30 pointsby hhs4 hours ago16 comments
  • greazya minute ago
    Australia is limiting / banning non competes for certain workers

    https://www.mlc.org.au/whats-changing-with-non-compete-claus...

  • helterskelter2 hours ago
    Story time for NC's. I had a doctor that lived near me working at a medical clinic that got bought up by PE. He signed the new contract with them and kept working for a while, but decided he needed to move for one reason or another. After he quits, PE informs him of the NC in the new contract he signed, and that he wouldn't be able to practice medicine for N years (I think it was something like 5). He ended up hanging himself, and in response, the clinic's staff quit en masse and basically dared the PE company to try and enforce the clause. PE backed down because suing all the doctors individually would have cost too much and it would have been awful PR for the practice. They ended up selling the clinic before the year was out.
    • zulux2 hours ago
      FYI - there are already a few states that don't allow companies to enforce such draconian noncompetes.

      Moving to California is better than killing yourself most of the time.

      • teaearlgraycoldan hour ago
        Clearly something else was going on. No mentally healthy person would kill themself because of this.
        • em-bee21 minutes ago
          well yes, they lost their livelyhood, and they may loose their home, their family and who knows what else.
        • asiban hour ago
          You are clearly incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of someone who is being told they cannot pursue their vocation for half a decade.
          • teaearlgraycold24 minutes ago
            Cannot pursue your vocation in certain jurisdictions. And there are plenty of adjacent fields I suspect wouldn't be covered by the NC - like education.
            • em-bee9 minutes ago
              sure there are always options. but they may not be visible or accessible. maybe they can not or don't want to move because of family. maybe there are no alternative jobs in the area, maybe they hate teaching. seriously, the only sane response to non-competes is to make them illegal. everything else is missing the point.
    • jmyeet13 minutes ago
      Private equity is cancer. It honestly should be illegal, particularly to buy a company with a loan and then strip-mine the assets to pay back that loan.

      Private equity looks for "pricing power". This just means "inelastic demand". So housing, vets, healthcare, food and utilities are great targets because you can't opt out of basic needs. Healthcare (and vets) have the added layer that PE tends to buy all the practices in an area at the same time so there's no competition. And, like you say, they sign all the medical providers with these big contracts with onerous non-competes

      Those non-competes, while onerous, tend to be regional. The region can be large however but if you moved (which, admittedly, most people don't want to do) then you could practice medicine elsewhere.

      Here are two big ways PE is trying to corner these markets with mixed success:

      1. Some states (eg Oregon) have laws that forbid companies from "practicing medicine" so when Apollo came and tried to buy their way into emergency care (so the hospitals fired the physician-owned emergency medicine group that had been running it for decades), they try this convoluted corporate structure where there's a company that ostensibly owns the new healthcare operation and it has some doctor placed as the chief but really it's a Trojan horse for the PE firm. So far, judges in Oregon have rejected this end-run around the law; and

      2. Envision Healthcare was a massive PE failure because of a law change. Here's how it worked. Whatever insurance you have will have in-network and out-of-network providers. In a hospital environment you generally have little control over the various providers who see you. This has led to some surprises where, say, the anesthesiologist for your surgery might be out-of-network while your surgeion was in-network. The surgeon is getting an in-network fee of $8000 but the out-of-network anesthesioligist is charging $100,000. Unscrupulous doctors would evngage in revenuemaxxing by intentionally bringing in an out-of-network provider then splitting the much higher fee rather than using the residents in the hospital, which were essentially "free".

      That was Envision's entire business model: surprise out-of-network billing. Then in 2021, the No Surprises Act was passed that basically outlawed this practice. It forced hospitals to only receive in-network rates for things like this. And the entire $6.5B purchase of Envision imploded.

      This is partially why I get so angry when people try and defend PE as a concept. It's entirely parasitic. It's not even theoretically making a business more efficient. It's just hiking prices in a way where people have no choice. That's it.

      The interesting part is that the PE firm will try and exit by IPOing the "restructured" company, which will only last a few years before the complicated debt structure implodes, a bit like subprime loans. A textbook structure is to "sell" all the real estate to a holding company and that's not listed and then you have complciated leaseback contracts that only keep going up in rent.

      One of favorite "fun" facts about healthcare is when passing the Affordable Care Act, somebody snuck in a provision that made physician-owned hospitals illegal. Who? Nobody really knows as best as I can tell. It just made it into the final bill. Someobody argued doctors would have an unfair advantage or something. Who? Insurance companies.

      Honestly, this entire system needs to be burned to the ground, Boudicca style.

  • rrrrrrrrrrrryan2 hours ago
    There's a strong argument to be made that the banning of non-competes is the main reason California is the software capital of the world.
  • RayVR2 hours ago
    Non-competes in finance almost always come with compensation during the defined period.

    The idea that a company can restrict at-will employee’s post-separation employment is absurd if they aren’t compensating the individual.

    In many US states and countries outside the US, the enforcement of non-competes is very very hard. The problem is that they create a RISK of enforcement.

    • J-Kuhnan hour ago
      By some logic:

      * If they want to tell someone personally what to do or not to do, is some form of employment.

      * If it is not paid, it can be considered slavery.

      * It is usually possible to quit jobs.

    • jmyeet10 minutes ago
      I'm a firm believer in this as well. You want to enforce a noncompete? Great. You have to pay me as much as what I was earning (plus benefits), possibly more, for as long as you want to enforce it. That amount should probably go up 50%+ per year too.
    • rrrrrrrrrrrryanan hour ago
      Executive level non-competes are probably the most damaging for the overall economy though.

      If there's a market-dominating company, and execs are allowed to leave said company, start a competitor, get some investor dollars behind them, then start poaching employees from the old company, the market can have a really viable competitor quite quickly.

      Without that ability, little monopolies spring up throughout the economy and use their size to crush upstarts, under-compensate their employees, overcharge their customers, and squeeze their suppliers.

      Banning non-competes is an absolute requirement for free-market capitalism to function properly.

      • jambalaya8an hour ago
        Salient arguments, although I am personally of the belief that limited non-competes make some sense, at least in the US, at least in some fields.

        One of the other respondents mentioned one of the main issues with a DIY attitude towards modifying NCDs is the advent of digital signing of NCDs now, and I concur that NC documents really should be paper (though I can see an argument for adding a blockchain-like element/step with a digitized document that would capture the crossed-out sections). I used to deal with sections of NC forms I did not like this way myself.

        A lot of people don't like non-competes but I think people give them a bad reputation sometimes. Not when they are being abused (like the case of the doctor and PE mentioned elsewhere, and as I said in some cases NCs make little sense to me; if it is isn't research-related, and/or doesn't involve some sort of patent or novel procedure or tech or research, it clearly makes less sense), but certainly when they serve to prevent people from running off and starting a new company and competing with the company they just left (e.g., how the AI field especially is getting very glutty and 'competitive' now; it resembles less of a free-market and more like Battle Royale in ways).

        Pretty sure non-competes prevent economic collapses, layoffs and bankruptcies for many companies.

        The danger is abuse of them, not their existence. I don't think banning them outright is good. Especially in Fintech, which is a field rife with moral and ethical quandaries.

        I do want to point out that it irks me when people make a big deal complaining about a non-compete afterwards, when they know they signed a non-compete prior to a meeting or job or role somewhere. Part of the point of non-competes is that generally the people that want you to sign them know there is a reason you would want to talk about something or use it elsewhere.

        Abuse should be prevented and preventable by both sides of the non-compete and NDA processes though.

        Should someone be prevented from working with models after working with them at another company? Maybe. If you sign and say yes and you are paid (even if it is not after you leave; you were given notice, though clearly you may not like it; the ability to renegotiate should exist before leaving), then, like it or not, you signed it. But a better approach is just more specific NC clauses (specific sorts of models or specific fields being ruled out, not the whole shebang).

        But as I said, I see good reasons for them existing.

  • jmward01an hour ago
    These are often not disclosed until you start. Day 1 'paperwork' that drastically changes the agreed upon terms of employment well after you have left a previous position. In some cases they are even forced on you after having worked somewhere for a while and future employment is predicated on them. They are evil. I almost quit my job over this, but of course how can you afford to not work while searching? And searching while out of work is far harder than while still working. We need penalties on companies that do this, not just a ban. 'Sign this or you are fired' documents after you are hired should have repercussions.
  • jmcgough2 hours ago
    Thankful that California banned them, others should follow suit.
  • senderistaan hour ago
    Sadly Amazon has been known to enforce its 18-month NC in WA state (not sure if they’ve ever prevailed in court). They will absolutely not negotiate on this.
    • Terr_29 minutes ago
      > Sadly Amazon has been known to enforce its 18-month NC in WA state

      I'm darkly-amused by how this really makes Amazon sound like a quasi-governmental entity.

      AFAICT a lawsuit (Burns v. Amazon) on that is ongoing.

  • Hnrobert422 hours ago
    In all cases where I was presented with an unreasonable non-compete, I either negotiated it away or scratched it out before signing. I know not everyone has that luxury, but if your BATNA is signing, it's worth a shot.
    • j-bos2 hours ago
      Easier to do when there's paper to scratch.
      • teerayan hour ago
        I wonder if anyone has tried presenting an “Artist Rider” to similar effect.
      • anon2912 hours ago
        If they've not offered you anything, the non compete is certainly not valid.
        • parpfish2 hours ago
          I think the implication is that it’s easier to modify paper than a Docusign form where the only option is “click here to sign”
        • Grimblewald2 hours ago
          no, as in physical contracts you _can_ scratch something out on are becoming rare. Usally some fuckass digital signing service or another, tgat barely works on chrome let alone firefox.
  • radicaldreamer2 hours ago
    Not enforceable in California
  • Alien1Being2 hours ago
    With the recent well publicised cases of developers stealing proprietary information, this is going to become more common.
  • donboxan hour ago
    Also not enforceable in Ontario Canada since 2021.
  • parpfish2 hours ago
    I’d be fine signing a non compete if they ever offered anything in return. If they want me to stay out of the market for a period of time, they better pay garden leave or SOME sort of consideration
  • sys_647382 hours ago
    Not worth even printing out where I am. They are worthless.
  • anon2912 hours ago
    Just ignore them completely unless you're an executive.
  • yieldcrvan hour ago
    I don't think I can live outside of California at this point

    I don’t even negotiate these clauses I just have so much assurance the state is going to throw out the case that I just let the client shoot themselves in the foot, and silently get invested in seeing which other ways they’ll mess up

    • eikenberryan hour ago
      Washington State also passed a non-compete ban that will take effect July 2027.
  • metoobruh2 hours ago
    When it comes to enslavement to giant corporations or government, all I can say is:

    "The only winning move is not to play."

    • p1esk2 hours ago
      It’s nice to be rich I guess
      • eikenberryan hour ago
        Or be willing to move.
      • bigyabai2 hours ago
        It's even nicer having freedom.
        • cortesoftan hour ago
          Freedom is pretty useless without food
        • j-bos2 hours ago
          Often bought with riches.
          • bigyabai2 hours ago
            More often with principles.
            • Grimblewald2 hours ago
              i think you underestimate the starting capital required to be able to stand with principles in the modern world. I'm lucky to be in such a position, but I'm also aware few are.
              • Guestmodinfoan hour ago
                You don't need money to live a principled life. Change your life lens. Seek the truth, change the company. There are several places that don't ask you to compromise your morals or principles. Be in touch with principled people, learn from them. I never care about money and so I never have it but I have never been found wanting when I need it. God will make it happen. No worries.
                • fhfnfhfbjffjan hour ago
                  You’re not enlightened. You’re ignorant.
    • thin_carapace2 hours ago
      i rarely use ai, however i must constantly sift through ai blog posts like this one to find actual communication. should i leave the internet to win the game against ai? well i did the next best thing and got a nokia brick phone, yet facebook still knows how to recommend those i meet in real life!! i tried not playing but im still in the game. does that mean the only way i can win is to kill myself?
      • georgemcbayan hour ago
        > yet facebook still knows how to recommend those i meet in real life!!

        Meta is an awful company but they don't have Enemy of the State level surveillance.

        If you met someone in real life and then Facebook recommended them to you the leak here was almost certainly a human one, eg. the person you met googled you and clicked your Facebook profile when it showed up (while they themselves were logged into Facebook) and that's how Facebook made the connection.

        So don't kill yourself. Life is very short anyway, enjoy the absurdity of it while you can.

        • thin_carapacean hour ago
          i was verbally introduced to somebody (that i have 1 mutual friend with) for a grand total of 30 seconds, facebook knew about it an hour later. nobody involved used their phones much during that hour. based on this occurence, facebook's intrusiveness is clearly deep enough. i appreciate the advice not to commit suicide - another responder was correct that i would be digitally resurrected as a pure profit vehicle anyway
      • Alien1Being2 hours ago
        That strategy would not be guaranteed to work.

        An AI simulation of you would post on HN.

        Welcome to the future.

        As always 99% of it is poor quality slop...

      • em-bee2 hours ago
        why are you on facebook?
        • MajorTakeawayan hour ago
          Rather than asking him the question of why in a simple rudimentary form, give the guy motivation to quit facebook instead. Facebook employs guilt tactics about people they know to get them to stay, and if they quit, they're likely to go back because of in person connections. By sounding condescending, the person you're replying to is likely to justify staying rather than quitting.
          • thin_carapacean hour ago
            i think your advice would apply in a standard human situation where optimal communication requires decoration, in this scenario i reciprocated the communication format which indicates acceptance
        • thin_carapacean hour ago
          i have an account from when i was a teenager that i sometimes use to talk to family. why do you ask? based on my anecdote we are all tracked by facebook, whether or not we are on facebook.
          • cortesoftan hour ago
            It was confusing hearing that Facebook was recommending people to you when you made it sound like you were choosing to opt out of those things.

            I am not sure how your anecdote would show you are all tracked by Facebook even if you aren't on facebook; you only received recommendations for people to friend on facebook because you are on facebook. I am not on facebook, so i have never had facebook recommend anyone to me.

            • thin_carapacean hour ago
              my phone cant run facebook. by choosing this phone i am opting not to have facebook track me on a constant basis. however, based on whatever signals are available to everyone elses phones, facebook still tracks me. and facebook is doing the same to everybody including you - not sure if youre aware of the concept of shadow profiles?
          • em-beean hour ago
            well you were asking how to get out of the game. leaving facebook is one of the necessary steps. it may not be enough, and some things from you may still be tracked by meta, but less is better. it's as simple as that. i do have sympathy with the fact that sometimes you just can't avoid it though. if you have family members that absolutely refuse to talk to you in any other way for example. so i ask to reflect if you really need it, or if you can find other ways to stay in touch with your family. (but the key point is the reflection, i am not expecting you to find a solution right away. the point is: always be aware why you are making that tradeoff. i would be on facebook too if i had people there that are important to me and that i could not reach any other way. i do know some people that are on facebook that i would like to be in contact with, so i can sympathize.)