43 pointsby JumpCrisscross6 hours ago10 comments
  • alexjplant5 hours ago
    > “There is a subset of people, maybe the smallest subset, who are literally making a choice not to pay rent, and we don’t do well with acknowledging that but there is a subset for whom that is the case,” [...] Others bristle at the notion that some tenants are not paying rent just because they may be able to get away with it.

    These people absolutely exist. To pretend that they don't is willful ignorance. They are, however, indeed a "small[est] subset" to quote the gentleman in the article. In the era of $4 McDoubles and $6 gallons of gas I have trouble believing that one in four people is my burnout college roommate who spends on Fireball shots and Xbox games instead of paying rent. Life is expensive these days.

    • jandrewrogers4 hours ago
      I anecdotally know of a few cases in Seattle where tenants with high incomes that could easily pay just don't. There is a subculture that actively encourages this type of behavior and the laws are setup such that there are almost no consequences for it. I've also met people who bragged about doing it. While rare, it is still common enough that it has become a real problem and has become socially acceptable in some circles.

      It is corrosive to the social contract when government policy tacitly encourages this behavior.

      • CursedSilicon3 hours ago
        As someone who also lives in Seattle, I'd be curious to see any verifiable citations to such a wild claim
        • itake35 minutes ago
          https://www.nationalreview.com/news/seattle-area-landlord-tr...

          One news article mentioned he worked in the medical field and when he was approved to move in, his income was $300k+).

          The state actually ended up helping cover the lost rent and paid for the tenant’s legal bills for fighting the eviction.

          https://www.discovery.org/a/nightmare-tenant-in-bellevue-con...

        • lelandfe3 hours ago
          • CursedSilicon2 hours ago
            I mean, Elmo's SpaceX is busy lying about being "In Redmond" too (they're in Redmond Ridge, a significantly more rural area about 6 miles away)
        • abhinai3 hours ago
          He said “anecdotally”. In any case, I was wondering that if I know a friend who does this, how could I ever present a verifiable citation for it? You may have to rethink your ask.
          • albedoa30 minutes ago
            Okay. I can anecdotally tell you that user jandrewrogers does not know of any cases in Seattle where tenants with high incomes that could easily pay just don't. Our anecdotes cancel each other out.

            > how could I ever present a verifiable citation for it?

            There would likely be at least one (1) report of such a wild claim due to how wild it is. We wouldn't need anecdotes!

          • mmooss34 minutes ago
            Sure, but the comment upthread could provide evidence that "it is still common enough that it has become a real problem".
          • CursedSilicon2 hours ago
            Anecdotes aren't usually admissible as evidence, is the thing
        • cyberax36 minutes ago
          There are such people. I have a unit in Seattle that sits empty because I don't want to risk getting stuck with such tenants.

          In Seattle, you can't:

          1. Evict people from November to April (it's "winter"). 2. Evict people with schoolchildren during the school year. 3. Run background checks on prospective tenants. 4. You _must_ rent to the first qualifying tenant. 5. You must offer 3 months in rent as compensation if you decline to renew the lease. 6. The maximum rent increase is capped.

          Oh, and eviction process takes about 1.5 years now because the courts are overloaded and the tenant can use procedural tricks to drag out the process.

          If you want names, this case made newspapers: https://wealthandpoverty.center/2025/02/11/the-bellevue-squa...

          • pixelatedindex6 minutes ago
            Apart from maybe being a little more flexible on evictions, none of the other reasons seem problematic.

            For instance not renting to the first qualifying tenant is a common root for discrimination. Why wouldn’t you rent to the first qualifying candidate?

            The giving tenant three month rent thing is for a very small circumstance - for example huge rent increases if the tenant income is low, condo remodeling, etc. The wording is: “landlords who issue a housing cost increase of 10% or more (within a 12-month period) must pay relocation assistance if the affected household earns 80% or less of the Area Median Income and chooses to move.”

            Maximum rent increase being capped also makes sense - I’ve been hit with 15-20% rent increases with no choice but to move.

            It seems like you don’t like the tenant having any rights, and you want to impose your will upon them.

          • itake29 minutes ago
            I explicitly bought in Lynwood so I’d have the option to rent out my house and avoid king county
    • rdtsc3 hours ago
      > They are, however, indeed a "small[est] subset" to quote the gentleman in the article.

      The numbers don't have to stay small because this behavior is not generated independently in a population. Multiple people may become aware of it by talking to each other, social media, forums, some crazy news event that refers to it, etc. All of the sudden a lot more people decide they can do it as well and tell their friends.

      I am not defending it or saying one side is right or wrong just that when it comes to things like this there may be a different model at play on how this behavior is generated.

    • naturalmovement4 hours ago
      There's entire Reddit communities of these people where they encourage and validate their shitty behavior.

      With some of the stories I've read, you'd have to be positively insane to be a small-time landlord these days, especially in these large cities with kooky renter protections that make it nearly impossible to evict someone.

      Go watch Pacific Heights with Michael Keaton for a fictionalized account but this stuff absolutely happens every day.

      I saw one recently where the renter has not paid rent for six years and is unable to be evicted. It made national news.

      So where does that leave the industry? You eventually push out the mom and pop landlords by making the regulations so insane it only leaves behind the large corporate property management companies and their army of lawyers. Who will collude and drive rents up. It's a vicious cycle and these cities are not helping one bit.

      • nradov4 hours ago
        Tenant "protection" laws are the type of idiocy that economically illiterate progressive politicians always produce. They end up having the opposite effect by making property owners less willing to rent out to anyone. The only effective way to protect tenants is to set public policies that encourage new housing development. When there is a housing surplus, the laws of economics force landlords to treat tenants well. Build more housing!
        • toast016 minutes ago
          Tentant protection laws are always a matter of degree.

          Requiring a process in order to evict tennants is a good thing. If the process is unsatisfyable or extremely lengthy, I don't think it's a good thing anymore. There should be a way to get destructive and severely disruptive tenants out in a hurry. Ordinary breach of contract things (failure to pay rent, problematic behaviors that violate the lease but aren't an immediate issue, etc) should have something like a 3-7 notice period and then be referred to court and figured out without undue delay.

          I'm ok with limiting the reason for the landlord ending a lease, especially where the tenant has stayed there for a long time.

          IMHO rent control/rent stabilization can be useful when the cap isn't set too low, and there's reasonable ways to pass through less predictable costs. If the cap is too low, rent gets significantly behind the market rent which causes trouble for landlords but also leads to situations where renters end up stuck where they are; maybe better than being forced out but not if the property deteriorates. If the cap is too high, it doesn't provide meaningful stability or a planning horizon for tenants. If it's in the right place, it gives renters reasonable time to adjust to market changes. Again, IMHO, 3% is probably too low, 10% may be too high, somewhere in the middle is nice to have.

          Tenant protections setting deposit limits and process for assessing against the deposit seem reasonable to me. Landlords are going to screw tenants out of deposits if they can, regardless of the market realities, because the relationship is over, the renter is busy with other stuff, and the landlord has the money.

        • woodruffw3 hours ago
          There's an economic floor for the price of housing: the amortized cost of the building and its maintenance, plus taxes and overhead imposed by governments, utilities, mortgages, etc.

          In other words: even in a plentiful housing market, there will always be someone who struggles to pay rent (including transiently), because a rational housing market can't offer $0 rents. Tenant protection laws exist to protect that person from a landlord who would otherwise be incentivized to throw them onto the street.

          • itake25 minutes ago
            Yeah… these laws for private landlords to subsidize housing for other families.

            If you only have 1 rental property and your tenant doesn’t pay, that’s a 100% loss of revenue while your family personally bears the cost of supporting this other family.

            Whereas corporate landlords can absorb these losses by raising rents on 100 doors to cover the families that refuse to pay

          • 41 minutes ago
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        • archagonan hour ago
          Do you own your own house? Are you rich?

          I’ve known acquaintances who got de facto evicted without warning just because their landlord decided to make a few extra bucks. Were that to happen to me, I would not be able to rent in my current city at all due to the recent influx of wealthy tech workers. (Read: extremely high rents with ridiculous income requirements.) Fortunately, my city has robust tenant protections and rent control, so I don’t have to live my life in fear of ending up on the curb. Some people see that as a bad thing; I guess they think I should save up a few million dollars to buy a condo or abandon my community and move to the boonies.

          This would be less of an issue with more housing stock, but that takes decades to build. As a city resident inconveniently living in the present, that does not help me much.

          Obviously, I’d never vote for a politician who would make it easier for a landlord to evict me arbitrarily. And I’d eagerly vote for the same protections for any other renter.

          • nradov4 minutes ago
            It sounds like you're living in a badly governed city. Have you considered voting for politicians with an abundance agenda? Or moving to a city with more intelligent housing policies such as Dallas?
          • itake22 minutes ago
            I think you’re leaving details out of your story. If the landlord wants to make a few bucks, then they keep their good tenants (lowers vacancy rate, keeps repairs low, etc).

            Kicking out good tenants cost landlords money.

            • archagon20 minutes ago
              It’s pretty simple. There’s a tech boom or similar, a bunch of rich workers move in, rents go up. Landlord spikes rent by 30% to take advantage. You can see this happening in r/sanfrancisco today, for non-rent-controlled units.
              • itake11 minutes ago
                Sf is kinda a mess. Sf’s rent control also means tenants can’t leave (locking up more housing, reducing supply, forcing everyone else to pay more), thus continue to discourage rent controlled tenants from moving since moving means even higher prices.

                The property tax situation in SF is a mess.

                SF also requires a lot of expensive regulations (earthquake proofing, renovation permits, rising California insurance costs, etc).

                Also… the unfortunate reality is there is only so much space and the capital markets determine who gets to live where. If you’re not able to keep up in a city, then there are better places for you.

          • sp52717 minutes ago
            > I guess they think I should save up a few million dollars to buy a condo or abandon my community and move to the boonies.

            If you can't afford to live in your city, what distinguishes you from the people in the boonies? Why should they be relegated to the boonies while you successfully game the system?

            • archagon16 minutes ago
              I can afford to live in my city. I’m living in it right now! The nice thing is that I don’t get pushed out by arbitrary economic fluctuations completely out of my control.
              • sp52714 minutes ago
                Correct me if I'm wrong, but your comment suggested you'd be unable to afford market rent.
                • archagon12 minutes ago
                  I can afford to live in my city because my landlord isn’t able to tack an extra $2000 to my rent due to the sudden influx of AI bros.
        • senectus13 hours ago
          sure because a property owner is going to not rent out a property and just take the month on month hit for having an empty property. They'll either rent it or sell it.

          There is a middle ground, just need to find that point.

          • nradov3 hours ago
            Apparently you haven't been paying attention to what's happening in the rental market. Landlords in cities with strong tenant protection laws will absolutely leave a unit vacant for months until they find someone with a high income ratio and credit score. This leaves poorer people stuck with no options.
            • mmooss31 minutes ago
              Do you have evidence? There is evidence that RealPage software illegally coordinated (maybe coordinates) landlords in keeping units off the market in order to reduce demand and increase prices for everyone.

              https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/24/technology/realpage-doj-s...

              • itake20 minutes ago
                Me (and others in this thread).

                I have a 5 bedroom house that I rent out 2 rooms, but not interested in accepting more people unless they are friends or have a very high income.

                At my home’s peak, we had 6 adults living there, now its at 50% capacity.

            • archagonan hour ago
              Vacancy tax. No one should have the right to buy multiple, rentable homes and keep them unused in the middle of a housing crisis. It’s sociopathic.
      • rationalist4 hours ago
        I have friends and coworkers that want to have rental properties, and I advise them it's not worth it.

        I don't want to be in a position where I have to pay more to fix damages than I collectected in rent if I accidentally rent to deadbeats. Or in a position where I have to provide services to someone not paying me.

        One of those friends has parents that rented out their old house to deadbeats at the top of the housing market instead of selling it. Those deadbeats have been nothing but trouble and yet my friend still wants to be a landlord.

        Somehow the idea of owning rental properties became a pervasive notion in the U.S.

        • cherry_treean hour ago
          Landlords typically have insurance coverage for damage by tenants, including lost rent.
          • itake15 minutes ago
            It’s hard for new landlords. People that bought houses to rent compete against property owners of paid off homes or people with 3% mortgages.

            Tacking on optional insurance products on a property that’s already in the red further encourages landlords to push up rents prices.

          • an hour ago
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        • _DeadFred_2 hours ago
          Wage theft is the number one form of theft in the USA at around $15 billion. Hopefully you advised your friends to avoid working for wages as that is the number one way to be ripped off by deadbeats in the USA.

          Somehow the idea of working for wages became a pervasive notion in the U.S.

          https://www.denver7.com/news/national-politics/the-race/wage...

      • ethbr1an hour ago
        > especially in these large cities with kooky renter protections that make it nearly impossible to evict someone

        The problem is that there will always be more voting renters than voting landlords. So in a purely democratic system, policies which favor renters at the expense of landlords will always be supported.

        And that said, some renter protections are definitely needed, because there is a subset of landlords that engage in flat out illegal behavior.

        Deposit withholding, making illegal demands, illegal renter selection practices, etc.

        Imho, that tends to be concentrated in the "1-5 unit" landlord range, because those landlords are usually (a) not lawyers & (b) treat their properties like pets instead of a business.

      • jen204 hours ago
        If you think the Reddit communities of tenants are bad, you should try reading the Reddit communities of landlords (at least the UK ones).
        • mc33014 hours ago
          Yeah.... So many bad tenants. So many bad landlords... So many weird laws protecting and hurting both.

          What if we shifted to a different system?

          • weakfish3 hours ago
            The question that many do not want to think about. We (as a society (referring to all Western Liberalism, not just the US)) are so thoroughly convinced that Liberal Democracy is the End of History, and it's the 'flawed but best,' as many say, but refuse to imagine something better.

            It's puzzling that a system that is supposed to reward creativity and genius like capitalism limits it's inhabitants in their imagination when it comes to how one might structure society.

            I don't claim to have the answer, and _no,_ my issues with Liberal Democracy/Capitalism don't mean I'm a communist / socialist / thing-people-don't-like.

            • nradov3 hours ago
              What would you like us to imagine? So far everything that we've tried at scale other than liberal democracy and capitalism has inevitably led to war, famine, and genocide. Western liberalism appears to be the only system that empirically works. Some would claim that "socialism with Chinese characteristics" works better, but if you look below the surface prosperity in first-tier cities the actual economic situation is rather grim and the human rights situation is horrific.
              • margalabargala2 hours ago
                Arguably, benevolent dictatorships tend to be the best. Singapore is a good example.

                The trouble is making a system that can guarantee the "benevolent" part in the longer term.

                • mmooss29 minutes ago
                  Make an argument, beyond one city (if it's true there - Singapore might be better off, on some of the best real estate in the world, with free elections)? All the most free, wealthy, safe, creative, innovative societies in the world are democratic.

                  And on what basis does some dictator get to tell others what to do? OK, I am the dictator and I'm telling you to give me 10% of your income and never post this nonsense in HN again. :)

                  • margalabargala19 minutes ago
                    There are a lot of values there that.you're presenting as though "this is what society should be" when it's actually "this is what liberal democracy thinks society should be". So obviously we have a foregone conclusion.

                    Plenty of societies happily trade away one or more of those values for other values.

            • _DeadFred_2 hours ago
              It's not Liberal Democracy that is the problem but a society where all of the slack has been optimized out, every extraction maximized, every infraction forever a scarlet letter on an individual, zero stability but constant crisis inflicted on individuals. There is no room in modern day America for people in the margins. Society needs to make a place for them and a path out of constant crisis, or the homeless problem will continue to grow.

              Another hidden issue in the USA is many households are dependent on contributing income from a retired/disabled/working past retirement age elderly parent/family member. Those people are going to start passing in mass, and a lot of households will become even less resilient.

      • poopdick4 hours ago
        [dead]
      • 8note4 hours ago
        This is a bit of an intentional result, no?

        the goal is for peoppe to own the places they live in

        • nradov4 hours ago
          Why should that be a goal?
          • fyredge4 hours ago
            To discourage rent seeking behaviour?
          • CursedSilicon3 hours ago
            Because every human being needs shelter?
            • nradov3 hours ago
              Having shelter is not the same as owning real estate.
    • morkalork4 hours ago
      In my city, and I assume many others, there's an informal landlord's group that shares lists of problem tenants to avoid renting to. While problematic, I wonder if it's made any impact.
      • seanmcdirmid4 hours ago
        Usually this is handled with credit reports right? It’s only when the state forbids landlords from demanding credit reports that informal networks are necessary.

        In general as a tenant you can only get away with not paying rent once (until eviction happens, no one will ever rent to you again without federal or state assurances), and as a landlord you will only skip the credit report requirement once (because your first tenant is going to be a deadbeat who screw’s you).

        • nradov4 hours ago
          In cities with excessive tenant protection laws, sometimes landlords will negotiate agreements with deadbeat tenants in which the tenant agrees to leave and the landlord doesn't report anything to the credit bureaus.
        • polski-g3 hours ago
          Credit reports do not have a section for "plays music loudly" or "secretly smokes by the bathroom window".
          • toast0an hour ago
            They can have a section of public records if anything rises to the level of filing with the courts.
  • delichon5 hours ago
    > We have to consider what the unintended consequences are of public policies or practices where there are no immediate consequences for someone who falls behind on rent

    > Many [landlords] say they don’t actually intend to evict anyone, but that filing these cases is the most expedient way to get emergency rental aid from the city.

    Economics in one easy lesson: incentives matter.

    • vannevar5 hours ago
      While that is certainly true, it's a very narrow view disconnected from the reasons for the policies. The most likely explanation for more people not paying their rent is that even fixed rents have become increasingly unaffordable because other costs have risen faster than wages. So yes, people are "choosing" not to pay rent because the consequences of not paying the rent lag substantially behind the consequences of not eating or buying gas. But it's an absolutely rational decision. FTA:

      >...plenty of economic indicators suggest worsening financial duress for people already struggling. Costs are going up faster than wages, and inflation that took hold after the pandemic has proven painfully persistent.

      • throwawayqqq114 hours ago
        >plenty of economic indicators suggest

        > — and no one's sure why

        Now that i saw the framing, i am looking differently on the discussion here. The smalles troublemakers are more news worthy than broad economic factors behind us all, so you dumb down your headline...

  • toofy4 hours ago
    i occasionally come across some of the forums and online groups of landlords and the things they have to deal with, particularly in cities with strong protections for the tenants and its interesting to watch the perspectives.

    on one hand i feel for some of the landlords who have to deal with some of the very real slacks who go out of their way to be difficult tenants.

    on the other we’re talking about homes, by this i mean to stress home over investment. i think we’ve made a terrible mistake in incentivizing people to use homes as an investment. it should be difficult to evict someone from their home, and it should be risky and a pain in the ass to use someone else’s home as an investment.

    i feel bad for _some_ of the landlords but from a larger societal perspective we’re going to look back at incentivizing so many people to invest as a landlord as a massive mistake.

    • dfxm128 minutes ago
      The landlord can divest themselves of the investment. It's also ok if people lose money on investments. I don't think you have to feel especially bad for landlords.
    • polski-g3 hours ago
      The renter is not being evicted from their home. They're being evicted from the landlord's home. They're just renting.
      • 19863 hours ago
        They're being evicted from their home, but from the landlord's property. It would be the landlord's home if the landlord lived there, but they don't, because they're renting it to the tenant.
      • margalabargala2 hours ago
        [dead]
  • _DeadFred_2 hours ago
    All slack has been removed from society. All pricing has been maximized. Every interaction capitalized. Every point of extraction extracted from.

    People living in these situations now live from crisis to crisis. Not paying rent/dealing with the consequences is just another on the list. At some point people just become numb. Modern society at the peripherals is not sustainable. There will always be people in the peripherals, but society is now structured to require middle class type stability as the bottom baseline for an individual to survive.

    • kbar1339 minutes ago
      and the middle class is being destroyed
  • djeastm5 hours ago
    It sounds like an ad-hoc rent strike. Not a great sign for an economy.
  • sieabahlpark5 hours ago
    [dead]
  • hagbard_c5 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • _bohm4 hours ago
      I can guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of low-income people who are delinquent on their rent have no clue who Cea Weaver is. Nor is there any kind of organized rent strike occurring. Do you live in NYC?
      • hagbard_c4 hours ago
        No, I don't even live in the USA. I followed the election of Mamdani as an outside observer because it is quite a thing for a 'democratic socialist' to become mayor of what can be considered to be the 'financial capital of the world'.
        • albedoa14 minutes ago
          > No, I don't even live in the USA.

          Oh no way.

          There are plenty of outside observers who are not confused about why a hugely popular New York City mayoral candidate was elected mayor of New York City. Your improbable confusion would seem to be a personal failure that has nothing to do with New York, Mamdani, democratic socialism, or your identity as an outside observer.

    • hdgvhicv5 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • RagnarD5 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • nathan_compton5 hours ago
      "The uptick in rental delinquency isn’t new. It started six years ago, when the pandemic flung the city’s economy into chaos and plunged low-income New Yorkers into dire financial straits. But even as the city has rebounded, rent collection rates in affordable housing remain short of pre-pandemic levels. As costs balloon, landlords say insufficient rental income is threatening their ability to stay afloat."

      It started 6 years ago, before he was mayor.

      • alex435785 hours ago
        [flagged]
        • valiant554 hours ago
          The pandemic didn't end when Mamdani was elected. The economic impact from the pandemic is going to be felt for decades.
  • JCTheDenthog5 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • tomhow4 hours ago
      We've banned this account.

      Don't register accounts to post vile comments like this. We don't care what the source is; we care about the insinuation and the agenda, and everything it pattern-matches with. We've already banned a previous account of yours for one of the most egregious comments ever seen here. Please stop wasting everyone's time.

      We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48623195 and marked it off topic.

    • vannevar4 hours ago
      The question raised by the article isn't why people don't pay their rent; it is why the number of people not paying their rent has increased. Occam's Razor suggests that the most likely reason is also the simplest one: that prices have risen much faster than wages, making even fixed rents less affordable.
    • greekrich925 hours ago
      Put the skull calipers down
      • JCTheDenthog5 hours ago
        [dead]
        • 1shooner5 hours ago
          What in the world does conspicuous consumption by race have to do with TFA?
          • JCTheDenthog5 hours ago
            [flagged]
            • lovich4 hours ago
              I agree with the skull calipers comment, you came out of left field with the race shit and all benefit of the doubt for dog whistles left a few years ago
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  • gacgacgac4 hours ago
    People can't afford to live and food comes before paying your landlord? Economy is fucked right now. Income inequality pushes any gains into the hands of the wealthy.

    And frankly, more and more people are willing to stuff their landlord if they feel their landlord isn't holding up their end of the deal.