79 pointsby delichon5 hours ago20 comments
  • prabhasp4 hours ago
    Worth understanding the idea of a natural experiment to understand what's being studied here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_experiment
  • onlyrealcuzzo4 hours ago
    So... Let me get this straight.

    Because people who had iPhones during the AT&T exclusive period has less kids...

    They think there is no other possibly explanation besides the iPhone, because they looked at similar groups on different networks and in different areas that didn't yet have coverage for iPhones?

    It definitely couldn't have been due to richer people having iPhones and having less kids, or people preferring iPhones who weren't going to have kids anyway??

    Why definitely not? And why definitely iPhones or Smart Phones or whatever?

    • FabHK4 hours ago
      I suggest you read the abstract, at least. The fact that only AT&T had the iPhone back then resulted in a natural experiment: It was only available in certain regions. You can thus compare regions where it was available and where it wasn't, while controlling for "richer people" or "people preferring iPhones".

      As a rule of thumb, if you look at something for 3 minutes and have some obvious questions, the scientists that looked at it for several years of their life in great detail might have had those same obvious questions as well.

      • hansonkd4 hours ago
        Not to be pedantic and I agree with what you are saying but:

        > As a rule of thumb, if you look at something for 3 minutes and have some obvious questions, the scientists that looked at it for several years of their life in great detail might have had those same obvious questions as well

        This does not mean that just because they had those obvious questions that they were properly resolved. Human history has a long track record of people who knew better but chose to ignore. In science there is an incredible pressure to have positive results rather than negative ones (IE nobody would care or know about this study if the title was "we looked and iphone doesn't explain 33-52% of fertility decline"

      • makeitdouble4 hours ago
        > natural experiment: It was only available in certain regions.

        This study treats ATT doing market research and progressive rollout through prioritized markets as a "natural experiment".

        We could at least agree it's specifically chosen population, whatever ATT marketing dept had in mind when they planned the rollout.

      • virgilp4 hours ago
        That's for the good studies. Let's not pretend that all published studies are honest. Unfortunately it is quite reasonable to be skeptical about extraordinary claims such as this one.
        • rayiner4 hours ago
          It's not reasonable when the skepticism is disproven by looking at page 11 of the paper that's in the link.
        • FabHK4 hours ago
          It is reasonable to be skeptical, absolutely. But responding to a study like this with "haha what about if only rich people got iPhones" or "bro don't you know that correlation does not imply causation" is juvenile.
          • virgilp4 hours ago
            To be fair, their control variables treat the first objection (wealth), not the second (brand preference; and yeah there's some correlation but one doesn't imply the other)
    • ilija1394 hours ago
      Not every rich person got an iPhone. The rich people without an iPhone did not had equal amount of less kids. There are two groups, one has an iPhone, the other has not. The assumption is that two groups are big enough to have equal amount of people from any other group that can explain the decline in fertility, i.e. equal amount of rich/poor, educated, etc. They can control for this because they know which people had access to the iphone based on the AT&T network coverage.

      At the end of the abstract they state the likely explanation of this seemingly spurious correlation: > National-survey evidence on time use and sexual behavior is consistent with the iPhone reducing in-person interactions, increasing pornography use, and reducing sexual frequency.

      • pbhjpbhj4 hours ago
        >the iPhone reducing in-person interactions, increasing pornography use, and reducing sexual frequency.

        Why would iPhone _particularly_ do that? I can see greater social media use, greater access to porn, would do those things. But that's common to smartphones in general.

        • ilija1394 hours ago
          The iPhone was the only smartphone in 2007, and the one that they could track based on AT&T coverage.
          • mike_hearn3 hours ago
            It wasn't the only smartphone. And it's not like the internet appeared simultaneous with the iPhone. It was just a different way to get access to the same websites, back when it launched, most of which didn't support the iPhone's screen size anyway. And the only difference was that it made it easier to reach those websites ... outside. On the move. Where you are more likely to meet people.

            Their causal explanation here does not ring true in all sorts of ways. Nobody was deciding not to get married and have kids because they were too busy watching porn on an iPhone in 2007, a time when video on smartphones barely worked. Social media predated the iPhone by years. And this practice of controlling for some ad-hoc list of things and then announcing causality is a major cause of spurious false positive claims in academic science. They really should know better than to make strong claims of causality in a case like this. Sociology just isn't capable of explaining things like this no matter how many stats you throw at it.

            https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4816570/

            There's much better work out there on this topic that is less heavy on the cute regressions and more heavy on the historical analysis+common sense. It's often a lot more convincing.

    • raincole4 hours ago
      > Let me get this straight.

      Let me get this straight, I believe one needs to read a paper to get it straight.

      But I fully understand your knee-jerk reaction. That was my reaction when I read the title too. However, it seems to be a surprisingly well-thought analysis where all your points are answered (controlled).

      If I read it more thoroughly I'll likely find flaws on the statistical methods. But it's not like the authors didn't have common sense.

      Edit: unfortunately, enough people had the same knee-jerk reaction to get this thread flagged. We really need a way to vouch a thread.

    • munificent4 hours ago
      Read section 5.

      "Table 1 documents that treated counties (those with >90% AT&T 3G coverage) are substantially more urban, White, Republican-leaning, and affluent than control counties. To address this imbalance, we apply the entropy-balancing reweighting of Hainmueller (2012), which solves for the entropy-minimizing set of control-county weights that equalize the treated and reweighted-control means of a specified set of covariates."

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    • jsw974 hours ago
      Nobody at this level writes a paper like this, asserting a specific causal relationship, without considering exactly the questions you raised. The authors address your concerns. It's possible they did so poorly. But that is the case you would want to make. I'm tired of reading these low-effort takes on HN.
    • rayiner4 hours ago
      The paper has a section listing their controls, including income, poverty rate, race, etc: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w35310/w353.... It's on page 11.
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    • spwa44 hours ago
      Because correlation is not causation. If A and B correlate there's 3 options:

      1) A causes B

      2) B causes A

      3) C causes both B and A (in some order)

      4) your correlation figure is bullshit (hence not counted in the 3 options, but certainly with news these days, it must be mentioned)

      A famous way to illustrate where this goes wrong is to show a map which libraries that loaned out Harry Potter books, and a map of where poodles got raped. Very high correlation, and obviously an example of the 3rd option.

      (obviously both were caused by population density, which leads to both library creation and poodle-related crimes. And probably non-poodle-related crimes)

      • wavemode4 hours ago
        The 5th option is random chance.

        That often results from p-hacking. In a world of infinite variables, if you look hard enough you are guaranteed to eventually find two completely unrelated variables that correlate with each other over a statistically significant period of time.

        • virgilp4 hours ago
          That's the 4th option
          • wavemode4 hours ago
            I guess it could be? I interpreted what the parent commenter wrote like "the variables aren't actually correlated" (which definitely does happen sometimes)

            Whereas my point is moreso when, the variables really are correlated but it's purely due to random chance. Not bullshit, per se, just bad luck (or possibly, p-hacking).

            (Though the solution to both is the same - you shouldn't trust a study until it's been independently replicated on new data.)

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  • bel84 hours ago
    I'll bite. Maybe it's not the iPhone itself, but social media.

    I have seen studies about damages that social media can cause in behaviours. This might be one of them.

    Smartphones are the catalyst to social media consumption as we know. Like people contantly on their phones everywhere instead of interacting with other people, for example.

    • browningstreet4 hours ago
      Social media wasn't the thing it is today during the AT&T exclusive period.
      • macNchz4 hours ago
        That's the thing that jumped out to me here—iPhones themselves and everything you could actually do with one during that period were way different from today. There were effectively no endless feeds of content to consume, the phone screens were way smaller and less vibrant, push notifications only came out about halfway through.

        I was age 19-23 during that period (in the "highest impact" age group from the article), and I think I used my phone more for coordinating in-person social activity than anything else at the time. Additionally on that—iPhones were not widespread in my cohort at the time, even at an expensive private college with many students from upper income families.

    • sph4 hours ago
      Why not go further? It's the Internet as a whole. People socialising online, and online becoming an actual place people spend their entire lives within, free from the hard constraints of the real world, was the natural evolution of the Internet.

      Plenty has been written about how any technological innovation leads to massive societal changes no one could foresee, and no one could avoid, but only analyze in retrospect.

      • bel84 hours ago
        Yep. Even many of our jobs became remote and less social.
      • FabHK4 hours ago
        Indeed. When Germany unified, the birth rate in the formerly socialist East dropped by half. Certainly increasing uncertainty played a role, but there was also speculation that there wasn't much to do in the East except read, drink, and procreate, while the West had plenty of diversions.
    • trollbridge4 hours ago
      I don't remember social media really being that significant from 2007-2011.
      • wmichelin4 hours ago
        Well, it was for many. MySpace, and then BBM, Facebook, and Twitter were absolutely huge at that time for the folks using them.
  • OgsyedIE4 hours ago
    Sounds entirely accurate. Among all other technological advances, the biggest tracker of the very first wave of women's fertility decline in rural Europe in the late 1800s was access to electric lighting, which permitted rural women to make use of night hours for self-directed social, political and educational activity. (The source for this I use, although there are others, is The Subject of Virtue by Laidlaw)

    Smartphones massively reduce the barriers to entry for self-directed career-based, social, political and educational activity (plus entertainment, but gambling addicts have differing fertility patterns so lesser degrees of it are useless to study). Outside observers may consider the real-world quality of such activities to be low, but the activity they enable people to do in their many brief lulls of free time between different daily tasks do fit into those buckets more than anything else. And the cumulative effect of all of them is to delay life milestones.

  • gomox4 hours ago
    Was the AT&T monopoly period of 2007-2011 have substantial social media adoption? Seems to me like the early iPhones were just a very capable phone & texting machinery.
  • abhaynayar4 hours ago
    I've been able to quit short-form content, but does anyone have any tips on how to quit long-form content like YouTube or Netflix?

    Also, why is this flagged?

  • theonlyjesus4 hours ago
    It definitely was iPhones and not the first recession that started erasing the middle class in the United States
  • suncemoje4 hours ago
    And what does the iPhone have to do with that? What are the hypotheses? Can't tell from the abstract at least
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  • sizzzzlerz4 hours ago
    Well, with them constantly taking selfies of themselves they have no time for normal human activities
  • phyzix57614 hours ago
    There's another interesting paper that talks about how in 2007 teens shifted their socializing to the smartphone. This led to a large reduction in teen fertility, as teens would spend more time communicating digitally rather than in person[0].

    [0] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6676839

  • throwa3562624 hours ago
    You mean Instagram?
  • functionmouse4 hours ago
    • applfanboysbgon4 hours ago
      Genuinely fascinating article. I had no idea that the DDR's fertility rate dropped to 0.8 after reunification. That said, I am skeptical of the assertions. Statistics can always be used to paint misleading pictures to support any narrative you like. For example, it neglects to mention that, according to the same source it links to show the birthrate dropped after reunification, that DDR's fertility rate was already down to 1.5 beforehand, well below replacement level. That strikes me as something of a lie by omission.

      The emphasis on "it takes a village" seems strangely misplaced, as well. It presumes that culture is so malleable that a shift in government policy can change the culture overnight. Have East Germans completely abandoned their supposed previous culture of taking care of relatives/neighbors children after the fall? If there was a genuine cultural difference in communally raising children, and that was meant to improve fertility rates, you would expect to see higher fertility rates reflected regardless of the current government policy.

    • ch4s34 hours ago
      Ahh yes, Russian fertility was famously… lackluster in the Soviet period. So clearly capitalism caused fertility to decline.
  • pembrook4 hours ago
    This garbage "research" being on the front page of HN without getting flagged is a good indication we've reached peak irrationality in the current smartphone moral panic.

    About time we revisted this: https://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

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  • muizelaar4 hours ago
    "The fertility drop is concentrated among young populations and largely operates through declines in unintended births (Buckles et al., 2025), suggesting the operative margin may be less about the cost of raising a child and more about whether the relationships and sexual activity that produce children are forming at all."
  • fleahunter4 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • skynotblue5 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • ilija1394 hours ago
      Every person after taking just one 101 statistics course tells everyone "correlation doesn't equal causation". But here, in the abstract is clear:

      > National-survey evidence on time use and sexual behavior is consistent with the iPhone reducing in-person interactions, increasing pornography use, and reducing sexual frequency.

    • josefritzishere4 hours ago
      10/10 comment.
      • coldtea3 hours ago
        More like knee-jerk 1/10 reaction comment. See the sibling comment for why
  • Shalomboy4 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • hodder4 hours ago
    "Entropy-balanced Poisson and synthetic difference-in-differences event studies"

    LMAO does the author really take themselves seriously as they type that.

    This author has no understanding of statistical methods. This sort of article is the reason why people distrust science. Not because the scientific method is flawed, but rather because nonsense like this get published.

    • dahart4 hours ago
      What exactly is the problem with that sentence? Are you sure the problem isn’t that you don’t understand what it means?

      Here are a few links explaining the terms:

      https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7384548/

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_regression

      https://lost-stats.github.io/Model_Estimation/Research_Desig...

      I don’t know why people distrust science. Sure, it’s not perfect, and scientists, like all people are subject to human problems. But there’s nothing else in the history of the world with a better track record than science. I feel like the problem is that some politicians spread FUD and prey on people’s insecurities, and unfortunately it tends to work, disproportionately on people with less resources. The problem isn’t science at all; the problem is people and politics.

      • hodder4 hours ago
        I know what a linear regression is and how to examine event studies, lol. What you don't understand is that the author is leaning on linguistics to insinuate strong evidence of causation where it doesn't exist. If this was a quant in finance, they'd be out the door in days.

        "The problem isn’t science at all; the problem is people and politics."

        Agree completely.

        • dahart4 hours ago
          > the author is leaning on linguistics

          Please elaborate. I haven’t used entropy balancing or difference in differences, but those articles explain that their purpose is to try to tease out causation. What - exactly - is the linguistic trick, if they actually did use an entropy balanced Poisson regression and difference of differences?

          • hodder3 hours ago
            Entropy balancing cannot fix unobserved confounders.

            "Teasing out causation" is exactly why this methodology fails. You are confusing the intended purpose of a statistical tool with its real-world validity. No one is questioning what an Entropy-Balanced Poisson Regression or a Synthetic Difference-in-Differences model is designed to do.

            The issue is that the authors have profoundly violated the mathematical assumptions required for these tools to actually function. Throwing high-level econometric terms into an abstract does not make the underlying logic scientific, but rather acts as a linguistic tuxedo on a fundamentally broken causal claim.

            If you cannot see through economic (and other) confounders that invalidate their approach and their biased statements, I cannot help you. This isn't science. Getting an LLM to run an SDID model and spit out a result doesn't = science.

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