39 pointsby halperter7 hours ago8 comments
  • winter_blue5 hours ago
    There's a summary of this essay on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_on_the_Guillotine

    This is a 1957 essay by Algerian-French philosopher Albert Camus.

  • quantummagic4 hours ago
    > it is obviously no less repulsive than the crime,

    Hard disagree. There are people who deserve death, and it is a good thing when it happens. It's just really dangerous to give the state such a power.

    • halperter8 minutes ago
      What criteria would allow for someone to "deserve" death? Is it as a form of revenge, like most "deserved" punishments?

      Camus believes that state sanctioned revenge just breeds more violence. The death penalty is not a deterrent, it is something that offends the senses, and it is ultimately served on the platter as a criminal getting their just punishment in revenge.

      Either such a revenge is public, to declare that justice has occured, or it does not happen at all. What revenge is a secret and supressed lethal injection? By all accounts, revenge should be public and furious, it should be there for the victims to see.

      >Indeed, one must kill publicly or confess that one does. not feel authorized to kill. If society justifies the death penalty by the necessity of the example, it must justify itself by making the publicity necessary (Camus).

      Thus, revenge is not a sufficient reason for capital punishment due to the abhorence we have to see death in public. Camus adds that such public exetions only harden the ones who need to be softened and offend the soft. He uses the example of pickpockets. A large majority of pickpockets who were sentenced had viewed the execution of a pickpocket before. Revenge only perpetuates violence.

      Camus doesn't think that a muderer _doesn't_ deserve a punishment, but rather that a murder in any case cannot be accepted.

    • aejm3 hours ago
      I wonder if you would feel different after witnessing an execution (by guillotine)? I believe Camus is arguing that you would, giving his father as example of someone who similarly changed his mind.
      • quantummagic2 hours ago
        I have always actively avoided all the videos online of beheadings or other types of death, because i'm squeamish and don't want such images in my head. However, while not in person, I did actually witness a guillotine execution video. Admittedly it was filmed at a few hundred feet away, so it lacked any gore or closeups of the corpse. It was a shocking process - how quickly it happened (30 seconds from the appearance of the condemned to their demise). But it wasn't too hard to watch, and hasn't haunted me.

        Anyway, there are a great many videos online of murders and other death scenes, and famously there were VHS tapes available pre-internet called "faces of death" showing such events. A great many people actively seek out and watch such things, seemingly with no negative reaction to them. So there are a lot of people who would presumably be even less affected by a guillotine execution than I was.

        • t-3an hour ago
          I mean, hangings and torture used to be done publicly and people would gather to watch in large crowds, even bringing the whole family. There are still people who travel to witness death-row executions for no apparent reason than their own pleasure. This kind of morbid obsession with violence and trivialization of it as a spectacle has become much less common as people have become more civilized with time, but I doubt it will ever fully disappear.
          • halperter5 minutes ago
            Camus also writes that these morbid events essentially harden the people who need to be softened, trivializing violence and thus perpetuating it. He uses the example of pickpockets, where a large majority of pickpockets convicted had atteneded an execution of another pickpocjet, sometimes stealing from others while the execution was ongoing.
        • iwantitezan hour ago
          [dead]
      • TacticalCoder2 hours ago
        > I wonder if you would feel different after witnessing an execution (by guillotine)?

        Not at all. There are kids murderers out there. Recently one in France raped and then killed an 11 y/o girl. Somehow he was free although he'd already been involved in rapes. It's a big thing: there are protests all over France asking for actual laws actually doing something about rapists and kid killers.

        To me the guillotine for a kid killer is way too nice: I'd go full medieval style, breaking his arms and legs while he's rotating on a vice. Then cutting his balls. Then finishing it by using horses to dislocate his body.

        They used to do that in the middle-age.

        From A to Z I'd be thinking about the persons you don't care about: the victims.

        The problem is, as someone else mentioned, as soon as you give the state the power to kill people, they'll abuse it.

        But, deep down, the harsh truth is very simple: leniency to rapists and murderers is cruelty to the victims, to their family and to their future victims (like just happened in France).

        All those begging for leniency for criminals have the blood of that 11 y/o girl who got raped and killed by a repeat offenders on their hands.

        • halperter2 minutes ago
          This may sound harsh, but I believe that anyone who fantasizes about cruelly murdering anyone has something wrong with them. Have you seen a death, saw someone dying in all the glory of their guts splayed around you? If that is something you desire to see, perhaps this death drive of yours requires some introspective.
        • gsinclairan hour ago
          “…the person you don’t care about…”

          Your comment is below the intellectual and interpersonal standard that makes HN a good place to be.

          I don’t doubt your sincerity and I can abide your opinion, but you should be restrained in ascribing such points of view to others.

        • defrostan hour ago
          > They used to do that in the middle-age.

          Not casually and not for "minor crimes" (by the standards of the time) like the killing of a child.

          The overly performative hung, drawn, and quartering variations were reserved for high crimes of treason, regicide, etc.

        • OnTheDesk2 hours ago
          Sound to me like you're thinking about a violent fantasy toward the offender rather than the victims tbh
  • 4 hours ago
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  • cindyllm4 hours ago
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  • LNSY5 hours ago
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  • iwantitez5 hours ago
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  • iwantitez4 hours ago
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  • catapart4 hours ago
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    • JKCalhoun3 hours ago
      "Anyway, yeah, your dad had a weak stomach…"

      Yeah, no we can still want justice and not want to be horrified by the act of execution for the rest of our lives.

      Or, I don't know, perhaps we can crush parts of their body one at a time. Or maybe set fire to their limbs one at a time. I mean, why not?

      (And never mind that if The State could, even once, execute someone who is innocent, it renders capital punishment instantly null and void in my mind.)

      • romanhounds3 hours ago
        And what's your solution for this gross asymmetry of wealth? "Engineers" working 4 hours a week from resorts for enormous salaries? PE and VC run rampant, politicians bought and paid for, lobbying for corporate interests... I don't see why they should be allowed to keep accumulating more power and wealth..
    • senordevnyc3 hours ago
      This sounds like something I might have written at 15. Only fools who have never known the horrors of war or indiscriminate violence would wish for the world you’re fantasizing about.
      • 3 hours ago
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      • catapart3 hours ago
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        • senordevnyc3 hours ago
          lol, truly hilarious, you’re a software engineer cosplaying as a bloodthirsty class warrior on HN.

          But sure, you’ve seen some shit and you’ll make those evil rich people pay for all your horrible suffering.

          That’s enough keyboard warriors for one day for me, going to bed. Hope you find some peace.

    • iwantitez4 hours ago
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      • randallsquared3 hours ago
        > I saw a question once on Quora asking why the poor don’t rip the wealthy out of their houses and the top reply was “Nazi!” with hundreds of upvotes.

        This seems odd because it usually goes the other way: people complaining about the rich typically tar them as the "Nazis". For people against destroying the rich, the usual epithet for those who want to do so would be "commies"...