113 pointsby tosh7 hours ago6 comments
  • mcherm6 hours ago
    Nicely done!

    I always felt that Python's "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." was a bit of a mess.

    Obviously (to anyone who was around at the time), that plank was written in response to Perl's motto: "There is more than one way to do it."

    Zig's original take on this, "Only one obvious way to do things" seems even worse. You see, both languages agree that Perl had it wrong: it is unhelpful to have several different ways to write any future. But they went a little too far: it is not actually bad for it to be possible to write the same thing in more than one way.

    Zig's new phrasing: "There is an idiomatic way to do it." captures the CORRECT alternative to Perl's motto. It is not important that there be no alternative ways of writing something, Rather, it is important that there be a single idiomatic way to write it.

    • brakl4 hours ago
      This is a losing proposition. Because just like in Python, it may also generate endless debates on "ok, but what exactly is the idiomatic way for this particular thing here"? Is it A, or B, or maybe C? Since many are always possible, each optimizing for slightly different things, like simplicity, or maintainability, or performance, or readability, or coverage, etc. Groups may form furiously asserting that the idiomatic way must be C, others defending B, or A, and for what. Why does it matter? A young language free from cruft, after a long history of various decisions that led it on certain paths, can boldly claim such nonsense, but makes one wonder how it may look in 30 or 40 years, when other languages/ecosystems will point at its mistakes. Arguably Perl had it right all along, it's just a simple fact of life, expressed in such a generic manner that there is no need to fight it, since it's obviously true. Python's retort at the time was just clever marketing (aka lies), that worked (fooled a lot of people), it targeted Perl specifically just because that was the main competition back then.
      • TylerE3 hours ago
        Because something bad might happen in 30 years is not the reason to make sure it happens in three...
      • Chris20483 hours ago
        Are you a Perl dev?
    • Fraterkes6 hours ago
      I think people criticize that line in the zen of Python because Python has now become very maximalist. On it's own merits, I think "There should be one obvious way to do it" is much better, less clunky, than "There is an idiomatic way to do it".

      Also, importantly, the Zen of Python is kinda written as a set of ideas that Python should aspire to ("there should be one obvious way to do it") instead of a sales pitch of Python's merits. I prefer that.

    • kgwxd4 hours ago
      The correct alternative is to make no motto at all. It's code. Makes computer go brrr.
      • moron4hire3 hours ago
        Yeah, I actually don't care how other people program in the languages I'm using. Give me all the ways to do things. I'll make my own choices, thank you.
        • embedding-shape3 hours ago
          Someone cooked up a language just like this ages ago, and today it's one of the most popular languages on the planet! Unfortunately, in modern times people don't like to write/code in this language, so they built some beast on top of it which is the de facto standard right now. But you can still write JavaScript, and you can avoid all the shit parts like "classes" and what not, do classic prototype-style programming, or even layer your own functional/OOP programming on top. Not much you cannot do in JavaScript, probably only a lisp would enable more programming paradigms, but for mainstream languages, it's as close as you can get to True Freedom.
  • Panzerschrek3 hours ago
    > Resource allocation may fail

    Yes it can. But it's nearly impossible to handle such cases properly. That's why checking each allocation manually is a bad idea. Other languages do this better - they provide nice abstractions, but if something fails, the language runtime terminates the process. The result is the same, but has much less friction.

    Also on some systems (like Linux) memory allocation may not fail, but the "allocated" memory may not be available and a program can crash accessing this memory.

    • lionkor3 hours ago
      Zig is in the space of languages where an abstraction that decides that memory allocations are irrecoverable is not good enough.

      If you work in an environment where memory allocations can't fail or can't be handled if they fail, you might not want to use Zig, or C for that matter. Not every language should be designed to live in the space of "somehow low level but also a good choice for your basic web backend", like Rust.

      • kibwenan hour ago
        Rust doesn't stop you from checking if memory allocation has failed. Its libstd provides many operations that don't bother to surface memory allocation failure (for the reasons given above), but that's why Rust provides a libcore that does no allocation, while continually working to push more things down from libstd into libcore, while providing alternative APIs in libstd to let you handle allocation failure if you know you actually need to.
        • Zambyte35 minutes ago
          Conversely, Rust doesn't force you to explicitly handle if memory allocation failures. The least you can do in Zig is explicitly ignore allocation failures.
      • Panzerschrek2 hours ago
        > If you work in an environment where memory allocations can't fail or can't be handled if they fail, you might not want to use Zig,

        It's most of environments. Basically any program running under a modern OS. So, why do this language exists, if its practical applicability is so small?

        • Zambyte38 minutes ago
          This language exists so you can reuse the same code in environments where memory allocations may fail, and where memory allocations can't fail.

          Let's say you write an application that runs as a Unix daemon in Zig. Later you may decide that your application is really the only thing you're interested in running on the target machine, and for performance and predictability reasons, you'd prefer to boot directly to your application, instead of to an OS that launches your daemon. You can just swap out the implementation of the std.Io runtime for one that targets the hardware directly, instead of a Unix. You don't have to make any changes to your application.

          That's kind of an extreme case, but it's the kind of flexibility Zig provides.

          • Panzerschrek6 minutes ago
            > This language exists so you can reuse the same code in environments where memory allocations may fail, and where memory allocations can't fail.

            In my hypothetical example of a language where allocation fails aren't exposed it's possible too. An allocation fail just triggers a full system reboot.

        • lionkoran hour ago
          On modern OSs you can write Zig and just ignore allocation errors. It doesn't force you to handle them properly.

          This language exists to supercede or supplement C, not JavaScript or C#.

          It's practical applicability is similar to that of C, so I struggle to comprehend how it is "so small".

          • Panzerschrek9 minutes ago
            > On modern OSs you can write Zig and just ignore allocation errors.

            I can ignore errors, but I still need to free memory manually if I want to avoid memory leaks. Languages like C++ or Rust have destructors, which do the job for me.

            > This language exists to supercede or supplement C

            There are way better alternatives, like Rust. Even C++ is better.

    • Laremere2 hours ago
      Several things:

      * There are many useful ways to handle it properly, and your choice depends on your program's constraints. The very small amount of friction (once you're used to it) encourages you to consider what ways to handle it are viable, such as allocating all memory at startup.

      * If your strategy is to crash immediately, there is very little additional friction but you get the benefit of it being obvious in your code that this is the case.

      * There are environments where memory allocation fails immediately, including if you turn off over-commit on Linux. If your hardware is dedicated to running a high reliability system, configuring it in this way is reasonable.

      * Memory is not the only resource. Indeed, removing the special call out is what changed here. That different resources are handled with the same mechanism (errors, instead of eg returning null from malloc) is good.

      • Panzerschrek2 hours ago
        Autors of Zig did a choice for me. I can't use RAII in it. In C++ it's better - when I don't care, I just use standard library containers, when I do care, I can bypass them.
    • ozgrakkurt2 hours ago
      You might have a limited budget per incoming request in a http server for example. Then you want all of the code that http handler calls to be able to handle an error of type something like OutOfMemory.

      This is a very good ability to have in an application like a database.

      • Panzerschrek2 hours ago
        Such things should be solved in more nice way, not by manually checking every allocation. Like via lightweight threads, with each of them having their own memory and a scheduler, which kills threads exceeding their memory limit.
        • ozgrakkurt16 minutes ago
          This compilicates things more compared to functions returning Result<>.

          You also get locality benefits from bump style allocators. And you don't need SmallVec or similar optimization containers. And you also avoid mental overhead of managing many allocations in your head (or using a language with borrow checking).

          • Panzerschrek11 minutes ago
            > This compilicates things more compared to functions returning Result<>.

            Checking each Result in a large program is more complicated than having a runtime library handling memory limits properly.

            > And you also avoid mental overhead of managing many allocations in your head

            That's exactly what languages like Zig force you to do, compared to something like C++ or Rust.

            > or using a language with borrow checking

            borrow checking gives memory safety. It's also important to have.

    • underdeserver3 hours ago
      Nearly impossible in some contexts, where the trade-off makes sense.

      There are many scenarios, especially in embedded systems, where it can happen and you want to handle it robustly, e.g. by evicting a cache or flushing a buffer to disk.

      • Panzerschrek2 hours ago
        In embedded systems you have enough control. But as soon as an OS is involved, you have much less control. Basically an OS may do with your process whatever it wants, but it happens to be polite most of the time.
  • Validark6 hours ago
    Glad to see "Together we serve the users" come back. I miss the old Zig readme that said Zig comes with an MIT license and a humble request to build software that serves the users.
    • JakobJK6 hours ago
      It was already there though.
    • ulbu4 hours ago
      the green is from moving the line
      • nurumaik3 hours ago
        actually, they added exclamation
        • Zambyte32 minutes ago
          They moved it out of the bullet list in the CLI version, and added it to the web version.
  • alberth3 hours ago
    OT: any word on how Codeberg has been working out for Zig?
  • rowbin6 hours ago
    I'm out of the loop. Is there any context? Can't pick up on what really changed here.
    • dgellow6 hours ago
      The link shows the exact diff
      • rowbin6 hours ago
        I saw what changed syntactically. I meant I don't really understand what changed semantically. And whether there is any context to why the change was necessary.
        • dgellow6 hours ago
          The commit message feels clear to me? It seems Andrew wanted to clean the zig zen slightly, it’s not a big change:

          > - rewordings

          > - "memory is a resource" goes without saying

          > - emphasize the final point

          • frde_me4 hours ago
            I'm guessing the parent is wondering why this is noteworthy enough to be posted and discussed in this thread, and so if there's context they are missing
            • Izmaki3 hours ago
              I'm wondering the same: why is this change significant enough to reach the frontpage on Hacker News?
              • dgellowan hour ago
                Someone felt that was interesting and submitted it. People noticed Zig and upvoted. That would be my guess
  • melon_tusk5 hours ago
    I don't see how Zig will ever contend with Odin, Jai, C3 and others when they drive away half of the prospective users with activism.
    • norman7844 hours ago
      I recommend you to watch Andrew Kelly interview[0], while I'm not the target audience of Zig, I don't see him driving away any user. Also Jai as for now is a non existing language, just a selected few has access to it, but Jai approach is a kitchen sink, from what I saw it is all over the place in terms of features, now Zig vision feels cohesive.

      [0] https://youtu.be/iqddnwKF8HQ

      • jraph2 hours ago
        Thanks for sharing that link. That guy seems so nice, quite inspiring.
    • jordand5 hours ago
      Activism as in their move away from GitHub? Andrew K recently said in the JetBrains interview that because of moving away, their CI/CD now actually works.
    • dom965 hours ago
      What activism is that?
      • kristoff_it5 hours ago
        trying to make good software :^)
        • quarkz145 hours ago
          truly a tragedy! how dare you make good software!?!
      • IshKebab5 hours ago
        I think they banned AI and moved from GitHub to Codeberg. They don't seem too controversial to me, and IMO they've already comprehensively trounced Odin, Jai and C3.
      • sgt5 hours ago
        I've never seen any activism from the Zig crowd (I assume you need Woke and rubbing "pride" or "Ukraine" into everything). Did I miss something?
        • midnight_eclair5 hours ago
          > I assume you need Woke and rubbing "pride" or "Ukraine" into everything

          wow, what a self report

    • Yokohiii3 hours ago
      Jai isn't even available publicly. The license isn't decided. Jonathan Blow doesn't want to deal with open source.

      Comparing Jai and Zig on that behalf is crazy.

      Edit: If that is about political activism it's even more crazy. A dude that rambles about woke stuff is political as well. Maybe just aligns with yours.

    • ulbu4 hours ago
      Excuse me, but I think zig grows ever better from driving away users who are driven away by flashy headlines and whatever is the opposite of this “activism” you suggest.
    • logicchains5 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • Permik5 hours ago
        I'm not sure that if this is an obvious question that has been gone through already, but have any of the death threats relating to Rust stuff actually been "verified" or is it just an opinion that has been repeated enough times until it has been accepted as truth?

        Just the open amount of discontent towards the language and the community, creates the perfect storm for a malicious individual to pose being a Rust developer that sends death threats for doing things that are not aligned with the values of the language/community.