94 pointsby keyle6 hours ago23 comments
  • nrabulinski5 minutes ago
    It’s always obvious that people here comment only after reading the headline, and sometimes other comments, but this comment section makes it particularly clear.
  • 0xbadcafebee5 hours ago
    > I wish we had just left Terry well enough alone.

    That would help Drew, but not Terry. Terry would remain on his own to struggle in silence, but Drew could sleep soundly without noticing him.

    There've been many outsider artists over the years ("Artistry of the Mentally Ill", (c) 1922) whose schizophrenia has led them to lead tragic lives. But they also created amazing art that is celebrated around the world. I do wish Terry had gotten better treatment, and I'm also glad he gifted us with his art.

    • delusional4 hours ago
      The text already responds to this concern

      > The press and fan attention was deeply harmful to Terry and likely exacerbated his mental illness.

      I don't know if that's true, if Terry would be better off, had the internet not found him entertaining. I also don't know if this is an internet phenomenon, or if we haven't always poked and prodded at the "different".

      What I do know is that Drew thinks Terry had it worse because of this attention.

      • vidarh2 hours ago
        I don't know what attention he got on 4chan, but here he was shadow banned (rightly so; his comments were frequently full of slurs and more), and quite a few people had showdead on in part to see his comments (me included) because they occasionally let through things that were worth it. I think that was perhaps a reasonable middle ground. He wasn't on full display, and it avoided some of the worse responses he'd have gotten if his comments had been on full display to people who had not explicitly chosen to see them, but TempleOS was and is also fascinating separate from his mental illness and legitimate to post about here.
      • narrator4 hours ago
        > The press and fan attention was deeply harmful to Terry and likely exacerbated his mental illness.

        The article writer turned his normative beliefs about the situation into prescriptive mental health advice.

    • SturgeonsLaw3 hours ago
      Not just outsider artists either, Vincent van Gogh is one of the most widely known artists in history and he was dealing with increasingly severe mental health episodes over the years. A large amount of his art was produced while in varying states of psychosis. Starry Night was painted in an asylum.
  • avaer5 hours ago
    What about the "circus freaks" that get funding, influencers that maintain audience support, or those who get elected to office?

    I don't understand how to tell the difference, other than what society and the media collectively judges to be genius versus disordered, and where the money accrues.

    The people and their personalities are not all that different, other than how palatable/sellable they are.

    That's not to say this isn't a real problem; I think the scale of it is much larger than people realize, because society often sees these same personality disorders as something to be rewarded.

    • ndsipa_pomu42 minutes ago
      The difference is the person's wealth or the wealth of the people who want to push that agenda.

      I like to compare the treatment of the extremely wealthy with extreme hoarders. Someone who fills their house with piles of e.g. magazines/newspapers, will be recognised as having mental problems. Meanwhile if someone keeps pursuing the gain of more wealth after they have far more money than can ever be spent, then typically society will fawn over them and respect their opinions, no matter how distasteful or outright wrong they are.

  • Fizz432 hours ago
    Its not up to any of us to be able to stop or police this behavior. It doesnt come from our community even if a subset of those users overlap. I can run the most strict community where this behavior is stomped out but users can still create a KF account and partake in this behavior elsewhere. Ultimately people should not open themselves up to the internet if they are sensitive to these results. There are very cruel people who will dedicate their lives to destroying you but the target need to keep feeding them.

    Most people already understand and empathize with people going through a mental health crisis and dont provoke them.

  • roenxi5 hours ago
    > I often see that people who I otherwise respect and recognize as allies and kindred spirits are participating in these rituals of humiliation, harassment, and voyeurism. I don’t think it’s right to gossip over or sensationalize the mental health crises faced by members of our communities.

    This paragraph tickles me. Superficially, someone who I respect but for the humiliation, harassment and voyeurism is maybe not someone I would consider myself a kindred spirit with. Particularly once the word harassment starts becoming appropriate. Respecting them or making them an ally of convenience, perhaps.

    But communities have a minimum standard of behaviour. People who fall below that standard need to be ostracised, people who meet the standard have to be tolerated. The dynamic requires people with mental health problems to be ostracised with some regularity otherwise the community would collapse. There isn't much of an alternative. Before they are ostracised they need to be subjected to humiliation rituals and a certain level of voyeurism as the community affirms where the social boundaries are. If there are bad actors (which there inevitably are) it may be necessary to harass them.

    So I suppose I'm more comfortable with the paragraph than a superficial read of it would suggest, but it contains a delicate sentiment. Especially harassment, which is one of those socially nuclear options that should be used in truly rare and exceptional cases with appropriate concern for the second order effects on behaviour. It is better to just not associate with people who use it with enthusiasm.

    > This is a difficult topic to write about. By writing about these specific examples, am I sensationalizing them? Disrespecting the privacy of the people I’m writing about? Participating in the circus myself?

    Yeah, absolutely. It is part of the urge to help set the community standard of what behaviour is and isn't acceptable and to decide when various defence mechanisms to protect the community should be used. That impulse is at its core exactly where the voyeurism is coming from. How else will the community come to understand what the otherwise vague boundaries are? People are intensely interested in what the mob will do to them when angered and what the exact boundary line is to trigger that response.

    The way to actually fight the circus is to have clear boundaries established beforehand. It isn't ever going to completely tamp down on the phenomenon, but there isn't much spectacle if there is a predictable response to a predictable action. English common law does an excellent job in this regard (not perfect, but as far as I know best of class). Notably it strives to avoid harassment and humiliation as tactics with frequent success.

    • kruffalon3 hours ago
      Fantastic comment, thanks.

      In my opinion this is a much greater variable than lions for our fight, flight, fawn response that is used to explain stress.

      The explanation is that we are evolved to stress about lions, but there are no lions (in most of our lives) so the stress is irrational and should be ignored or sidestepped.

      My theory is that we are more stressed and struggle more with mental health because we, in our modern societies, are part of many more groups. And the rules for inclusion are stricter since every group has to define themselves against all the other groups.

      So what really happens is that our bodies react as intended to the available stimulus of all the groups we instinctively want to be part of.

      There are just too many groups.

      I don't have any solutions, just a theory that helps me navigate my life.

    • zozbot234an hour ago
      > But communities have a minimum standard of behaviour. People who fall below that standard need to be ostracised, people who meet the standard have to be tolerated. The dynamic requires people with mental health problems to be ostracised

      We should not equate mental health problems in a general sense with outright anti-social behavior, these are very different issues. Moreover, the appropriate way of addressing anti-social behavior does not involve harassing the supposed bad actor; such harassment is counterproductive, since it tends to drive away the very best contributors while having the opposite effect on the worst (since they now have a ready-made excuse for behaving badly). 'Calling out' bad behavior sometimes happens, but this should be done in a polite and restrained way.

      (As far as the example in the OP goes, my guess is that people feel free to poke fun at Kent's seeming AI psychosis because they interpret it as a case of intentional trolling; they don't really think Kent is expressing sincere, actually held beliefs about his AI girlfriend.)

  • InfiniteRand6 hours ago
    This reminds me of actors or entertainers who clearly are going through a manic phase that is veering towards psychosis or a crash.

    Sometimes leave Britney alone means actually leave her alone.

    • InsideOutSanta2 hours ago
      The irony of the "leave Britney alone" guy is that he was the only person who was correct, and then himself became a target of the brutal attention and ridicule aimed at Britney Spears.
    • ndsipa_pomu41 minutes ago
      The entertainment business (especially Hollywood) has always been guilty of exploiting artists and then throwing them away when they're no longer bankable.
  • comex5 hours ago
    I worry that this post is itself the type of sensationalized gossip it condemns.
    • bertman4 hours ago
      The author addresses exactly this in the postscript of his article.
      • serf3 hours ago
        "I did my best" comes across as exceedingly hollow when the post itself is :

        1) : 'circus freaks of open source' isn't some clever pun or double entendre; it's just a jab.

        and

        2) : "Hey everyone , this list of folks have troubles, let's talk about them by name and make a gentleman's pact not to bother them while we analyze the meta situation of 'people with troubles' more broadly!"

        "Let's not bother this <full name of person>, internet!" is about the most naive net take one could imagine. If you need to make an example, or use a person as an example, at least try to anonymize the premise and identity.

        If your doctor got an ig nobel for his pioneering technique for removing cucumbers from patients' rectums you'd be damned sure you'd prefer a Bob and Jane style anecdote rather than full name credit and a press interview as a frontier patient.

        Yeah, Terry is long gone. Other folks aren't. Let's not pretend we're all just unwitting spectators here, and let's not ascribe fault or reasons behind Terry's tragic end.

        • InsideOutSanta2 hours ago
          I took the "circus freaks" line as a jab at the audience, not the performers.
    • analognoise4 hours ago
      It’s okay when they do it, because they’re wagging a finger at all of us bad people for being voyeurs, promoted by our stochastic ringleader to throw peanuts. They’re pure, we’re not. Also, some stuff about society collapsing.
  • 2 hours ago
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  • lkt2 hours ago
    Drew should include himself on that list, he’s earned it.
  • jakemanger3 hours ago
    This would make a nice documentary, or at least a nice little youtube vid
  • themafia5 hours ago
    > The press and fan attention was deeply harmful to Terry and likely exacerbated his mental illness.

    What are you basing this on? Did you know him? This person you call a "circus freak?"

    > Whenever TempleOS or Terry came up online

    Which was often because Terry himself made an effort to live stream his work and his opinions on computing. Which this author seems to have missed is those strong opinions were shared by a large segment of his fanbase. What made Terry unique is that he put his effort where his rhetoric was. He was out to prove something, and, largely, he did.

    > voyeuristic sensation of witnessing his mental illness through TempleOS.

    Terry famously refused help. A large number of people over the years reached out in an effort to improve his situation and give him the help they thought he might need. He didn't want it.

    > I wish we had just left Terry well enough alone.

    I just wish Terry had gotten some help and I wish he was still with us. He died alone and that makes me incredibly sad. I cannot appreciate anything this author is trying to say. It seems to me he's the voyeur and is using this opportunity to stand on a grave to chastise the crowd. I find _that_ sick.

    • JuniperMesosan hour ago
      And these qualities are hardly unique to Terry Davis - there are lots of people with untreated mental illnesses who refuse help and end up living the kind of wandering, homeless lifestyle that risks their own lives, as well as the lives and property of other people they may come into contact with. Terry Davis was just also internet-famous for his esoteric operating system.

      There's no non-coercive way to treat a mentally ill person who doesn't want to be treated. I am in favor of treating some mentally ill people coercively regardless, in cases where the mental illness puts other people at risk of harm. But I don't claim that this is primarily for their benefit.

  • saint_yossarian5 hours ago
    Oh I thought this was going to be about Bun.
  • bigstrat20034 hours ago
    I have to disagree with the characterization of TempleOS. Perhaps other hobby operating systems have more impressive design (though it must be said that many do not), but that glosses over that it is a serious accomplishment to get a working operating system off the ground. Even if TempleOS is one of the worst hobby OSes out there, that still makes it one of the more impressive individual programming efforts out there.
  • LAC-Tech3 hours ago
    Say what you will about Terry Davis, he was never into loli porn - unlike the author.
    • illright3 hours ago
      I don't find it appropriate to make these kinds of assumptions about the author. It's okay to disagree, but it would help the conversation if you elaborated why you didn't enjoy the article
      • boomer_joe2 hours ago
        Not an assumption - https://dmpwn.info/
        • illright2 hours ago
          It's a good thing I found his personal statement about this report before I found the report itself — https://drewdevault.com/blog/Addressing-harassment/

          Having read both now, I'm willing to take him at his word and accept his apology for the heinous things he has said in the past. I encourage people to read his statement to get a perspective for both sides and make up their mind

          That said, I still find the original comment I responded to inappropriate, I believe it derails a genuine conversation about how we treat problematic people with mental illnesses

          • nixon_why698 minutes ago
            But it's in the context of him compiling a dossier to hang Stallman for things he said in the past, without giving Stallman any sort of grace for being clearly neurodivergent.

            I wouldn't hang someone for old ill-advised reddit comments and I wouldn't hang Stallman for being weird. I certainly wouldn't do it and then write a blog post about kindness to these poor souls.

          • LAC-Tech2 hours ago
            [flagged]
      • LAC-Tech2 hours ago
        He called a mentally ill man who died a tragic death "a circus freak".

        It's unreasonable to post an article like that then ask us to speak politely about him.

        • illright2 hours ago
          I didn't read the title of the article in that way, and I believe it to be a bad-faith reading.

          I understood the title to mean "the people in FOSS whom we treat with the same morbid curiosity and provokation as the mentally ill people and other deviants who used to be displayed in circuses for other people's entertainment".

          It's also clear to me from the text of the article that Drew does not hold contempt for neither of the two individuals he talks about, and the postscript demonstrates that he approaches this difficult topic with due diligence and respect for the people

  • 5 hours ago
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  • rcdwealth2 hours ago
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  • stefantalpalaru5 hours ago
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  • KennyBlanken3 hours ago
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  • wartywhoa235 hours ago
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  • boomer_joe4 hours ago
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    • InsideOutSanta2 hours ago
      He acknowledges his own situation in the post. I also don't think it's helpful to ridicule or attack people for growing and changing their minds.
  • Gjfeyj3 hours ago
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  • Michelangelo114 hours ago
    The salient thing to me here is that their art kind of just crashed and burned (at least, I conclude so based on the post -- this is the first time I've heard of either of these people), and mental illness does not seem to have had any positive effect on it.