135 pointsby Anon842 hours ago37 comments
  • jfb2 hours ago
    The real problem, to me, isn't that Cook sold out Jobs; he sold out his customers, by the increasing rents extracted by the App Store and the services division in general. I'm a long time Apple user, and the idea that ads have any place in my computers is appalling, but now they're in Maps, and they're in the OS as non-dismissible upsells, and I mean, Windows is right over there, all of this is unnecessary strategy taxation on what Apple does well (hardware and software).
    • throwawayffffas2 hours ago
      That was always the strategy, the whole apple ecosystem was always obtuse and closed off from compatibility with the rest of the computing world just to maximize rents. If they could, they would ship an apple version of the internet only available to apple devices.
      • alsetmusican hour ago
        > That was always the strategy

        Wrong. Steve would have charged you for everything he thought they deserved, but he'd never allow ads in Apple Maps.

        ["We like our own stickers better."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COAOknlfMgI)

      • mnsan hour ago
        That's not really true. He was a control freak and thought he and Apple knew better what people need. They always wanted to control the whole experience and most of the things were initially closed off because he never wanted anyone to modify the Apple experience and his products. That's why initially he didn't even want to let people install other apps on the iPhone and was against the AppStore.
      • pjmlp2 hours ago
        The openness of PC clones was a mistake IBM failed to regain control from, everyone was like Apple.
        • throwawayffffas16 minutes ago
          It wasn't a mistake there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

          The clones happened with cleanroom engineering which is legal.

          • pjmlp15 minutes ago
            That is how Compaq managed to avoid the copyright lawsuit, afterwards there were enough options, besides the failed PS/2 attempt, OS/2, or even forcing a new hardware stack.
        • eloisantan hour ago
          A mistake for IBM maybe, but a blessing for computing.
          • pjmlpan hour ago
            If you consider MS-DOS and Windows 3.x a blessing.
            • detourdog36 minutes ago
              Remember the world had DOS before MS bought it and sold it to IBM.
              • pjmlp21 minutes ago
                The world hardly cared about QDOS.

                In my bubble, the world was about ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64 and Amiga, Atari ST, before PC clones became relevant.

                All equally vertically integrated as Apple.

                • detourdog10 minutes ago
                  I still prefer vertically integrated OS's. Documentation and troubleshooting is more difficult when spread across vendors.
                • detourdog19 minutes ago
                  The world hardly cared about DOS. QDOS,cp/m or otherwise.
                  • pjmlp17 minutes ago
                    Indeed, so what blessing?
        • fitsumbelayan hour ago
          > The openness of PC clones ...

          I'm kind of struck my this because it reminds me of the some contrast between the two platforms during the mid-90s.

          While no PC manufacturer controlled their HW stack like Apple did, making Macs more expensive than PCs by almost double, Windows was the only viable OS option as Linux distros had trouble supporting print functionality. Windows was never not hot garbage.

          What Mac users got for their money in 1996 was out-of-the-box media production capacity in the form of CD quality (if not DAT on some models) audio and video (though not full-size broadcast quality yet), TTS and -- I _believe_ -- voice rec and of course a superior UX that turned mere users into babbling near-cultish apostles. PCs had superiority in 3D modeling and animation as well as gaming likely helped along by industry adoption (even Steve Jobs' Pixar went PC) but I don't remember any independent PC-based 3D animation folks like I recall independent Mac based visual designers, sound designers/musicians and video producers.

          Mac users got their money's worth especially if they were creatives IMHO

          • pjmlp18 minutes ago
            I remember the predating two decades when the options were broader than two, and the large majority vertically integrated.
        • Pet_Antan hour ago
          This is true and I don’t know why it’s downvoted. IBM was notoriously obsessed with lock-in, they just bungled it with the IBM PC because they needed to move fast because they didn’t want it to slip away from them. So, they used off the shelf components that anyone else could buy.

          The lenient contract with Microsoft and the unexpected to them ruling on reverse engineering the BIOS sealed their fate.

          But no company wants to compete in a commodity, they all want to be monopolies. All the Unix vendors tried to be common enough to be a selling point but idiosyncratic enough to lock in their clients.

          Apple isn’t nefarious… they are the default.

          Now, if we want to support their ambitions with our wallets is another question

          • throwawayffffas44 minutes ago
            > Apple isn’t nefarious… they are the default

            That's not true, well the second part is not true. it's not the default, it's a choice they made, there is no default.

            They could have opted for maximum interoperability and openess.

            Sk Hynix does not work with only sk hynix motherboards(I don't know if they even make motherboards), Intel cpus do not only work with Intel NICs. AMD GPUs do not only work with AMD CPUs. Nvidia GPUs do not require an imaginary Nvidia OS.

            Hell windows is happy to work with whatever hardware you throw at it, but Macs nowadays have soldered ram and storage. And you can't install MacOS on any hardware you might like.

            Getting files in or out of an iPhone without a Mac was a nightmare just a few years ago and I am confident it still is.

            • detourdog33 minutes ago
              The default the GP is probably referencing is the early days all hardware vendors produced their own OS. Apple maintained the status quo as MS changed the status quo. The innovation MS really developed was the software license for OS's.
          • throwawayffffas14 minutes ago
            The first reversed engineered version of BIOS was released in 1982 by Columbia Data Products.

            https://www.ntari.org/post/how-clean-room-reverse-engineerin...

          • unknownfuture15 minutes ago
            It's downvoted because it reads as though IBM made a mistake the commenter thinks they should've never made, as opposed to a mistake from IBMs perspective given their business strategy at the time.

            That is, it appears to tacitly agree with, and chide IBM for failing to defended, closed, walled-garden ecosystems.

            That's certainly not what it seems they meant. It's just how one might initially read it and downvote.

            • throwawayffffas10 minutes ago
              But it's not their mistake at all there is nothing they could do, companies went out there and reversed engineered BIOS. They couldn't possibly stop them.
            • pjmlp13 minutes ago
              It was certainly a mistake to base the original IBM PC hardware design in easily obtained electronics, and hope the BIOS copyright would be enough to hold out clones, unlike previous IBM hardware.
          • ahartmetzan hour ago
            Nefarious and default aren't incompatible properties. If companies (especially large, public ones) were benevolent by default, a lot of laws and institutions would not be needed anymore.
          • xatttan hour ago
            How should have IBM acted if they wanted to keep their lock-in?
            • pjmlpan hour ago
              They did try to keep the lock in, with the release of PS/2 and MCA architecture, which many think it relates only to keyboard and mice ports.

              However it was too late to regain control and PS/2 alongside MCA was largely ignored.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PS/2

      • fassssst2 hours ago
        > If they could, they would ship an apple version of the internet only available to apple devices.

        Basically what Apple News is, they don’t have a web or Android client.

        • drfloyd51an hour ago
          News is hardly the Internet. And everything in News is on the Internet.

          There are news+ articles available to Apple subscribers. This is hardly “the internet”. This is analogous to premium memberships on websites.

          Nor is it required that an app developer make an app for every platform. Microsoft doesn’t make office for Linux.

        • lucky_cloud23 minutes ago
          Is there anything on Apple News that doesn't also exist as a web page?
      • elorant41 minutes ago
        If they could, they would ship an apple version of the internet only available to apple devices.

        Well Microsoft tried to do the exact same thing with that dreadful Microsoft Network in the early days of the web. So it's not inherit to Apple only, all large corporations would like their users locked up in their ecosystems.

      • jfban hour ago
        I don't know that it was always the strategy; there's a difference between openness and rent seeking.
      • KellyCriterionan hour ago
        Mmmh ... whats the difference to what MS is doing then? :-D
      • m0llusk2 hours ago
        That isn't true. The original Apple Store proposal by Bertrand Serlet is available and it is pretty clearly driven by the need to polish the user experience of installing and managing applications. Being able to charge a significant premium was just a part of the picture and originally considered to be required to pay for the associated infrastructure of reviews and such.
        • throwawayffffasan hour ago
          I am not even talking about the apple store, i am talking about printers, cables and file systems in the 90s. Since the beginning of the company everything they made did not work with stuff from other manufacturers on purpose.
          • philistinean hour ago
            Apple chose SCSI as its connector of choice in the 90s. It was a standard, it was faster and better than Serial, and PC manufacturers never bothered to offer it.

            Apple chose an internal connector that worked with their CPUs. They couldn't even offer the connection styles on PCs; they worked differently.

            Apple built its own mouse and keyboard cabling because they wanted to allow their users to connect their mouse to their keyboard, and to start the computer from the keyboard. No common cable offered them that.

            Apple was literally first to the common rigid diskette. That they came up with file systems of their own is a measure of their early investments, and their need to maintain compatibility. They couldn't move to FAT, they had already made their own stack.

            From my side of the fence, PC makers were laggards trying to save pennies who couldn't be bothered to invest in better technologies. Apple's success in cornering the majority of profits in the computer sector is a measure of their continued failures.

          • ceejayoz19 minutes ago
            > Since the beginning of the company everything they made did not work with stuff from other manufacturers on purpose.

            But that's often the right route. Sometimes what the others are doing is not enough to deliver a good result. Micro-USB sucked, so they made Lightning. Flash ran slow, so they helped kill it.

          • naravaraan hour ago
            I don’t think there’s inherent virtue in zagging just because everyone else zags if zigging is better.

            There’s trade-offs, but in most cases the Apple call has tended to err on the side of ease of use and ease of access to the mass market at the expense of flexibility and versatility for tinkerers. It’s good for a market to have companies willing to make different sets of trade-offs to please different segments of the market rather than all herding around the preferences of a cluster of nerds.

            The real problem is that the rest of the industry has “Apple envy” and just copies everything they think they can get away with instead of making their own sets of trade-offs.

    • isodevan hour ago
      > he sold out his customers

      I think it's important to remind ourselves that the responsibility doesn't lie with the one individual. Even the visit to the WH dinner - it is the company, Apple, via various structures committed to doing those things with various VPs and staff onboard brainstorming and supporting along the way.

      So "John" may bring some nuances but let's not be under the illusion that a huge corporation like Apple would suddenly bounce off to a different track.

      • disgruntledphd2an hour ago
        > I think it's important to remind ourselves that the responsibility doesn't lie with the one individual.

        No, the responsibility lies with the culture of growth at all costs. Margins and revenues must continue to increase, whatever else happens.

        If you want to blame someone, blame whoever decided it was a great idea to pay executives in stock/stock options. That's what incentivises this kind of behaviour.

        As an aside, it's amusing to me that Apple ran so hard on privacy with (apparently) the explicit intention of creating a market for their ad products.

        • isodevan hour ago
          > blame whoever decided it was a great idea to pay executives in stock/stock options

          Yes, I do agree that extreme forms of capitalism are responsible for ruining practically every aspect of modern tech.

          > Apple ran so hard on privacy with (apparently) the explicit intention of creating a market for their ad products

          Indeed. It wasn't obvious at the time, but with hindsight we can see that the push for privacy was only in areas where Apple wanted to counter Meta/competitors or gain advantage in specific verticals. It was never "user focused".

      • jfban hour ago
        Absolutely true. Cook is an officer of the company, and has a responsibility to the company itself; and the current incentive structure that Apple operates in dictates a drive towards rents. Change needs to be exogenous, but there is a certain amount of pushback that even a fiduciary can use, and the evidence here is, to me, damning.
    • jjicean hour ago
      Which ads are in the OS? Are these the Apple TV and similar, or are there even more?
      • benhurmarcel27 minutes ago
        There are ads in the Apps Store, and in Maps. Also ads for iCloud subscriptions in the settings if you don't use it.
      • ceejayozan hour ago
        Per the article:

        > For example, just recently, Apple deployed its formidable multi-billion-user global cloud infrastructure in service of… promoting the Brad Pitt Formula 1 movie. People were, understandably, a bit disconcerted to see their wallet payment app sending them promotional messages about a film, and Apple undoubtedly screwed up in polluting a functional messaging channel about transactions with a commercial message, but hey — this is a clear sign Apple knows it’s got the power to drop a note directly into millions of people’s pockets.

      • KellyCriterionan hour ago
        Honestly, I even consider the constant reminder to setup Apple Pay as some kind of ad
    • tyraboundan hour ago
      If the linux community could focus and organize its efforts it could actually offer an alternative that would reapply pressure that the tech industry has been working hard to lift from itself through creeping encirclement and enclosure, i.e., the Enclosure Acts. People sometimes lament things like how the Europeans stole the land of the indigenous tribes in what would become America or throughout he colonialism in Europe, but what is often overlooked is that this process of taking public lands and giving them to private people was done to the indigenous Europeans long before America was even discovered and colonialism was even engaged in, starting in the 12th century in the UK for example.

      What the tech companies have been doing to the internet since about the early aughts has been no different, they've been using the same kind of enclosure strategy to limit and parcel out and divide up the internet among the ruling psychopaths.

      • dolmenan hour ago
        > If the Linux community could [...]

        This starts with a wrong assumption. Like if there was a "Linux community" company driven by a CEO.

    • returnInfinity2 hours ago
      Steve jobs was even more cut throat, he would have doubled the prices.
      • expedition32an hour ago
        Steve Jobs was a business man and CEO of a company.

        Judge the man on what he was. And he was those things brilliantly.

        • ceejayoz13 minutes ago
          Jobs was also a human and a father, and apparently quite shitty at both. Is that not part of who he was?
    • walrus012 hours ago
      What Apple is doing is really just a symptom of a malaise with the economy in general, that in the last 25 years the business model of everything that possibly can be pushed that way has changed to: Rent Seeking.

      In the economics textbook sense of the word. You will own nothing and rent forever. You will not have control over your own data or devices. Having that control is a threat to someone's revenue model for getting you to pay for monthly subscriptions to things and services.

      Microsoft's new user out of box experience for Windows 11 is also a fine example of this.

      Imagine where we would be at right now if the Windows Phone had been a wild success and the Microsoft App Store on the Windows Phone was also a wild success. You think the fees and commissions charged and terms/conditions for app publishers would be much different?

      • mawan hour ago
        That is not the economics textbook sense of the phrase.

        The first sentence from the wikipedia article seems good to me: "R-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating public policy or economic conditions without creating new wealth."

        • walrus01an hour ago
          Running an app store that takes some huge % off the top just for distributing a piece of software would meet this definition:

          "Rent-seeking middlemen: These actors insert themselves into a transaction by force, law, or monopoly control. They do not make the trade easier or better. They just demand a toll or fee because they control access."

          Monopoly app store enforced on devices by firmware/operating system lockout inserting yourself as the only middleman to distribute things meets the definition.

          google "economics rent seeking app store"

          • mc32an hour ago
            I think the iconic rent seeking is the distributors of goods and services in Japan. They don’t add value but you cannot buy directly from the mfg. Same could be said of resellers in the US when they have exclusive distribution rights to another company’s products and services.
    • AlexandrB33 minutes ago
      > by the increasing rents extracted by the App Store and the services division in general

      I wouldn't care about the rents if they weren't in the form of ads being shoved in everywhere. The "2 ads in the first 3 results" of the App Store is a horror show.

  • kvuj2 hours ago
    > I’m not an uncritical Steve Jobs fan. I know, from having worked closely with people who worked directly for Jobs for many years, that he could be a mercurial, and brutish, boss.

    That's a pretty big euphemism for Steve Jobs being a piece of shit. What I've realized throughout the years of working is that being able to work as a team is almost more important than your technical capacity. You can always become better in your field, but becoming a better human is a lot harder.

    • walrus012 hours ago
      I've repeatedly said here on HN that Steve Jobs was king of the assholes and a huge piece of shit, and been soundly flamed for it. A vast amount of first hand anecdotes of him being an asshole exist and are likely not fabrications by the people reporting them. And yet people think he's some sort of god like figure because apple made cool products.
      • andsoitis2 hours ago
        You can be a jerk and be brilliant at the products you create. One can admire the latter while criticize the former.

        Jobs revolutionized music and computing.

        • raverbashing2 hours ago
          Agree

          If anything he was one of the few hard a-holes that managed to channel that to productive purposes

          Being a jerk is easy. Being a jerk that still keeps people motivated it really hard.

          Kubrick was known for that as well.

        • walrus012 hours ago
          As a counter point some very boring individuals who are not jerks nor capable of forming a cult of personality have invented singularly iconic and widespread products which achieved great market share. One example would be Eugene Stoner and his design for the AR-15/M16.
          • andsoitis2 hours ago
            You’re comparing Eugene Stone to Steve Jobs?
            • walrus012 hours ago
              No, I'm saying Eugene Stoner was a singularly boring individual apart from inventing one thing. Sort of an anti steve jobs.
              • andsoitis2 hours ago
                Yeah but I would not say the products Stone invented are the same kind of, and I quote, “iconic”, as the products that Jobs invented. They’re just in totally different universes.
                • spankibalt38 minutes ago
                  The AR-15 pattern rifle is certainly iconic; on its own probably more so (i. e. more recognizable) than almost all of Jobs's products. When allowing for the typical collective amnesia, the only two products that match, or manage to exceed, its iconographic status are the iPhone and the iPad; when bringing in historical expertise you can probably add the Apple II.
                  • andsoitis20 minutes ago
                    Interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that if you asked people in the US or around the world to pick the most iconic products that they would rank the AR-15 in particular above the top Apple products.

                    I guess it is possible, but I would be very surprised.

                    I might even think that the AK-47 or the Glock have more name recognition. But what do I know?

                    • spankibalt2 minutes ago
                      > I might even think that the AK-47 or the Glock have more name recognition.

                      A "yes" on the AK, and a "no" on the Glock.

                      The AR-15, incl. its variants, isn't called "America's Rifle" for nothing; it's the West's (tm) (cultural) analogon to the AK. Make the test and ask some "normies" to pick out an AR-15. Then do the same for the Apple products.

          • hnfong2 hours ago
            As much as Steve Jobs was an asshole, at least he didn't invent tools whose only purpose is to kill people...

            Like, maybe find a better example?

            • mc32an hour ago
              Mikhail Kalashnikov.
              • andsoitisan hour ago
                Fun fact: Stone and Kalashnikov were friends.
      • VCFundedGenYeran hour ago
        I don't get your point.

        He was, objectively, a huge POS. Ask anyone who worked with him. He ruined people for capital gain. He failed to acknowledge his first child. He time and again made people miserable.

      • t43562an hour ago
        It's the implication that success excuses it that sucks. The fans don't care how their status symbols came about - only that they have them. The illusion is presented that without him we'd all be using MS-DOS to this day.
      • fortran77an hour ago
        He was a huge piece of shit. Yet, when I lived in Silicon Valley, I saw parents scrambing to get a house in the right district so their kid could go to Homestead High and have a shot of "being like Steve Jobs." They want their kids to be deadbeat dads who die in their 50s?
      • AtlasBarfed2 hours ago
        The man, the myth, the legend.

        That phrase gets bandied about quite casually in my experience. Usually is an ironic light joke about somebody in your peer group on talking to other people or near your peer group.

        As such, it's been sort of semantically watered down quite a lot in our popular cult.

        But it's perfect for people like Steve Jobs.

      • qsera2 hours ago
        No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone. I mean, being an asshole is inconsequential if you are brilliant.

        Only total losers whine about such silly things in successful people...

        • walrus012 hours ago
          • qsera2 hours ago
            Never heard about this dude..
        • ksaunan hour ago
          > No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone.

          That might depend on how strict "alone" is. (Perhaps by definition, only having a singular exceptional trait makes it challenging to be renown.) For example, might Fred Rogers count? Or Dolly Parton who, though remembered for many things, has kindness as a core part of her legacy.

          I think many people are remembered for being kind, but only by those who knew them very well, such as family and friends.

        • ProllyInfamousan hour ago
          >No one has been remembered for being extra nice alone.

          RIP Dolly

          ----

          [meme:bobbyHILL@classroom_window.jpeg] "Thanks to Dolly, these kids can read, and they are very upset..."

          ----

          Long live the Queen['s Imagination Libraries]!

        • zanellato19an hour ago
          Steve Jobs will be forever be remembered as an asshole.
        • fyredgean hour ago
          Well, depending on how you define success, I'd say Trump is successful getting elected as POTUS twice. He sure is a brilliant man to be revered, and the people complaining about his allegations are surely losers... (sarcasm to be certain)
    • devldan hour ago
      > You can always become better in your field, but becoming a better human is a lot harder.

      This sounds so self-gratifying. You could have also written: "I am better than Steve Jobs and I look down on him".

      • 6 minutes ago
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    • ProllyInfamous2 hours ago
      I grew up in a one-highschool Texas town, a notorious football powerhouse. The brainwashing we received as players was incredible, and we were definitely respected members of our community (e.g. newspaper would interview us; girls; getting away with murder).

      The football t-shirts we were given for dailywear said something to the effect of "loved by few, feared by some, respected by ALL" – and I just can't help but feel this message was terrible advice for [our] young impressionable minds.

      We probably deserved it, when playing more-modest football programs, when the opposing team changed their objective from scoring points to breaking our ankles (literally).

      ----

      All to say, I have several brothers, two of whom are experts in their respective fields (engineering and law), with decades (each) of practice and expertise:

      they come off immediately as know-it-all assholes (to most people; to me, occassionally) simply because their levels of expertise come with the sacrifice of social niceties (not always, but often).

      [within their circles, however, they are respected as gods]

      ----

      But to offer from their perspective (as a stupider brother of these two): most people my two "asshole" brothers deal with actually are quite stupid [relatively]; they are having to deal with us "morons" on an hourly basis [†]

      Once you get past the outer asshole wrapper, these are the people that are driving our societies (for better or worse) "forwards" – do not forget this – they are assholes because they care so much about their work/goals [∑]

      [†] remember the Carlin joke: think of the average person, and realize that half of people are dumber that that || to true geniuses (which I am not, but two brothers are) we are all "fucking idiots, most of the time" (to paraphrase their amalgamation)

      [∑] e.g: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price%27s_law> [tl;dr: half the work is performed by the sqrt(#people)]

      • t43562an hour ago
        I don't think intelligence entitles anyone to being an arsehole thought it might sometimes be frustrating. Lets say we make AIs that are more intelligent than us in the end - do we want them being arseholes to us just to achieve some new technology or dream that they have? Perhaps we would be just as happy without scalable fonts on our computers or phones that we can doom-scroll on and don't need to be whipped into achieving them?
        • ProllyInfamousan hour ago
          >do we want them being arseholes to us

          My hypothetical argument (based on forty years with these two humans) is: the opposite would be worse (for these rare mental powerhouses "to not care," to not produce).

          The bigger concern I have in a world of genAI-overlords is that too many competing AIgoalsetters will result in us humancattle becoming "tragedied in the commons," where too many competing goals overwhelm the limits of actual humanity's desire "to care" [i.e. most people do NOT want to work all the time; these two brothers do, as I presume hyperintelligent genAIs will, as well].

          #They'reMadeOutOfWeights #Inexhaustable

          ----

          I am an identical twin with one of these entities, yet am (probably) among the laziest people I've ever met (not that I can't/don't/&haven't worked), but I prefer to do literally nothing (hobbies, only, in limited dosages).

          • t43562an hour ago
            I have 2 older brothers and idolised them until more recently. To me it sounds like you feel a bit overshadowed. Personally I would reject that whole thing. I know you're proud of them but you don't have to be proud at your own expense.

            There are many engineers in the world and quite a lot of driven people who achieve things and enjoy letting one know it but the world is 8 billion people now and nobody can be Isaac Newton or Einstein or whatever. Nobody is really irreplaceable and one should not try to compete for renown unless one wants to make oneself unhappy. If someone loves you and you have enough to eat and somewhere to sleep and you're not overly worried about tomorrow then you're winning and if one of those things is missing then sort it out but don't go around talking about how you're lazy. ** that s*t.

      • karmickoala33 minutes ago
        The argument here is that "know-it-all assholes" arise spontaneously if you excel in a field and care so much about it, which I kind of agree with. The corollary here seems to be that several people associate being an asshole as meaning you're good at something. However, that's just an excuse for being an asshole, as it's not a necessary condition to excel at something. It's only through our lack of discipline to tame our own minds that leads us to becoming assholes in general and using expertise as an excuse.

        Those should not be ideals we strive for; you can excel without sacrificing social niceties and we should strive for intellectual humility. As one gets better in their respective fields (specially in ours that is always changing so fast), one should try to keep its ego in check. There is a saying in my country: "No one is so big that they cannot learn, nor so small that they cannot teach."¹

        The problem with "know-it-all assholes" is that most think they are always talking to someone below them and their expertise carry on to all other fields². Their pride may prevent them from admitting from learning from even the most ignorant of beings.

        As an exercise, ask your brothers the times that they were wrong (specially if there was anytime that came from someone that surprised them). If they fail to recollect many stories, I fear you're only hearing one part of the story and you'll never know it yourself. Steve Jobs himself used to do that: people would bring ideas to him that he would dismiss. A week later, he would come back with the idea presented as his.

        We should strive to be gentle and humble to anyone, despite success in a field: we'll never know who we're talking to and what they can teach us. Perhaps is our misconception that we think that we're average (or above average) that prevents us from learning from other people.

        -----

        ¹There is a variation, "No one is so ignorant that they have nothing to teach, no one is so wise that they have nothing to learn.", but I kinda like the former because it fits perfectly with the Lord of the Rings.

        ²I'm not raising the Dunning-Kruger card here.

      • cindyllman hour ago
        [dead]
    • LatencyKills2 hours ago
      I spent 11 years at Apple and attended many meetings with SJ. It was amazing to see how quickly he could understand a problem while, at the same time, being brutally harsh about why it hadn't already been solved. No one but Steve would have been allowed to consistently act that way towards coworkers.

      Steve showed a generation of CEOs that being an asshole was a viable strategy.

    • boxed2 hours ago
      > What I've realized throughout the years of working is that being able to work as a team is almost more important than your technical capacity. You can always become better in your field, but becoming a better human is a lot harder.

      Is this a true realization though? Lots of people are very nice, but Jobs got a shit ton done that was truly remarkable.

      • unknownfuture2 minutes ago
        Survivorship bias. My own experience is that the jerks self-select out because no one wants to work for them.

        That said, in the entrepreneurial space it's less clear to me this is true. In a team setting? Sure. But the C-suite of a business isn't necessarily a team sport and a lot of wildly successful CEOs are notoriously pieces of shit including Gates, Bezos, Zuck, Musk, and many others.

    • xyzelement2 hours ago
      [dead]
  • ezekiel682 hours ago
    So many things that could be said about this. For one -- I truly enjoyed the accidental repetition in the article that marked the effort as likely not aided too much by AI.

    But I couldn't help, most of the way through it, to crystalize the respone, "How did we get the idea Tim Cook was chosen because he was likely to be much like Steve Jobs?" Honestly, having watched the Steve Jobs commencement address several times, I kept going back to his declaration that "Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new."

  • gnuplustoejaman hour ago
    Bill Burr has the only reasonable take on Steve Jobs:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3s-qZsjK8I

    • ProllyInfamousan hour ago
      Is this the bit where he talks about Steve Jobs getting onto several states' organ-transplant registries (simultaneously) so he could eventually "cut the line," using trafficked Tennessee bodyparts, to get his replacement liver installed?
      • intevan hour ago
        source re: "trafficked Tennessee bodyparts"?
  • detourdogan hour ago
    Totally off topic. I think it's important to point out that this is the first planned CEO transition at Apple. Every other CEO was fired or died.
    • lucky_cloud18 minutes ago
      Jobs resigned six weeks before he died.
      • gwbas1c2 minutes ago
        That's a technicality
      • detourdog9 minutes ago
        My guess if he could stand up he would have continued to go to work.
  • newAccount20252 hours ago
    2025-09 would be helpful context for the article link
  • knivets2 hours ago
    2025 Apple is a perfect representation of 2025 America.
  • throwawayffffasan hour ago
    > most of the things people attribute to him seem like guesses about a guy who was very hard to predict and often inconsistent.

    The author is doing the same. Personal background has minimal impact in these kind of decisions.

    Policy is about what happens to other people for politicians (and billionaires).

    It made sense for apple to suck up, in order to avoid vindictiveness and extract benefits.

    If they get super lucky, the tide turns and they keep going as if nothing happended a couple of trillion dollars richer.

    If they are less lucky things get more authoritarian, they keep most of their autonomy extract more benefits, and dear leader keeps their balls in a small box on his desk.

    If they get unlucky, the mercurial dear leader decides he is done with them, and their companies get broken up at best, or they fall out of windows down the road.

    We have seen the last scenario play out in Russia, and the second one play out in China.

    Taking a stand and calling out what's happening might be the decent thing to do, but gets them nothing.

    This of course only applies to billionaires running huge companies, everyone else is pretty much better of making a stand.

    • t43562an hour ago
      The best way to make a stand for them is to use their money to fund education.
  • dzonga43 minutes ago
    you can blame Tim Cook for other things - but giving trump that useless statue - you can admire Tim Cook for his shrewdness & political capacity.

    he knew he was facing an incompetent petty adversary. so instead of preserving his ego - he damaged his instead of damaging Apple itself. that's a martyr like sacrifice.

    has Tim Cook put company profits over the customer - yes. but has Tim Cook preserved apple's value & position yes when it could have been severely damaged by trump, YES.

    • budman125 minutes ago
      It was shameful handing over the gold to the orange one.

      Hopefully in 2 years every company that 'bended the knee' will excise the leadership that thought it was a good idea. Shows a lack of good judgement and understanding of the social order.

      Your integrity as a leader has value. Squandering it to slow down some tariffs is foolish.

    • LatencyKills35 minutes ago
      As someone who spent half their career at Apple, I can't even begin to tell you how ridiculous that sentiment is. You won't find Apple employees who agree with you. It was infinitely embarrassing to see Tim bend over for a fascist asshole. Apple is now in the "bowed to Trump" group.

      I will be glad when the Tim Cook era is over for good.

  • alsetmusican hour ago
    John Ternus has been CEO of Apple for about six hours (Pacific Time / California time zone). I have optimism. The head of hardware took over. If anyone is a product person, it might be the guy making their hardware shine.

    Where Apple has been falling down is software. Vertical integration of hardware and software is their bread and butter, so I have to think he appreciates the software layer in ways that Cook (a business guy) is unable to appreciate. Wow, I really hope so. This could be a nice resurgence of quality coming up. I really hope I'm right.

    I mean, a guy with an engineering degree is gonna be in charge. That's not Steve, who didn't earn a degree but had a deep product sense. But it's very different from Tim, who has no computer-nerd inside.

    • VCFundedGenYeran hour ago
      Satya Nadella was an engineer CEO for the first few years at MS before he became completely AI lobotomized requiring literally all of his peons to do his work for him while he makes weird blog posts about a reality that doesn't exist.

      If Ternus doesn't fall into that trap, he'll be great.

      • BearOso38 minutes ago
        He had a kind of decent plan to improve things, but when AI popped up he panicked and went crazy. Same thing happened to Zuckerberg, who abandoned his VR crap and dumped into AI at a massive cost.

        The AI companies' marketing plan, FOMO, worked--just on themselves and competitors.

      • brazukadevan hour ago
        > requiring literally all of his peons to do his work for him while he makes weird blog posts about a reality that doesn't exist.

        And also being a supporting character at podcasts: https://youtu.be/WEnBCfzsgyE?t=95

    • rTX5CMRXIfFGan hour ago
      Man, people here are delusional. You think the purpose of a CEO, especially in a multi-trillion dollar company, is to be _the_ product guy?

      Everyone here is like “Jobs would have done this would have done that”, but the truth is he never lived long enough to turn Apple into the profitable and, mind you, financially resilient giant that it is today. It’s all idolatrous speculation, meanwhile Tim Cook has actually put in the work.

      • brazukadev42 minutes ago
        Comparing Apple to China, Steve Jobs was Mao Zedong while Tim Cook is like Deng Xiaoping. Lets see if the next CEO will be Apple's Xi Jinping.
  • voidUpdatean hour ago
    > "just one generation after IBM had sold its mainframe computers to the Nazis, when that company provided the numbers that would be inked onto the wrists of the prisoners held in concentration camps"

    IBM was selling mainframe computers before 1945? That's impressive, since ENIAC, the supposed first general purpose computer, was invented in that year

  • cmiles82 hours ago
    The article is a bit disingenuous.

    Steve’s main claim to fame was Apple 2.0 when he brought the company back from the brink of bankruptcy. He had almost no choice but to take radical bet-the-farm bets as the status quo was the company goes bankrupt.

    Tim Cook inherited a company on an upward trajectory and kept it going. His core job was don’t $&@? it up, and at that he was very successful. Was Apple potentially less innovative during his tenure? Yeah probably, but it was stable and grew massively under his oversight, which was the job. Most shareholders that held their stock after Steve left are very happy with their returns since then.

    • throwuxiytayq2 hours ago
      I think I, and maybe even Jobs, would be more interested in whether phoneholders are happy with the phones they’re holding.
      • ang_cire2 hours ago
        Considering he told them they were holding it wrong when they weren't happy with it, I doubt that.
        • detourdog2 hours ago
          He was correct that changing hand positions had a positive effect and a minor imposition. If they had recalled the phones I wouldn't have sent mine back the iPhone 4 was great and I was a satisfied customer. This was a long time ago and it is probably time to move on.

          https://news.macgasm.net/iphone-news/how-apple-fixed-antenna...

          • daveoc64an hour ago
            That article and your memory glosses over the fact that Apple redesigned the antenna to fix the actual problem in later devices - the antenna was changed in the Verizon iPhone 4 (which came out later), as well as the iPhone 4S and all subsequent models.
            • detourdogan hour ago
              No where did I say the phone didn’t need a redesigned antenna. Just that as shipped it did function.
              • brazukadev37 minutes ago
                if the design was bad then people weren't holding it wrong.
                • detourdog32 minutes ago
                  How semantic do you want to get?
      • rTX5CMRXIfFGan hour ago
        Well that’s a fickle and non-homogeneous bunch. You place too much importance on your own opinion.
        • throwuxiytayq34 minutes ago
          > You place too much importance on your own opinion.

          No, I don’t. It’s worked brilliantly for me for decades. You should try it sometime - if you have any decent opinions, that is.

  • thefz2 hours ago
    Oh yeah Jobs was such an anarchist who stuck it to the man.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

    • BearOso32 minutes ago
      In Jobs's time, 2007-2011 there was still a lot of overall pushback against PRISM, and also from Apple. I remember reading that they reviewed and only ended up complying with 3 requests. It's not nothing, but Google and Microsoft were far more eager to offer up their data.
  • comrade12342 hours ago
    I've seen the other reality and two words: no notch.
  • anArbitraryOnean hour ago
    I'm glad the abominable child sexual predators were mentioned. Poor Aisha bint Abi Bakr
  • not-so-darkstar2 hours ago
    he sure does like talking about steve jobs
  • 737min2 hours ago
    Crazy to talk about selling out when the real selling out isnt to the American government, but to the Chinese Communist government. Plenty of Aplle photops with actual dictators.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/23/opinion/apple-tim-cook-ou...

    • 29 minutes ago
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  • dolmenan hour ago
    Quote:

    > There's no point in having fuck-you money in the bank if you never say "fuck you"!

  • josefritzishere2 hours ago
    This is a great read. It accurately describes both the personality differences between Cook and Jobs but also the core of moral leadership. "Here is an idea: Apple could, rather than creating golden bribes for child sexual predators, actually send a message to its users explaining that it would like to continue providing value to its customers, and ask those customers for help making that case to their elected officials."
  • bantunes2 hours ago
    > There's no point in having fuck-you money in the bank if you never say "fuck you"!

    Absolutely right.

    • conmod2782 hours ago
      Generally people who have fu money don't want their fu money to be reduced by a fu amount. There is your answer.
  • Marciplanan hour ago
    anil sold out stackoverflow
  • raffael_dean hour ago
    hot take: tim cook could sell out apple only because google sold out android. it's like everybody is selling each other and their grandmas out these days.
    • jeffgrecoan hour ago
      Agreed. Same thing on desktop: Apple is pulling Windows-style stuff like putting ads in the OS and forcibly bundling software (just try deleting News.app on MacOS) only because Windows has meanwhile reached even lower lows.
  • saejox2 hours ago
    A worse person does not make another good.
  • fortran772 hours ago
    > Steve Jobs was, amongst many other things, the biological son of an unmarried Syrian immigrant who was in the United States on a student visa, and he grew up to be a person who had a really good sense of when to say “fuck you" to the man.

    What an odd statement. Steve Jobs didn't know his biological parents until he was well into adulthood. And if you're going to bring up his biological father, who he wanted little to do with, why ignore his biological mother, Joanne Carole Schieble?

    According to the NY Times, "Steve Jobs developed a relationship with his biological mother, Joanne Schieble [Simpson], while firmly declining a relationship with his biological father, Abdulfattah “John” Jandali."

    https://archive.nytimes.com/bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/2...

    • syspec16 minutes ago
      Agreed, there's zero connection to his biological fathers story and how he grew up. The student visa thing is even more bizzare, it's just a bunch of incongruent sentences
    • jeromegvan hour ago
      Regardless, he wouldn't be in America without immigration. That's the point.
      • fortran77an hour ago
        Neither would I. What’s your point?
  • 2 hours ago
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  • arthurfirst2 hours ago
    Imagine thinking there is an option but to kiss the ring and still be allowed to play or that there are even two sides.

    Imaging thinking it even matters what Tim cook or Trump do. Imagine thinking Tim Cook is anything but a stand in book keeper and stock promoter. Imagine thinking Trump is anything but a heel turn pro wrestler. Trump is bunkem for the masses and Tim Cook is irrelevant and a follower.

    Steve was a an idea guy. Tim was a seeker of efficiencies and consensus -- boring and common.

    I didn't buy one apple product during Tim's tenure but I still have my IIe and several old Macs converted to Linux.

    Genius is often regarded as brutish or mean by lesser people. Your feelings on it do not matter.

  • mc322 hours ago
    The writer is juxta Steve’s bastard of a father’s status as a visa overstay to contrast with Trump’s policy vis a vis illegal immigration (which doesn’t differ much in practice from his lauded predecessors policies) yet Steve if he did not loathe his biological father in the least completely ignored his existence as much as he ignored the existence of his own bastard daughter.

    Yes Tim is not Steve. We all knew that and know that, so? It’s still the company that most respects its users’ privacy, which isn’t saying much but it respects it more than other companies with foreigners at the helm such as Microsoft and Google. Not that I think they’d be different if run by American born leadership. Bill nor Eric would not be better. It’s the state of affairs in the world today.

  • VCFundedGenYeran hour ago
    Nah.

    Cook was simply too weak to resist enshittification. He was just another CEO.

    Steve Jobs was a sociopath and an absolutely terrible leader himself, but he was a different kind of terrible.

  • speedbirdan hour ago
    “Mainframes”
  • nextstep2 hours ago
    2025. He’s right, Tim Cook is a coward and no better than the rest of the oligarchs who kissed the ring and played the game.

    But Anil also falls into this trap of believing the myth of Jobs over who he actually was. Steve Jobs was a Silicon Valley capitalist who took parts the hippie counterculture ethos and baked it into an image that sold well to consumers. He was not some revolutionary, he just successfully used the language of revolution to sell a better product than his competitors.

  • 1239176129an hour ago
    Early Apple hardware was horrible and only for fanboys with a Steve Jobs messiah complex.

    Tim Cook ordered the production of decent hardware and pretty impressive ARM processors.

    Jobs is the son of an immigrant? So is Kash Patel.

    I do find the submissiveness of tech CEOs towards Trump ridiculous, especially since they pretended to be woke under Biden. Now corporate fascism has been unmasked. Better don't forget if a Democrat wins in 2028 and the CEOs are "woke" again. But singling out Cook? Really?

  • 18 minutes ago
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  • altmanaltman2 hours ago
    Yes, Steve Jobs was such a fuck you to the establishment. He never had government contracts with NeXT. The article calls him a son of an immigrant five times as if that is a moral virtue for some reason. Dude was a pretty trash human being in reality but people keep seeing him as tech jesus. This article actually suggests Apple ask its customers to vote towards a particular political issue which is a hilarious take given Apple's size. They will not care if a Deamon from hell becomes the president, they will still negotiate and try to continue operations instead of becoming a political activist.

    Author is projecting their own political outlook as the only correct one and is again turning Steve Jobs into tech jesus without acknowledging historical facts and realities of thing. Furthmore, Tim Cook deserves a lot of criticism but not having a spine cannot be one of them because his role isnt to rage against the machine.

    • ceejayozan hour ago
      > He never had government contracts with NeXT.

      https://www.wsj.com/tech/steve-jobs-apple-next-cia-161b65f9

      "The Hidden Debt That Apple Owes to the CIA: Without CIA funding that helped keep NeXT afloat in the ’80s, Steve Jobs might not have made a triumphant return to Apple—and the iPhone might not have its foundational operating code."

    • embedding-shape2 hours ago
      > Furthmore, Tim Cook deserves a lot of criticism but not having a spine cannot be one of them because his role isnt to rage against the machine.

      Isn't Cook the guy who literally gave a gold statue to a sitting US president? I probably couldn't come up with a more spineless move even if I tried. Doesn't require a "rage against the machine" mindset to not intentionally go out of your way to participate in open and public corruption of politicians. Or am I remembering the wrong person here?

      • andsoitis2 hours ago
        Why do you think it is spineless? I thought it is masterfully manipulative.
        • an hour ago
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        • ceejayozan hour ago
          And honestly, these things should be deeply insulting to anyone with half a neuron. FIFA's Peace Prize, for example; a toddler is capable of seeing through that.
          • andsoitisan hour ago
            The juxtaposition illustrates the mastery Tim displayed in his manipulation.
      • Nemi2 hours ago
        Look, I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but Cook's job, being the CEO, is playing politics. It is literally part of the job. Making sure your company is not going to get legislated out of existence is one of the things you must do as CEO.

        I would not want that job. As a matter of fact, as I started up the ladder in the company I was working for I realized that politics (internal and external) are a big part of the job and I was just not suited nor qualified for it, so I quit. But that is what CEO's must do if they want their company to be successful.

      • noir_lord2 hours ago
        > Or am I remembering the wrong person here?

        No that was indeed Tim Cook (though it was 24 karat gold plaque not a statue).

        Whatever his legacy is, that's a thing people are going to remember him for, Bending the knee to a President who should never have been President in the first place.

    • mc322 hours ago
      Moreover Steve did not recognize nor ever speak of his bastard father. Similarly to how he hardly recognized his own bastard daughter. Steve only spoke of his adoptive parents.
  • CGMthrowaway2 hours ago
    Apple has not had an SVP of Industrial Design for 7 years, since Jony Ive left. This is why every phone is a copy of the last and there is no real product innovation anywhere
    • ceejayoz2 hours ago
      Crocodiles haven't changed much in 200 million years. Maybe it's possible that a form factor is largely correct for its use case after a while?

      I'm inclined to see Apple Silicon as fairly innovative.

      • vrighter2 hours ago
        "yo we heard you like camera bumps so we put camera bumps on your camera bumps so you can camera bump while you camera bump"

        I wouldn't say they're an exact copy...

      • gjvc2 hours ago
        > Maybe it's possible that a form factor is largely correct for its use case after a while?

        very much so -- same for UI components, which they keep changing for no good reason except to feel "fresh and new"

        • fainpulan hour ago
          "delightful"
        • andsoitis2 hours ago
          Fresh and new is a feature. And it is one that affect purchase decisions and brand perception.
          • bobiman hour ago
            I love boring-that-works but that's just me. Right about brand preception, it made me move to jolla, lots of suffering and a sense of acomplishment because fewer cents of my money going to far right pockets.
            • andsoitis33 minutes ago
              > it made me move to jolla

              Where's Jolla? I did a quick place search (explicitly excluding La Jolla) but nothing turns up.

    • detourdog2 hours ago
      Industrial Designer here and I believe Ive became too influential in areas. I believe a boring and consistent form factor is better than new models every year. This is what killed the USA auto-industry. Personally the iPhone 4 was a great form factor and I was glad for the reversion to that design. Minor tweaks and scaling for size is really all that is needed.
    • sbarre2 hours ago
      That said one could argue that phones are now "solved" and the idea of iterating and changing just for the sake of changing is unwelcome. Much like laptops?

      I don't want my next phone to be something I need to figure out all over again. I want the buttons in the same place, the OS to work the same way..

      My phone is just another thing in my daily life like my car or my coffee machine. The less I have to think about any of those things - vs. just using them and getting on with my day - the happier I am.

      • walrus012 hours ago
        A phone can only get so big, and there's only so many viable shapes and form factors. I don't know what more innovation anybody expects in a rectangular tablet form factor that can still fit into pockets and purposes. Folding phones are expensive and a gimmick so far and have not achieved much market share.

        There's advances to be had in cameras, battery life and other tech inside the rectangular slab, but in terms of innovating on the form factor, the practical reality of what people want to hold and put in their pockets will dictate the maximum size and form factor.

      • FiddlyPack2 hours ago
        Tbh I want my 3GS form factor back. That design was the "right" one imho, and we lost it due to market pressure for bigger screens and better cameras, when what we needed to do was keep the utility but largely stay off our screens.
      • andsoitis2 hours ago
        But they do keep evolving the iPhone and its functionality. You need taste and a great sense of user experience to do it well. Apple also sells more things than juts iPhones.
      • 405nm2 hours ago
        you can’t think of a single thing that could be better about the hardware and software experience of phones?

        not one?

    • raverbashing2 hours ago
      Yes they haven't shipped keyboards that break after a while for being too thin

      Ive has been working at other stuff, like building a Ferrari that looks more like a giant RC car

    • mcntsh2 hours ago
      they've started to get a big bulge on the top-left of the device and no longer sit flat on a table. Oh and they popularized silicon cases that dont go in or out of pockets.
      • applfanboysbgon2 hours ago
        > big bulge on the top-left of the device and no longer sit flat on a table

        Fucking hate this trend so much. My Pixel 8 is an absolute dogshit phone compared to my Pixel 2 for the same reason. Phones are giant now, impossible to use with one hand anymore, and slide off of fucking everything because they don't lie flat, and are uncomfortable to hold with how top-heavy they are too. I wish phone design would have stagnated, about 10 years ago. A phone's form factor did not need innovating! It was already perfect!

        • qsera2 hours ago
          I don't get the markets obsession with big phones. May be size is a proxy for battery life...
          • keyringlightan hour ago
            Depends what they're used for, if it's for lightweight-demands mobile communications and simple tasks then I'd definitely agree. However the phone has become the personal computer for many and covers a broad range of tasks, let alone before you consider demanding users.

            If you've got one device for all your computing then you want something more capable, I think there's more scope for variation is when it's in conjunction with another device, mobile plus your choice of watch/tablet/laptop/desktop/etc. that doesn't necessarily have to be on your person or quickly accessible, task dependent.