His arguments are all
- yes everyone does this not just lg; :)
- yes it can be used to track the user; but unless you literally go into lg ads hq, you can’t say they don’t
- they rooted to trigger this; well the os and system apps don’t need root, we need it to observe.
If the author is here please consider these as the reasons to why an LG customer would be mad.
- They did not knew LG has an ads subsidiary, whose CEOs and executives constantly go on investor meetings claiming “they own the glass”, “they own the living room”, “they own the network and devices” in the “lg household”
- if the above was said by lg tv division it would have still stung less. This was said by an ad company they didn’t knew existed nor did they agree to be associated with when they bought a home appliance.
Stop focusing on the technical details, look at the larger picture.
Also, I anticipated ads on a smart TV (unfortunately it's inevitable), but (wrongly) assumed that such invasive tracking and "we own the glass" would be a bar too low even for the budget manufacturers.
I'm never buying any LG product ever again.
There is substance in what they did. But they should have worked with an actual journalist to frame this properly and create pressure on the overarching topics.
If a TV company (LG or ANY of the others who have Ad-subsidiaries) needs to respond to this video, they can easily reframe the whole topic.
The most blatant example is that they demonstrate in the video that this TV, which has a built-in microphone for voice-control, that can be switched off with a mechanical switch:
1. Will record your voice when you ask it to transcribe your input to a textbox
2. Will process your voice to create this text it shows, as visible on the logs of the rooted OS
3. Will SHOW you that it's transcribing your input on the screen.
This is weakening the whole story.
--
In HN-terms: It's a constant-power, constantly-connected IoT-device with lots of sensors and huge compute-power, located in the center of your home.
There are big topics around this that deserve a huge spotlight, which apply to ALL TV manufacturers:
a. What data is actually being collected about the user, and what is done with this data?
b. How well is security handled on the TV to ensure no malicious usage?
Repeatedly jumping to the conclusion during the video that LG specifically is collecting ALL this local data to spy on you, without clear evidence, this just gives LG an easy way to respond and every other vendor enough room to distance themselves from the whole story.
This question implies that the answer could be something other than the maximum amount of data collection and monetization of that data they can get away with.
If that statement gives you pause please spend even a short amount of time reading about ad networks, data brokers, and corporate surveillance.
So even IF that would be a sufficient answer in a court of US, it would not be sufficient in a court of an EU country.
--> Hence my point on how the overall message was diluted too much.
See, you may look at all this as "nothing can be done anyway, so let's bunch it all together and rant about it as emotionally as possible". But I look at it as "this is all potential evidence that a law was either already broken or needs to have a loophole closed"
But you won't get any of this done by spraying all over how normal this is and how everyone does it anyway. You get this done with a precise shot at ONE of them, concise enough to pin them down while aiming at the next one.
Actually I think everything you're suggesting is unclear, LG explicitly say they do these things in their ToS. I skimmed their privacy policy, and I'm pretty sure it essentially says they collect all this information and use it for targeted advertising.
So there's the angle that US is lacking the proper regulation, and the angle that LG may have violated its ToS in the EU.
But neither of this is going to get pinned down if everything is bunched together without focus and clear evidence...
It's either a deliberately contrary or the author has other motives (which may sound ridiculous, but we know that bad actors have been paying people for bad takes for years - Malcolm Gladwell for instance being paid by oil and gas).
> If he can demonstrate someone remotely jailbreaking your TV, or flipping on those settings without you knowing or doing anything to your TV, that would be a far more damning issue, in my view.
There are ways to remotely jailbreak LG webOS TVs without user interaction, using the same (or similar) vulnerabilities you use to root your own TV voluntarily.
The main reason tools like https://rootmy.tv are prefixed with disclaimers and require user interaction is because we're being courteous, not because they're technically necessary. (source: I own the rootmy.tv domain)
The security posture of webOS is absolutely terrible, at least, it is in the way LG deploys it.
But vulnerabilities that can be remotely exploited without user interaction (CVSS grade 9-10)?
Holy shit. RF to zero-click exploit is a new one. I guess digital-everything wasn't always a good idea, this probably wouldn't ever have been a problem with analogue antennas and CRTs.
What are the people at LG even doing?
As an aside, I once interviewed one of the guys who wrote Teletext processors for analog TVs. He was a very interesting individual.
So no responsible disclosure, I see.
Not knowing any more details, it still sounds like you'd still need the user to tune to the actual frequency on the correct receiver (to cause some buffer overflow?). But then still there's no internet to do anything. So you'd need some very specific f/up exploit to then change local settings on the device I imagine.
Either way, would be a great opportunity to demonstrate this in a video, now that there's attention on the topic, to further amplify the pressure on LG's "terrible security posture" as you say.
If the manufacturers responsibly included a responsible way to install custom software/firmware, perhaps people would feel more inclined to help them. Their current attitude buys them very little goodwill.
If I, a corporation, declare that I only accept security reports carved on clay tablets in ancient greek and hand-delivered to my office in Timbuktu during a total solar eclipse - does that stop responsible security researchers from disclosing their findings publicly?
Of course not.
If the guy sends a clear message to the best public contact address he can find with 15 minutes of searching; and gives them 30 days to patch before publicly disclosing the bug; then he's performed responsible disclosure.
The vendor's corporate policies and release cycles and contact addresses and triage procedures are their problem.
Huh?
It is certainly not work that I would do to benefit a many-billion dollar company, for ~free. I may do it to benefit device owners such as myself, instead.
LG is solely responsible for the security of the products that they choose to sell.
I read this as "Wait until the model is EOL, hoping it won't be disclosed and fixed until then and also not fixed afterwards"
Is this not what you meant to say?
If manufacturers had a sanctioned way for the user to get root access to their own hardware, responsible disclosure would've made sense, but as it is, vulnerabilities are a useful tool for the owner of the device.
The video draws exactly that picture, a nefarious actor, remotely taking control over my TV and recording Audio from it
While some stuff are legit issues such as ADR, people now think they are wire-tapping. Because somebody used a rooted device to show-case recording silently through their device.
Can you blame corporations having this control-freak nature when shit like this happens?
It's stuff like this that likely pushes corporations now to invest more into device security, and locking down their stuff more.
Good for security and the corporation.
Maybe mid-term good for you consumer, because they might get more cautious with tracking stuff.
But long-term bad for you consumer, too, because they will make sure to lock down their devices better.
But that's not going to happen.
On a different note: Are you, in any way, affiliated with LG? You read to me as someone who is "unhappy" with the findings.
The attack-surface only gets lower when the TV is no longer in use and is disposed. That doesn't happen at EOL, customers don't suddenly throw away their TVs after 2 years.
I'm happy with the findings and hope that it gains momentum, but unhappy with the dilution of the matter with speculation, assumptions and sensationalism, because it allows the vendor to wiggle out of it and wait for attention to wind down.
I would prefer a clear spotlight to be shined on #1 the ad-networks business model of TV-manufacturers and #2 the security of their (very powerful) products.
If the process results in regulation which also requires the TV manufacturer to offer root-access to the consumer to verify and control its operations, I would be overjoyed.
But this is unfortunately not a subject of the current narrative at all, it will actually result in the opposite (more effort to lock-down the OS to prevent future sensationalism reporting)
I presume LG is like most vendors and stops issuing updates for older models after a while. It's pretty hard to keep software up to date when the vendor stops issuing updates.
The video is quite a mixed set of topics mangled together, which is a pity because IMO a cleaner separation would be more beneficial to get the point across.
They should have decided to set the focus on a specific area and then present every finding around that, i.e.:
1. The Ad data-collecting platform TV-manufacturers are operating, what data they collect and how they use it.
2. The vulnerabilities of the OS in a SmartTV, and the potential issues to exploit them for malicious purposes.
3. The general behavior of the device when connected to your network, with features like voice control, App control, Smart Home etc. enabled, and how it may expose information about yourself.
All the points and scenarios in the video might be valid, but they jump between those scopes and imply that its all the same, weakening the whole investigation.
If I'm LG and forced to respond to this, I can easily focus on dissecting the voice-input topic as a mere demonstration of the feature and how rooting the TV beforehand just showed the local process of handling it, steering the narrative away from the (IMO) much more important topics...
It's unfortunate, because they're one of the few voices speaking out about issues like this.
Wow. Please stop spreading things like this.
Not having root means not owning a device you paid for and have in your home.
Of course root allows you to tinker with your device and make it run what you want, but:
- Rooted devices make devices unpredictable. As shown in the video: How do you trust that your hotel/AirBnB is not using root on _their_ TV to use its microphone to spy on you? Or actually records your video output (instead of "just" ACRing it)?
- Re-selling: How do you know that TV you bought is untampered? How do you know it does not have software with malware installed that steals your credentials?
Many rooted devices display during boot a warning that they have been rooted. This is a problem that has been solved for more than a decade, but manufacturers pretend not to know the solution, because they are actively hostile to user freedom.
> How do you trust that your hotel/AirBnB is not using root on _their_ TV to use its microphone to spy on you? Or actually records your video output (instead of "just" ACRing it)?
Let's pretend there aren't plenty other ways they could spy on you. If it's bad if a hotel does it, why is it okay if LG does it? Do you honestly trust LG, and the thousands of "partners" that they sell your data to, and every government whose warrants they have to honor?
Your argument reduces to "if the warden lets us out of our jail cells, who will make sure we behave?"
Usually, this happens after a bootloader unlock because then verified boot is disabled. You can still have a rooted device and not break verified, resulting in no warning. See: jailbroken iPhones.
I wouldn't say it's a solved problem. Just have to find an exploit that works with verified / attested boot.
And device manufactures are getting more and more restrictive here, too. Why do you think that is?
> Let's pretend there aren't plenty other ways they could spy on you.
Sure, of course there are other ways to spy on people. But as we see here: If the device itself does it, then we like to blame LG. If they used an exploit to do that, then we blame LG's shitty security.
If a hotel owner installed a microphone inside one or their specific TVs, then we blame the hotel owner at least - not LG.
> If it's bad if a hotel does it, why is it okay if LG does it?
It doesn't seem like it is okay. We are discussing this right here.
> Do you honestly trust LG, and the thousands of "partners" that they sell your data to, and every government whose warrants they have to honor?
Do I trust LG more than a shady hotel / BnB owner or eBay seller? Yes. Do I trust them fully? No. It's not fully binary, I'd say.
> Your argument reduces to "if the warden lets us out of our jail cells, who will make sure we behave?"
I am just trying to say, it's really not that binary. You can extend that to other places whenever attestation is involved.
Do I like Linux and open platforms? Sure! Tampering is fun! Do I hate people using open platforms to scrape my websites and constantly cause load, steal my content and use that for AI training? Also, yes.
But how can I fight that? We run into CAPTCHAs, Cloudflare, Anubis and co. Now that issue is reduced, but the openness is also gone.
And you always see in tech spaces we rather want "dumb" devices rather than smart devices, because we cannot trust them.
Attestation buys you more trust, but at the cost of openness.
But in this case… I don’t know. The OEM is so actively hostile you might be better off just taking the risk with root if you must purchase it at all (and physically removing the radio/microphone hardware not being an option).
The inevitable outcome of this video is that TV vendors are pushed to harden the security and preserve the trust-chain, because part of the (valid) claim is that nefarious actors may break the security to use the device for spying on you.
With support from an actual journalist, it could be reframed to also emphasize the importance of controlled root-access to monitor and control the devices behavior.
But none of this was done unfortunately, and if I'm LG I don't want to see another video where someone reframes user-initiated voice-input for a web-search as spying initiative by showing some device-logs of the transcription process in parallel...
Do you actually want a channel with 2.66 million subscribers to show how to get remote access to TVs used by millions of people? :-P
The influencer economy is a bit soaked these days. You need to crank up the stakes to keep the viewer's attention.
That does not mean that LG does all that by default.
GamersNexus did an investigation which may overstate the privacy threat posed by LG smart TVs.
Otherwise, they start a voice command service (clearly displayed on the screen) and then say your TV is recording on your conversation. Like duh, of course my TV starts recording voice when I use voice commands.
And of course you have to trust LG with their TV and (not) having access. That same logic applies to every different company.
Maintaining enemy lists like the one of Drew linked there has been illegal in Germany since 2021 as part of the government's (very necessary!) efforts against hate crimes and right-wing extremism.
Or at least that's my understanding of the law there. Maybe it's exempt based on technicalities.
In any case, I can in many cases emotionally relate to why he is doing that, but.. oof.
I always say any serious computer needs blinkenlights and a smart TV has literally millions of them.
> If you root or jailbreak your devices, you've, by their very nature, broken their security. If he can demonstrate someone remotely jailbreaking your TV, or flipping on those settings without you knowing or doing anything to your TV, that would be a far more damning issue, in my view.
What is this authors point?
LG doesn’t need a root exploit to get this info because they made the fucking thing.
I read the article and then grepped for “Texas” to see if I missed it. The author never mentions the fact that this data collection was only found out initially because of a Texas government lawsuit that LG settled on by agreeing to give “informed consent” to users about data collection and then the warnings started popping up in unexpected places.
Is the author arguing that jailbreaking your device to find out what the manufacturer can do to gather data on you is dangerous because I don’t know, questioning your corporate overlords is bad or something?
This is the major issue with this video: It mixes stuff done by LG (ACR) with stuff done via rooting (audio recording). And now people think LG is 24/7 recording your conversations and uploading them somewhere. This has not been proven.
That nuance is important if you value good journalism.
Otherwise if we're just our here throwing random allegations because "corp bad", might as well say LG 's TVs are turning the frickin' frogs gay.
Sorry but such contrary takes in the face of this sort of evidence are either contrary for the sake of it or paid astroturfing.
However, just because your TV does ACR, does not immediately mean they listen 24/7 through your TV through any conversations even if the TV is off.
That is another, also quite different level of claim.
Spend some time building your reputation before arguing for divisive topics or be ignored.
Consider it a mechanical Turk but for social trust.
You have to start somewhere. Better makes sense to start looking at the arguments rather than the author.
It also helps you train your brain. Stop trusting someone solely because of who they are.
You can comment about anything here and build credibility.
Just don’t start on the most divisive topics.
* When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.
* Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
* Please don't post shallow dismissals
* Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.
And yet not once does it mention "don't start commenting on divisive topics"