54 pointsby Brajeshwar6 hours ago24 comments
  • 1vuio0pswjnm72 hours ago
    "This week, politicians in the UK pushed forward with plans to eviscerate privacy and free speech on the internet by announcing a ban on social media for users under 16 that is set to take effect in Spring 2027."

    Is "social media" the internet

    Does "social media", i.e., "Big Tech", preserve privacy or eviscerate it. "Internet privacy" is been in direct conflict with their "business model". They engage in sweeping data collection and mass surveillance of internet users to support invasive "personalised" ad services

    It seems like most people engaging in "free speech" on "social media" are not anonymous, not really interested in "privacy"

    In many cases, they "share" their every thought

    40 ways to share information over the internet without age verification

    https://decss.zoy.org

    This is old and could be updated with more

  • cbdumas6 hours ago
    If governments want to set up online age gates, they should be responsible for providing an electronic ID system and enable privacy preserving age verification (zero knowledge proofs)
    • segmondy5 hours ago
      Who is "government" Is it not the people? The people don't want this crap. It's a few zealots with their motives that are pushing this down society.
    • Aurornis5 hours ago
      Zero knowledge proofs don't accomplish the ID checking that the governments want.

      The reason all of these improvised ID check systems require you to do things like submit a video of you moving your face around (which has its own problems) is because they want to get closer to proving that the ID you submit is actually the ID of the person holding the phone, not just some ID (or zero knowledge proof) you copied from the internet.

    • 2OEH8eoCRo05 hours ago
      Implementation detail. Fine companies that allow minors access and they'll find a way to verify age by themselves.

      For liquor for example I don't think the govt actually specifies that you shall check ID they specify that you shall not sell to minors.

      • foltik5 hours ago
        > they'll find a way to verify age by themselves.

        Yeah, by outsourcing it to some shady company that sells all your private info to the lowest bidder. See Discord for example.

        • 2OEH8eoCRo05 hours ago
          Don't use the site then? Or sites can compete on which age verifies in the least shitty way?

          I think we have been stuck in this way of life so long we can't imagine an alternative.

          • foltik4 hours ago
            Classic. So tell me how I can just not deal with the credit bureaus? Or tax filing companies? Or any site that sells my data to adtech, without totally secluding myself from the modern web? Where’s the supposed competition?

            What you’re saying is functionally equivalent to “just deal with it,” since ultimately people will choose to have their privacy violated over the lifelong Sisyphean task of trying to avoid all of that. That doesn’t mean people don’t care about privacy, it’s just the current equilibrium in our broken system.

            > I think we have been stuck in this way of life so long we can't imagine an alternative.

            I agree.

  • throw56 hours ago
    Related petition to be debated in parliament: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/757233
  • btbuildem5 hours ago
    Canadian federal govt just pushed thru a slew of similar legislation - absolutely unprecedented assault on privacy, tools for tracking everyone all the time, minimally constrained, giving broad leeway to a three-person unelected body to implement the actual details.
  • big856 hours ago
    About 2 million adults in the UK don't have government-issued photo ID. Certainly many 16-17 year olds will have trouble verifying their age. They're blocking huge sectors of the UK population from being able to use the internet normally.
    • ilovecake19845 hours ago
      Nobody needs to use social media though.

      Really they should just torch the lot.

    • rimeice5 hours ago
      Use *social media normally. Social media != The Internet. They’ll be able to use 99.9999% of the internet just fine.
      • rahimnathwani5 hours ago
        YouTube is part of the ban.
        • em-beean hour ago
          so nobody can watch youtube without an account? that's going to go down well...
  • rich_sasha24 minutes ago
    I'm frustrated with how the various internet freedom orgs have handled this over the years.

    The writing was on the wall for years - it's not the 90s anymore and some compromise on anonymity and verification is coming. Frankly for good reason - I think the social utility of Big Social is massively negative, and even more so for kids.

    That was the shot of orgs like EFF to help shape the debate in a good direction. Zero knowledge proofs, anonymity preserving age checks, good govt regulation on this etc.

    Instead they all dug their heels in, refused to give an inch or even engage in the debate. If you wanted anything other that a Toresque utopia then you clearly want Big Brother to keep tabs on everything, and you're probably a moron who thinks you have "nothing to hide".

    So they vacated the space while Mumsnet users came to the only logical conclusion: let's ban social media for kids, with whatever method comes to their mind. Scanning their ID, face scans, fingerprints connected to a government DB ran by the cheapest contractor - who knows how this will materialise. And I kind of can't blame them. The adults of internet privacy vacated the room because they said everyone else in the room is too stupid. So they left and left the stupid people in charge.

  • AJRF5 hours ago
    Am I right in thinking that the EFF doesn't launch any legal campaigns inside the UK (but they offer support to those who do)

    Is there a UK version of the EFF that fights in the courts against this lunacy or does it not quite work the same in the UK as it does in the US.

    • daveoc645 hours ago
      > Is there a UK version of the EFF that fights in the courts against this lunacy or does it not quite work the same in the UK as it does in the US.

      The government looks likely to introduce the ban as regulation through secondary legislation (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9824zvpz9po).

      That is open to judicial review.

      If primary legislation was instead passed, that's a lot harder to challenge - Parliament makes the law, so whatever Parliament said applies.

      Politics is very different in the UK than in the US, especially when the governing party has such a large majority.

      The banning of under-16s from social media has widespread support across the parties in Parliament.

    • ilovecake19845 hours ago
      It’s overwhelmingly supported action.

      The technical incoherence doesn’t matter. What matters is being able to say “you can’t use Snapchat” and then they say “my friend xxx uses it” you can say “xxx’s parent are delinquent”

      This isn’t about blocking as much as setting societal expectations.

      • rimeice5 hours ago
        Totally agree. Setting the tone is so important. It’s so bad it’s “illegal” is a lot more convincing than saying to your kid, “well the research shows…”
    • pkaye5 hours ago
      If its primary legislation (Acts of Parliament) like Online Safety Act, the courts cannot strike it down. If its secondary legislation by ministers and other agencies, it could be contested in courts.
  • manwithopinions5 hours ago
    The EFF believes the ends (freedom) justify the means (access to everything good and bad for everyone). Governments are pragmatic, not fundamentalist.

    This article addresses the technological flaws in age verification, then says “but even if there were, broad restrictions on social media will inevitably limit access to lawful speech, and valuable online communities, and arts and culture.”

    If the EFF care about freedom above all else (a reasonable position) muddying the waters with half-baked age verification isn’t perfect arguments is just sloppy.

    Why does the freedom matter above all else? That’s what voters need to be convinced of.

  • enoeht5 hours ago
    Couple of Months latter kids will have vipe coded their decentralized sm version that's here to stay.

    When will politicians understand how and why the internet was build?

  • Littice2 hours ago
    "Under-16 social media ban" sounds narrow. In practice it means building an age-checking layer for the whole web, then hoping it only gets used for children.
  • 2OEH8eoCRo05 hours ago
    Big tech is deathly afraid of these experiments having a good outcome.
  • herghost6 hours ago
    This is a horrible straw-man of the situation which somewhat conveniently manages to sidestep any real acknowledgement of the genuine harm and its scale.

    Terrible article.

  • codelong8885 hours ago
    [dead]
  • somewhereoutth6 hours ago
    *to billionaires

    but snark aside, society needs to have a big conversation (meaning political) about what is good and what is bad about what should really be understood as the 'connectivity revolution' of the last 10-20 years.

  • AussieWog936 hours ago
    Honestly I would love to see a ban on social media in general, for all ages (or more specifically, content that's algorithmically feed and reliant on ads/engagement). Take out Tinder and gambling while you're at it.

    EFF are way off base here - this isn't "free as in free speech" but "free as in giant corporations are free to fuck people up the arse".

    • d4nt6 hours ago
      I agree, chronological feeds of people you’ve explicitly chosen to follow are fine, but AIs looking to optimize engagement have caused untold damage to society. Future generations will study it as an example of unintended consequences in AI systems. The sooner we shutdown this disastrous technology the better.
  • markus_zhang5 hours ago
    Just ban all social media, no need for consent, no need for age detection BS.
  • rimeice5 hours ago
    > they’ll also lose access to educational videos on YouTube, local events on Facebook, and potentially cut off from distant friends and family.

    Cmon, if you’re trying to make the case for how essential social media is for children under the age of 16, please find some better examples. As if there are no other sources of educational content online than YouTube and anyone who has left Facebook knows the last two points are simply not true. This is so weak from the EFF.

  • bebe839395 hours ago
    I am all for it. UK has a big problem with organized pedofile crime, and this may prevent it.
  • nativeit5 hours ago
    I do believe social media should be verboten for younger people, although I believe it should be enforced by good parenting rather than legislation. That said, we live in a society, and sometimes that means our libertarian ideals don’t work on the large scale. I reserve judgement for the people of the UK, their government isn’t without its serious faults, but less regulation doesn’t seem to be the panacea Reagan and Thatcher sold it to be.
  • bob0016 hours ago
    > they’ll also lose access to educational videos on YouTube, local events on Facebook, and potentially cut off from distant friends and family.

    How in the world did kids ever survive before social media? Miracle of god keeping them sane every second of their miserable deprived lives. Seriously, this is such a bad argument for something that is a return to a previous known good state versus being a new state. No proof provided that social media makes any of these better versus either pre social media approaches or modern alternatives.

    • iLoveOncall6 hours ago
      So because humans used to survive in caves eating raw meet we should go back to that?
      • bob0016 hours ago
        Ah a strawmen augment. This is comparing two specific states. If you’re admitting that the two states of pre and post social media are the same by virtue of resorting to a strawmen then glad we agree.
  • ungreased06756 hours ago
    The EFF is very wrong on this one. Some things are bad and we should keep children away from them.
    • infotainment5 hours ago
      The answer, IMO, is simply banning all algorithm-driven social media, for everyone and not just kids.

      This conveniently sidesteps the identity/privacy arguments, makes it much easier to enforce, and would present an even greater net benefit. There is no benefit to algorithmic social media at all, and everyone would be better off without it.

    • big855 hours ago
      We have parental controls on devices. The change forced by the UK government is to give control to corporations, instead of the parents.

      Parents are much better at knowing their own kid's age than corporations are. Teens keep fooling the age verification (pointing the camera at a video game character, using fake ID, even drawing beards on their face with a pen). But they aren't going to fool their own mother, and they don't need to trust ID verification startup with photographs of everbody's teenage kids to do it.

      • dreambuffer5 hours ago
        This is a tricky one, but it actually gives control to the government, not corporations. The government now has rules which let them define what social media is and how big its market can be.

        The government is, frankly, just better at deciding what's good for most children than their parents when it comes to matters of health. That's a controversial statement, but truthfully most parents are just not educated enough or strict enough to decide where the boundaries should be on their children's health.

      • Barrin925 hours ago
        >We have parental controls on devices

        That's irrelevant because social media regulation is a collective action problem. No individual parent can restrict their kids access to social media without ostracizing it, it only makes sense if all parents together get their kids off these platforms.

        • 5 hours ago
          undefined
        • joe_mamba5 hours ago
          >it only makes sense if all parents together get their kids off these platforms

          Yes, and the wishes of all parents together != the wishes of the UK government which has its own agenda at play in which to weaponize this public outrage for their own benefit(mass surveillance and mass censorship).

          The UK government doesn't actually want what's best for all the children of all the parents, otherwise it wouldn't have allowed and even enabled the rape gangs and sweep the issue under the rug in a massive coverup.

          • Barrin924 hours ago
            >Yes, and the wishes of all parents together != the wishes of the UK government

            This legislation has widespread support among British parents across the political spectrum[1]

            "As YouGov has shown previously, such a policy would be widely popular with the general public. In our latest survey, looking more specifically at the views of parents, we find that 77% of those with children under the age of 18 would support a ban, compared to only 14% who are opposed.[...] Likewise, 76% of parents think the government needs to kick up their activity on this issue, although a much lower rate of 43% think they need to be doing “much more”."

            I don't even have any idea what the last paragraph, other than being some generic twitter rant has to do with the topic of the thread

            [1]https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/54969-eight-in-ten-parents...

    • CuriouslyC6 hours ago
      I'm all for protecting kids from facebook/insta/snap/etc, they have love hate relationships with all of those, but YT is a bridge too far, is's more a knowledge sharing platform than a social network.
      • infotainment5 hours ago
        If you primarily choose to watch educational videos sure, but YouTube can give you just as much brainrot as TikTok, depending on what the recommendation engine decides you might like.
      • bob0015 hours ago
        Then it can separate the two separate components easily to satisfy whatever the law is. If it can’t then it is social media. A lot of YouTube is not knowledge sharing unless you view MrBeast as a sharer of knowledge.
      • ndngmfksk5 hours ago
        I think the personalised content and advertising puts it into the same category. At least, I think it has the same problematic incentives.
    • cebert6 hours ago
      Parents are there to protect their children. The potential harm caused by eroded privacy and reduced control over our devices is not worth the perceived benefits of this policy in ensuring children’s safety.
      • dreambuffer5 hours ago
        Unpopular to say, but the government is just better at deciding what's good for most children than their parents when it comes to matters of health. Unfortunately most parents are just very uneducated or lacking in discipline, and no child should be punished in the name of freedom. That being said, age verification laws are obviously a bad way to do that. They should just ban specific categories of social media outright.
    • odiroot6 hours ago
      Some things, like invasion of privacy, are bad enough, that we should protect all citizens from it, independent of age.
    • hactually3 hours ago
      So just DNS block them in the UK. They don't need YouTube
    • applfanboysbgon6 hours ago
      Great, you do your job as a parent and keep your children away from them while leaving the rest of us free from your envisioned surveillance state.
      • 4ndrewl5 hours ago
        He says clicking "accept" to tracking cookies and their 762 "partners"
        • applfanboysbgon5 hours ago
          Uh, speak for yourself, guy.
        • 39975315785 hours ago
          Not surpised supporters of the regime don't know about tracking protection.

          It's always the tech illiterates cheering on the surveillance.

          • 4ndrewl5 hours ago
            Weird take. And brutally, if predictably, wrong (client ad-blockers, pihole, wireguard if you must know).
  • CuriouslyC6 hours ago
    The whole idea of this is broken, since so much of our collective knowledge is locked away in YouTube/Reddit. It's making a law against children in libraries because there are adult books in it.
    • ilovecake19845 hours ago
      There is some okay stuff on YouTube.

      There is nothing stopping people reposting stuff on platforms without social media elements and with proper curation and publisher responsibilities.

      Most big YouTubers would love this to happen I’m sure.

      • krapp5 hours ago
        This will be a controversial statement here, but for better or worse, Youtube is a modern Library of Alexandria. It archives a significant amount of human knowledge and culture in video form, and for a lot of it, there is no backup.

        Big, popular channels do push their viewers to alternative platforms like Patreon because of Youtube's censorship guidelines and arbitrary demonetization, but a lot of valuable content is on smaller channels where the owners may not have the wherewithal to transfer all of their content, much less their audience.

  • proxyscore5 hours ago
    There's no defending social media, not for adults, not for kids, ever.

    It's a toxic trap which will do absolutely nothing good for and to its users.

    Keep the kids away from it, doesn't take an Einstein reincarnate to realize that.

    • rahimnathwani5 hours ago
      Hacker News is a social media site, but not according to the UK government.

      According to the UK government, YouTube is a social media site.

    • dylan6045 hours ago
      This is the slipperiest of slopes. I'm all for restricting social consumption, but absolutely against the current suggestions for age restrictions methods. The end goal is noble, the means of achieving it are sinister
    • ilovecake19845 hours ago
      Sure, is HN social media?
      • simondotau5 hours ago
        According to Australia’s rules, no.
  • throwawayffffas5 hours ago
    They are really underestimating the harm of being on these platforms causes.

    These platforms are the digital equivalent of heroin if heroin always came with either nazi or bolshevik propaganda.

    They are entirely focused on the axe they rightfully have to grind the whole age verification debacle they are not seeing the bigger picture.

    The major social media companies are undermining the foundations of our societies for ad revenue and giggles.

    Keeping teens out is a huge step in the right direction.

    • throwawayffffas5 hours ago
      I find the idea that someone would care about their privacy and choose to be on social media really hard to fathom. These things are personal data vacuums that infer everything there is to know about you, if you don't just give it to them.
    • queenkjuul5 hours ago
      Lmao yeah, bolshevik propaganda. Hilarious.