209 pointsby epestr7 hours ago22 comments
  • saidnooneever7 hours ago
    this is pretty old by now but still very relevant. people dont look at this enough but with rising chip complexities for TPU units etc. and a shift towards poorly documented hardware like NVIDIA gives this problem new fuel.

    Domas (and maybe his team or colleagues?) has put out shit tons of very interesting materials over the past years on advanced malware, implants and things like Cantor Dust which are amazing things to dive into.

    using his own cpu fuzzer, msr fuzzing techniques etc. he has found, reversed and implemented attacks through hardware bugs and backdoors.

    It cant be confirmed if a backdoor is malicious or for debugging but essentially the capabilities gained through them are what is important.

    These techniques he shows throughout his videos are not super tricky to replicate and I can recommend people who have interest to dive into it, reproduce things and try to help in this domain to raise awareness and findings.

    Another good avenu is: Defcon 21 - Decapping Chips The Strike Easy Hard Way

    People speak about supply chain issues in NPM and Pip etc. but these are much more severe and hard to detect.

    Almost no one looks at it. Most vendors totally ignore it because you cannot sell products against it. (if ud detect it u need to trash the hw so its not handy... for sales...)

    • rkagerer3 hours ago
      I didn't know what Cantor Dust was, and had to click through a few different search results to get past all the abstract descriptions and begin to form a basic idea.

      In a nutshell, I understand them as a sort of "blockie" for binary data formats. Things like WAV audio files, bitmaps, ASCII text, machine code, etc. each generate their own distinct visual signature (but different examples within any of these categories tend to generate similar signatures). So once you learn the "blockies" for different types of data, they really pop out when content is viewed this way ("hey there's an image buried in that sequence of 1's and 0's!").

      The explanation on this page isn't bad, and the bitmap example near the bottom is particularly illustrative (once you've seen the reference image for bitmaps earlier in the page):

      https://inside.battelle.org/blog-details/battelle-publishes-...

      My armchair-expertise here is only about 20 minutes old, but I hope this helps someone else looking for a starting point to learn about them!

    • mike_hock13 minutes ago
      A poorly documented or undocumented (debugging) backdoor in a chip marketed for ATMs and medical hardware, enabled by default, at the very least qualifies as reckless endangerment.
  • joss826 hours ago
    This backdoor only appears on decades-old VIA C3 embedded x86 processors
    • K0balt2 hours ago
      TBF the specific backdoor isn’t the point of the article. It’s a cautionary tale. The point is that practically all systems above the MCU level, and even some of those, have lower level systems that are often undocumented or not intended for use by the hardware designers, much less the end users. Those systems often have extremely low level access to system resources.

      For example, I am building a device that records motion data, video, audio, and lidar imaging. Inside the 6 dollar IMU and the 12 dollar lidar sensor are powerful processors that load binary blobs provided by the manufacturer. The lidar could potentially gain access to any of the system data stored on the SPI bus, which includes the bulk storage and secondary RAM for the system. It could exfiltrate that data using its laser to anyone within a few hundred meters in the laser fov. It could also receive remote c&c over its optical sensor. The only thing that prevents that from being the case is that I trust the blob does not include the code to do those things, but it would be trivial to replace the blob with one that does.

      Millions of devices are made that include basic wifi functionality. often, this comes in the form of a dedicated WiFi module. Those almost entirely consist of a powerful processor running a proprietary binary blobs, connected to some internal bus of the system that may give it access to some or all of the functions of the device, or at the very least could cause the device to malfunction. These WiFi phy modules are sub$1, pervasive, and often built in to devices that do not have any advertised connectivity features. A threat actor that has knowledge of an attack surface for that opaque blob can probably cause >50% of the connected devices built with that product to malfunction, in some cases in serious and dangerous ways, and sometimes to exfiltrate data that might be compromising or valuable.

      That’s what this article is really about.

    • littlecranky676 hours ago
      They should have mentioned that in the first line of the github readme, not burried deep down in the text.
      • RamRodification3 hours ago
        Buried? Deep down? The fourth paragraph, clearly labeled "Affected Systems", a minute or two into the read.
        • fph3 hours ago
          Opening with the title "hardware backdoors in x86 CPUs" is quite misleading, though.
        • rbanffy3 hours ago
          We have shorter attention spans now.
          • bunbun693 hours ago
            Multiple things can be true at the same time. While we do have shorter attention spans, some (lots of?) developers absolutely suck at writing articles
            • rbanffy3 hours ago
              I fancy myself as a decent writer, but I suck at writing documentation. People describe reading my notes frustrating and incomprehensible. I find it much better to use AI to untangle my, admittedly, convoluted reasoning
        • 3 hours ago
          undefined
        • netsharc2 hours ago
          Imagine getting a letter "High Risk of Cancer" and getting all the way to the 4th paragraph to see it's just relevant to a race of blue aliens...
    • userbinator5 hours ago
      It's not even a "backdoor", it's documented in the datasheet...

      http://datasheets.chipdb.org/VIA/Nehemiah/VIA%20C3%20Nehemia... (page 82)

      ...which along with the already publicly-known microarchitecture of the C3 makes this statement sound like total nonsense:

      The rosenbridge backdoor is a small, non-x86 core embedded alongside the main x86 core in the CPU

      I remember laughing at this with a few others knowledgeable in x86 when it first came out; a self-proclaimed "security researcher" who somehow failed to RTFM.

      There's even a Wikipedia article about it now, with a link to the alternate instruction set documentation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Instruction_Set

      • phire5 hours ago
        "It's documented in the datasheet" is such a weak excuse for a backdoor.

        Documenting a backdoor doesn't make it not a backdoor, just means it's not a hidden backdoor.

        The fact that a number of machines shipped with the backdoor accidentally enabled, and nobody noticed for over a decade shows just how dangerous even a documented backdoor can be. The oversight wasn't even detected by someone reading the manual, it was detected by a security researcher who wrote a generic tool to fuzz out such backdoors.

        • brador4 hours ago
          Doesn’t backdoor imply hidden? If it’s clearly documented it’s just a (front)door?
          • blank429384jf4 hours ago
            backdoor means a secondary access point that defeats the security features of the primary. In the door analogy, the home owner spends a ton on a lock and camera for the front door but doesn't even have a deadbolt on the back.
            • close044 hours ago
              Every definition of a “backdoor” in computing implicitly or explicitly considers it hidden/covert.

              In the house analogy you don’t see the backdoor when approaching the front. If it was just “an alternative everyone knows about and can be broken easier than the front door” then it probably would have been called “a window”.

              Most login forms have a weaker option like a SMS 2FA or password reset fallback. Nobody calls it a backdoor. It’s just a crappy second front door, or window.

              • blank429384jf4 hours ago
                I'm probably mistaken, but I've always referred to password resets as backdoors. Is there another term they could be classfied as?
                • close044 hours ago
                  > Is there another term they could be classfied as?

                  As an advertised feature of the product.

                  Your personal definition doesn’t match the general understanding of the word and concept. By your definition every window on a house or car is a “backdoor”. Anything with an advertised fallback is a backdoor. And sometimes the “front door” is the back door: getting money from an ATM is less secure than with an ID at the bank teller.

                  • blank429384jf3 hours ago
                    Password resets aren't "backdoors" unless they contain a flaw the defeats any security protections. It's not just that the backdoor is less secure than the front, the backdoor has no security or is so easily defeated the security may as well not exist.

                    I'm surprised the hidden aspect of backdoor is so forward in folks minds. In my thinking nothing in cyber security is hidden, I drop the obviously present hidden part of backdoor definition when it's used in yhe cyber security context.

                    • close043 hours ago
                      No offense but I don’t think you have a clear enough definition in your head and you’re making it up as we go along and you get challenged.

                      >> I'm probably mistaken, but I've always referred to password resets as backdoors

                      > Password resets aren't "backdoors" unless they contain a flaw the defeats any security protections.

                      You really have to make up your mind. It was “always” but then it wasn’t, and even as you put it you’d have been wrong almost every time to call a reset “a backdoor”.

                      > I'm surprised the hidden aspect of backdoor is so forward in folks minds.

                      Only because you misunderstand the meaning of the term, as made very clear above. Go through the wiki page for a “backdoor”.

                      > In my thinking nothing in cyber security is hidden

                      I wonder what all those security researchers do all day, with everything being so out in the open and known by everyone.

                      > I drop the obviously present hidden part of backdoor definition when it's used in yhe cyber security context.

                      You can drop it but then you’re just using the wrong definition and wrong understanding.

                      • blank429384jf37 minutes ago
                        no offense taken. i shouldnt have included password resets in my def. it muddied the conversation. covert is part of a def, at least sometimes, but i think its still acurate to drop it. consider a machine with two copies of ssh running, one of 22 with authentication and another on 2222 with an automatic root login. the instance on 2222 would be considered a backdoor, even though its barely hidden. Swap the ports and it's an unauthenticated frontdoor, but i'd still call it a backdoor and expect everyone to know what i mean. the important part is its bypassing securit, not that its hidden.
          • phire3 hours ago
            Not really... backdoor just means something that can bypass the main security.

            It's just that publicly known backdoors are of very limited usefulness, because people go out of their way to remove, disable, or avoid them. Or worse, use them for their own gains. There have been more than a few cases of governments trying to implement and enforce publicly known backdoors (with keys only the government knows), such as the Clipper cryptography chip in the 90s.

            But... just because something is documented, doesn't mean it's publicly known. We have an example here of something obscure enough to be a useful backdoor (assuming someone knew about it).

            And while the underlying feature might have been documented, the fact that many BIOSes enabled the feature was not documented anywhere. That does count as hidden.

      • inigyou5 hours ago
        Was this documentation public at the time? The pdf still does not document the instructions themselves.
      • cinntaile5 hours ago
        It's not as clear cut as you describe it here. In the other old thread you linked there was no real consensus if this should be considered a backdoor or not.
    • __atx__5 hours ago
      Also worth noting that the exploit was published nearly decade ago. Still, even at that time, those VIA CPUs were over 15 years old.
  • blueflow3 hours ago
    As noted by userbinator: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49220030

    Not a backdoor, but a documented CPU feature.

    The whitepaper about rosenbridge cannot be published because it would constitute scientific fraud.

    • alfanick3 hours ago
      > Not a backdoor, but a documented CPU feature.

      I would be even more explicit and call it “Not a backdoor, but a documented feature of ancient de facto unused Via C3 CPU.”

  • codedokode6 hours ago
    This shows that large companies making closed-source CPUs cannot be trusted. No doubt they would add whatever the government asks them to add.

    What can be done to mitigate this? One option would be to buy a large FPGA and flash it with an open-source CPU. Another would be to emulate a CPU, working with encrypted data and commands, so that even if the backdoor in a host CPU tries to overwrite memory, it would only crash the emulated OS. One more option would be to run the code in a Virtual Machine like QEMU which translates the code and prevents issuing unknown instructions.

    • v5v33 hours ago
      >What can be done to mitigate this?

      Buy hardware used by government computers that are rivals to your country.

      So if American, buy Chinese CPUs and install Chinese Linux or HarmoneyOS Assuming there is nothing you are doing of interest to them, as that will also have back doors

      After Snowden, one can only imagine the worst and think everything has a backdoor.

      But unless you are a high level terrorist or other person of interest, no state organization is going to target you at this level

      P.s. you say no one can trust closed source, but a lot of open source is maintained by one or two people or a small group, just takes infiltration by one or two trusted contributors to push malicious code in and unless someone looks and finds that code amongst millions of lines of code, may never be discovered (more so as mainstream media won't publish any thing)

      • amelius3 hours ago
        If many people do this then I'm sure China will find some uses for that data at some point.
        • Zigurd2 hours ago
          Sure but the cops aren't going to pull you over based on what you think about Chinese policy. Government do mess with people across international borders, but the capacity to do that is inherently limited.
          • amelius2 hours ago
            Blackmail is still a possibility ...

            Plus your data can be sold on the market. To US based entities. While the Chinese still hold on to the data for future uses ...

            • Zigurd42 minutes ago
              That still doesn't resolve who is more likely to blackmail or otherwise misuse data. I think it's a Chinese saying: the mountains are high and the emperor is far away.
      • 3 hours ago
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    • 5 hours ago
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    • anthk3 hours ago
      Once you control the hosts CPU it's game over for the guest. The best you can do is to fetch old PPC G4 Apple computers or Thinkpads.
  • rzzzt6 hours ago
    You can find recorded presentations on YouTube: https://youtu.be/_eSAF_qT_FY
  • jcalvinowens29 minutes ago
    A much better title would be "A hardware backdoor in a historical VIA x86 CPU".
  • sfdlkj3jk342a6 hours ago
    So is it apparent that this backdoor was intentionally added by VIA for nefarious purposes? Or is there any other reasonable explanation for its existence?
    • microtonal6 hours ago
      I was wondering the same, this is an ancient CPU by now, having been introduced in 2001. During development and at the introduction, most people were still running Windows 95/98/ME, which had more serious security issues (like every user essentially being admin). It may just have been a handy (debugging?) feature?
    • crest6 hours ago
      Yes there is a harmless explanation. The VIA C3 is a fairly simple CPU design that cracks x86 instructions into an internal simpler instruction format. Some complex x86 behaviour is normally implemented by lengthy microcode or complex state machines. VIA wanted to make their CPU simpler than Intel and AMD. To do that they exposed this internal instruction set to the BIOS to let it handle hardware initialisation and documented how to lock this feature safely away afterward. Some BIOS authors didn't read/understand the full specification. shrug.

      IIRC there are also a few hints they at least considered exposing this alternative instruction set at runtime to get more performance out of the CPU core e.g. more useable registers, more three operand instructions, saturating and packed math for DSP workloads, etc.

    • 5 hours ago
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  • zx80803 hours ago
    Title should be: ..in VIA C3 processors.
  • bassiee6 hours ago
    For Intel-ME and AMD PSP, you fundamentally can't see the backdoor they could produce unless you probe the seperate chip lol.
    • po1nt5 hours ago
      Or we use AI to find bug in those systems. Along with the way to completely disable those.
      • codedokode4 hours ago
        If you have an AI, you could make it analyze crystal photos?
    • BoingBoomTschak2 hours ago
      Even before that, wasn't SMM the OG x86 backdoor?
  • sph5 hours ago
    Should add (2018) to the title
    • epestr2 hours ago
      My bad, but I don't see an edit option anymore.
  • rbanffy3 hours ago
    It’s lovely to think some x86 CPUs have a nice ISA buried under the layers of cruft that form a recent x86 ISA.

    I still remember the time when mnemonics were 2 or 3 characters. Good days.

  • userbinator5 hours ago
    "Not this shit again"...

    Almost exactly 8 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17727140

  • ironbound3 hours ago
    Click bait title, please change it to VIA C3 CPUs
    • epestran hour ago
      My bad, HN doesn't allow editing after an hour of posting
    • netsharc2 hours ago
      I recommend flagging this sort of crap to death...

      Stupid autistic policy of "Don't editorialize the title"...

  • inigyou5 hours ago
    While the README calls it a separate core, it's more likely to be a direct encoding of uops.
  • StrLght3 hours ago
    (2018)
  • 5 hours ago
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  • IshKebab6 hours ago
    Can we add "some ancient Via CPUs" to the title. Current title is pure click bait.
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