101 pointsby refp6 days ago16 comments
  • userbinator5 hours ago
    Every time someone brings this up, I think "oh right, I could do that" and then immediately forget. Especially if you can type quickly, it's easier to just "drive straight ahead" with the command you want, than add another "mental branch" to interrupt the flow. For the same reason I'll often Ctrl+C and start again instead of trying to backspace and correct.
    • Retr0id2 hours ago
      "sudo !!" is quite firmly burnt into my muscle memory, but the whole rest of the time when I type an exclamation mark I mean it literally, and I get annoyed when it turns into a syntax error of some variety.
      • moring7 minutes ago
        Worse, the "press up-arrow to get the previous command, then fix the errors in it" flow is broken when an exclamation mark causes a syntax error.
    • adityaathalye3 hours ago
      As an Emacs using degenerate, `M-.` is my friend. `!` is too awkward on the keyboard.
      • pcbluesan hour ago
        I guess you could map it to the right-hand M key?
    • squigz2 hours ago
      As someone who can type rather quickly, I disagree. It can take some time to internalize, but once you do, it's much faster.

      Same with Ctrl-C - once I got used to navigating by word instead of by character to correct things, it became much faster than starting over.

  • inigyouan hour ago
    This is for teletypewriters. For those of us with interactive electronic video displays, we can use up-arrow to recall the last command or Ctrl-R to search history, then edit the recalled command.
    • amiga3863 minutes ago
      And for editing that command line... I know a lot of people who know about Ctrl-a, Ctrl-e, Ctrl-k, but still hold down the left arrow key or delete key a lot to edit things in the middle.

      Those people want to use:

          Alt-f    move cursor forward one word
          Alt-b    move cursor back one word
          Alt-d    delete to the end of the next word
          Alt-Del  delete backwards to the start of the previous word
      
          Ctrl-_   undo
      
      Here's a cheatsheet: https://readline.kablamo.org/emacs.html
    • pcbluesan hour ago
      I appreciate the true snark of this :)
  • jwr21 minutes ago
    I got used to doing this over many many years with the tcsh shell. I switched to Fish recently and I continue to be annoyed by its refusal to implement this feature. Yes, I tried using all the newfangled history-search thingamajigs. They all kind of work, and they all have their issues. But the !, together with in-place expansion, is something I still dearly miss.
  • idoubtit2 hours ago
    Decades ago, I was taught to use `!` and Co, by a Linux user who was fond of the `sudo !!` trick. Then I switched from this implicit interpolation to explicit shortcuts, and I'm glad I did.

    As suggested in the FAQ at the bottom, instead of !… you can use ctrl-r. Or better, optionally type the first letters then alt-p or "up". It's more powerful and more extensible. Other shortcuts, like alt-., allow navigating into the past parameters.

    With up, alt-p, alt-. and such, the command line displays the real command. The !… magic is more error-prone and ambiguous; with zsh, I'd suggest hitting TAB to expand the magic into a static text.

    I would add other entries to the FAQ: When I enter `sudo !!` will it be stored unchanged in the shell history, or stored after interpolation of `!!`? When I start a command line with a space, so that zsh does not put it in the shell history, will !… also ignore that line? Is `!$` recursive?

    • refpan hour ago
      Your questions would be a great addition to the FAQ, thank you!

      --

      > When I enter `sudo !!` will it be stored unchanged in the shell history, or stored after interpolation of `!!`?

      event-designators themselves do not end up in history, it will be the expanded contents:

          $ echo "hello world"
          hello world
          $ echo !$:s/world/idoubtit/
          echo "hello idoubtit"
          hello idoubtit
          $ history
              1  echo "hello world"
              2  echo "hello idoubtit"
              3  history
      
      The above is ironically enough quite annoying when writing a post about event-designators, as you'd want to reach for previous pre-interpolation commands.

      > When I start a command line with a space, so that zsh does not put it in the shell history, will !… also ignore that line?

      leading space to ignore adding things to the history is not default behavior, but event designators will still be able to capture their contents. Notice how "echo 321" is _not_ part of the history, but our usage of !$ is:

          % setopt HIST_IGNORE_SPACE
          % echo "abc"
          abc
          %  echo "321"
          321
          % echo last-argument-was !$
          echo last-argument-was "321"
          last-argument-was 321
          % history
          22092  setopt HIST_IGNORE_SPACE
          22093  echo "abc"
          22094  echo last-argument-was "321"
      
      > Is `!$` recursive?

      I think this is indirectly answered by the above, if not let me know and I will see if I can answer.

      ---

      Will try to update the post within the next few hours with your additional questions — much much appreciate the feedback, and thanks for reading!

  • Terr_5 hours ago
    Rather than a sense of "cool" or "useful" somehow I end up just feeling despair at how organically convoluted it is to determine what something on a command-line really does. To be fair, I've always been biased towards "only the simplest scripts should be in shell languages."

    This also adds an intriguing new dimensions to reviewing/verifying shell commands as benign and correct... How long until LLMs start (ab)using the trick in little requests they want me to approve?

    • CoastalCoder2 hours ago
      Maybe it's a bit like current C++ language spec:

      There's enough complexity in the language spec that most people stick with a (fairly shared) subset.

      Bash can be very powerful, but IMHO there's a certain point where I find it saner to accomplish the same thing via Python.

    • magarnicle3 hours ago
      man bash. That's the secret. man bash.
      • zoky2 hours ago
        The cool thing about programming languages like Ruby is that they’re very conducive to one-liners. You can use them to generate bash statements that you can then pipe back to bash. `ls | ruby -nle 'puts "mv #{$_} #{$_.gsub(/_/, ".")}"' | bash` is a pattern I use all the time, for example. Easy way of generating complex bash statements without having to bother with the bash man page.
        • wild_eggan hour ago
          Do you need to pipe the ruby output to bash? Ruby could just run the mv directly by wrapping in backticks instead of quotes.
      • pcbluesan hour ago
        Seems to be the flavour of the day :)
  • somat33 minutes ago
    > who haven't wished they could edit their long commands in an editor rather than in the shell?

    That's called a shell script. I don't know what others thresholds are but mine is about three pipelines deep(or 80 characters whatever comes first) and I am going to write that son of a gun as a script. Mainly to have something named in the filesystem I can edit, same with my sql queries, I have a whole directory of long awkward mostly one off queries, psql has the \e command which helps but again I would rather have something named.

  • hnlmorg3 hours ago
    I’ve been burnt before using ! and forgetting what command I typed previously, thus invoking the wrong command line.

    !! is handy for the sudo example, but beyond that, I tend to prefer pressing the up arrow to cycle through the history rather than picking the first item. Eg:

      !ssh
    
    vs

      ssh[up]
    
    
    It’s the same number of key strokes but less error prone
    • refp2 hours ago
      Worth noting that `ssh[up]` isn't available by default in bash nor zsh — though it wouldn't surprise me if helpers such as oh-my-zsh enables it for you. `ssh[up]` is certainly an awesome feature — though (perhaps sadly) not default behavior.

      > I've been burnt before using ! and forgetting what command I typed previously

      If you want to make sure you do not execute commands you did not intend to, the section linked below is a great start:

      - https://refp.se/articles/your-shell-and-the-lazy-exclamation...

      You may also look into `magic-space` which makes the expansion of event-designators happen inline, I thought about including it but the article felt long even without it.

      Thanks for reading the article, I hope it was a worthwhile read even with alternate workflows elsewhere!

      • hnlmorgan hour ago
        Thanks for the tips. These days I don’t use sh derivatives as my primary shell and the shell I do use has a few features to make command search more ergonomic and safer. But these are useful tips nonetheless
    • CoastalCoder2 hours ago
      Agreed. I especially cringed at the author's example of mixing that with "sudo".
      • pcbluesan hour ago
        That's mixing human memory with root access. Worse than AI :) I have lost more to mistakes than bugs over 30 years.
      • refp2 hours ago
        the "mixing of sudo"-example is using `!!`, which as explained is the immediately previous command, a little confused how that translates to the "execute command somewhere in the history" argument?
        • CoastalCoderan hour ago
          I suppose it depends on the kinds of mistakes to which one is prone.
    • pwdisswordfishq2 hours ago

          bind space:magic-space
  • DrNefario2 hours ago
    I'm much too lazy to memorise what all of these do, I'd rather just use fish wherever I can. Some combination of typing, arrow keys, and alt+arrow keys is always enough for me to find that thing I want to avoid fully retyping.

    P.S. The alt+s shortcut is much quicker than writing sudo !!

  • Joker_vD5 hours ago
    sigh The usability of ! versus Ctrl+R in a shell is pretty much the same as the usability of ed versus vi, or moving files around using cp/mv versus using Midnight Commander or the like: in the first case, you have to accurately remember the past (which for many people is pretty difficult); in the second case, you don't have to, because you always have an immediate view of the state of the system and the preview of the effect you're about to incur.

    And yeah, I've done editing with ed; it definitely beats "cat >file.txt" and copying parts around with head/tail and retyping the corrections manually, sure, and it works in every environment that can take line-oriented input from the user (so, literally everywhere), but that's about as much praise as I can give it.

    • Terr_5 hours ago
      > in the first case, you have to accurately remember the past

      Right, as a matter of (relatively trivial) cybernetics between man and machine, it rests on the weaker parts of the human.

      TBF, it'd make a lot more sense if every command on screen (or given the timescale perhaps teletype paper prinout) was already labeled with the necessary number.

      • petschge4 hours ago
        You can just add something like (\\!) in your PS1 and get just that.

        PS1="(\\!) \[\033[01;32m\]\u@\h\[\033[00m\]:\[\033[01;34m\]\w\[\033[00m\]\$ "

        as a full working example

    • refp2 hours ago
      > you have to accurately remember the past

      From personal experience I rarely reach for event-designators beyond the current viewport of the terminal. Referring to a command beyond that is, as you very much correctly point out, an easy way to get behavior you don't want. However, if you are always referring to things that are near-memory or even still directly visible in your terminal buffer — the gun-to-foot ratio becomes manageable. I use many (many) of these daily without issues, but it does require some additional discipline.

      Also, and this I find important to note, `!!` and `!$` sit outside of the memory argument as they always refer to the last command and last-command's last-argument respectively — as such there shouldn't be any recall related problems (unless you are context switching and come back to a shell in a state you don't remember).

      A common occurrence when my posts acquire attention is that I retroactively realize that some things could have been conveyed better; I read every comment and yours is a blessing in disguise to improve future writing.

      Thanks for reading the article, and thanks for indirectly making me a better writer!

      ---

      EDIT:

      by the way, for what it's worth, the below linked section describes how to effectively explicitly confirm what you would run as a safety measure if unsure:

      https://refp.se/articles/your-shell-and-the-lazy-exclamation...

      • Joker_vDan hour ago
        Frankly,

            !-2 && !!
        
        and its variations (like '!-2 | !!') is pretty much the most use I've gotten out of this feature.
  • csydas4 hours ago
    ! calls are vital for your sanity if you ever do remote support

    trying to write shell commands on a hypervisor console window within a remote session on a jump box is excruciatingly laggy and annoying, and that's assuming your remote session connection to the client is behaving well in the first place

    • crabbone3 hours ago
      I have a script that does virsh send-key of whatever I need to send. In my specific case the motivation was the mismatch between my keyboard layout and the keyboard in the VMs, so I couldn't send M-# or even C-... into the VNC console.

      I'm way too paranoid to ever use "!". I want to see the command I'm sending.

  • grimgrin4 hours ago
    i love the mkdir example, so i’m going to exercise that muscle and see where it goes

    and yeah ^r works, though i often type a few chars and ^p till i get the match. history-search-backward in your inputrc, iirc

    edit: on a computer now :) my `if emacs` block, allowing arrows or ^n/^p to run through history. so for e.g., type "tar" and now as you shift through history with :binding:, it only shows history that began with "tar"

        $if mode=emacs
        "\e[A": history-search-backward
        "\e[B": history-search-forward
        "\C-p": history-search-backward
        "\C-n": history-search-forward
        ...
        $endif
    • zzril4 hours ago
      That one was always worth its own function for me.

      ``` mkcd() { mkdir -p -- "$*" && cd -- "$*" } ```

  • rixed4 hours ago
    If you find this interesting, don't wait for a random blogpost to appear by chance on HN, go read some manage today!
  • b1124 hours ago
    Everyone need be aware, bash uses emac extensions by default. As I refuse to use emacs, I therefore refuse to use these extensions in bash!

    In as most sensible people use vi, don't taint yourself by touching this foul and evil emacs magic. Being known as an emacs user could cost you a job, shorten your career, or even cause rifts with family and friends.

    Instead my friends, if you must use such bash shenanigans, switch it to vi extensions. You'll feel better about yourself, stand taller, and be a better human being as a result.

    Be safe.

    • adityaathalye3 hours ago
      Well, Emacs shenanigans are why I use Bash. Also, I last had a day job five years ago, I don't have anything that looks like a career, and well you're right about some of the family and friends.

      You are a soothsayer!

  • RMPR5 hours ago
    If you really want to be lazy, use a terminal file manager (I prefer lf[0]) it helps avoiding the cd && ls dance. That way, your history only contains commands you actually would want to rerun.

    0: https://github.com/gokcehan/lf

    • LoganDark2 hours ago
      > That way, your history only contains commands you actually would want to rerun.

      just turn on the thing where a leading space doesn't commit to history and you can do this already.

  • charcircuit3 hours ago
    Not knowing what command you are doing before you submit it is poor design. There are alternative ways to access old commands where you can see the actual command you are about to run before you submit it. The physical teletype era is over.
  • ta89033 hours ago
    Very annoying prose.