28 pointsby magoghman hour ago12 comments
  • leonixyzan hour ago
    The authors think reusing a cotton bag for 173 times is difficult - that's all we need to say about this article. When recommendation for landfilling comes from this kind of sources, I think we can safely assume we are doing absolutely great with our demands to reuse, repair and recycle!
    • RattlesnakeJake32 minutes ago
      If I bought one cotton bag and used it for my whole life, the argument would seem silly.

      In reality, a household can easily gain 5-10 new tote bags a year as businesses hand them out as swag or with legitimate collections of items or paperwork. There's no way to use them all enough to justify their manufacturing.

      The point the article is making is that the "use fewer plastic bags" thing was well-intended, but it incentivized an alternative with too many tradeoffs. Businesses could order a ton of bags, and feel like they were being "environmentally friendly" by handing them out. But in reality, they just flooded the marketplace with so many bags that didn't need to be made in the first place.

      • lokar15 minutes ago
        If you have enough bags, you don’t need to keep accepting new ones. We have used the same collection of bags for over 15 years.
      • alistairSH29 minutes ago
        [dead]
    • alistairSH33 minutes ago
      Not just that, but they go as far as claiming that single-use Solo cups are more environmentally than using a mug. Literally anything made cheap and quick and with little energy is better by their calculus. Doesn't pass the sniff test, IMO.
      • abirch27 minutes ago
        Not to mention the microplastics. Plus the Solo cups are transported over a great distance as well, between the fuel and packaging it could easily triple their carbon costs.
    • beerandt26 minutes ago
      Very few people are using a bag to the expected life cycle limit, and even fewer are doing it without WASHING, which is key in doing full LCA (life cycle analysis).

      Washing and cleaning are surprisingly inefficient and costly (in terms of $, energy, resources, and emissions) compared to manufacturing, and many assumptions about recycling and reuse go out the window once the realistic numbers descrbing how people actually behave replace idealistic assumptions that go into a manufacturers internal emissions calculations.

      As someone who loves to use cotton everything- it pretty much never makes sense to use from an LCA perspective (and that's OK).

    • swinnipeg37 minutes ago
      I would wager the median number of uses per cotton bag is way below 173 store visits.
      • prmoustache21 minutes ago
        Why would it be that low? I am using 3 if them that are around a decade old.
      • hansvm29 minutes ago
        I bet you're right. Why though? I've gotten thousands of uses out of mine. Even if you shop infrequently that just means they'll wear out more slowly, so surely that's viable for everyone else, maybe with a 7yr break-even point for an every-2-week shopper?
        • rendang19 minutes ago
          Because I remember to take mine maybe 25% of the time
      • maerF0x035 minutes ago
        Based on my own usage patterns i'd get really roughly that number before they fell apart. The trader joes "burlap" style bag I like would get me about 1 trip a week for about 3 years. It is, notably, plastic lined though.
        • prmoustache17 minutes ago
          "fell appart", really?

          Or do they sometimes have a part of the stitching failing that takes 2 minutes to repair with a needle and a cotton thread?

    • prmoustache13 minutes ago
      Also the best way to manage waste is to not generate it in the first place.

      I visited some places that package nearly all their vegetables and fruits in 1 use plastic containers, this is bonkers.

      • bryanlarsen5 minutes ago
        Plastic, when used properly, significantly reduces food waste. It's a trade-off curve. Like most trade-offs, optimal is likely somewhere in the middle rather than on either extreme.
      • mingus889 minutes ago
        Right, if we have a limited resource of something valuable, should we just use it up once and throw out the product entirely?

        If plastic is so efficient, why wouldn’t we make reusable bags out of it instead of cotton? Why is the argument to waste it?

        We aren’t getting more oil.

        • bryanlarsena minute ago
          Plastic can be made from synthetic oil; it's often higher quality as a result. Oil is not a limiting factor.

          Plastic is a good mechanism for carbon sequestration. Pull some carbon from the air and use it to make something both useful and permanent.

    • jayknight15 minutes ago
      I bought 4 quite large heavy duty canvas bags in like 2005 and have been grocery shopping with them since then. I almost never buy more than will fit in those (actually, most trips I just take two of them).
    • throwitaway22223 minutes ago
      The author of this comment thinks everyone is like him or her.
    • mbgerring42 minutes ago
      I’ve encountered this same inability to think or count when people claim that the lifecycle emissions of solar panels or batteries wipe out any potential emissions savings from use. It’s easy to confuse people with big numbers!
  • nancyminusone10 minutes ago
    That's fine if said trash actually ends up in the landfill. When it ends up ont the grass next to the parking lot is when you start to get the idea that we're all living in each others filth.

    Also I disagree that energy should be the item to minimize. It makes sense if you are burning stuff for it, but we've known how to get free energy from the sky for quite a while.

  • yndoendo21 minutes ago
    Proper recycling improves national security and the well-being of their citizens.

    Good example is South Korea. They were devastated after continual war in the 1950s. So they implemented mandatory recycling. Food waste goings into bin A, metals into bin B, plastics into bin C, ... This allows for reducing the cost of recycling by presorting items. It helped them rebuild and become stronger. To this day they still properly separate their garbage to ease recycling.

    Recycling food waste and scraps means creating a nutrient rich fertilize resource. Tossing them into a land fill removes nutrients from the food chain. USA food has less nutrients than years past because of the push for synthetic nitrogen fertilizers.

  • beej7114 minutes ago
    I don't want another landfill. Ours is almost full and they're talking about converting a beautiful valley into the next one. And it's way father out of town. Shipping trash ain't free.

    There's a balance between safety, cost, and energy use that should be struck. "Just landfill" doesn't seem to be chasing that balance.

  • heyjamesknight29 minutes ago
    A question I've often wondered: is the "cost" of bad recycling higher or lower than the cost of not recycling?

    We've moved a few times over the years and it's often surprising what is and isn't recyclable in different jurisdictions. This means I often find myself putting something into the recycle that isn't recyclable in my current jurisdiction.

    Is this worse than just not recycling, let's say on a per unit basis? I.e. is one unit of recyclable material in the landfill more or less bad than one unit of trash in the recycling pipeline?

    Not sure there's an answer, but it's a question I've pondered often.

  • hosteur33 minutes ago
    OT: I really like the aesthetics of this site.
  • lostmsu18 minutes ago
    The whole cotton bag thing could only work for people who already carry bags around all the time.
  • schiffern38 minutes ago
    This was pointed out to me a while ago, but it seems to hold true:

    Whether someone appreciates a modern engineered landfill is a useful Shibboleth for distinguishing real evidence-based environmentalism from narcissistic signaling "environmentalism."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRx_dZawN44

  • wishgreen22 minutes ago
    Engineering is about _tradeoffs_. By reducing a complex objective down to a single metric -- in this case, the author chooses energy expenditure -- you can arrive at a great many number of asinine conclusions, such as, single use plastic bags and solo cups are better for the environment...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

  • josefritzishere26 minutes ago
    I have a cotton bag in my car. I've been using it for 20 years. It was used 173 times probably in the first 3 years. I have a ceramic coffee mug on my desk. It's moved with me through multiple jobs over the last 25 years. It's been used tens of thousands of times. Some goods are naturally disposable like a Kleenex, but much more could be reusable. The math is right there.
  • Asooka35 minutes ago
    [flagged]