there is some interesting things here and I will be interested to see how they position it over the next few generations.
Even though I like the form factor I doubt I’d cash out 2k for it, seems like a waste just to spend more time on another screen.
Other than that, looks like there are some nice Duo specific features on iOS. $1999 is also surprising given that news outlets were reporting up to $2500. Plus it's price competitive with other foldables in the market.
It’s too expensive for me to even dare to have, but I do want to use it
But if there’s no particular improvement in the user experience, I would prefer the base model of the iPhone 18 coming out next year above all
What I’m most looking forward to on a foldable iPhone is viewing photos
I really love that sharp, fresh feel when viewing photos on the iPad, and I’m excited because I think I’ll be able to experience a similar feeling on this foldable iPhone as well.
It's just too big, and too metal.
The form factor is good. I hope things move this direction.
More broadly, it's interesting that the movie has a beautiful future aesthetic that influenced tech most in the recent years. The muted colors with natural materials mixed with ubiquitous tech that was in the background of a human in a humane world where people mostly walk places. I feel like the AI company aesthetic barrowed a lot from that movie. Right down to their office furniture.
Now we just need to make a phone OS to put something like that on that isn't locked down. Forget the year of desktop linux. I am waiting for the year of phone linux. Android doesn't count.
In this economy?
Feel like a $2000 computer in the 1980s made a lot more sense, even if damn expensive back then. Certainly would have lasted longer!
So I’m in the market to buy new ones of each.
So I’m now having to decide if I just buy the Duo … instead of a new phone and new iPad.
But seems like a worse phone and worse iPad - than standalone.
(it does look like the best foldable I’ve seen though)
iPhone 17 pro glass is insanely strong
And really, poor sales are no excuse. How many macbook skus do they have that barely move when you go through all the permutations of config? I don't want to work it out but I'd guess there are something like 24 skus of macbook pro they are barely selling in comparison to iphone sales. What's another model iphone in 3 storage tiers?
For context, Apple sold 6 million minis, most Android manufacturers (other than Samsung and Google) can only dream of that volume.
Apple can do it, they just choose not to. It’s not like AVP is a roaring sales success.
I doubt they lost money on it. I’m guessing they just “didn’t make enough“ and decided it would be more profitable to spend that money elsewhere.
I will say as a software developer it was rough getting things working on that tiny screen.
But I know people loved it. I have family members who did. And I totally get it. But it just doesn’t seem to be a big enough part of the market for any of the big players to care at all.
I spent a few hours researching the other night on what replacement phone I'd buy, and.... the answer was a refurbished 13 mini.
I believe Samsung has a new one with a similar form factor too, though I haven't looked into it.
> I’d love a phone that was roughly normal iphone sized when unfolded but was a flip phone à la Motorola razrs in years gone by.
So the Razr does seem pretty comparable to what they were requesting.
When I was 12-13 I started taking a steroidal inhaler which inhibited my growth, so my hands are literally the same size as when I was 13. (maybe slightly wider).
As such I have about the same finger length as the average woman, and when I used the iPhone 4S and 5S I had no problems, I was not able to comfortably use the 6 with one hand, and it came with that ugly camera bump, so I returned it and tried to go Samsung. (it was big, but the rounded edges helped a fair bit) - the software sucked.
I bit the bullet and went back to my 5S, and when the SE (2nd gen - shaped like the iPhone 5 but with beefed internals) rolled out it was a day 1 purchase for me.
Ever since then I've been looking for a phone -- the iPhone "Mini" was as large as the 6 which was too large (I did buy one though) -- I eventually bought an iPhone 15 pro, but honestly, I hate it. It is the heaviest thing I carry daily and it doesn't do anything more than my 5 did that i care about, and I can't comfortably operate it. I start really disliking mobile devices because of it- and the software is getting worse year on year too.
I'm getting serious fatigue from this, but the world has not only caught up to a mobile world, now many things actively expect/require you to have a modern smart phone, especially in Sweden.
Put MacOS on it and then we'll talk
100%
The market for a phone like this is extremely small and the price makes it even smaller.
The old "Apple is different!" attitude was replaced with a police state.
Do you expect hn being an uncritical apple fanclub?
This is a gorgeous design.
Yes.
>Nothing is "genuinely beautiful".
Not sure.
>You can't just call something beautiful
Yes I can.
>and have everyone agree that it is in fact "beautiful".
Of course not.
Edit: Wow, I didn’t know Samsung foldable was priced similarly. It’s a lot of money to pay for something inherently fragile.
Plenty of people on HN earn that much money in a single day after tax.
I'm just not seeing the value proposition for a $2000 phone. I already can't comfortably hold or type single-handed on the normal-sized Pro.
For those people, $2000 is a good price for a device that does all their digital work.
Obviously Apple knew where other foldable phones fell short; they clearly planned to overcome those shortcomings.
Matching their top competitor in price is a good look.
They could’ve absolutely floored everyone if it had been $1500, but there’s no way that’s possible, at least having margins anywhere near what Apple likes.
Thank you
For foldable phones, this might be a good pick to get caught up (5 months old, but minimal crease): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFUB_jL_XcM
The reason it doesn't actively crease is because it's not like a piece of paper you press on to fold: the screen "rounds" itself, and as long as it doesn't go past a breakpoint (which is what the body of the phone prevents), it'll restore.
Aside: I'd also love it if it could be plugged into an external display and have a "desktop mode" (like a macos VM) that gets suspended/resumed on connect/disconnect instead of just expanding the "mobile mode" across the new screen. I realize this is probably a dream too far for most companies though, as it doesn't allow them to segment the market as much as requiring people to buy multiple devices.
Also time to work out the hardware and software issues. Not trying to spend serious money on beta testing like a Vision Pro.
$2000 for an iphone, just insane.
Also Apple: We've done it the exact way Samsung and Microsoft did it! We even used the same Duo name as Microsoft!
It took me a while to figure out I had to click "Explore" to get to the specs, so I'm saving you the trouble.
As long as I'm griping about the web site... Apple, when you introduce a phone with a new and different form factor, please just tell me the dimensions straightaway. This one is shorter and wider than most phones. Is it too wide to fit in my pocket? I need the dimensions to answer that question.
I'm still salty these were removed from Samsung folds after the Fold 6, but having a thinner phone is nice too.
"You're folding it wrong."
https://www.macworld.com/article/3229342/iphone-price-increa...
My previous thought was to use XReal glasses with my existing iPhone but that’s not realistic in an office environment.
They should've used the iPhone mini width, and adjust height to that.
Super skip..
I've long thought that the aspect ratio of a normal phone just feels old fashioned now and sucks for most tasks. So many times I go to do something on my phone and reach for my laptop instead because I know it'll be easier. But with this I could do most things on it.
Look at the low end iPhone’s slowing getting better screens, TouchID, and then FaceID.
It would have made an even larger splotch of the screen look odd.
No way I prioritize that kind of cash on something that only runs mobile-tier software.
It kinda sounds like it's a new model of the Apple Pencil coming soon (rather than support coming soon), and older Pencil and Pencil Pros will not work at all. Which, if true, boo.
The 512 GB version for $2,199 seems like option you’d really want as a minimum, and then you’d need to add AppleCare on top of that. Pricey!
I even forgot about this. God damn it, I enjoyed the SE so much because of this.
Notably, the inner screen has a nano‑texture finish (which Apple normally upcharges significantly for), which implies it is glass.
I haven't looked, but am guessing the probably exists on other Apple specs pages.
I'm on the fence! I do like a bigger but not too big screen for movies on planes etc.
The one downside of my iPhone 13 mini is the rare case where I do need more screen.
I couldn't spend $2000 on a phone, but I don't mind the direction.
https://photos.reportinglive.com/p/2026-09-09/f-bf86c6f5adb3...
Is Apple screen enlargement over the years just matching the aging eyes of their core demographics? Close focal vision degrades, hold phone further, bigger phone useful.
Kind of like the stat how burning man is getting older every year cuz its mostly the same GenX cohort going since forever...
What I actually need might be less of an iPhone and more of a nano than a duo. Something small and portable that doesn't make me spend every spare second on the phone.
They’ve been doing Touch ID instead of faceID with some of their products a few times, I think some of the iPad models? but unfortunately touchID has like a 20% success rate with my fingers. FaceID works 100% of the time for me. I’ve never had good luck with any fingerprint scanners. I hope they can someday solve the issues with FaceID under the screen.
I wasn’t going to buy this product anyway. My current phone works and I have zero reason to upgrade. But if I was in the market, no facial recognition is honestly a dealbreaker.
A dumb one off the top of my head:
When reading a book with both screens open, have the outer display show the cover of the book, and closing and opening the screens together causes a page turn. (Unfortunately also a great way to rapidly wear out the hinge mechanism.)
https://osxdaily.com/2006/12/06/macsaber-turn-your-mac-into-...
That being said, this is the device I always wanted. Something between an iPad and iPhone.
Most people I see out and about are either using face time, or inexplicably speaking in speakerphone and holding the flat, face up, with the bottom of the phone towards to their mouth in a weird awkward way, or they are using headphones, wired or wireless.
This has to be on purpose.
Looks like a cool device though.
More seriously though, now do just the front screen on a non-folding device. It can even remain as thick as this thing when it's folded.
Imagine being able to hook up a small slab to a keyboard or mouse Bluetooth then connect to a monitor, tablet or hotel tv, like the Samsung Dex can do. And run full laptop/desktop applications. One can dream
The problem is I want to have small phone that can be expanded to have large screen when needed, glad I’ve solved this decade long conundrum!
And, I don't think I've once missed having the big annoying clunker of a watch.
This is about a new folding phone not the watches.
(I am glad to hear you like your watch though. Casio are classic).
There's definitely something satisfying about a product that's both cheap enough that it could be disposable but well designed enough that you actually want to keep it forever.
I think that Jobs would approve of the Casio F-91W.
Like yeah.
Honestly - if it wasn't for the incessant nagging me to upgrade, letting me know it's going to upgrade, letting me know it had failed to upgrade, and the never ending useless notification that I kept having to edit/unsubscribe/remove stupid apps that I never installed - I probably wouldn't have switched for a short period of time.
What I would have never predicted is how getting rid of all that noise has just made me so much happier.
Also - didn't realize how much I hate having to charge my watch every 16 hours.
What I'd love to see is a modern Sidekick. The form factor was basically perfect.
I really don't get why people spend so much on flagship phones! I tend to aim for $200 Motos for me and my family, and it feels like it's a 90%+ solution at a tenth of the price. I can still browse the web, text with people, make calls, listen to music, and take pictures. They still last for years, and if they get dropped and the screen cracks, it just means its time to upgrade. What am I missing here?
It sucks. I wish that would change, but that is what made me switch from Android to iPhone after 12 years on Android. At the time, even flagship androids were lucky to get 2 years of OS updates and security fixes. Apparently Google and Samsung are going to support their devices longer, but I'll wait till they have a track record. But ultimately, an iPhone for me does come out cheaper over the lifetime of a device than cycling through cheap androids every 2 years.
So I am not sure about recent track record for Apple.
My 2021 Pixel 6 works well for my mother and is getting updates.
And Apple have generations of devices that have gotten a full 7 years of support. We still havn't seen a generation of Android do that since Google changed their policy. I sincerely hope it does happen. Competition is better.
But here is a site with some EOL info on Pixel. Pixel 6 support looks like it ends in 3 weeks with a grand total of about 5 years of support.
Compare this with the iPhone 11 that came out in 2019 that will be able to run iOS27 (comes out next week) and the Pixel 6 that came out in 2021.
And the original point was, "why iPhone over cheap android $200." Pixel 6 was a flagship phone with a launch price of $599. You could have gotten an iPhone 13 mini (release in 2021) and for an extra hundred bucks, been supported until at least 2028.
So spending $1800 extra on a nice experience is still better than $30k extra.
I'm not sure the unfolded version will be big enough to truly replace my iPad Pro, though.
many people have a phone as their only device though, so great screens and cameras and everything else are easily rationalized behind the managable cost of carrier plan's indirect loan.
Sidenote, I've not had a single one of my smartphones crack a screen since 2008 when I got my first smartphone, take that for what it's worth.
Product demos spoiling TV shows… What a time to be alive.
This is usually because my iPhone dings more, and is connected to an always on network connection + phone network, so it's often the point of first-contact with any specific task/response/conversation/work unless I am sitting at my desk at home already.
And while I am someone who does take a laptop and an iPad with them in a backpack at lot of the time, that's not all the time. I'm not walking around the grocery store with a MacBook anything propped up on my cart. I'm not hanging from a strap on a bus or train with a laptop in my hands. And using a laptop on the couch usually makes my wrists hurt.
It's like you're doing it on purpose or something.
When that happens I'll often want to look up recipes for that stuff right there in the store. The web has gone to trash. The mobile web is even worse. Adblockers can only help so much, its just that everyone dumbs everything down for small screens. So its very frustrating trying to process some search results and find a decent recipe for some-such and find the rest of the ingredients I need to buy. This is a low time committment task, I need to do this in a busy grocery store, and not block the part of the shelves I parked myself in front of for too long. I mean, I guess I could go home and use my desktop, but odds are I'll just forget. And no, I'm not gonna ask AI for a recipe.
On a screen that big, using Orion and locking it to "always show me desktop mode", I could more comfortably browse and look up these things than I can on my Pro Max sized phone now. The inner screen has a higher resolution than an iPad Mini.
Another example, and it was one they showed only very briefly in the video: I just want a bigger keyboard damnit. They showed an app taking up the top "half" of the inner screen, a keyboard taking up the lower half, with the phone folded at a 110ish degree angle. It's a Sidekick with a touch keyboard. So any time I have some serious typing to do (Slack message regarding something that requires a prompt response but isn't just a few words, not that hard to imagine other examples), that bigger screen is going to give me a keyboard that is much easier to type on than a Pro Max can, because the keys are going to be sized much larger and will not need to rely on the on-device typing guesstimator as much (and that thing is dumb as hell). God, being able to ssh into something and actually have some room for all of the extra keys that make working in a terminal easier, what a world!
Having a real computer for any of these tasks would of course be the ideal, but as portable as those have gotten, they still don't hold a candle to something that fits in my pocket and has a software stack that reliably lets me interact with it in a meaningful way without having to make room for a keyboard and a trackpad.
As for the bigger keyboard, I have tried that in iPad mini. It’s horrible. Because the distance between the keys is too far in that case and it actually slows down your typing. I can imagine the same in Duo when you use one half of it as the full keyboard
I literally said I use Orion with the "always use desktop mode". Do you have experience with that on an iPhone? If not, how would you know that it will default to the website optimized for mobile?
The iPad Mini doesn't have the same dimensions or aspect ratio, so its on screen keyboard experience cannot compare. The Mini in portrait orientation is almost an inch wider.
You really just seem like you're looking for issues to take. Don't buy the phone! Leave the people who will alone! We don't have to justify anything to you, and if you're going to ask us why we are, don't sit there and poo-poo every single fucking reason we have.
https://www.clicks.tech/ca/powerkeyboard
That's a very neat product.
I have to hand it to them, they added some really nice touches to the OS for the new form factor. Seems almost like the best of an iPhone and a iPad Mini.
Still not sure I want something that bulky, and maybe I'll wait a few months to see the reviews and how the hinge and screen fold hold up. But tempted for sure...
I don't know who this is for and can't figure out what problem this solves. It's cool, but it's not $2800 cool (yes, it's $800 more expensive in some markets). For that price is has to do more than fold in half, maybe fold into a swan of something.
This is especially true in the younger generation where many of them don’t own a computer. They do everything on their phones or iPads.
Do I want it? Ehhhh. I hate heavy objects. I stopped buying the Pro line because the weight just kept increasing. So I will probably not particularly enjoy that mass of batteries dragging on the purse strap. But I enjoy reading glasses less and I just don't want an unwieldy bigscreen that I can't hold easily like the iPhone Air.
Typing in portrait should be very nice, however.
I was really hoping they were going to slap an Apple Watch screen on the back of an iPhone Air and fold that in half.
I'll be waiting for an iPhone Duo Mini, I guess.
i hope apple give a duo mini a serious try. apple, the market segment might be smaller but like a restaurant that includes special dietary needs for one person, that brings the whole family along for dinner!
Suspiciously could not see reviews of it yet - usually bloggers like mkbhd get their hands on early, and they release the reviews moment the embargo is off, usually when live event is over. This time nothing.
Here's a live stream of the popular obnoxious streamer, he held it a few minutes ago (also talked with MKBHD).
Now, I can't even remember what version iPhone I have. I just remember that I bought it after my last one stopped working (after maybe 5 or 6 years of having it). I won't lie: part of the reason is that I'm just getting older and care less about these things.
But a bigger part is that new tech just isn't fun anymore...
I _hate_ using my current iPhone for surfing the web... because I can't run the full suite of ad-blocking software that I run on my computer (Firefox + uBlock, sponsor block; Little Snitch with tons of block lists). I hate that all that ad-blocking software is necessary... but that's a totally different rant.
I _hate_ that I'm being asked to spend $2000 on a device that will, by default, surveil me 24x7. I can spend HOURS trying to disable every feature designed to track me... and still not be certain that somewhere in the TOS that I've still given permission for them to vacuum up SOME piece of information about me.
And I _hate_ that Apple is now an ad company.
And yes, I acknowledge that with respect to privacy, Apple is STILL the less bad choice (compared to Android).
And yes, I acknowledge that there are other options. In fact, when this iPhone dies, I plan on getting a Pixel and putting GrapheneOS on it.
I guess what I'm saying is... I hope that there are more people like me out there... who are sick of paying thousands of dollars for devices that, instead of serving me, serve those who want to collect my information so they can sell me stuff.
edit: "because I can't" instead of "because can't"
Imagine buying a 3000 phone but typing on a screen like it’s 2015.
So much for Apple doing it better than competition despite being years late to the party.
Not much more than the 18 pro max - 8.78 ounces (249 grams). The Duo sure looks chonky, but that's not the end of the world.
Both parent and child are now mediating their experience through technology with the parent blaring recognizable intellectual property at the child to psychologically manipulate them into a better photo.
I have a Samsung Fold 4. The front screen is too narrow and the folding screen doesn't open all the way anymore.
Not what I expected from a 1400€ phone.
The curved right side makes me think so, but it sound like a pain for people using their phone left hand dominantly.
when the google & Samsung ones first came out they were plagued with problems.
but I think apple should've also had a foldable in the form of a razr ultra since they already have an iPhone air.
It still looks quite decent though.
I’m sure there’s a good reason but what is it?
From an experience perspective, I imagine it's just more satisfying to open it like a book. A screen on the outside would mean the inside is almost empty, just utilities like camera lenses.
not entirely sure why, but i’d guess there were durability concerns with the screen wrapping around the edge. might have also felt weird to hold. potentially the crease would be worse in unfolded mode as well.
And given the selfie camera position, I really doubt there is an accessibility setting to mirror the UI.
I'm sure someone will love it, but it won't be me.
The only ones I might consider, are the new base AirPods. I have never really warmed to the Pros (I have two pairs, but like the regular ones better).
I am looking forward to iOS27. I'm interested in seeing how the simulator presents the Duo.
50% more than the Z Fold 8, and still several hundred dollars more than the Z Fold 8 Ultra.
Who is this actually for? It's not for the average consumer that's for sure.
The hard corners when its folded is a huge design breaker. The whole thing is THICK when folded. Jobs only added the bezel because it competed with the cases wrapped on phones. I don't see how any case will work on this behemoth.
I've seen what happens to the fold crease after a year, its a bit noticeable. It will degrade the prestigious quality of the brand.
Lastly, this copies all other fold phones. I'm surprised is all.
10 years from now people will claim Apple invented folding smartphones or made them mainstream, just like they claim the same thing now about smartwatches.
When I'm at home, I can just use my iPad. When I'm on the road, I don't need to be watching content on a slightly larger screen.
I get that I'm not the target audience, but it's still confusing to me why people like foldable phones.
Consumerism is mad.
5s/SE1 is still peak iPhone for me. I pull that thing out of the drawer every now and then and just marvel and the size and weight and how it is barely noticeable in my pocket even compared to my (ginormous in comparison) SE2.
Addition for anyone scrolling: Link to a case on Apple's website for this.
Another addition: Another case without the kickstand
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mkr94zm/a/iphone-duo-case...
I would not, under any circumstance, use that official case.
My experience; I walked with an iPad Pro in my hand and I went to an interview, so I was a bit nervous. I let the iPad slip out of my hand. It had the official Apple cover, which leaves the edge exposed. So it falls, and drops such that it dents the side. This in turn cracks the display. I learned that Apple will not replace a display when the frame is damaged.
This will sell great.
I mean I do understand the appeal of the idea of folding smartphones, but I did not hear about any miracle material breakthroughs lately. So.. how can this exist? Why does it say that it is durable, when it has to be made out of materials that cannot be durable or else they wouldn't fold.
Did something change there and I'm just using stale data for that assessment, or is "durability" just not as valuable to the target audience?
My next phone is an e-ink Mudita Kompact with a hardware kill switch. I can run a service to bridge iMessage if I decide I care.
With every year since they arrived in 2005 or so and especially accelerating since 2010, smartphone capability has grown with their creepiness. The expectation that you own one has almost turned into a demand. It's a total turn off. You don't need these capabilities, life goes on without it just fine. The drawbacks for your mental health and privacy are material.
I also like to spectate games on Twitch/Youtube, and corners are often used for important stats.
You can look at other examples of controls that are way too close to the edge because they need to work around the bloated corners.
* https://www.wired.com/story/apple-watch-series-12-apple-watc...
it's a mistake though to demand an iphone to own the watch (can't configure it otherwise)
always held me back from ever buying an apple watch, don't want an iphone or ipad
- checking the time (obviously)
- sleep tracking
- high heart rate warnings
- sleep and heart rate trends over time
- reviewing notifications or declining calls without grabbing phone
None of these are "killer apps" but they're conveniences. I like having an accurate source of time that I don't have to pick something up for. I like being able to track my sleep schedule and duration over time. I like to know when my heart rate is high so I can take steps to quiet down. I don't use many of the other features, maybe some sparingly, but I've never really used the Watch for its apps anyway. And I think only the last feature on my list, maybe the last two, needs iPhone.
I've had to go without my Watch for the better part of half a year because it's refurbished and I've been trying to diagnose an Apple Developer Program enrollment issue, and Apple won't tell me which device was previously used so I have to rule out everything I didn't purchase brand new, etc., but I still constantly feel its absence. It's just a convenience but it was a welcome one.
Note that the Watch did previously require an iPhone for initial setup, but it does not anymore.
I was just answering to gp : the Apple Watch pretty much only make sense if you own an iPhone. Else, you’d better buy any other smartwatch brand which will allow you to do much more than an Apple Watch without an iPhone.
This has not been true for a while. Google "apple watch family setup". You just need to know someone with an iphone, once, to set it up. You can even set up cellular and use that for all watch internet needs, incl imessage, calls, facetim (audio), and weather & apps
It's good to see Apple is taking the fold transition seriously. I have a Z Fold, and Samsung elegantly handles the app transition from fold to unfold by force closing and restarting the app for you, even if you fold it just a little. :D
It seems they are segmenting the market on creator vs consumer between the pro and the duo, and betting the consumers want this form factor.
iPhone 18 Pro Max: 3.07 inches wide
iPhone Duo: 3.31 inches wide
my issue with phone sizes has never been their height, and has always been about resting in my palm.
I would like a non-foldable version of this phone. Call it the iPhone Wide or IPhone Mini Wide or whatever.
Everyone knows how badly these things break with moderate use. You’re basically buying with the expectation you’ll have to replace it.
Boring company, lost vision.
https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/1/as-images.apple.co...
I guess people spend more money than even this on other addictions
Restoring Touch ID is one of the things that might make me upgrade my existing iPhone before its time.
Naturally, I can already see people deeming it to be the most beautiful thing ever though.
Truly, I'll never understand Apple, nor their design language.
Edit: Is there that many demand for a foldable iPhone that justifies Apple making such engineering investment?
It'll be a nice device for some, but I think we're at the stage where device upgrades are no longer going to be a yearly or even biennial thing with all things considered.
But what are we even doing? $2000 for a device to watch videos on, to replace the $1200 device you watched videos on last year.
I guess I’m lamenting the fact that none of this amazing technology is actually doing much for us any more. It wasn’t that long ago that every year we would get new devices that actually changed how we did our day-to-day
The problems besides price (which are still insane) until now where:
- Materials not catching up, things like the older creases, dust ingress, etc.
- Software in Android being hit or miss, specially on with third parties. Apple has the muscle to make apps compatible with the form factor.
- The "standard" foldable aspect ratio sucking ass, the only major exceptions being the Surface Duo, the original Pixel Fold and the recent Galaxy Fold. Passport format is simply better.
>Imagine if Apple dedicated this huge engineering effort onto existing products.
For what? Slab phones are practically solved, the only things that might make a normal iPhone better besides incrementally better camera, battery and processors are not Apple approved. No expandable storage or cheap battery replacements for you. The only place for real advancemnt will be foldables for a while.
What other item do you own that you spend so many hours using
Also I think it would be quite bulky to carry the Duo in a pocket all day long.
Edit: Rate limited so can't reply to the comments. I live in Spain, can't switch to eSIM. I know that the US has 100% integration of eSIM across all providers but outside the US it's not that great. I use eSIM and SIM a lot, have lots of cards and subscriptions. For my main subscription I can't switch to eSIM (yet).
Even mainstream operators in my country have those these days, so you can sign up online without getting to a shop.
While Apple certainly looked at the competitors to see what problems they had, it's far from a given that Apple has managed to actually solve the durability issues, either, much less on their first attempt.
Apple also touts ultra durable screens in their presentation and people still shatter them regularly.
I doubt you did see any from the last few years.
It’s like Apple forgets there is a world outside the US where eSIM is not a thing.
Edit: Reply to nomel as I am rate limited
Cheaper than roaming cost. I have eSIMs for countries I frequently visit.
This is Europe. I can do a short walk and cross multiple countries borders. It's nice to have coverage everywhere. I just toggle my eSIMs for that. When I'm out on a boat trip and I pick up a Moroccan signal from across the Strait of Gibraltar I turn on my Moroccan eSIM so I'm not paying €2 per megabyte in roaming cost. When I get cheap gas in Gibraltar I switch on my Gibraltar eSIM and turn off roaming on my main line. When I cross into Portugal I switch to a Spanish provider since they give 15 gigabytes of roaming for free.
gonna be expensive but this is a first gen product I could see a ton of use cases for me with.
then all the photos either what's on the inside it's repeated whats on the outside,
or... and hold your breath... you can show on one side the calendar and on the other side the clock... now you can breath...
Meh, another 2 or 3$k gadget that does the same as the previous one?
Can Apple do anything original?
I’m not always in the best areas so this def comes up for me personally
Outside of that I think I’d give this a shot
This phone will suck for the concern trolls who are best described as deeply conservative but will try their best pointing out concerns while masquerading as whatever will convince people.
But once again as I said before [0][1], don't buy the first version of an Apple product.
That means, users (especially pro users / developers) lost months of productivity and had to wait for a year for the software to catch up with the hardware.
In that time-frame, you might as well have waited and bought an M2 or above. Nice try though.
from the Duo page:
- Up to 31 hours video playback when using the inner display
- Up to 44 hours video playback when using the outer display
Can they even do anything new?
Would rather ditch my phone size thing and be able to pair a cellular Watch to iPad Mini size thing that also has "50% more screen" than iPhone Max
Gen AI could take telemetry like GPS from Watch and recreate most adventures without need of all the pictures; I don't care if every little thing like a day hike is captured "for real"
Would still hire a photographer for actual meaningful moments like weddings and graduations
If you're only capable of reducing the entire comment to a single piece of it you would be wise to sit and meditate on comments first rather than vomit copy pasta opinions; the whole knee jerk copy pasta approach to social media discourse is soulless in its own way
