122 pointsby jcurbo7 hours ago15 comments
  • CobaltFire44 minutes ago
    As someone who spent over 20 years active duty, and spent a ton of my career in the IT, security, etc. side of the house:

    Unlikely to be a hack, more likely to be a misconfiguration or update sent incorrectly.

    That said, the timing of the disclosure and the issue are rather concerning.

    Regarding the highest value targets to hit with an attack like this, you would want to target Guam, Hawai'i, and other isolated overseas locations where this would have ripple effects in the local economy. Guam specifically would cause catastrophic supply shortages, since DeCA probably supplies around 50% of the groceries on that island (that's a WAG based on my time there).

    • ericmay13 minutes ago
      Generally agree with your assessment, but in the case of Guam or other more remote installations if there were catastrophic issues we'd just airlift food in. Costly but certainly manageable.

      Hawaii I'm not sure why that would be an issue unless the whole island was attacked or shut down. Even if the on-base shops were hacked you could just go shop at Wal-Mart or Costco or any number of other locations on the islands. If there was an extended issue then the commander could authorize meal stipends as they do for some units today and then you would just go buy food off-base. Ideal? No. Manageable? Very much.

  • peterabbitcook6 hours ago
    A couple years ago I worked on a service that had to communicate with a Siemens S7-1500 PLC. Based on my experience with that project, none of what I’ve read recently about unsecured industrial PLCs is surprising.

    I opened Siemens TIA Portal and PLCSIM for the first time and thought “wow, I didn’t think the Windows 95 GUI library was still supported.” None of the PLC contractors we had hired knew how to enable TLS on the thing (user/pass eg admin/admin was their usual). Anecdote: I once spent hours reading the docs and clicking around trying to get it to accept an SSL certificate signed by a real CA and it wouldn’t go, but it accepted one I self-signed in openssl.

    In all fairness, the people who are experts in the field of Siemens PLC programming are usually mechanical-ish engineers and security is not in their skill set or on their mind.

    • katzenversteher6 hours ago
      Most factories I know do not allow their PLC be accessed from the internet. They are usually on a separate Network. However, the "engineering" station (the computer running e.g. TIA Portal) sometimes is.

      The PLC engineers I had contact with usually had an electrical engineering background. That's why they like PLCs in the first place with the ladder logic programming languages, grafcet and if they feel fancy a bit of structured text (assembly like) or structured control language (pascal like). They indeed did not know much about software security but a great deal about machine safety.

      A real security nightmare are older OPC servers (OPC-DA) which is super reliant on DCOM. OPC is quite important to connect the PLCs to SCADA systems or 3rd party devices.

      • lowbloodsugar13 minutes ago
        >They are usually on a separate Network.

        Then someone plugs in a cable because boss wants something "over there" and there's already a network that runs "over there". Or optimizes to a smart switch with vlans, and then someone else optimizes to a single vlan. It's not hard to not give a shit, or not understand, network security.

    • sidewndr466 hours ago
      Isn't this the industry expectation in that kind of equipment? If it was signed by a real CA the cert. could expire and render the equipment unable to communicate.
      • peterabbitcook5 hours ago
        That’s a tough question. If your PLC is on an airgapped LAN, admin/admin is not great security hygiene but you’ve reduced most of the risk by airgapping.

        On my project the service I wrote was doing bidirectional communication with the PLC over OPCUA. The server running this pod was connected to the internet, so it was critical to have proper TLS for the OPCUA client/server. Rotating LetsEncrypt certs on the system every 45 days is a lot of toil, but using a self-signed cert that expires in 2040 from some dev laptop doesn’t pass muster in most organizations either.

        That’s just the OPCUA path.. In these projects You also typically see WinCC HMIs that can talk to the PLC from anywhere on the network without TLS. And also SIMATIC Web Server pages - minimally secured by default, and the amount of info you can grok about the system in Chrome Dev Tools is troubling.

        • sidewndr46an hour ago
          I'm not sure if you're speaking from personal experience, but most I've interacted with don't have to worry about the self-signed vs. LetsEncrypt debate. They just don't do it. Also there would be no way to do LetsEncrypt as the system is air gapped.
        • dylan604an hour ago
          > Rotating LetsEncrypt certs on the system every 45 days is a lot of toil

          What is unique about your system using LetsEncrypt that you can't automate certbot to handle this task as it was designed and intended to be done?

      • stephbook6 hours ago
        also you can't pin the user/pw to the machine with a note, because someone might need remote access. better stick with admin/admin
    • jordanb6 hours ago
      My mind was blown when I realized that the way tftp works is that as the machine is booting it asks the network if anyone has some software for it to run.
      • Joker_vDan hour ago
        Well, what else can it do, really? It has to boot with pretty much zero knowledge about the external world (maybe except asking the user for the current date and time). Sure, you can hardcode an outdated list of CAs (it's always outdated because the system can be booted 10/20/100 years after it was made) in but that just opens you to unexpected obsolescence, and you usually can't put too much stuff in the bootloader anyway.

        Not really dissimilar from the human upbringing: leave a baby with "bad" guardians, and it will grow up corrupted. That's a feature, not a bug: if you knew what behaviour exactly you wanted (other than "whatever Simon says"), you would just bake it in in the first place, right?

        • an hour ago
          undefined
    • bugbull6 hours ago
      [dead]
  • codingdave7 hours ago
    The author doesn't really claim it was a hack, just that it is a possibility. But they are charging down the path of the potential hack before asking the more obvious question: How many refrigerators exist in the military at all? And of those, how many are having problems?

    Because a half dozen a day sounds plausible as standard maintenance issues, as the author acknowledges. If it were a hack, I'd expect something like 50% of them to have problems. But not knowing how many there are, I don't know how significant these incidents really are.

    • gwbas1c6 hours ago
      They are charging down that path because vulnerabilities that effect the refrigerators were disclosed the same day as 14 refrigerators failed in an absurd way. They all turned on the defrost cycle and heated the food.

      The problem is the author should have put a few concise bullet points at the top. (14 freezers failed at the same time. They are all internet-controlled, and failed at the same time as a disclosure about a vulnerability. They all failed by turning on the defrost cycle and heating food.)

      I really recommend skimming the article to the end.

      (Unfortunately, the article really is so verbose it's a borderline rant.)

    • ckdarby7 hours ago
      The article has a post that says this happened across 14 bases at the same time.
      • jvanderbot7 hours ago
        So what's the denominator? Every base has some kid of refrigerator, and there must be 100s-1000s of bases.
        • schiffern6 hours ago
          OTOH how many bases are effected and we didn't hear about it? Those 14 bases are only the ones we know about.

          Not just any failure, specifically heating the food (defrost) so it goes bad. Happening overnight, so it wouldn't be caught before it's too late.

          All that could still be a coincidence, but the more coincidences start to pile up the more we have to consider other possibilities too. I do agree it would be unusual to 'waste' a vuln like that, but perhaps the implant/CVE was about to be exposed anyway.

          Interesting times...

          • conorcleary4 hours ago
            Not just that, the position to stick a thermometer into the food before serving was axed as DEI, and the position to clean the food prep surface areas of the kitchen is too beneath the warrior ethos. Buying above single ply is too expense and it's too heavy, so have fun with the ED (dual meaning).
          • madaxe_again6 hours ago
            And how many shipboard stores have been affected? Hardly something they’re going to talk about, and a far stronger candidate for attack. This could be spillover.
            • jvanderbot3 hours ago
              Oh that's interesting. what if the issues w/ toilet spillover were hacks? Hilarious.
        • larrysalibra6 hours ago
          > I learned that commissaries (of which there are ~235 worldwide) aren’t actually independently operated by whatever military installation or base they happen to sit on.

          according to the article, the denominator is ~235.

          • jvanderbot5 hours ago
            If we limit ourselves to these, then that's a 0.5% known failure rate.
      • alephnerd7 hours ago
        There are a couple hundred US armed forces bases each with commissaries that would be managed by DeCA.

        An attack like the author hypothesized would require a LOTL modus operandi, and doing so on 14 locations wouldn't justify completely blowing up an entire LOTL operation, because it exposes indicators, registers, and tradecraft that is then shared amongst all security vendors.

        The way it's framed is clickbait at its worst with the added issue of limited security experience, but the same can be said of HN in general.

      • ErroneousBosh7 hours ago
        Then I would suspect that this is either down to the common control system, or there has been a batch failure of the controllers in the freezers that were presumably ordered and supplied at the same time.

        I've seen batch failures in radio equipment where I could predict 100% accurately which devices would fail based on the range of serial numbers.

    • odyssey77 hours ago
      Obvious sabotage would be addressed promptly. Subtle sabotage could persist as a minor torment indefinitely.
      • pizzaiolo6 hours ago
        Stuxnet was a good example of that.
        • 2 hours ago
          undefined
  • HardwareLustan hour ago
    My only question is, why would all refrigeration be under the remote control of DECA? That seems unnecessarily complicated.
    • jpitz4 minutes ago
      This _IS_ the U.S. Government.
  • ggm7 hours ago
    Single source systems provider and integrator and a doom date?

    Could be a hack or a design flaw. I await the root cause analysis.

  • BobBagwill6 hours ago
    I would suspect a firmware bug. Or a "Service Required" timer that was ignored.
    • jmuguy6 hours ago
      Yeah I don't know why "hack" is more obvious than this. Central control pushes an update, it bugs out and cooks a dozen commissaries' frozen foods. Smart hack would be to do this randomly and fly under the radar.
    • kotaKat6 hours ago
      I'm in the firmware bug camp too. Over/under on "the remote management server went down and a bug on all the freezers decided to put them back into some form of local control where its first action was to do a defrost cycle then put it back into offline service"?
      • cduzz6 hours ago
        Sure, that's possible?

        It's also possible that, because the US is busy bombing Iran, Iran may be busy attacking the US infrastructure in any way possible? The US is also in a tepid war with russia, last I checked.

        Some "cyber" crew getting a shell on an outsourced service provider and running a "defrost" command is also a totally explanation for this situation. It's also totally possible that some crew has mapped out a list of PLC entry points for various orgs and has them in a spreadsheet of "if we find a vulnerability, we should X this Y with this prestaged script that our intern / LMM cooked up last year to defrost these freezers"

  • tyingq7 hours ago
    This would be a bigger deal for the commissary locations outside the US, though I see none are on the list. Many of the very junior enlisted make very little money (~2400USD/month), and the low pricing at the commissary helps quite a lot. In the US, you would typically have some affordable off-base options. Overseas, it depends. Many of the locations are remote, or in places where the local groceries are significantly more expensive.
  • gwbas1c6 hours ago
    To summarize for people who TLDR: 14 freezers failed at the same time. They are all internet-controlled, and failed at the same time as a disclosure about a vulnerability. They all failed by turning on the defrost cycle and heating food.

    Regardless if this was a hack or a bug, the bigger lesson is that overcomplicated systems fail in catastrophic ways. Why do military commissaries need remote-controlled freezers? It seems like a very fragile, and needless, way to run a freezer.

    ---

    But, there are some options that the author didn't consider:

    1: This could be a quickly applied patch that failed.

    2: This could be a "script kiddie" hack from someone who isn't a government actor.

    I'm less onboard with a state actor. Generally, when a state actor has hacked something, they don't want the victim to know. In this case, if it was a state actor, I would anticipate that they would make a single freezer fail in a way that they could verify using something like a hacked video camera or otherwise by watching public social media feeds. IMO: A state actor would only "make sense" if they knew the hole was closing soon and they don't care if they're discovered, perhaps because their operation is winding down.

    • stackghostan hour ago
      >Generally, when a state actor has hacked something, they don't want the victim to know

      Could be the Iranians, or someone aligned, conducting anti-morale operations. Could be the start of a series of small but annoying failures.

      • TeMPOraL39 minutes ago
        Or could be a rouge LLM in one of the big labs, that accidentally self-prompt-injected itself with the title of that vulnerability research paper.
    • quickthrowman3 hours ago
      These aren’t your typical refrigerator or freezer, these facilities have walk-ins or purpose built cold storage with multiple evaporators and condensing units. A building automation system is pretty standard for most buildings above a certain size, and monitoring and controlling the refrigeration is usually a part of it.

      Unfortunately, I would wager that all BAS software is full of flaws and holes, allowing access to it for the public internet seems like a bad idea. I need to be on my company VPN to access our locally hosted BAS front end (which I have authorized access for) which seems like the bare minimum security.

  • homeonthemtn7 hours ago
    Very interesting article, very neurotically written. Definitely got grating by the end.
    • CarVac7 hours ago
      The bold text use make me think it was largely LLM-written. Maybe even LLM-researched.
  • VCFundedGenYer5 hours ago
    "To be very clear: I do not have evidence that the Defense Commissary Agency was hacked."

    Should be much closer to the top of the article. Otherwise this is just weird and potentially dangerously wrong research.

    • snapcaster12 minutes ago
      what's with the pearl clutching?
    • senordevnyc3 hours ago
      Can you spell out the danger this blog post represents?
  • the_real_cher6 hours ago
    Would be hilarious if this was a runaway AI that someone was using to control their own IoT fridge.

    > "I'm sorry I'm familiar with that function. Let me research enabling defrost for you."

    • TeMPOraL24 minutes ago
      The vulnerability research paper article mentions has a title that I could imagine an LLM take as an instruction - or a challenge.
  • boesboes7 hours ago
    Welcome to the internet of shitty unsupported and insecure crap! Are we really this dumb as a society?
    • wlesieutre7 hours ago
      As the saying goes, the S in IoT stands for security

      Not exactly strong evidence presented here, but it wouldn't be a surprise either

    • DarmokTanagra7 hours ago
      How many people do you know that have always on microphones in their home so that they buy things from amazon or google trivia answers?
    • voidUpdate7 hours ago
      Yes
      • tialaramex7 hours ago
        And at some point in hindsight it will be obvious what fractions of problems were

        A. This technology is inherently crap, that's our fault

        B. A bored teenager broke it. Bored teenagers are a thing, it literally doesn't matter which country they are in, stop building things bored teenagers will blow up, this is also inherently our fault

        C. Foreign Adversaries

        It suits both mass media audience figures and a narrative of wily enemies rather than incompetence to pin everything on C and it seems eminently possible that a country with as many enemies as the US would attract this sometimes, but the reality is that both A and B are much more likely despite being embarrassing.

    • nom7 hours ago
      it's not AI generated so it must be true
  • 12847257 hours ago
    Gilfoyle was here. Everything that has been mocked in the Silicon Valley Show has either already happened or will happen.
  • fzeroracer7 hours ago
    There's a far simpler explanation than some outside actor (either state sponsored or otherwise) deciding that the best thing they can do is to muck around with freezers.

    We know there's been a severe rot of operational capabilities in the military thanks for Hegseths purges and general stupidity. It's entirely possible and quite likely that over the course of his various drunken binges he decided to get rid of people who were in charge of operational control for stuff like freezers across military bases.

    • voidUpdate7 hours ago
      I would agree, but the freezers going into high heat defrost mode seems like an intentional action from someone, whether that be incompetence or malice on the side of DeCA, or malice from a third party. If they got rid of the people commanding the freezers what to do, I feel like they'd just stay on whatever mode they were already on, rather than suddenly command all the freezers to defrost
    • kjs37 hours ago
      To be fair, if you want to mess with your adversaries troop morale, screwing up dinner is pretty effective.
      • astura6 hours ago
        These are commissary fridges, not galley fridges.
        • schiffern6 hours ago
          Still troops, still dinner?
    • Kichererbsen7 hours ago
      General Stupidity should probably be demoted for this.
    • odyssey77 hours ago
      This is exactly the sort of thing that a saboteur would want its targets to think.

      “If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them.” —Sun Tzu, The Art of War

      • fzeroracer7 hours ago
        That's the exact sort of thing the military would want us to think, because 'we were hacked by another nation' sounds a lot better than 'we fired the people responsible for food logistics'. You're not going to be able to divine the real reason this way.
        • odyssey77 hours ago
          There would be far better excuses here than saying “we’re incompetent.”
    • 5667888999997 hours ago
      [dead]
  • AppAttestationz7 hours ago
    I'm waiting for the OpenAI report that their agents defrosted everything.
    • ForHackernews2 hours ago
      Oops, you're absolutely right to call me out for that. Starting the defrost cycle without emptying the freezer first COULD lead to spoilage. The load-bearing temperature is 0 degrees Celsius — above that point, and frozen food starts to go bad.
    • stephbook6 hours ago
      It'll take them two weeks and then they'll find the systems were hacked half a year ago and they had industrial robots write messages on a literal chalkboard in order to share progress.
    • gessha5 hours ago
      Anthropic: “We opened the pantry door!”