There's a new "Google Jail" for independent wikis(weirdgloop.org)
115 pointsby pizzaiolo7 hours ago13 comments
  • remedan2 hours ago
    I enjoy the this extension that redirects search results from Fandom and other such terrible hosts to their higher quality indie alternatives.

    https://github.com/IndieWikiBuddy/indie-wiki-buddy

    • iamacyborgan hour ago
      This is great for users, but it’s terrible for the SEO of those independent wikis as you’re telling Google you want to click on Fandom and Fextra links.

      /edit

      It appears this is no longer the case and the extension does things a lot better than it used to!

      • maroider39 minutes ago
        That might be true for the default config in the extension, but you can also configure the extension to de-emphasize fandom wikis or outright hide them in search results. I don't quite remember the exact default config though.
  • skhameneh3 hours ago
    For a while, Fandom was having annoying ads and content that would get past my ad blocker. But a recent update has caused them to block users with ad blockers.

    I've been looking for explicit alternatives to Fandom for some content and it's annoyingly sparse.

    Just the other day I saw some meme about how if we saw as many ads taking over sites like we do now, that was a sure sign of having your machine getting infected with a virus.

    Generally I've found a good portion of websites that block users with ad blockers tend to be the worst offenders with aggressive ads...

    • niccean hour ago
      > Just the other day I saw some meme about how if we saw as many ads taking over sites like we do now, that was a sure sign of having your machine getting infected with a virus.

      That used to be the reality around decade ago for those who don’t know. Some applications changes default front page of the browser, hijacked other websites to inject popups and so on

    • kotaKat24 minutes ago
      > But a recent update has caused them to block users with ad blockers.

      I'm noticing that Ad-Shield is becoming a continual fight these days with pageloads that complete then they fly in with a "ha ha here's a fake error report turn off your adblocker aye?".

      Every time their live support chat is open (why would the anti-adblock firm even offer one), I send them Goatse.

  • jimnotgym2 hours ago
    I'm going to agree.

    I launched a website that is niche a few weeks ago, but totally unique. After a couple of weeks search console wakes up to tell me that they have indexed one page in 80. And that the top search term that is finding my site says exactly the name of one of my pages, yet Google is showing my homepage in search!

    Way to help your users

    • mrweaselan hour ago
      Yet you can be absolutely sure that Google is training their AI products on the same pages they do not want to show to their search users.
    • einpokluman hour ago
      > Way to help your users

      Dear Jim,

      At Google, our intent is to help our stockholders, not our users.

      Sincerely,

      Alphabet inc.

      • phyzix5761an hour ago
        That's every company
        • sphan hour ago
          It’s not every company having the effective monopoly on what can be found (i.e. what exists) on the web.
  • accountrequired30 minutes ago
    Whatever that github wiki mirror is doing, try that. You know the one, always at the top of search results...
  • rao-v4 hours ago
    As a bandaid solution we probably just need a good base domain for game wikis attached to a somewhat trustworthy foundation (that won’t sellout to Fandom in a week). Agree that wierdgloop.org is not … great
    • copper-float2 hours ago
      What's wrong with weird gloop? The RuneScape wikis are very high quality, same with the Minecraft wiki. Cook and others running are transparent and seem to have good intentions.
      • cookmeplox2 hours ago
        I think you can love what we're doing with the wikis, but also be candid that it's not an optimal reader-facing domain name. It was never really intended to be that - it's literally just named after a random item in RuneScape I discovered

        But it ended up being the only reasonable place we owned where we could put Fortnite, Overwatch and Valheim wikis that wouldn't get crushed by this new Google jail situation. Of course the alternative is what the parent comment suggests ("probably just need a good base domain for game wikis") - but you have to get THAT domain out of Google jail first. Chicken and egg.

      • TylerE28 minutes ago
        It's two english words both of which have negative conotations?
    • fakwandi_priv3 hours ago
      What’s wrong with wiki.gg?
  • fergie2 hours ago
    I am slightly on the fence about this. If the goal is simply to provide a good platform for people to create and share information with each other, then it shouldn't matter if the wiki is indexed in Google or not, in fact "invisibility" might even increase the quality of contributions.

    OTOH if the goal is to monetize other people's contributions then yes, I totally get why the "Google jail" would be bad for that, but I'm just not sure that its a cause worth fighting for- that road basically leads to a new Fandom.

    • tuetuopayan hour ago
      That's ignoring how video game wikis are used. People will google "<game> <place where I'm stuck>" and completely miss the wiki. Or "<game> <mechanic>". Etc. So reachability and proper indexing by search engines is a must.

      I've hit this on a few wikis where, for some (at the time inexplicable) reason, I'd get only the crappy Fandom wiki with above queries, and a good wiki when searching only for "<game> wiki" after seeing a link to it on reddit.

      When the reason is to move away from Fandom, get people what they are looking for, and perhaps attract contributors, this is an issue. Your average gamer won't route through the Wiki's main page, rather rely on the top Google search result for their issue.

    • cookmeplox2 hours ago
      I think this logic falls apart if you realize that wikis only "work" when you're able to get some of the readers to turn into long-term contributors, and losing 90% of your traffic by not showing up on Google is a great way to kill that funnel.

      There's a ton of historical evidence of wiki migrations (1) starting out with all of the editors and none of the readers, (2) not doing anything to get those readers to the new site, and (3) ultimately losing the whole war because the reader->editor flow was still happening on the Fandom wiki. "Invisibility" is absolutely not desirable here, even if your only goal is maximizing the amount of good contributions.

    • jdranczewskian hour ago
      I think it's fair to say that if the wiki's intent is to share information with people, you want people (and not just the inner circle of those in the know) to be able to find it. And the way most people find things is on Google.
    • sersian hour ago
      Personally I liked it 10 years ago when I searched for something and Google actually delivered useful results that were related to what I was searching. Nowadays, when I search for anything, I mostly get blogspam, ai slop and useless articles or in the very best scenario, good content on a page infested with ads (luckily there's ublock origin).

      So yeah, when my goal is to search for content that would be in a wiki, I'm ecstatic when I get an independent wiki over fandom. The Google Jail is the opposite of what I'd want.

      Nowadays, I use Kagi which is better than Google but it's still not to the level of Google in 2010.

  • miladyincontrol4 hours ago
    I dont know about this, I've been heading a wiki for a rather specific niche that was made about 1.5 years ago and it easily got most top results for it's focus in just a few months.

    It sounds like the issue isnt for "independent wikis" but for wikis competing with an existing domain already hosting one on the topic, in this case fandom.com's.

    • cookmeplox2 hours ago
      What's the wiki? I'm always interested to get more data points on this, because it has definitely applied to wikis for brand new topics that aren't competing with anything on Fandom (it's not the same as the normal "duplicate content penalty" that people talk about)
  • KingMob3 hours ago
    This is a shame because Fandom is frequently terrible, but also consumes all the oxygen.
    • rob74an hour ago
      One hand washes the other: they buy ads from Google (I think), so Google prefers them in the indexing process, so they get more traffic, so Google prefers them even more.
    • nephihaha3 hours ago
      It depends on which part. It is certainly heading down the same route as Wikipedia with all the problems that entails. You're usually better off on a smaller Fandom wiki as it won't have beeb taken over yet.

      The James Bond wiki is particularly bad, but Memory Alpha seems to be better run.

      • rob74an hour ago
        Well at least Wikipedia doesn't pester you with tons of ads that sometimes make it hard to even find the content (except for the occasional donation banner, but that's a minor annoyance compared to what Fandom does).
        • thaumasiotesan hour ago
          > except for the occasional donation banner, but that's a minor annoyance compared to what Fandom does

          Well, I guess that's true.

          It's worth noting, though, that wikipedia's donation demands cover more than the entire screen on a phone.

          • account42an hour ago
            It's also worth noting that both Wikipedia and Fandom were co-founded by Jimmy Wales.
            • thaumasiotes43 minutes ago
              Well... why? Is he involved with either of them now? Is there a shared persisting influence of some kind?
      • einpokluman hour ago
        > It is certainly heading down the same route as Wikipedia with all the problems that entails.

        Can you elaborate on what that means? i.e. what aspect of Wikipedia, and in what way Fandom is heading there?

  • josephjrobison3 hours ago
    The bar has been raised on all web content for Google to index, esp new domains like you say but even some subdomains.

    That answer is quality content (higher than AI or human medians), links and pr and social activity and mentions, and then user experience.

    • microtherion2 hours ago
      And yet, I have to dig my way through pages upon pages of AI trash sites for many Google queries. Somehow THOSE don’t seem to have a problem getting indexed (Maybe they run a sufficient number of ads?).
    • watwut2 hours ago
      Google search results dont care about content quality. And did not for years already. It killed good quality blogs and sites long before the AI slop came in.
  • nephihaha3 hours ago
    Google has been removing blogs from its searches for years now. You have to search for them specifically. All part of the de-democratisation of the web.
  • LoganDark2 hours ago
    Anyone remember when "Fandom" was called Wikia? It really started going down the gutter when it started TikTokifying itself by trying to act as an entertainment hub. It was supposed to be a neutral resource for people to build community-driven knowledge bases but it turned into some real gamified garbage. I've never really been comfortable with the concept of addressing a "fandom" as one whole anyway, even in general, so the new act is just complete crap to me.
    • ButlerianJihad2 hours ago
      Fandom probably hosts more copyrighted images and media than the Internet Archive does.

      Entertainment studios can often turn a blind eye to use of their properties when it's by fans, for fans, and promotes those franchises. They are not sending C&D to people making avatars, or cosplaying, or memeing their screengrabs into notoriety.

      It is weird to think that the WMF and Wikia/Fandom had a common founder and origin.

  • robin07167 hours ago
    [dead]
  • leonidasrup3 hours ago
    Courts should review past decisions

    Field v. Google, Inc. (2006)

    https://www.practicalecommerce.com/Search-Engines-Indexing-a...

    Authors Guild v. Google, Inc. (2015)

    https://www.flaglerlawgroup.com/a-new-era-for-fair-use-court...