64 pointsby measurablefunc2 hours ago16 comments
  • scottfits5 minutes ago
    i think an important nuance and the reason we don't suddenly have a sovereign wealth fund is it’s not a centralized US Gov buying stakes. It’s a bunch of different government entities using different pools of capital

    - Commerce dept: Intel, IBM quantum, GlobalFoundries, D-Wave, Rigetti, xLight

    - Dept of "war": MP Materials for rare earths, L3Harris rocket motors for munitions

    - Energy dept: Lithium Americas / Thacker Pass, Westinghouse nuclear

    - White House: U.S. Steel golden share

    • alephnerda minute ago
      Excluding the White House, this is the correct approach. Each department and it's associated agencies have better domain experience in speicifc niches.

      This doesn't preclude the creation of a generalized SWF, but there is a difference between an SWF, SDF, and everything in-between.

  • asimpson14 minutes ago
    The investments listed here in the article make this seem like an effort to shore up or incentivize industries or companies that are integral to national defense. One example, in the ongoing US-China trade war one of the strongest moves China did was put [export controls on rare earth minerals][1] which are essential components across technology, defense, and healthcare to name a few. The government investing in these companies isn't ideal from a free enterprise perspective but seems rational from a national security perspective.

    [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earths_trade_dispute

    • alephnerd12 minutes ago
      Yes. This is called industrial policy, and there is bipartisan support for this. 2008 changed thinking on both sides of the aisle around leveraging state power to build industries.

      Plenty of us Obama and Biden alums are industrial policy fans, and there is a similar cohort across the aisle.

      • coffeemug2 minutes ago
        The issues with this are precedent/slippery slope. Today it's a small stake in a small number of companies, but empirically government initiatives almost always grow. Once entrenched, I would be willing to bet that the government will take larger and larger stakes in a bigger and bigger number of companies until this model becomes a non-trivial, potentially dominant, share of the economy. I can see myself becoming a single-issue voter to oppose that future (although given bipartisan support I'm unlikely to have any options; maybe Rand Paul).
      • thehoff10 minutes ago
        I'd be curious as to how much the executives at these firms earn (whether it be through salary or equity or whatever else).
        • alephnerd8 minutes ago
          In most cases, same as an L6/7/8 at Google MTV.

          Heck, I earn less as a VC today than if I remained a SWE or PM in my niche but with more stress and worse working hours.

  • cryo326 minutes ago
    VEB OpenAI next?

    Shall I dig out my Auferstanden aus Ruinen vinyl?

  • bilsbie14 minutes ago
    I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be against this but it seems like if the percentage is limited and they’re non voting shares then it should be ok.

    I guess preferential treatment could be the only issue?

    • UncleOxidant10 minutes ago
      > I guess preferential treatment could be the only issue?

      I'm not sure it's the only issue, but for now focusing only on this issue: it's a really big issue. The R's often complained about Dems choosing winners and losers (IIRC related to the solar industry). This is now way beyond what the Dems were trying to do by advancing solar. The gov can use it's buying power to sway things towards Intel, for example, over AMD. Huge potential for conflict of interest that will distort the markets.

      The other tangential issue is that in some cases these can look like bribes. For example, OpenAI "offering" 5% of their stock to the gov.

      • asimpson6 minutes ago
        > The gov can use it's buying power to sway things towards Intel, for example, over AMD

        Pretty sure that's the goal: the government wants a competent cutting edge chip maker on US soil.

      • dismalaf7 minutes ago
        > The gov can use it's buying power to sway things towards Intel, for example, over AMD.

        Well, Intel is actually important for national defense because of their foundries...

        Whereas AMD sold their foundries long ago so now they're just one of many fabless chip designers.

  • dachworker30 minutes ago
    Corporate taxes don't work and taxing the rich is super hard. Could this be a way for the state to suplement tax revenue?
    • lantry17 minutes ago
      It creates a lot of perverse incentives, and is probably a bad idea in the long run. If the govt makes more money when intel is successful, then the govt is incentivized to sabotage Intel's competitors (e.g. through tariffs, export controls, and many other powers). This distorts the free market that is (allegedly) at the center of America's success
      • vizzier14 minutes ago
        The answer is probably an automatic state in any company over a specific size given to the government. The only competition is then international.
    • choult21 minutes ago
      No, not enough money in it.

      Tax the rich.

      • jauntywundrkind13 minutes ago
        Just remember Piketty too, Capital in the 21st Century: the purpose is not generate revenue. It's too prevent extreme concentrations of wealth & power, to diffuse the un-democratic dangers hazards and threats.
  • jdw646 minutes ago
    If the left had done this, they would have been attacked for "socialism." But since it's a right wing administration doing it, it becomes "national security industrial policy."

    This isn't communism. It's state capitalism that socializes losses and privatizes profits.

    It's bad communism and bad capitalism at the same time. I'd like to call this 'Napoleonism,' after the pig Napoleon in George Orwell's Animal Farm

    • ashdksnndcka few seconds ago
      Communism with American Characteristics
  • ChrisArchitect34 minutes ago
    Related today:

    OpenAI ‘in early talks to give 5% stake to US government’

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48759623

  • cjoelrun31 minutes ago
    Owning the means of production is so capitalist now...
    • krappa minute ago
      It is when capitalists own the means of production.
    • alephnerd20 minutes ago
      Repeating outdated tropes ad nauseum is dumb.

      There is bipartisan support for industrial policy.

      2008 shaped our thinking on this and most of our policymakers in the 19th century were influence by Alexander Hamilton and Fredrich List.

      Our allies (Japan, South Korea) as well as our competitors (China) use this as well, and so did the US until the 1990s.

      I support the CHIPS Act and IRA. I also support building an American SWF as well as operationalizing state-managed SWFs and pension funds into SDFs as well. And so do most decisionmakers who were in the Obama and Biden admins as well as the Trump admin.

  • benoauan hour ago
    Isn't that just socialism without the social benefits?
    • dayofthedaleks22 minutes ago
      There’s a word for such a political system, it starts with an ‘f.’ Expressing opposition to it in the context of current events gets you prosecutorial enhancements.
    • ortusdux23 minutes ago
      It's been the status quo for a while now - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/trillions-of-dollars-in...
    • jordanban hour ago
      Been like this since the GFC: the rich gave a government funded undo button they can press whoever they need to.
    • mghackerlady16 minutes ago
      Closer to fascism, socialism implies the workers own the means of production to an extent
    • jerf20 minutes ago
      The term "fascism" has undergone so much memetic drift that it verges on useless, but this does bear a striking resemblance to fascist corporatism [1], at least taken to the logical conclusion:

      "A fascist corporation can be defined as a government-directed confederation of employers and employees unions, with the aim of overseeing production in a comprehensive manner. Theoretically, each corporation within this structure assumes the responsibility of advocating for the interests of its respective profession, particularly through the negotiation of labor agreements and similar measures."

      A lot of dystopian literature has been written with the premise that governments would wither away and end up replaced by mega-corporations that become the de facto law. I suppose the theory where the government just buys all the corporations instead because they control the money supply was generally overlooked by those authors. The end result probably isn't much different, but the path to get there has some differences, I suppose. It also seems reasonable to say that the authors, not being from the finance world (at least that I know of) may not have realized the depths to which financial engineering would sink and the willingness of the governments to participate in it.

      Back in the 1980s when cyberpunk was really thriving the government at least made mouth noises about fighting the worst excesses of financial engineering. Whether history bears that out as something they were actually doing, the reader is welcome to come to their own conclusions about. But the government at least tried to look like a countervailing force to financial engineering.

    • moregristan hour ago
      Pretty much.

      For all the current US administration has complained about the opposition being “socialist,” they’ve certainly gone all-in on the state partially owning private companies.

      Almost like cries of “socialism” have become a dog whistle instead of what the term actually means.

      • burningChrome21 minutes ago
        >> For all the current US administration has complained about the opposition being “socialist,”

        Not a dog whistle when its actually true. How many more DSA candidates need to be elected before you stop saying this?

        Candidates endorsed by the Democratic Socialists of America have scored victories in 35 primary elections so far this year, including upsets against entrenched incumbents.

        https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/campaigns/congressio...

        • dofm12 minutes ago
          Those people haven't been elected at all, yet.

          And at what level are they? Aren't there over half a million elected officials, one way or another, in the USA?

          There are nearly twenty thousand at state level or above.

    • kingleopoldan hour ago
      Norway is far ahead in this, they collect lots of tax from poor and avg. people yet they have the biggest wealth fund in the world. literally only benefits certain groups
      • exe3433 minutes ago
        That certain groups being everybody, since they use the interest from the fund to put into the general government budget.
  • thisislife22 hours ago
    Have we come full circle now with China inspired by American Capitalism to create their own model of it, that now inspires the Americans to imitate the Chinese?
    • everdrive37 minutes ago
      Yes, we've been copying the Chinese in a few cases in the past 6 years. I think they're the early warning signs of cultural dominance. Sort of like how a tin-pot African dictator in the 1980s would have an over-the-top western-style military uniform.
  • throw0101dan hour ago
    Capitalism with American characteristics:

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_charact...

    • johnny_canuck39 minutes ago
      There's a reason they call him JDPON DON!
    • api16 minutes ago
      Mao Thedon?
    • cyanydeezan hour ago
      Next step would be to do what europe does and put the unions on the boards and move towards social.

      That or just go full fascism. Who knows!@

      • bit-anarchist26 minutes ago
        Fascism? Skip it and go full socialism.
        • mghackerlady16 minutes ago
          those are on two completely different sides of the political compass
      • fhdkweig39 minutes ago
        Now the government has an extra incentive to get rid of unions entirely so that the company (and the government shareholder) makes more money. So yes, option B.

        They also have an incentive to use legal pressure to suppress competitors. But I am sure this (and other administrations) would never throw their weight around for fun and profit. /s

  • ck231 minutes ago
    this is why democrats are so stupid to use the word socialist even though it's accurate

    sovereign funds, federal ownership making companies "too big to fail" is 100% socialism

    but republicans are devious enough to know not to call it that

    so do we get to idiotically slur the current administration and call them communists?

  • Terr_an hour ago
    > Article research and generated imagery enabled by AI tools including Claude by Anthropic.

    *sigh*

    • ryanisnan36 minutes ago
      The modern equivalent of an ad hominem attack. Do better.
      • exe3431 minutes ago
        There's literally no hominem being attacked.

        If you want human attention, expend human labour.

        • ryanisnan28 minutes ago
          What a reductive take - attack the argument or move on.
          • bit-anarchist24 minutes ago
            Tbf, they are saying the argument isn't worth engaging to begin with (not that I agree with)
          • exe3410 minutes ago
            I did. you failed to understand.
  • dolphinscorpion33 minutes ago
    Hey, we're gonna buy 10% of ....in a week.

    Thanks dad.

  • skybrian25 minutes ago
    If the US government got nonvoting shares in startups along with VC's then that could bring in lots of revenue from capital gains without calling it "taxes."

    If it were in return for a tax break then they might even do it voluntarily. The key would be to get in while valuation is low.

    • Guvante17 minutes ago
      What capital gains? The governments balance sheet doesn't matter...

      Think of it like the original Bitcoin wallet, its value is $0 because none of those will ever be sold.

      If dividends are involved it could matter but the government basically gets 20% of dividends already and extra 4% doesn't make a huge difference.

      Returning to blocking stock buybacks as price manipulation and forcing businesses to give out dividends again would actually impact revenue in a meaningful way in contrast.