147 pointsby stock_toaster2 hours ago22 comments
  • joshstrange2 hours ago
    Some pretty damning stuff:

    > OpenAI also instructs new hires on how to avoid scrutiny when they leave Apple. For example, Mr. Tan warns them not to tell Apple that they have taken jobs at OpenAI, so they can stay at Apple as long as they can.

    > Apple says it discovered a pattern of OpenAI recruits emailing themselves confidential information when leaving Apple, including Tan.

    > OpenAI apparently used confidential Apple hardware information when approaching Apple suppliers, and tricked one company into using a "specific trade secret metal-finishing technique" for an OpenAI device by claiming it had Apple's permission to do so.

    > Liu allegedly kept an Apple-issued laptop after departing the company and exploited a vulnerability to download dozens of confidential Apple documents while he was working at OpenAI.

    Non-competes and the like are gross but what's described here isn't just "bring your expertise to OpenAI" it's "here is how to steal secrets on your way out" which is even grosser.

    • ErneX2 hours ago
      This isn’t the first time something like this happens and I always wonder how are these seemingly smart people earning good money so dumb.
      • atlasunshrugged2 hours ago
        Right? Just straight up documentation with no shame: From an Axios article on this

        > Liu celebrated the exploit, according to the filing. "LOL, I found out I can access the [network storage], so funny," he said in a message to a former colleague who was still employed by Apple.

        https://www.axios.com/2026/07/10/apple-sues-openai-trade-sec...

      • ofjcihen12 minutes ago
        I’ve been present when the world comes crashing down around people who thought they were too smart to get caught.

        The surprise in their eyes is always very genuine.

      • truncate15 minutes ago
        Overconfidence. These people think they are much smarter than others to be caught.
      • generj31 minutes ago
        It’s even more ridiculous when choosing to do it Apple. It’s hard to think of a company with more legal resources and which is more protective of its hardware IP.
        • kridsdale110 minutes ago
          And vindictiveness.

          Steve declared thermonuclear war on Google because Android re-skinned to use BUTTONS.

          • formerly_provena minute ago
            > Steve declared thermonuclear war on Google because Android re-skinned to use BUTTONS.

            Was there ever a point in time where Google was not the default search engine on iOS?

      • calebioan hour ago
        Google/Waymo + Uber/Otto comes to mind here with Anthony Levandowski.
        • xnx19 minutes ago
          Google and Uber started as courtroom enemies, but probably had to commiserate some on Anthony Levandowski probably being the worst hire they both made.
          • kridsdale19 minutes ago
            When all that went down, I was at Facebook. And some recruiter posted the news that Anthony was no longer at Uber, with a message like “this is a great opportunity to secure a top tier hire!”

            I replied (on Workplace) “Absolutely the fuck NOT.”

      • stavros10 minutes ago
        Because companies get an advantage by having their people do this. You only hear about the times they get caught, but apparently they get caught so rarely that it's worth it.
      • bigyabai2 hours ago
        "Picasso had a saying -- 'good artists copy; great artists steal' -- and we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas."

        - Steve Jobs

        • yugioh3an hour ago
          Great artists steal ideas, not a painting off a gallery wall.
          • tarpitta minute ago
            Why not both? Three cheers for escape artists!
          • zeusk16 minutes ago
            Well their whole model is a stolen art collection :)
          • jay_kyburz28 minutes ago
            a "metal-finishing technique" _is_ an idea.

            joke

            • mikeocool2 minutes ago
              Kinda seems like OpenAI didn’t actually have that idea or the ability to execute it, if they had to go to apple’s supplier and lie to them to get them do it.
            • al_borland9 minutes ago
              Having a certain type of finish on the metal is an idea. Tricking someone into using Apple’s exact trade-secret finishing technique is copying. Making a new, even better technique, that’s so good the general public forgets about Apple and thinks you’re the new benchmark… that’s the kind of stealing that quote is talking about.
            • brandon27221 minutes ago
              When you are bulk copying data off your former employer's network share, that is a lot more than "stealing ideas".
            • simondotau9 minutes ago
              The concept of applying some kind of texture to metal is an idea. A research-heavy, highly specific, finely tuned, multiple step, trade secret, brand signature metal finishing technique is a painting.
  • Robdel126 minutes ago
    OpenAI is about to get ROCKED on this. From this report, this looks open and shut. Apple has basically infinite money and incredible lawyers. Not sure what OpenAI can counter with unless they have clear, hard evidence this hasn’t been happening.
  • browskia few seconds ago
    Altman showing how desperate he is to get into hardware. He knows local models that supplement models in chip are the end of OIA
  • willtemperleya few seconds ago
    This is a really bad look for a company that has vast quantities of our IP stored on its servers.
  • xnx26 minutes ago
    A company that behaves like this in one area, cannot be trusted in any area. Any enterprise that endorses/allows OpenAI products to be used is taking a big risk.
    • MeetingsBrowser17 minutes ago
      I’m not one to defend huge companies, but OpenAI is a huge company.

      It’s possible this kind of behavior is endorsed throughout, or it’s possible it’s limited to this specific group.

      We know nothing beyond what Apple has alleged.

      • mixdup11 minutes ago
        You think the group tasked with developing whatever hardware device they're trying to build is isolated away from senior leadership and is running rogue?
      • felixgallo13 minutes ago
        Do you know who the CEO is?
        • techpressiona minute ago
          Same thought I had, I realized I was zero percent surprised reading the claims made, it feels like a perfect representation of the personality Sam Altman shows the world.
      • BoorishBears12 minutes ago
        Are you joking or are you confusing huge valuations with huge headcount?
    • tangenter23 minutes ago
      Meh. Consider that you had no choice and no say that your data out there, both present and historic as mined, aggregated and analyzed by data collectors, was used as a training set for the LLMs. I think you’re a tad too late with your warning. They’re already thieves and they know it. And they know you can’t and won’t do anything about it.
      • xnx18 minutes ago
        Public/crawlable data is very different from private/internal documents and code that employees might prompt with.
    • benoau7 minutes ago
      You can trust Apple. I mean they openly lied to a judge last year under oath, but you can trust them.
      • willtemperley3 minutes ago
        Can you provide a source? Otherwise your comment is useless.
    • amelius14 minutes ago
      > A company that behaves like this in one area, cannot be trusted in any area.

      A company locking down their phone platform cannot be trusted with their laptop OS.

  • generj34 minutes ago
    Apple kindly wanted to make OpenAI add in some legal liabilities to their IPO filling.

    Discovery is going to be great fun (for Apple).

  • orliesaurus19 minutes ago
    Mr Tan is suddenly going to be in a LOT of trouble
  • andy_ppp13 minutes ago
    Can't wait for the inevitable bailout and US tax dollars to pay for this!
  • fraysan hour ago
    It's ok because this information was just being used to train their models.
  • LoganDark18 minutes ago
    Weirdly, this seems like they're trying to train a model to work like Apple? They seem really interested in processes and how stuff is done, rather than only the finished artifacts.
    • thewebguyd9 minutes ago
      Given that allegedly hardware information was involved I’d lean more toward this is for developing either custom silicon based on Apple’s designs or OpenAI wants to make consumer hardware. Aren’t they making something with Jony Ive too?
    • al_borland4 minutes ago
      A lot of people have tried to copy Apple’s finished product and they never get it right, because they don’t have the process behind it. How something looks is only a small part of it.
    • phainopepla210 minutes ago
      That doesn't seem that weird to me. Good processes lead to good artifacts.
      • LoganDark8 minutes ago
        Apple just seems like a weird target for that kind of stuff, is all.
  • tiahura2 hours ago
    Copy of the Complaint.

    https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.47...

    9. In the months before he left Apple, Mr. Tan met with OpenAI or its collaborators and discussed meetings with a key Apple supplier. He began emailing himself information about Apple’s suppliers and internal summaries of the consumer electronics industry. And today, when interviewing Apple employees for jobs at OpenAI, Mr. Tan uses Apple’s confidential information to gain access to even more insider knowledge. He has used an Apple internal project codename to ask, “What’s the plan[?]” for an unannounced Apple product. He has directed job candidates still working for Apple to bring “Actual parts” from Apple to their interviews for “show and tell” sessions in which he and his team at OpenAI can elicit still more Apple confidential information. These directions to bring Apple’s parts to OpenAI job interviews surprised at least one of the candidates, who commented that he “didn’t even know we could take those from the office.”

    10. This is part of OpenAI’s strategy to extract Apple’s confidential information. OpenAI has been instructing Apple employees to bring “CAD/design artifacts” and “prototypes” to their interviews and to divulge details about their work such as “subsystem and component selection,” the “tools or methodologies you use for system integration, such as CAD software, simulation tools,” and “Vendor selection and communication/collaboration with vendors.”

    11. OpenAI also instructs new hires on how to avoid scrutiny when they leave Apple. For example, Mr. Tan warns them not to tell Apple that they have taken jobs at OpenAI, so they can stay at Apple as long as they can. After his own departure, Mr. Tan improperly retained or obtained an internal Apple managers’ document marked “Need to Know” that describes security procedures for employee departures. Messages left on Apple-issued work devices show that Mr. Tan and his OpenAI colleagues have been sharing this document with new hires before they give notice to Apple of their departures, previewing Apple’s security protocols. Unsurprisingly, Apple’s investigation has found a pattern by employees who depart for OpenAI of taking steps to evade the security processes intended to protect Apple’s confidential information.

  • andrewinardeer2 hours ago
    This is going to be interesting.

    Only because both companies have access to billions and infinite lawyers.

    • jediknightluke32 minutes ago
      OpenAI has concepts of money.
      • simondotau2 minutes ago
        OpenAI investors have concepts of money. OpenAI has its investors’ money.
    • mingus8816 minutes ago
      Apples billions are in cash

      OpenAIs billions are in IOUs to Nvidia

    • LandoCalrissian3 minutes ago
      Only one has Actual Money™ and quite a lot it.
    • avgDev35 minutes ago
      Lawyers: rubbing hands together
    • grttw142 hours ago
      Imagine comparing what apple has access to vs a deeply money losing firm
      • generj25 minutes ago
        More importantly Apple can effectively bring up the shadow of this lawsuit whenever OpenAi tries to acquire money.

        They can make legal fillings and calls to Bloomberg to keep the story going as long as they want to and suck some oxygen out of any IPO ramp up.

      • FridgeSeal31 minutes ago
        The “nuclear bomb vs coughing baby” meme comes to mind.
  • Marciplan15 minutes ago
    probably the real reason why Apple opted Gemini over ChatGPT
    • simondotau4 minutes ago
      Changing suppliers is potentially the reason why Apple’s AI strategy was so delayed.
  • 2 hours ago
    undefined
  • s0814869240 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • ChrisArchitect43 minutes ago
    • LoganDark15 minutes ago
      The threads have now been merged, it seems.
  • grttw142 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • bigyabai2 hours ago
      Nothing that Steve Jobs advocated for coincides with OpenAI's business ethos. OpenAI would be just fine.

      The burden of proof falls on you to defend that theory.

      • grttw142 hours ago
        [flagged]
      • nba456_an hour ago
        Steve Jobs would've drowned OpenAI in a thousand lawsuits like he did Samsung. He knew better than to compete fairly.
  • exabrial2 hours ago
    They didn't still the property, that would be illegal. They trained a model on it. That's totally ok.
  • nba456_2 hours ago
    Reminds me of Apple suing Samsung. Why bother with the free market when you can just sue your competitors?
  • nba456_an hour ago
    Reminds me of Apple suing Samsung. Why bother with the free market when you can just sue your competitors?
    • 37 minutes ago
      undefined
    • dofm21 minutes ago
      Some of the Apple/Samsung complaint was horseshit (and was a bit of a distraction because they knew they'd need to settle their suit with Nokia).

      But it was design copying and IP infringement stuff: duplication of things already in the wild.

      This is on another level. If any of this is true, it's extraordinary, and I think OpenAI will likely want to settle quickly, thus increasing Apple's AI-related earnings.

  • Conscatan hour ago
    According to Apple, are there any tech companies in the galaxy who haven't stolen their trade secrets?
    • mingus8813 minutes ago
      If you can’t see the difference between a design firm pointing out obvious riffs on their first to market designs…

      And a company openly instructing poached employees to exfiltrate documents on their way out the door, well…

  • apparentan hour ago
    >In its lawsuit Friday, Apple accused Tang Tan, OpenAI’s chief hardware officer and a former Apple executive, of coaching his hires from Apple on how to evade Apple’s security processes for departing employees.

    The word "coaching" is very malleable, and could refer to perfectly legal conduct, or conduct that is illegal, unethical, or both. How would an OpenAI employee know what Apple's security processes for departing employees are? One would assume he was told by previously-departed Apple employees. Would they have been forbidden to disclose information about the outgoing process? I would think so, given how careful Apple is about these things.

    > Apple accused another former employee, Chang Liu, of using a former colleague’s Apple-owned laptop to access and download technical documents while working at OpenAI. Mr. Liu told that Apple employee what information about unannounced products she should study before job interviews, Apple said.

    I would be very hesitant to assist a former colleague who is still at Apple in this way. Apple is well known for using deliberate leaks to smoke out leakers, and it would be easy for them to get a current/loyal employee to go through the interview process at a competitor for the purpose of finding out if the competitor is trying to get Apple employees to act unethically/illegally.

    • wilsonnb3an hour ago
      > How would an OpenAI employee know what Apple's security processes for departing employees are?

      The openAI employee in question is also a former Apple employee.

      • apparent31 minutes ago
        Ah, somehow I missed that even though it was included in the quote I copied. Thanks!
      • MeetingsBrowser21 minutes ago
        Not just any employee. A 24 year veteran and at the time of departure the VP of design for the iPhone and Apple Watch
    • madeofpalkan hour ago
      > After his own departure, Mr. Tan improperly retained or obtained an internal Apple managers’ document marked “Need to Know” that describes security procedures for employee departures. Messages left on Apple-issued work devices show that Mr. Tan and his OpenAI colleagues have been sharing this document with new hires before they give notice to Apple of their departures, previewing Apple’s security protocols.

      https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28453229-apple-v-ope...

      Lawsuits like this tend to be surprisingly easy to read, partly because they intend for the public/journalists to read them.

    • BeetleBan hour ago
      > How would an OpenAI employee know what Apple's security processes for departing employees are?

      Either by being a former Apple employee, or polling former Apple employees.