214 pointsby dhorthy7 hours ago18 comments
  • Vgoose5 hours ago
    Nice! I actually ran across this paper+benchmark recently, too. It's the first I've found that start to aim at some of the non-functional and longitudinal requirements that I think have always been an important part of writing production code.

    It's especially relevant now that models are good enough to solve ~most point-in-time problems.

    Some relevant but disconnected thoughts:

    - deterministic scores are so nice

    - what "maintainable" is is probably some high dimensional space described by these signals; it'd probably require some human labeling to figure out where this space is

    - another signal I've been thinking about and I'm seeing increasingly get brought up is the state space of a system; I'm seeing formal methods pop up a lot recently

    • NitpickLawyeran hour ago
      > another signal I've been thinking about and I'm seeing increasingly get brought up is the state space of a system

      State space of a system AND the way to make it accessible / visible to a model. Many times a model can work magic if it can "see" the state of a system in a way that suits it. That's why sometimes having a cli added to the environment seems like such a big unlock. Because that cli usually takes a complex state and allows visibility into it, and possible manipulation in a structured way.

    • dhorthy5 hours ago
      > - what "maintainable" is is probably some high dimensional space described by these signals; it'd probably require some human labeling to figure out where this space is

      this is a nicely succinct way to put this - a multi-dimensional space where no single metric is really useful

      state space of the system is interesting too. I would guess that for any production software with dependencies like databases/third parties that might be too hard to measure, but if you can silo off parts of your system into bounded state machines, it may be a value metric on some module behind a clean interface.

      I think the kubernetes control loop model is a great instance of this, a handful of scoped components that own a control loop across a well-defined state machine, that can operate / recover in the face of most network partitions or downtime - the promise of CRDTs but rather more a pragmatic approach to it

  • sothatsit5 hours ago
    This matches my experience of Opus 5 being a nice improvement over Opus 4.8, but not being revolutionary like Fable felt.

    I’ve now replaced my use of Opus 4.8 xhigh with Opus 5 medium, and I’m using less tokens and it’s quicker. I can understand people being annoyed by its writing style but for getting work done that really doesn’t bother me. I’ve been really enjoying using it.

    • rubicon335 hours ago
      I think they neutered Fable. When it first came out it was indeed revolutionary. But what we have today, is not what we had before the ban.
      • jbird99an hour ago
        At this point I don't even bother with it. Constantly falls back to Opus anyway, so I may as well save myself some time.
      • swader9994 hours ago
        Noticed that too. I wonder if these things just degrade over time, perhaps with the way it writes memories about my project as it goes
        • Espressosaurus4 hours ago
          I’ve observed the degradation, but I suspect what’s happening is they’re tuning it for lower inference costs. Maybe turning down the amount of thinking, maybe quantizing, maybe something else.

          It seems like there’s a week by week and sometimes day by day change in performance when on a subscription plan using their harnesses.

          • conception4 hours ago
            https://marginlab.ai/trackers/claude-code/ their tracker generally shows that isn’t the case. The only times I’ve seen it drop is something broken and just before fable launched.
            • nerdsniperan hour ago
              I mean they could just be routing known benchmark questions (which all of SWEBench are) to a full-performance variant.
    • fastball5 hours ago
      Medium vs High? Why? From all the charts I've seen the performance jump is pretty large from med -> high (not as noticeable from high -> xhigh).
      • ValentineC3 hours ago
        Medium or low supposedly prevents Opus 5 from overthinking:

        https://xcancel.com/danshipper/status/2080700057892815114

      • sothatsit4 hours ago
        If I need something smarter I use Fable. Medium works well and is quick. Opus 5 medium feels much better to me than Opus 4.8 medium.
        • dhorthy4 hours ago
          yeah someone will have to re-run this bench on various effort levels. unfortunately it is not cheap
      • conception4 hours ago
        https://cognition.com/frontiercode

        Quality vs cost - medium is the sweet (perhaps better too!) spot.

        • dhorthy4 hours ago
          my issue with frontier code is that it uses a model judge for quality whereas slop code bench forces a model to grapple with its own garbage code in order to receive a functionality reward
    • 5 hours ago
      undefined
  • 4by4by42 hours ago
    I'd be curious to see the raw test results.

    I have a suspicion that most models will miss the `database_migration` Checkpoint 2 test that includes a `default_value` because it could be interpreted as either a JSON-literal or a SQL-expression.

    There might be other tests as well that are prone to failure for reasons other than the reasons cited in the paper.

    I think a cool experiment would be to adjust the order of the features implemented (e.g. checkpoint 3 then 2 then 5 then 4) where dependencies allow it. Then one could account for some checkpoints being more difficult than others.

    • dhorthy2 hours ago
      oh i really like the idea of flipping around the order of checkpoints and comparing results. Could be an interesting way to increase/decrease difficulty even

      i will look into how easy it would be to zip up some subset of the results without leaking anything...probably doable

  • piazzan hour ago
    Great writeup. The excessive function thing has always driven me crazy; I guard against this explicitly in Claude.md.

    I have found that models are generally poor at managing refactors / complexity while also implementing new features. But I’ve had some success with a semi-lights-off approach where you decompose it and prompt the model adversarially in a second pass to look for new rough edges and areas of complexity or refactors that might simplify the codebase.

    So I’d be very curious to see this benchmark but with something like a periodic “refactor turn” interleaved in.

    Also eager to see Fable benchmarked; anecdotally that was the only model whose code I felt I could actually trust to not review closely.

  • willsmith7240 minutes ago
    > The big headline is that Opus 5 got a 24% on the small subset of the benchmark that I ran - not much higher than Opus 4.6's 17% strict pass rate in the original paper.

    a 41% improvement is not much higher? come on that's just doomer

  • Johnny_Bonk6 hours ago
    I haven't joined your chats in a while but glad to see you put this together, I truly feel as though opus 5 is not much of an improvement. The only time i ever felt a wow factor was opus 4, 4.6 and fable pre trump admin lobotimizing
    • dhorthy6 hours ago
      yeah this was just a start - the fastest cheapest thing we could try for a brand new model.

      I'm hoping to do some more work with sol/fable in the mix as well as exploring more languages and curating the problem set to include more of the benchmark

      I also kinda felt like opus4.5 was dumber than 4.1 personally, maybe a little biased since 4.5 was 2.5x faster and 2.5x cheaper seems to indicate its a smaller model

    • dan_gee6 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • scrollaway6 hours ago
        How is this useful or insightful?

        You ever go to forums full of entomology specialists and tell them you don’t understand their fancy terms?

        • dan_gee6 hours ago
          My point is that the differences between these models are so minor that obsessively benchmarking them comes across as navel-gazing.
          • joatmon-snoo5 hours ago
            The evidence that proves a model is actually a step function change is these benchmarks.

            If a model isn’t a step function change? Welcome to research.

          • 4 hours ago
            undefined
          • Johnny_Bonk6 hours ago
            like all good science, measure everything
  • killingtime746 hours ago
    Did you not benchmark latest GPT 5.6 or GLM 5.1/Kimi K3 because of cost? I can run them if you share how you ran them
    • dhorthy6 hours ago
      no i'm spinning those up at some point this week. here's the first few prompts I used (claude opus 5 as the research orchestrator), (these were interspersed with lots of tools and assistant messages but it should get you kicked off.

      > fetch this article for slopcodebench and help me run an eval on a subset of problems with opus 5 https://arxiv.org/html/2603.24755v1 > Get all the context, fetch any mentioned repos, and then propose a plan to me.

      > i have an anthropic API key in .... > Let's do the three challenges with Opus 4.8 and Opus 5 and Fable please. I like your minimal set. Let's try it. What do you need from me?

      > Actually I changed my mind. I want to do two of the easy ones you picked and then I want you to pick the one with more checkpoints, maybe one of the harder ones, not the very hardest one but one with a higher number of checkpoints.

      > Actually let's do one easy, one medium, and one hard problem please. If we have a hard problem I'd like to see that.

      > lets rock - i think lets just do opus 4.8 and sonnet 5 and opus 5 since we our ZDR will block fable

  • ajwin5 hours ago
    To what degree is this a harness/system prompt problem? Models maybe should implement new stuff with as little impact on the existing stuff as possible by default? A simple system prompt for it to always check the code after task completion for proper simplifications, abstractions and cleanups before returning to the user? Instructions to retain "story like" readability of the code.
    • igregoryca4 hours ago
      At least for Claude Code, putting "run /simplify at the end" in an "implement the plan" skill helps a little. It still often leaves new code in bizarre places, and/or with bad/alien-sounding names and comments.
      • dhorthy2 hours ago
        Yeah I would hold that models don’t know how to simplify because most rl/benchmarks doesn’t penalize complexity
    • dhorthy5 hours ago
      I agree this is an option, and the next thing on my radar is to try with a more realistic "factory-shaped" harness where you have feedback from linters and other models after each coding episode that refines the architecture.

      For readability specifically, I've found it hard to get the models to do this with prompting. If you've talked to opus/fable for a long time on prose writing you probably felt this too

    • lostdog3 hours ago
      Clearly the first step of slopbench2 should be to have the agent first write its own harness!
    • 3 hours ago
      undefined
  • subarctic2 hours ago
    I still don't have access to Opus 5. I'm on the latest version from Homebrew, I guess the update hasn't made it there yet
    • sethherran hour ago
      Why are you on the version from homebrew?
      • dhorthyan hour ago
        somebody get this man a curl-pipe-bash stat
  • cesarvarela3 hours ago
    Please add Fable; a good benchmark should show that Fable is less prone to just autocomplete and instead pushes back or is at least more tasteful.
    • dhorthy2 hours ago
      Yeah the main reason I skipped fable was because we have a ZDR with anthropic and I didn’t feel like spinning up another account to circumvent that. Next run will have fable and sol
  • akurilin4 hours ago
    Really hoping that all of the attention you're bringing to the longitudinal sloppification of codebases makes it back to the labs and creates some pressure to improve that trait of the models. This new benchmark seems promising.

    At the same time, I imagine it will be hard for them to prioritize this over improving flashy one-shots of impressive zero-to-one feats that demo so well and attract more customers.

    Can we have simonw make "pelican on a bicycle after 1000 requests for iteration" popular?

    • dhorthy4 hours ago
      i laughed at the pelican bit its good

      yes the labs will always prioritize the vibeslop dopamine casino as far as I can tell - making the models useful and addictive for unsophisticated users, sometimes at the expense or at the very least at the ignorance of the needs of power users

  • dcl6 hours ago
    finally the benchmark for me
    • dhorthy6 hours ago
      i hope that is because you hate slop and not because you write it
  • knighthacker6 hours ago
    This is where Opus 5 shines
  • tamimio4 hours ago
    So many benchmarks more the models themselves.. just make one unified standard to benchmark all or stop calling it “benchmarking” as this word lost its meaning.
  • cute_boi6 hours ago
    Opus 5 is an overconfident stupid model. It tries to generate too much slop, tries to act like everything will fall. I have reversed back to fable and codex sol.
    • dhorthy6 hours ago
      yes sol is still my daily driver for most coding tasks

      I did find opus 5 quite handy for general knowledge work and visual design, without the cost of fable (e.g. the graphics in this post are made by opus 5)

      but its not noticeably better than opus 4.8 in those regards, and I would not miss it if forced to go back to 4.8

      • roncesvalles5 hours ago
        I almost prefer Opus 4.8. Opus 5.0 has the overly scholastic tone of Fable but without the intelligence.
    • patwolf4 hours ago
      We've been running automated code reviews on claude with a bunch of skills/subagents with different specialties. Any review feedback is then fed back into claude to fix. Since switching to Opus 5 I've noticed the reviews are overly pedantic, and that leads to feedback loops where each fix generates more feedback, which requires more fixes, i.e. slop. I had, for example, a simple SQL migration script with a single CREATE TABLE. After a few rounds of review, it ballooned into a complicated 200 line script.

      I'm not ready to blame Opus 5 for being stupid. Perhaps we have a prompt buried somewhere that's essentially asking it to be pedantic, and it's just obeying the prompt.

      • latentsea2 hours ago
        > I'm not ready to blame Opus 5 for being stupid. Perhaps we have a prompt buried somewhere that's essentially asking it to be pedantic, and it's just obeying the prompt.

        This is a known failure mode. Sadly, working on a software engineering team doing agentic engineering now means we need to build and maintain suites of evals that measure these things, so that we can measure the effects of changes to harness components including how they perform under model upgrades.

        But... for a traditional software engineering team that has no experience in this... How do we even do it?

  • joka88xjan hour ago
    [flagged]
  • sqemo2 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • delbertty3 hours ago
    Mostly a harness problem in my experience. Slop accumulates when the agent can touch anything, so constraining it to one seam and having it add alongside rather than edit in place does more than model choice.