249 pointsby speckx8 hours ago30 comments
  • engeljohnb5 hours ago
    I'm glad it all worked out for this individual. I hope more people live their lives like this as the dystopia progresses.

    Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason, but also puts you at a significant disadvantage compared to the people that never push back in the interest of not making waves, or even because "whatever it's fine."

    • cheese_vanan hour ago
      Went to a new doctor. As part of the check-in process, I was asked to "sign" a little digital pad, so, as I was told, they could properly use my insurance. I asked to see the hard copy of what I was signing and they couldn't find one. Then, for some reason, they were unable to print one. I gave up and scribbled my sig with my finger and then was seen by a doctor. It's maddening.
    • uproarchat4 hours ago
      I am that person that reads every line of the contracts I sign, including ToS and PP. I appreciate that I can tell who it rubs the wrong way, because it tells me who will shake my hand without intending to honor their word. It changed the way I write these documents as well, the last ToS and PP I wrote can each be read in a single breath.
      • anitil2 hours ago
        How do you manage the situation socially? I had a very important document with a very expensive professional booked for about 10 minutes. No way I could actually read it in that time - what would you do?
        • uproarchat2 hours ago
          "I appreciate the opportunity to work on this with you, I need to give this the time that it deserves to make sure I can honor the commitments in the contract."

          Always maintain your integrity, a big part of that is honoring your word. Integrity is the only thing you're born with in this life, and if you're lucky you take it with you on the way out. Any person worth getting into contracts with will appreciate the value in that.

        • ambicapter2 hours ago
          Not GP, but probably ask them to send me the contract ahead of time, and explain that you need time to read it.
    • deepsun5 hours ago
      Once I rented an apartment in US, and the documents said that they can make videos, pictures and audio recordings of me and my family, and use it for their own purposes including commercial. I objected, but their position was that no one is going to involve legal department for me, and I am free to go away.
      • engeljohnb8 minutes ago
        Rentals are exactly what I was talking about. Supposedly you can always go to someone else, but we all know in practice we can't just go without housing and if everyone decides you're "difficult," you're SOL.

        Earlier this week a potential landlord offered me a lease saying I had already inspected the property and found no issues with it.

        I asked for a chance to actually inspect before signing, and even said I would settle for a good quality video walkthrough. They told me the unit was "not available for viewing" because it wasn't finished yet, and by the time it was finished it would likely be taken.

        So why did you ask me to sign a contract saying I inspected a property that it's conceptually impossible to inspect??

        I asked if they could change that part of the lease. They said they were "unable" due to "demand and interest in the property."

        Of course, still not as insane as your story.

      • smcleod5 hours ago
        Pretty sure that's a violation of fundamental human rights as it's your place of living. Surely that can't be legal, even in the US can it?
        • monkpit5 hours ago
          It doesn’t mean _inside_ the apartment. It means if they decide to film a commercial and you’re walking your dog in the background, they don’t have to ask you.
          • bigiain4 hours ago
            That sounds a lot like a rationalization desperately grasping at "surely it's not as insane as it sounds, what it _must_ mean is ... "

            I would want to read and perhaps get legal advice before relying on that interpretation - and before finding I signed over rights to my landlord to make candid porn of me and all his other tenants.

            • computerdork2 hours ago
              Am pretty sure he's right. I rent out my house, and it is very illegal for the landlord to record video inside the house (or even of the driveway). You are infringing the privacy of your tenants and is a huge no-no.

              Yeah, if you accidentally recorded families walking through their homes unclothed, this could land a landlord in jail.

              • wtallisan hour ago
                The contract terms could very well have actually had a meaning that included filming inside the apartment. The existence of other laws overriding the contract isn't actually the same thing as the contract not having that invasive meaning.
          • nkrisc4 hours ago
            If it didn’t say it, it doesn’t mean it.
            • 3 hours ago
              undefined
          • thayne42 minutes ago
            That is probably why it is in there, and probably how it would be used in practice. But these types of documents are almost written to be as broad and ask you to give up as many rights as possible.
          • gerdesj3 hours ago
            Thank goodness you read the contract they signed and provided competent legal expertise throughout the process.
          • smcleod4 hours ago
            Oh right, that's not so bad. Isn't that just being part of modern society? It would be nice to opt to never be recorded but also, it's outside.
      • abawany2 hours ago
        I've also read reviews of Greystar properties where the reviewers expressed shock at being forced to consent to such abuse.
      • bsder5 hours ago
        > and I am free to go away.

        This is the crux of the problem when landlords are allowed to form or join an "association" that gets too pervasive.

        This was at the heart of the RealPage lawsuits.

      • plagiarist3 hours ago
        I found some shit like that in a gym contract, which I then declined.
      • m0llusk4 hours ago
        This is basic security. Cameras around entrances, exits, and common areas have become critical for safety and preventing mail theft.
        • collingreen4 hours ago
          There is no version of basic security that extends to commercial use of your likeness in their marketing.

          Be reasonable.

    • solid_fuel5 hours ago
      > Unfortunately, especially in the US, exercising your rights, or even just reading every paper you're expected to put your name to, not only constantly pisses people off for some reason

      Yup. It's particularly sad seeing other people in this very thread talking about how they would "ban this customer for life" just for knowing their rights.

      I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now.

      • trhway4 hours ago
        >I think it's pathetic that this has become the culture amongst large swathes of Americans - especially ones who consider themselves patriotic. This country was founded in rebellion and the assertion of our rights, and somehow the exact opposite is now the ideal of many citizens now.

        DHS is putting on the domestic terrorists watch list those people who took parts in the protests. Or at minimum threatens to put. And if you google a bit more you'd see that it isn't limited to ICE. Any dissent is perceived by the current government in a similar "terrorism" way. For majority of population that would completely chill any desire to assert rights.

        https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/letter_to_dhs_on...

        "U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers and senior Trump administration officials have repeatedly suggested that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is building a “domestic terrorists” database comprising information on U.S. citizens protesting ICE’s actions in recent weeks.

        ...

        In recent weeks, DHS personnel and senior officials have repeatedly stated that the agency is engaged in efforts to monitor, catalog, and intimidate individuals engaged in peaceful protests"

        • solid_fuelan hour ago
          Oh I’m well aware.

          It’s reprehensible and I am demanding accountability from my elected politicians. The only way we’ll see someone answer for these crimes, though, is if enough Americans give a shit to get off their fucking asses and actually put people into office who will bring change.

      • treis3 hours ago
        I don't know that signing up for a rewards club and then complaining that you're being marketed to is quite the platonic ideal of rebellion you make it out to be.
  • buzer4 hours ago
    Actual decision (Norwegian): https://www.datatilsynet.no/contentassets/c8d0551d2a64403285...

    Machine translation of overview & 5.1 which is what the blog post is about (covers some other things as well): https://chatgpt.com/share/6a34732c-0fa4-83e8-aae1-95c25dd117...

    [EDIT] Oh, there was actually official English decision available as well: https://www.datatilsynet.no/contentassets/59addbef9c1b48a28f...

  • 0xfffafaCrash5 hours ago
    > The reply I received a few days later did me the favour of putting the violation on the record. Their position, in their own words, was that "in order to receive marketing / offers, it is a condition to be a member of the customer club." That one sentence is the whole case. They had taken a right I am entitled to exercise for free and turned it into the price of admission.

    I don’t understand… it would be one thing if it said “receiving marketing/offers is a condition of being a member of the customer club” but that’s not what is being stated above… rather that being a member of the club is required to receive marketing — perhaps something has been misworded or lost in translation?

    • ajb4 hours ago
      Yeah sounds like it's backwards , and should be "in order to be a member of the customer club, it is a condition to receive marketing / offers ."
      • drnick14 hours ago
        Yes this is the logical sentence order, at least in English.
    • mixdup4 hours ago
      I think the "marketing/offers" means discounts? To be eligible for the discounts or special offers, you have to be a member of the club, and if you are a member of the club you have to be willing to receive the email messages, and somehow under EU law you're entitled to all discounts I guess?
    • drdaeman5 hours ago
      Yea, I don't get it either. Receiving being a condition on membership means (in my understanding) only that non-members can't (shouldn't) receive anything, not that members will or must receive something. Which sounds perfectly normal and sane to me.
    • LearnYouALisp5 hours ago
      sounded exactly like translation error from a German-related lang.

      e.g. "to receive offers...is a condition to be in..."

  • ambicapter2 hours ago
    I understand where he's coming from, but it is still hilarious that he sued the legal entity that won the case for him, after they found the case in his favor.
    • buzeran hour ago
      What do you mean? It sounds like he is planning to sue company in question and possibly lodging complaint against Swedish DPA. Norwegian DPA is the one who found case in his favor.
      • LtdJorgean hour ago
        Yes, he doesn't have a problem with the Norwegian DPA but with the Swedish DPA which are the ones that should be in contact with him.
  • pavel_lishin6 hours ago
    The image isn't loading for me, all I see is the prompt used to generate it - which is genuinely preferable.
    • kuboble27 minutes ago
      Is it a prompt or accessibility description for screen readers?
      • cmeacham9811 minutes ago
        The website labels it as a prompt, so probably a prompt
    • QuantumNomad_5 hours ago
      For me it was showing the image and the prompt, but the whole page was unstyled. But when I reloaded the page now, the css loaded also and the prompt is not shown.

      I guess the web server was temporarily overwhelmed by traffic resulting in images (like for you) and css files (like for me) not being consistently served to all visitors.

  • Telaneo5 hours ago
    Datatilsynet, the Norwegian DPA, from my experience, consistently has the user in mind. It (sadly) takes a long time for things to pass through the system, but they consistently come to good decisions.
  • N_Lens32 minutes ago
    This article reads like “jurisprudence fetishist gets off on technicality!”

    How refreshingly European.

  • tomtom13376 hours ago
    This is extremely cool reading! I'm impressed that they actually fined Elkjøp (as they should!) but very surprised that they didn't keep you informed!

    Thank you for sharing!

  • sscaryterry4 hours ago
    This fills my heart with joy. If only ICO in the UK would do the same.
  • peaseagee6 hours ago
    And how much did it make them over those 5 years?
    • Retric5 hours ago
      The fine is only part of the story. They likely spent more money than the fine fighting it over 5 years as fines increase next time if you don’t stop.
      • coldtea5 hours ago
        And how much did it make them over those 5 years?
        • aucisson_masque5 hours ago
          You don't know how much it did cost them. Why would you care about how much they gained ? You can't compare something when you have neither value.
          • anakaine5 hours ago
            Because if, as the regulator, you fail to benchmark what they gained then your laws can be ignored and your fines paid as simply a cost of doing business.

            Its why you find the Australian regulator for consumer affairs handing out $200m+ fines to telecommunications companies, for example.

            • Retric5 hours ago
              By that logic regulators should lower fines if the action wasn’t profitable. Which creates an expensive legal fight around the net profits of some action were after guilt is determined.

              Instead, it’s much better to scale fines based on the scale of the entity involved, which also results in huge fines, but it’s easier to measure revenue. Thus the fines are more broadly effective, and you can still escalate if they don’t stop.

              • tux19685 hours ago
                Like in Finland where speeding ticket fines are based on your income. For instance, in one well known case a businessman was fined €121,000 for going 82 km/h in a 50 km/h zone.
                • dataflow4 hours ago
                  And before anyone calls this crazy, note that jail time costs you your time, whatever that's worth. This is the same idea without the physical incarceration.
                  • TurdF3rguson3 hours ago
                    Most rich people still make money when they're in jail. Only people who work for a living stop making money.
                    • Retrican hour ago
                      Rich and retired are very different thing. A CEO can be out hundreds of millions due to a long prison sentence, but most fines don’t scale nearly that far.
                • aidenn04 hours ago
                  That's considerably more than someone near me who was doing 245km/h in a 90 zone (Well 55mph which is 89km/h). I still don't know why that person didn't lose their license (other than the obvious fact that they were rich enough to afford the Lamborghini that they were driving in); it wasn't just any 55 zone, it was one with a reputation for being dangerous.
              • jmholla2 hours ago
                I don't think that logic works. In your vein, if I say " If it gets hotter, I'll want it to be colder" that would imply that if it gets colder I'll want it to be hotter. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case thought.

                If they made a profit and I want them to pay more than the base fine doesn't mean if they made a loss I want them to pay less than the base fine.

                I think the rest of your come t stands though. There is difficulty I proving profit and Hollywood accounting can probably change those numbers.

                • Retrican hour ago
                  > If they made a profit and I want them to pay more than the base fine doesn't mean if they made a loss I want them to pay less than the base fine.

                  I’m not saying they would get a rebate just that for this to be meaningful for a mid sized or larger company requires a large portion of a given fine to be based on profits. So a company receiving a fine based on their profits would argue they made less money from the behavior, it’s a legal argument without any risk.

                  Consider a fine for a mid sized company that’s base 100k + 10m based on profits it ‘goes away’ if they win but it also ‘goes away’ if they drop it by 99%. Thus just as much effort would be spent on how much money they made as is put forth to defend the fine in the first place.

                  Now obviously you could set the base large enough to offset that, but doing so defeats the point of profit based fines in the first place. Which means inherent to the idea of profit based fines is the concept they largely go away if a major company can argue their profits where non existent.

                • fc417fc8022 hours ago
                  It's not about what you want nor is it about exacting revenge. The end goal is simply a marketplace where a given behavior isn't happening. Appropriately structured fines should accomplish that.
              • 5 hours ago
                undefined
            • fc417fc8022 hours ago
              This entire issue is sidestepped by having graduated fines (which GDPR has). If they keep doing it the amount keeps going up until eventually they go out of business. It really limits the ability to take advantage of the system which hopefully makes it not worthwhile to bother doing.
  • Insimwytim3 hours ago
    There's also issue with EU companies forcing candidates to agree to their anti-privacy policies (confusingly named "privacy policies") as a requirement before the job interview.

    Those anti-privacy policies will state, that you grant the company and third-parties (so, anyone) permissions to use your data (including voice and image) for any purpose. (Of course, it is stated in a slightly obscure fashion, so a layman may not comprehend it.)

    I wonder if there has been any similar action taken against those.

    • buzer3 hours ago
      I haven't personally encountered that, but you are free to lodge complaint with your local DPA about it.

      That exact language is unlikely to be compliant. If you want to maximize your effect you could make Article 15 request to the company in question, get the list of actual recipients of data (make sure to be ask for this specifically) and then make another request to all of those companies. That will then allow you to possibly make further complaints (e.g. why exactly they didn't send Article 14 information to you, are the legal basis they use actually proper in your case especially if the original one was consent and it was not freely given).

      • Insimwytim33 minutes ago
        Wouldn't you have to "consent" first?

        What if you didn't and did not proceed with the process? Can you complain still?

        As in - if you didn't give your consent there's no violation has occurred and they don't have your data, so nothing to ask for?

  • setgree41 minutes ago
    The part about this that's amazing to me is that they still are doing nothing after he noted another GDPR violation [0]. He's obviously both competent and litigious. What does the company expect to happen next??

    [0] "Under Article 77(2) of the GDPR a supervisory authority is under a binding legal obligation to keep a complainant informed of the progress and the outcome of their complaint. It is not a courtesy and it is not discretionary - it is written into the law. I filed my complaint with IMY, IMY passed it on, the case ended in a multi-million euro enforcement action, and not one of the authorities involved thought to tell the person who started it."

  • pixelpoet5 hours ago
    Love to see this, and love our privacy and data handling laws!
  • matheusmoreiraan hour ago
    Badass. Hope this keeps happening to all of those abusive "take it or leave it" corporations.
  • ryandrake6 hours ago
    Excellent outcome. I wish we had these rights in the USA! Too bad justice took 5 years though.
  • echoangle5 hours ago
    Good to know that this is illegal. One of my email providers also does this, maybe I’ll also have to try reporting them and see what happens.
    • VorpalWay4 hours ago
      Go for it! If nobody reports things they don't get fixed.

      I have found this to be true not just when it comes to companies breaking laws, but also to much more benign things. Such as reporting potholes in town or broken microwaves at work. Those can be in need of fixing for an extended period of time, yet when I report them, they usually get fixed within days. I suspect most people can't be bothered or think that surely someone else will report the issue. But that doesn't work if everyone thinks that way.

    • TurdF3rguson2 hours ago
      EU only though. You can get away with pretty much anything outside of EU.
  • alexhans4 hours ago
    It's always satisfying when customer rights stories have a known positive outcome. The timeline is unfortunately quite slow and bureocractic but I'm glad OP managed to find out about it.
  • NooneAtAll3an hour ago
    how was 1.8M calculated?

    has any calculations been made on how much actual profit was made by these unlawful actions?

  • RobRivera5 hours ago
    Lol. Brookfield Place wifi had an OPT IN for their wifi to receive marketing.

    If you unclicked it, the 'connect to wifi' button greyed out and a notification appears saying that Opt In is required for wifi.

    • iliveinberlin4 hours ago
      Type the email address of somebody you dislike
      • josephg3 hours ago
        Yep this. They never make you verify your email address on a captive portals. (Since you can’t check your email without an internet connection in the first place).
        • whatan hour ago
          Then you could put in anything that looks like a valid email rather than the email of someone you dislike.
      • Telaneo3 hours ago
        There's always a@a.com
        • plagiarist3 hours ago
          My go-to is always their domain, if it works.
      • RobRivera2 hours ago
        THATS EXACTLY WHAT I DID mwahahaha
  • josefritzishere3 hours ago
    I wish America had real privacy laws like Norway.
  • QuantumNomad_5 hours ago
    > the only way to stop the marketing was to cancel my membership of the club altogether

    I have experienced this same thing with at least one other big company in Norway.

    I could opt out of either SMS or e-mail, but not both, or I would not be able to keep the membership.

    Unfortunately, I never made a note of which one that was exactly so I can’t name them and shame them on the spot.

    Despite half-hearted attempts at stopping marketing emails now and then by individually logging in and opting out, or clicking unsubscribe links embedded in the email, my email continues to be flooded with marketing both from domestic and foreign companies that I’ve done business with. There is so many companies that even going through a handful of them at a time and unsubscribing there is a seemingly endless amount of companies that remain to unsubscribe from.

    It is great to see that someone fights back, and that it is resulting in fines.

  • angry_octet4 hours ago
    I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for ransom I can tell you I don’t have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.
  • pixelneon5 hours ago
    Hahaha, the sticker looks really funny, but I like it.
  • kklisura4 hours ago
    GDPR is a godsend.
  • yieldcrv4 hours ago
    I’m imagining an agentic solution in everyone’s inbox that automates GDPR fines and updates
  • aaron6954 hours ago
    [dead]
  • jazz9k4 hours ago
    I'm so glad the GDPR never took hold in the US. Little Karens getting companies fined millions of dollars over what amounts to nothing.

    You can always not use their service. Plenty of alternatives out there.

    • wredcoll3 hours ago
      How depressingly unamerican.
      • solid_fuelan hour ago
        It's really pathetic, isn't it? These guys hate their fellow Americans so much that they think it's better to allow companies to abuse people instead of stepping in to protect them.
  • throw93944945 hours ago
    I wonder if anyone who are cheering this fine, actually read and tried to implement GDPR. It is a nightmare to be fully compliant for small companies.

    It is mostly just a theater (like endless cookie consent dialogs in anonymous browsing), to employ more experts and bureaucrats.

    EU is now pushing privacy laws that severely undermine privacy.

    • Telaneo3 hours ago
      I have read it. It's really easy to be compliant if don't start from a position of extracting the maximum amount of data from every user out there. If you start from the opposite end of the scale, only getting the data you need for the goals you need to achieve in the interest of the user, you barely have to do anything beyond what you would have done anyway.
    • iliveinberlin4 hours ago
      I did, it is easy, you just don't spy on people and have a point of contact and you're good. It becomes hard when you want to spy on people and also remain compliant with the no spying law.
    • DarkUraniuman hour ago
      The cookie consent dialogs were never required in this form.

      That was literally just malicious compliance in order to get people mad at the law instead of the companies (at least at first, there's also a huge amount of cargo-culting nowadays). Congrats, you've been psy-opped.

    • kentm3 hours ago
      Yes. It’s very easy actually. People think it’s hard only because they’ve built revenue streams on unethical behavior.
    • tverbeure4 hours ago
      > EU is now pushing privacy laws that severely undermine privacy.

      Even if it’s most just theater, you don’t make the case at all how it undermines privacy.

    • matheusmoreiraan hour ago
      Stop spying on people.
  • arjie4 hours ago
    It's an interesting story, but I could not help but have my mind skip over it because of the LLMisms. Acts like one of those taboola reels to me. If even just there was a tutorial to get people to write in such a way that it's not obviously LLM text it would be nice because the story is interesting.

    I know, it's like complaining about JS etc. but it's like walking into an elevator and smelling very strong perfume. It's hard not to go "whew!"

  • londons_explore5 hours ago
    If I did business in the EU, I would be banning this chap from my services on the basis that the risk he poses to the business is too great...
    • onli5 hours ago
      You would do no such thing, because if you tried, you wouldn't have a business in the EU anymore.
    • Broken_Hippo5 hours ago
      In other words, you'd ban someone because they might notice that you are doing illegal stuff and you might get caught.

      Follow the laws and it isn't an issue. I'm pretty sure banning someone for that stuff is probably illegal, too.

    • Telaneo3 hours ago
      We don't want your business in the EU if this is your attitude to things like this.
    • solid_fuel5 hours ago
      Frankly, this attitude is pathetic. Absolute loser behaviour.

      I don't think you should be doing business anywhere if customers being familiar with the law and knowing their rights scares you. Frankly if you are running a business, you should be familiar with the laws and regulations, doing otherwise - especially when someone points out that your behaviour is illegal - is negligence and punishment with a fine is completely appropriate. Welcome to living in a society.

    • dataflow4 hours ago
      The risk of getting caught doing business illegally? You really don't give a damn about the illegal part, just getting caught?
    • throw93944945 hours ago
      Just awoid some jurisdictions. Bulgaria is in EU, has all the same access, and has no time for this BS.