149 pointsby Alupis8 hours ago19 comments
  • arghwhat14 minutes ago
    Well, this is about USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, which is a mess created by USB IF for good old, blue USB A connectors. Not USB-C complexity.

    USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 is the very rarely supported 20Gb/s variant of USB 3, and making devices now that require that for full performance is a weird decision, with high-speed capable ports generally having wider support for either USB4 or Thunderbolt3+. I imagine the reason would be that some chip with an otherwise poor market fit got cheap...

    Throwing this into the mix definitely doesn't improve the USB-C "what does this port support" conundrum, but this specific one predates USB-C and is not at all something you'd normally hit.

    • adrian_b9 minutes ago
      10 Gb/s Ethernet interfaces do not require 20 Gb/s USB ports for reaching maximum performance, they already reach that on 10 Gb/s USB ports, despite of what the writer of TFA believes.

      The main application of 20 Gb/s USB ports is to connect external NVMe SSDs, when faster USB 4 or Thunderbolt ports and SSDs are not available.

      For an external NVMe SSD on USB, a 20 Gb/s USB port will double the throughput, unlike for a 10 Gb/s Ethernet interface where any improvements are completely negligible.

      I do not think that 20 Gb/s USB Type C ports are "very rarely supported". Every mini-PC or desktop motherboard that I have bought during the last 10 years had at least one such USB port.

      Such ports appear to be rare only on laptops, because most laptops have very few USB ports.

  • adrian_b20 minutes ago
    Unlike "5 Gb/s" USB, which in reality is 4 Gb/s USB, so a 5 Gb/s Ethernet interface cannot reach its maximum speed on a 5 Gb/s USB, the "10 Gb/s" USB is really 10 Gb/s, i.e. the difference between its real speed and 10 Gb/s is small enough to be negligible.

    The same is true for 10 Gb/s Ethernet, whose speed is not exactly 10 Gb/s, but the difference from 10 Gb/s is also negligible.

    Therefore, you do not need a 20 Gb/s USB to reach the maximum speed with a 10 Gb/s Ethernet interface, a 10 Gb/s USB port is good enough.

    The overhead of data framing on USB is slightly higher than on Ethernet, so the maximum throughput on an USB 10 Gb/s Ethernet interface is a little lower than for a PCIe Ethernet NIC, but the difference is small enough to not matter. Usually other factors, like bad device drivers or inefficient programs, can cause much greater variations in Ethernet throughput.

    The 9.4 Gb/s throughput obtained in TFA is perfectly reasonable when taking into account the packet overheads, which make impossible to reach 10 Gb/s for user data, regardless of hardware. A 20 Gb/s USB interface could not provide any serious improvement over that.

  • nrp2 hours ago
    Point of clarification since it isn’t clear from the title. This isn’t a Framework product, but a product by Wisdpi designed for the Framework Expansion Card form factor.
    • znpy32 minutes ago
      hey Nirav, dumb question: would it be possible to have usb-c ethernet adapters using intel chips in order to have vPro features on framework laptops (along with vpro-enabled intel chips) ?

      That's probably the missing cherry on top, as having vpro once the framework motherboard gets reused as a home server it gives some manageability features.

  • ChuckMcM3 hours ago
    I chuckled at 10G wired ethernet on a laptop. I mean in a docking station? Sure that seems reasonable. But fun none the less.

    I appreciate the USB-C nature of the Framework's expansion ports, it does make real the entire reason that USB was created in the first place, hot plug slots. Still, I (and others) pointed out to Intel early on that using Ethernet with a specific packet type would be cheaper and just as fast (which the ATA over Ethernet folks proved), but then you wouldn't get the 'certification tax' that the USB consortium extracts. :-).

    Cynicism aside, the design issues suggest that it might make sense in future laptops to have heat spreaders around the plug in port, although that makes things thicker and people obsess over thinness.

    • anthonj23 minutes ago
      Others comments already mentioned multimedia, but for example where I work we have some development board and prototypes with 10g ethernet, but most developers have a laptop rather than a fixed station. Turns out smallish (but overly expensive) thunderbolt 10g adapters can be used for testing and even reach full thoughput in many cases.
    • Dylan168072 hours ago
      > I chuckled at 10G wired ethernet on a laptop. I mean in a docking station? Sure that seems reasonable. But fun none the less.

      What difference does a docking station make? Sometimes you want to spend a minute or two setting up your laptop in a more serious way, and that's just as reasonable with or without a docking station.

      • koolala25 minutes ago
        Reminds me of routers on the internet.
    • PunchyHamster16 minutes ago
      I wish they would just have direct PCIe lanes. For most of the cards doing those speeds USB is just unnecessary overhead
    • atoav2 hours ago
      If you work with media having a 10G connection on a laptop isn't all that absurd. In fact slow network speeds are the main reason why people have to use things like Thunderbolt instead of using a NAS (e.g. offloading data on a film set).
  • RachelF7 hours ago
    Every PCIe 10G ethernet card I've seen has a heatsink on it, sometimes covering the entire card or even have little fans on the heatsink.

    Expecting it to work full time in a laptop is a bit of a stretch of the heat dissipation budget.

    Also, the laptop he is working has the AMD FP8 chipset - depending on how the ports are setup, he might only get 10G USB, if the ports are allocated to video instead.

    • timschmidt6 hours ago
      New chips from Realtek burn < 2W for the chip and < 3-4W for the board: https://www.servethehome.com/cheap-10gbe-realtek-rtl8127-nic...
      • numpad05 hours ago
        4W is TDP for some of Pi-style mini computers. Lots of them have fans.
        • timschmidt4 hours ago
          Pi 4 and 5 both idle around 3W. But a Pi 5 can pull up to 16W with a USB peripheral, full CPU load, and decoding 4k video. The Pi 4 / 5 will run OKish without a heatsink at idle wattages, but thermal throttle quickly if you attempt to do something intensive.

          These realtek 10gbe chips are more in the range of the Pi Zero class machines (0.5W idle, 2W loaded) which don't often come with heatsinks though they might benefit from them. If it has a good thermal connection to a good thick ground plane on the PCB, that's worth almost as much as a passive heatsink on the top of the chip.

          usb-c < card edge < motherboard integrated in terms of how much heat can be transfered through the connection. Where the motherboard would have the largest ground plane to soak up heat from such an IC and dissipate it passively. The usb-c module is worst case by being a small enclosed box with very little thermal connection through the plastic insulating housing. An aluminum enclosure might dissipate enough heat passively to make it pleasant to use.

          • devmor3 hours ago
            > The Pi 4 / 5 will run OKish without a heatsink at idle wattages, but thermal throttle quickly if you attempt to do something intensive.

            Even with a heatsink and fan, I had to upgrade to a higher quality set to keep Jellyfin from thermal throttling a Pi5 while transcoding 4K video.

        • merpkz2 hours ago
          Raspberry Pi 4 doesn't need a fan. People just like to put them on because because micromanaging CPU temperature is part of the hobby for some. Yes it might throttle its CPU speed when going full tilt for some time, but lets be real how many workloads require poor Raspberry Pi to be loaded 100% for prolonged periods of time?
          • rjzzleep2 hours ago
            If it throttles CPU it means by definition means that a fan helps. Also constant heat increases failure rate.
            • parineum34 minutes ago
              Cycles of heating and cooling are what increases failure rates. The thermal expansion and contraction causes issues.
          • msh2 hours ago
            Running plex/jellyfin :)
      • userbinator5 hours ago
        ...and yet they're still covered by a huge heatsink.
        • mystifyingpoi5 hours ago
          To add perspective, an old-school 7805 voltage regulator dissipating just 1 watt is already impossibly hot to hold with bare hand (as me how I know). So 3-4 watts on a small module will make it noticeably hot.
        • drnick14 hours ago
          They aren't huge at all, the new RTL cards are tiny. I wish 2-port versions were available for a home server upgrade.
    • 6 hours ago
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    • 6 hours ago
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    • jfb7 hours ago
      Yeah, 10Gb ethernet runs hot. I just rewired the house with 10Gb (we have 8Gb FTTP) and it's kind of upsetting how hot my Thunderbolt dock gets.
      • Gigachad6 hours ago
        I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber. Ended up deciding that 2.5gbit is plenty. The 2.5 gear is significantly cheaper and runs cool.
        • 6 hours ago
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        • jfb6 hours ago
          Yeah, I use DAC for the desktop and fibre between floors. It's just the Mac's desktop that uses RJ45 copper.
        • drnick14 hours ago
          > I looked in to it and it seemed like 10gbit was much better over fiber.

          Yes, except that most devices use Ethernet. So, at the end of the day, you still need Ethernet cables unless you want to deal with an additional switch or converter in every room.

          • eqvinox3 hours ago
            Fiber/10Gbase-*R is Ethernet too. Please say copper/RJ45/base-T when you mean copper/RJ45/base-T.
          • Dylan168072 hours ago
            > every room

            I disagree with that for two reasons. First, my central switch is probably capable of both copper and fiber. Second, how many wired devices do you have spread around your house? Let's say I have an above average number of devices: a router, a NAS, two access points, and three desktops. Router, NAS, and one access point can all be adjacent to the switch and avoid any conversion hassle. The desktops are using fiber so no conversion hassle there. That leaves one copper cable or converter needed for the other access point.

          • Gigachad4 hours ago
            Indeed, that's largely why I decided 10gbit at home isn't really worth it. The current 10gbit ethernet stuff is expensive and power hungry, the enterprise stuff is hard to use on consumer gear. And the only real use case is super fast access to a nas.
            • kstrauser3 hours ago
              I got it solely because our ISP bumped our home fiber to 10Gb and it would’ve hurt my soul for the router to be slower than that. And hey, if you’ve already got a router with 10Gb ports available and ready to go…
      • DrPhish3 hours ago
        I redid everything that matters in my house/homelab with DAC cables for exactly that reason. Order of magnitude difference in watts and heat
      • znpy29 minutes ago
        > it's kind of upsetting how hot my Thunderbolt dock gets.

        I have seen the same with just usb-c multi-port dongles for macbooks (the ones they give you at work along with the macbooks).

        in fairness to the docs/dongles though, they have an incredible amount of features that would have been science-fiction twenty years ago.

      • 6 hours ago
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      • seany3 hours ago
        [dead]
    • polski-g5 hours ago
      So the entire Framework card's casing should have been copper?
  • Aissen31 minutes ago
    Before Jeff first talk about this, I got one of those cheap Ethernet adapters (with the new realtek chip) on aliexpress for ~55€. It works really well, but I don't have USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 hardware, so I only get ~4Gbps out of it. But I'm pretty happy to break the 1G barrier, and the adapter will be useful in the future when I get better hardware; and I don't have to go through a 2.5Gbps or 5Gbps step.
  • ggm3 hours ago
    Only getting 95% of the book rated speed? I'm OK, that's still a shitload-and-a-half of speed.
    • Dylan168072 hours ago
      The point was how fussy it was to get that 95% instead of something closer to 75%.
    • delamon28 minutes ago
      He only gets 4-5Gbps in the other direction.
  • hdgvhicv2 hours ago
    10g copper is notoriously power hungry. That’s why 90%+ of my 10g ports are SFPs.
  • raverbashing10 minutes ago
    Sounds like the dual problem of "I want the thinnest" is the "I want the most powerful" on miniature equipment, and of course you run into an unbalanced situation

    Honestly I don't see much of an use for 10Gbps in a notebook that can't be solved by a dongle when you actually need it

  • kelnos7 hours ago
    In a way, I kinda don't get the idea of an expansion card for ethernet, rather than just a dongle. Specifically, as in this case, where it sticks out from the side of the chassis.

    If I'm on the go, I'll have to take it out of the chassis while it's in my bag so I don't damage it. In that case, it's easier to have a regular USB-C card in that port, and toss a dongle in my bag instead of the expansion card.

    If I'm not on the go, I'm at a desk, and I'd still rather plug in a dongle than regularly swap an expansion card.

    I'm not saying you'd never want the expansion card, but it feels pretty niche.

    • getcrunk7 hours ago
      A lot of people use their laptop as a desktop replacement and kinda leave it in one spot or only move it between two spots (home desk/office desk) rather than as an actually portable take anywhere use anywhere situation
      • Gigachad6 hours ago
        In that case I'd rather just have one of those big usb hubs that has every port on it. Rather than an adapter designed that it only works on one laptop. Sure in theory you could plug them in to any but the design of it is such that you'd snap the connector if you plugged it in to a normal port.

        While a regular usb-c ethernet adapter has a flexible cable between the laptop and the bulky rigid part.

        • geerlingguy6 hours ago
          Thunderbolt hubs are rather amazing now; in the past they'd either get super hot and have reliability issues, or had severe bandwidth limitations (especially if using larger displays).

          The current crop has been great for my needs — a couple models have 10G Ethernet built in (CalDigit is the one I'm using now), and most now have more than one Thunderbolt port that allows a high speed storage device to be used as well (in addition to a 5K or 4K display or two!).

          • californical4 hours ago
            My TB5 dock from OWC on a M4 Pro MacBook can run dual 4k 240hz displays, 2.5gb ethernet, and several peripherals no problem. It also provides 100W of power. All over a single cable. So good these days
            • kstrauser2 hours ago
              I may have the same one and I love it so much. Plug one USB C-looking cable into my laptop, and two 32” monitors and a host of accessories light up as it starts charging. It’s the greatest docking station ever.
      • kelnos5 hours ago
        In that case why wouldn't you use a hub/docking station type thing? And again, that configuration still lends itself just fine to a dongle.
    • NewJazz7 hours ago
      I'd also add that at a fixed location/desk, having a dock with ethernet is also very normal.

      Anyway it is probably just there to demonstrate the possibilities to consumers. What if a lower profile standard for networking gets popularized?

      • RiverCrochet6 hours ago
        they had very flat (on one side) Ethernet pigtails in the PCMCIA days.
        • mjevans5 hours ago
          Those sucked so hard, were extremely finicky to plug in, and I was in constant terror of breaking it. Even the popout jack things were horrific in that respect.

          I'm 1000% for wired connections where possible, but for laptops too thin to have one built inside of the frame the best choice is a proper docking station, ideally with a cable that isn't impossible to user replace.

        • kelnos5 hours ago
          Oh god, bringing back memories I don't want. They were always so fragile.
      • kps4 hours ago
        ix (IEC 61076-3-124)
    • RobotToaster2 hours ago
      I don't get it either.

      If it had a hinged or expanding[0] ethernet port so it could sit flush with the chassis when not in use it would make a lot more sense.

      [0] It's easier to show what I mean https://www.reddit.com/r/TechnologyPorn/comments/hvlxep/orig...

    • alex435787 hours ago
      Isn’t that kind of most things Framework? Sure, a replaceable color bezel is fun, but pretty niche.
      • SV_BubbleTime5 hours ago
        I fell out of love with frameworks after buying one for myself and a few employees.

        The economics/upgrade math just does not make sense.

        • Gigachad3 hours ago
          Framework feels like a case of giving HN users what they asked for, but not what they actually needed.
          • alex435782 hours ago
            Like the constant cries for an iPhone Mini, which subsequently sold terribly, because people like good battery life, a generous screen size, and feature-rich cameras. Apple didn’t learn because they went on to do the Air, but whatever.
            • Dylan168072 hours ago
              The minis, despite being sold at the same time as SEs and having to share demand, did fine. And if you want to improve that situation the obvious answer is to pick one or the other, not to cancel both. If you want even better stats, much more than needed, wait 2-3 years between releases.

              My best guess for Apple's actions is that despite there being a very real demand for a smaller phone, they don't think the discomfort is bad enough for people to switch to Android, so they don't even try. A small phone makes a lot of profit, but ignoring the demand also makes a lot of profit.

              The Air was a real flop.

    • db48x7 hours ago
      There’s nothing to “get”. The circuit doesn’t fit inside the slot for expansion cards. You could plug in a dongle instead, but then you’d have a big hole in your laptop with a cable sticking out. Or you could just get a wider laptop bag. They make them in multiple sizes, you know.
      • Jtsummers6 hours ago
        > you’d have a big hole in your laptop with a cable sticking out

        No, you wouldn't. You'd have one of these instead: https://frame.work/products/usb-c-expansion-card?v=FRACCQ000... (or the one matching a color you prefer and your particular model)

        • db48x6 hours ago
          Now you’ve got two things plugged into your laptop, instead of one that sticks out by an inch. :)
          • evilos5 hours ago
            Technically all framework 13 laptops always have four things plugged into it because the ports are modular such that the user can choose which ports they want.

            Unless you're crazy and leave the expansion ports unpopulated.

      • kelnos4 hours ago
        Er, no, then you'd use the regular USB-C expansion card and plug the dongle into that, and then the port becomes generally useful.

        A wider bag doesn't solve it. The part that sticks out could still easily snag on something. I wouldn't want to take that risk, and I doubt many people would.

        I feel like you're arguing just to argue...

    • 7 hours ago
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  • purpleidea4 hours ago
    Having it stick out like that is such a stupid design. Almost as dumb as all the 2FA dongles. The USB-A ones that you could leave in actually made the most sense. Yes I know.
  • petterroea4 hours ago
    Frankly, considering this is a laptop, I wish they spent more effort on delivering a flush 1gbe module rather than a 10gbe module. It has become an elephant in the room every time someone asks about my framework laptop. It... sticks out like a sore thumb, per say.
    • MostlyStable2 hours ago
      As others have commented, this is not a Framework product. That's part of the beauty: they open source there designs, allowing for third parties to easily make things like this (and much more beside). I believe at some point someone in the community was trying to design one of those slim ethernet ports that expands open when you need it (the jack doesn't really fit). Apparently some of the mechanisms for doing so are still proprietary though.

      -edit- here it is: https://community.frame.work/t/low-profile-ethernet-expansio...

  • dmitrygr3 hours ago
    The article never does resolve WHY it was slow in linux :(
    • jeroenhd3 hours ago
      The video mentions that drivers were needed to get the full speed on Windows, and that the Realtek Linux drivers didn't compile on a modern kernel. So it's probably software.

      Realtek makes some pretty affordable networking chips but their Linux drivers can be a real gamble. Either it works out of the box or you're in for years of messing around.

  • jeffbee4 hours ago
    I think most people do not have 10g UTP infrastructure they want to exploit, but many people do have 2 computers they'd like to connect together at high speed, and these people are far better served by just connecting those computers' Thunderbolt ports together. With nothing other than an admittedly pricey cable, you get 10, 20, or 40gbps links depending on the endpoints. That's the "something faster" that will work well for most people.
  • naturalmovement3 hours ago
    Only Framework could reincarnate godawful PCMCIA cards as proprietary USB-C dongles and be praised for it. Insanity. Maybe next they can bring back the XJACK.

    No one wants to address the elephant in the room: it's a crap design for proprietary modules. Sure the design is open, can you use them anywhere else? Nope.

    You're paying a premium for USB-C dongles that can't be used on any other brand of laptop. Apple is probably upset they didn't think of it first.

    • gobelet3 hours ago
      Of course you can use the modules on any other brand of laptop. It's not going to look pretty doing it, but I've routinely used the USB-C to USB-A, as well as the mini SSD, on a MacBook Pro.

      Colleagues borrow them all the time when they need a SD card or MicroSD card reader. Is it as pretty as a dedicated reader for those cards? No, but it does the job.

      Saying they're proprietary is misleading a bit. The form factor makes it awkward to use elsewhere but they work just fine anywhere you plug them into.

      • naturalmovement3 hours ago
        It is not mechanically fit for purpose.

        You can likewise put 26" rims on a Ford Fiesta but it will look and function equally poorly.

        • Dylan16807an hour ago
          Slap on a 4 inch extension cable and it's not meaningfully worse than any other dongle.
    • Patryk273 hours ago
      I don’t follow - how are modules based on USB-C proprietary?

      My Framework ethernet dongle works perfectly fine with a Mac that I use for work, for instance.

      • naturalmovement3 hours ago
        I knew someone would ask this.

        It is mechanically disagreeable.

        The weight/shape of the module will break the USB-C port in short order because it is solely supported by the connector.

        For instance, by bumping the spatula hanging off your Mac.

        For that matter, USB-C are crap connectors, I don't care how many graphs and BS data you show me stating they're the most reliable connector ever. I do not believe it.

        They're the only types of connectors I've seen damaged repeatedly, and the only one with which I've personally experienced damage, and I've been using laptops since before many of you were born.

        • Patryk273 hours ago
          So you’re saying the modules have a suboptimal design for non-Framework laptops.

          Sure. But this does not make them proprietary, they work fine with non-Framework laptops as well.

          • naturalmovement3 hours ago
            I'm not getting into a well ackshually argument over this.

            Can you slide them into a just-sized mechanical receptacle on a MacBook? On a Dell, HP, etc.

            No.

            • 23 minutes ago
              undefined
    • sourcegrift31 minutes ago
      I understand your disdain for fandom but in this case this isn't a product by framework. This is a 3d part product resulting from framework's basic motivation and associated actions of nurturing a 3rd party ecosystem. I don't like fandom but we can admit framework's theoretical raison d'etre is pretty good
  • shieldly5 hours ago
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  • kevinten106 hours ago
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  • drnick14 hours ago
    Does a laptop really need more than 1Gbps or whatever you can get through WiFi? It's an edge device not a router.
    • koalalorenzo3 hours ago
      Well, it's Framework we are talking about. My plan is to buy it because at some point of its lifecycle my Framework 12 motherboard will be used as a new node in my Homelab. :)
    • stephbook3 hours ago
      Obviously not. I've got a $300 WQHD monitor that has 1GB/s over USB-C with power delivery. MacBooks have 2GB/s WiFi.

      For the niche enthusiast, that dongle is fine.

    • geocar3 hours ago
      Yours is an “edge device” but I am root, so mine is a portable tool for managing and testing the network that does not have working WiFi access points attached to it or obviously I would not be there.

      And yes, some of those links are above 1gbps so that the users can have individual 1gbps links.

  • mxfh3 hours ago
    More amazed by the complexity in bundling offers, of decking out your Framework device with 6 flush USB-C port extension ports sets you back 60 bucks already.

    That's like a weird hidden tax.

    In a network world where 1GB Ethernet randomly can handshake at 100Mbit still, getting reliably more than 3/4 of the advertised Bandwith from the Adapter seems quite harmless.

    https://frame.work/marketplace/expansion-cards?search=USB-C

    No they dont come free in the base config either, you have to pay a minimum of 10 for every slush port.

    • gobelet3 hours ago
      I like the modularity, but I'd feel better if it came with the "blanks" that just extends the inside USB-C port towards the outside.

      I feel like things would not look like nickel-and-diming if those blanks came with the laptop, and they just priced them in the final price. Or even better, offered the option to "upgrade" one or several of those to whatever you need.