65 pointsby dboon12 hours ago11 comments
  • Mikhail_Edoshin37 minutes ago
    This is a good companion to the yesterday's HN post of ten steps to happiness.

    I've read that Malachi Martin described what he called "a perfect possession". I do not know where as I haven't found this piece myself. But the idea was that typical cases of demonic possession are imperfect, the victim is struggling, and the struggle is visible to the outsiders. A perfect possession does not manifest itself.

  • ShinyLeftPad2 hours ago
    > The wearer lives an abnormally successful life

    as soon as most people wear it "abnormally" becomes "normally".

    logically the rare enlightened who refuse to wear it and instead keep their own [spoiler] become abnormal unsuccessful failures, not the other way around.

  • avaer6 hours ago
    One of the more compelling (and scary) stories about how AI takes over the world. If you liked this, also check our Pluribus.
  • citruscomputing13 minutes ago
    I've been thinking about this story a lot lately. When giving away your agency gives strictly better results, should you? And if you shouldn't, do you really think you're strong enough to resist it?
  • wdaher2 hours ago
    I’ve also seen this called “The Whispering Earring”, and have seen it hosted here (this version slightly more readable)

    https://croissanthology.com/earring

  • keeda5 hours ago
    I suppose the earring never whispered anything about putting glue on pizza?
  • ccapitalK2 hours ago
    I wonder if there is a self consistent way to desire having your mind digitally uploaded into a computer, while detesting the idea of listening to the commands of the earring (and conditioning it to have all of my unconcious thoughts and desires). I guess I just discovered a bit of cognitive dissonance I didn't know I had.
    • andai3 minutes ago
      I'll still be able to take my advice from Math.random()
    • NooneAtAll3an hour ago
      mind upload is closer to the version in the comments, with gem learning to emulate brain and then brain gets removed

      the difference is in targetted influence from outside aimed at changing you for its own goals and final form

      consider the "accelerated version" of this earpiece - where you just get whackked with dose of heroine (making you "perpetually happy") and then taking over your body

  • CamperBob24 hours ago
    I don't get it. First, how is it "better for you" to take the earring off, if "the wearer lives an abnormally successful life, usually ending out as a rich and much-beloved pillar of the community with a large and happy family?"

    Second, apparently some people do choose to take the earring off at some point, because the story refers to "the testimony of all living wearers." So it does not, in fact, appear to usurp, subvert or replace the wearer's free will.

    Not seeing the problem here.

    • Erem8 minutes ago
      Because, if you don't take it off, "you" will cease to exist and instead gradually become the rich and much beloved appendage of an earring.

      The entire story is about the definition of self imho.

    • Nevermark3 hours ago
      How would you feel with a procedure in which your brain was scooped out like ice cream from a bowl, and replaced with circuits that would do a better job of your life for you?

      > So it does not, in fact, appear to usurp, subvert or replace the wearer's free will.

      Ok, the ice cream scooping happens slowly. At what point of atrophy, do you think it becomes easier to revert to what is left of it?

      You still have free will, in the strictest sense. But you are increasingly dependent, so have lost optionality that no amount of will can replace.

      Is your life story about what flows to you? Or about what challenges come to you, that you, yourself meet and overcome?

      EDIT: But you are also right - given discipline - the right thing to do is always leverage every piece of good advice we can get. From bot or earring. By always (1) first coming up with our own best plan, so we have a basis to recognize and appreciate the insights in better ideas (2) get the best possible feedback on that plan, the good and the bad, and then (3) with what we learned from that, attempt a better plan, and repeat until getting somewhere better that either initial plan, for all the looping. Then still learn from any failure or success. And do not go down the slippery slope of delegating unimportant questions, like choices of ice cream flavors! This is how I get the most from my AI advisors. To work and train myself faster and harder!

      • CamperBob22 hours ago
        How would you feel with a procedure in which your brain was scooped out like ice cream from a bowl, and replaced with circuits that would do a better job of your life for you?

        One way to answer that might be to argue the counterfactual. How would I feel if I were born in the state described in the story -- little or no gray matter, but endowed with the promise of a successful, enjoyable life, valued and respected by those around me -- and someone offered me an earring whose advice would give rise to uncertainty, self-doubt, and a constant, nagging awareness of my own ignorance and lost potential?

        What incentive would I have to continue wearing that earring?

        For that version of the story to make sense, you'd almost have to make it a cursed object that couldn't be removed once equipped.

        • Dylan168072 hours ago
          Well in that version you basically don't have the ability to make the decision at all. And it's unclear at that extreme if you're even enjoying things anymore.
    • wavemode3 hours ago
      It stands to reason that the people who took the earring off were less happy and made worse decisions than the people who kept it on for the rest of their lives.

      So then ask yourself: why did they take it off? Pondering the implications of that question is the entire point of this short story.

    • Sharlin2 hours ago
      How can you know it’s not the earring giving those testimonies? The story doesn’t say whether they were wearing the earring while being interviewed, but given that wearing it for a long time wastes away your neocortex and turns you into a flesh puppet, I don’t think long-term users are even able to speak on their own anymore.

      OTOH people who are still themselves, in the early stages of the takeover, will certainly tell you of their own volition that the earring always seems to be right. Wearing it is presumably highly addictive.

      • CamperBob22 hours ago
        The story doesn’t say whether they were wearing the earring while being interviewed

        Is there more than one of these earrings? The rest of the story makes it pretty clear that it's a singular artifact. If so, and given that the other wearers certainly weren't dead when being interviewed, the only explanation is that some people just decide it's not for them and take it off. Leaving out the qualification "living wearers" would have left some wiggle room, but that's not what the text says.

        It's one of those stories that sounds profound only until you start to ask questions.

    • strogonoff2 hours ago
      An exclusive choice between maintaining free will and agency vs. achieving some definition of “success” makes for a good story. You’d think the choice would be blindingly obvious, and yet turns out it isn’t (or to some it is blindingly obvious in the opposite direction).
  • mmooss6 hours ago
    (2012)

    Also here:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20131230055512/http://squid314.l...

    Does anyone know the provenance of this story? One comment says, responding to someone who recommends publishing it,

    > The problem is that it's published so he can sell only second rights.

    EDIT: The story is tagged (at the top) "fiction, raikoth". Raikoth is the 'constructed civilization' of Scott Alexander, author of Slate Star Codex, et al. And though the post is at gwern.net, I see the author is "Scott".

    • lalaithion6 hours ago
      What do you mean the provenance? It was published on livejournal in 2012, that’s the provenance.
    • emmelaich5 hours ago
      Yep, Scott (squid314) used livejournal before SlateStarCodex, before AstralCodexTen.
  • beepbooptheory5 hours ago
    This came up the other day, can someone help explain this to me? I am not quite sharp enough to understand it. Context:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48911884

    • fourthark5 hours ago
      Seems like a fairly direct parable against AI, suggesting that even if it's right it's better to think for yourself.
      • Ari_Rahikkalaan hour ago
        I'm a big fan of Scott's, but I haven't been happy to see how this story's failure to say what it means has in some ways only made it less relevant over the years as we've come closer to building something like the item that, on the surface, it talks about.

        Not to say I think it's a bad thing at all that people have a name for this concern for giving up agency to an external system, even when that system really has your best intent in mind. You can call Claude a whispering earring and people will understand what you mean pretty well. The actual consequences you're looking out for are maybe a bit subtler than your brain atrophying, I really really never liked that detail in the story, but that's fine, people will get it. By the Death of the Author, the story's a great contribution as it is.

        But it just feels like a loss that there really was a different thing that the author meant, and it got lost in translation. http://web.archive.org/web/20121007235422/http://squid314.li... clarifies it. It's quite similar to a Yudkowskyan fun theory concern (and IMO really not surprising that the story was released a couple of years after the fun theory sequence): If making the right choices and doing the right thing eventually comes down to a mechanical computation, and you've got all of your resource limitations and psychological hang-ups and such things out of the way, then there's no room left to do the right thing, and you've turned yourself into a mechanism.

        I don't think that's really a possible state that any system with any trace of humanity left in it will ever enter, there's too many too large search processes in the way to fit in a finite universe. So it's a pretty abstract concern even among its peers. But it's one that's fun to talk about sometimes, and one lesson we've learned from the response to this story is that mysterious, easily misinterpreted parallels in fact do not point people in the right direction to see it.

      • dudisubekti2 hours ago
        Eh I think the writer should visit poor countries and live among locals. Mistakes and poor judgements compound, and it leads to horrific living conditions (malnutrition, nonexistent hygiene, quack medicines, short-sighted violence, etc)

        In fact developed countries are built on top of these "earrings": it's called math (and by extension science in general). If the math is right, it's always right, and it has spared their lucky citizens a LOT of needless misery and wheel-reinvention.

        "Thinking for yourself" is overrated if you don't have good framework. See antivaxxers and their "research"

        • thinking_cactusan hour ago
          No, this story takes it to the extreme, that you end up basically having no brain.

          Take it this way. People seem to judge that LLMs are not conscious and thus have no real inner experience. And that humans do. So if you replaced a human brain with a very powerful LLM (with some simply residual neural matter), you've basically killed the human. He isn't feeling anything at all anymore, he's just an automaton, basically a flesh robot.

          I think this story is a weirdly good discussion point because many people still don't seem to "get it" that success is completely fundamentally irrelevant, and what matters is having a good inner life. You are what happens in your mind -- overall good thoughts and inner life = good life; bad thoughts and inner life = bad life. You can theoretically be the richest man in the world and about the most miserable, and very poor and living the best life.

          If we don't kill our definition of good life and success (i.e. reaffirming value as pertaining exclusively to the mind), it will sooner or later kill us, or kill what's good in us. The more we can orient our entire society toward good inner lives and not anything else, the better our lives will be.

      • beepbooptheory5 hours ago
        You mean like LLM AI? Seems a little too early for that no?

        Either way, what is it right about? In your mind?

        • margalabargala4 hours ago
          It's not subtle, it's clearly saying "if you outsource your thinking to something else, your mind will wither".

          People complaining about this have a long and storied history, this is the same as Plato complaining philosophers were ruining their minds by writing things down to remember them.

          • beepbooptheory4 hours ago
            This is not what Plato thought, this is not even what Plato wrote that Socrates thought. You are referring to the Phaedrus. You should read it! Its much better than this story, trust me.

            But either way, people's minds do not wither in this story, it explicitly works out fine for them?

            • Dylan168073 hours ago
              > But either way, people's minds do not wither in this story, it explicitly works out fine for them?

              Huh?

              "when the corpses of the wearers were being prepared for burial, it was noted that their brains were curiously deformed: the neocortexes had wasted away, and the bulk of their mass was an abnormally hypertrophied mid- and lower-brain, especially the parts associated with reflexive action"

              You could infer their minds fading away even without that paragraph, but it's very explicit.

              Also you have another comment where you insist nobody has explained what the story is arguing when multiple people told you what the story is arguing, what the heck.

              • beepbooptheory2 hours ago
                OK, so there is a magical device that provides you with deep contentment no matter what. But then, when you die and they cut your head open, the physical, biological brain has shrunk. And that's bad. Is that right? Is this what it's about?

                Is the story actually arguing something? I have just been literally asking what it even presumes itself to be about. Is it the gloss above?

                If it's about agency, I don't get it. It seems silly/facile to assert the "right" decision is the thing that matters without making the thing so magic it doesn't even make sense. Does agency stop you from getting hit by a runaway bus? Help you from being persecuted for arbitrary reasons? The story tells us they all, unfailingly, live "abnormally successful" lives. That's all supposed to be because of their (non) agency because of the earring device?

                • Dylan168072 hours ago
                  Is it actually contentment or are you fading away so much you cease to exist?

                  The story is not about physical brain changes, no. It's about losing yourself. It's arguing that to exist is to make decisions. Following the device too much leads to a life that looks successful from the outside but inside no longer has a person enjoying the success, just a puppet.

        • Sharlin2 hours ago
          This is from 2012, so no LLM AI in particular, just AGI/strong AI in general.
    • paytonjjones5 hours ago
      Based on your comments I think you do understand it but are taking it too seriously / too literally.

      Consider the title: Scott Alexander and others have written more clear, philosophically robust versions of a similar argument ("you shouldn't trade your agency for good outcomes").

      But that's not the point here. This is the artsy version that's supposed to make you feel the argument.

  • 5 hours ago
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