172 pointsby CharlesWan hour ago37 comments
  • EastLondonCoder7 minutes ago
    I think the really dangerous part here is not just “surveillance bad”.

    It is that AI removes the labour cost that used to limit surveillance.

    CCTV was already a problem, but someone still had to watch it, search it, interpret it, escalate it. AI changes that. It makes surveillance searchable, scalable and administratively useful. The shift is from “you may be observed” to “your behaviour can be continuously machine-interpreted”.

    That changes the moral shape of the state.

    A democracy can have police, courts, borders, audits, fraud detection, and public order. I don’t think the serious argument is that no one should ever be watched. The question is asymmetry.

    A free society cannot survive if ordinary citizens become more transparent to the state and its contractors than the state is to them.

    The principle should be:

    privacy for persons, transparency for power.

    Police bodycams should make police accountable. Procurement should be inspectable. Algorithmic decisions should have audit trails. Whistleblowers and journalists should be protected. Public systems should be legible to the public.

    What worries me is not only some cartoon version of Orwell. It is the boring version: safety dashboards, risk scores, fraud detection, productivity analytics, immigration enforcement, “trust and safety”, compliance automation, procurement contracts.

    The boot does not always arrive as a boot. Sometimes it arrives as infrastructure.

    And the hard question is not whether surveillance can create order. It obviously can. So can a prison.

    The question is whether it creates accountable power afterwards.

    A panopticon may produce “best behaviour”, but only by turning citizens into managed subjects. I have been trying to understand this fetish for controlling people through coercion that seems so prevalent in certain new modern business contexts, like amazon warehouse workers and delivery employees.

    The only thing it creates is resentment. Is that how you want to build a company or society on. Resentment?

    • bobson381a few seconds ago
      It's essentially the TVtropes Fascist but Inefficient, but it takes out the grunt work.[1]

      The other thing that comes to mind here is Brazil, the movie directed by Terry Gilliam - the inefficiency of the state is part of what makes it evil because it mostly doesn't care if it gets stuff wrong - I wonder how machine intelligence may change that.

      [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FascistButIneffi...

    • quantified2 minutes ago
      Maybe not "you", but how motivated are you to be in control? Not as much as those who angle for the CEO and board chair roles, or to be kingmakers, or to run for various offices. And they very much tolerate being feared.
  • shawnhermans28 minutes ago
    What really gets to me is how big tech isn't even pretending anymore to serve society. They clearly feel superior to the rest of us and entitled to rule.
    • breve7 minutes ago
      Bryan Cantrill warns, "Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn. You stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- the lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, the lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle.":

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=1981s

      • afavour3 minutes ago
        Eh. That quote conflates Ellison and Oracle and I don't think that's correct. I think there's a danger in just accepting that a human being is abhorrent. It _should_ outrage us that Ellison is the way he is. It's silly to think "the lawnmower hates me" because it isn't capable of hate. Ellison is capable of hate and it's not deluded to think he might hate you and I and want to control our lives.
        • brevea few seconds ago
          You've fallen into the trap.
    • Georgelemental20 minutes ago
      I think some of that is just Larry Ellison
      • epistasis5 minutes ago
        Some, but definitely not just him.

        Bezos' recent CNBC interview was enough of a kick in the nuts to finally get me to migrate off of AWS last weekend.

      • TwoNineA15 minutes ago
        You mean ...

        One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison?

        • analognoise9 minutes ago
          The asshole rot in tech goes much deeper than just Larry Ellison.
      • jasonvorhe17 minutes ago
        And Google, Meta, etc. None of the big companies habe your interests at heart.
        • jstummbillig11 minutes ago
          What a strange thing to say. Why would they? Do you have their interest at heart? Do you have the average persons interest at heart? Again: Why would you? That's by definition not how interests work. And that is roughly fine (albeit a kinder universe would be nice).
          • saghm8 minutes ago
            Even if I have no one's best interest but my own at heart, I can't do anywhere close to as much damage to society at large as a trillion dollar corporation. Also, corporations aren't people, and it's silly to compare individuals to massive organizations.
          • RC_ITR9 minutes ago
            >Why would you?

            Because the fundamental building block of society (which we are losing rapidly) is some amount of care for your fellow person.

            Your comment is a great example of how we Prisoner's Dilemma'ed ourselves into a world of isolation and decaying institutions.

      • giancarlostoro16 minutes ago
        There's definitely people who blindly praise and romanticize China and ignore how dystopian all the monitoring systems there are, there is essentially no privacy. Even chat apps are infiltrated or Chinese run in some way, shape, or form.
        • squidsoup8 minutes ago
          While that’s true, the Chinese government does also seem to be motivated to keep the cost of housing and food low for its citizens, and provide services and facilities for the public good.
        • Matl8 minutes ago
          I am not endorsing what China is doing in terms of surveillance by any means, but their argument would be that every nation not subservient to the US got overthrown by CIA backed forces the moment they opened up.

          The surveillance tech that is much more likely to be deployed in the US and that few are talking about is Israeli tech used to spy on and suppress the self determination of Palestinians. Especially given the recently proposed fusing of US/Israeli military tech.

        • pasquinelli11 minutes ago
          usually people romanticize china when they're comparing it to the united states. are chat apps in the US not infiltrated or run by america?
    • voxleone4 minutes ago
      There is an implicit disbelief in human, liberated and civilized by technology, acting civilly by choice and just because it is the right thing to do.
    • an0malous15 minutes ago
      Power corrupts. It’s one of the most predictable effects throughout human history.

      It’s interesting because it doesn’t seem like it needs to be intrinsic to power, and yet every time someone gains it they eventually become corrupt.

      • thot_experiment11 minutes ago
        It's so frustrating because even the notionally good actors look at this and think "yeah but it's not gonna corrupt me"

        No you fuck, the only way to walk the good path is to give up power and never let it concentrate again.

        Larry Ellison of course is one of the most anti human people on the planet and I doubt he was ever anything else.

        • bodge50005 minutes ago
          The real question is whether the threshold before it causes irreversible corruption is before or after the point where you can make real change. The latter is obviously quite terrifying as it essentially means that democracy will always be corrupt (unless time is a factor perhaps)
    • FireBeyond4 minutes ago
      The way he phrases it makes it clear he doesn't consider himself or his peers as part of the "citizenry". I suppose subjects or peasants or peons might have been a bit too on the nose, even for him.
    • bpodgursky21 minutes ago
      If you frame it this way in your mind you will be surprised when people pick surveillance over public disorder. If you don't like that world (I don't either) you can't bury your head in the sand about the problems it is solving, you need a "No, but... " framing where you give answers that actually work.

      There is a ground-level appeal of the China-style panopticon because it delivers public order and clean streets. Larry didn't just buy his way to digital dictator by bribing the right people, it answers a question in a way other people are avoiding, because answering it requires a lot of work and uncomfortable tradeoffs.

      • datsci_est_20154 minutes ago
        > There is a ground-level appeal of the China-style panopticon because it delivers public order and clean streets.

        Does it? Japan is also famously clean, so maybe it’s the ethnic homogeneity? On the other hand, Singapore is very heterogeneous and clean, and eastern Kentucky is very homogenous and run-down. So maybe this whole attributing outcomes of society to singular factors isn’t very founded in science or reason but just gives people an opportunity to confirm whatever biases they have.

      • overfeed4 minutes ago
        > There is a ground-level appeal of the China-style panopticon because it delivers public order and clean streets

        Clean streets and high speed rail are not a bundled deal with the panopticon - there is no causative linkage. Surveillance - as Ellison plainly mentioned - is for controlling anti-establishment behaviors.

      • doctorpangloss18 minutes ago
        Haha, ground level appeal in a one party government? How would you know? Of course someone likes China's system, but who? How do you know?
        • toephu27 minutes ago
          Lookup China subreddits and on YouTube. Tons of Americans wish they could just pick up and move to China. Most Americans that visit China for the first time love it. It is pretty awesome. Have you not been?
    • swarnie24 minutes ago
      You can understand why - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgpqeq82rvo

      They bought a country for pocket change.

      Jeff will be president within 20 years imo.

      • lostlogin19 minutes ago
        > Jeff will be president within 20 years imo.

        It could be worse, it could be Musk.

        Having seen what Americans will vote for, either option is possible.

        • lazystar11 minutes ago
          every time this comes up I feel it's worth reminding people that this already happened before in American history - 1890's and the robber baron industrialists that monopolized everything.
      • AIorNot19 minutes ago
        exactly.. and in the near term, if not Jeff directly somebody like JD Vance who is a useful puppet for techbros
    • hootz16 minutes ago
      Sometimes I wonder if all the hype cycles around cryptocurrencies, AI and other stuff were basically just tech powertripping really hard.
  • hootz35 minutes ago
    And of course, the best behavior will be the behavior that poses zero threat to the people in power. What a great future we have ahead of us, my colleagues.
    • ekianjo27 minutes ago
      That is kinda what is going on in China.
      • colordrops5 minutes ago
        Except China has a well defined culture and millenia of experience with this and has learned how to have an autocratic society that still somewhat serves its people (until it doesn't). The US has been captured by a foreign power that has no interest in the welfare of the people so the expectation is that an autocratic society would be much worse in the US.
      • lenerdenator9 minutes ago
        And that's what the Larry Ellisons of the world want.

        One of the bigger lies ever told is that free-market economies help democratize nations. They don't. If they did, we would have made massive investments in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Marxist-Leninist governments there. Instead we decided to invest in China and, later, Vietnam, among others. These are two very non-democratic nations.

        Why did we do that, especially after the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Because it better fit the needs of capital. The last thing they wanted was to set up shop in a bunch of countries where the people had organized against authoritarian regimes for change. If they can get rid of the likes of Ceaușescu and Honecker despite their brutality, they could certainly do things like strike for better working conditions and a greater share of their employers' earnings.

        Ellison's just another in a long line of guys with far too much money and far too little empathy. If you get out-of-line in a way that financially or politically inconveniences him, he wants you dealt with as severely as possible. China does that, and now he wants that in the US and other Western countries.

    • jimt123428 minutes ago
      It's subjective. When I was a kid, "best behavior" didn't include assaulting law enforcement and smearing feces on the walls of Congress, but these days that behavior is acceptable, even officially celebrated.
      • Muromec23 minutes ago
        Somebody has to provide feedback loop and back pressure, so yes, celebrated and needed it is
      • rolph24 minutes ago
        apparently it will get you elected.
  • Yokohiii27 minutes ago
    Larry should be a good example and publicize all his communication.

    Pretty sure he is on his best behavior all the time.

    • jasonvorhe15 minutes ago
      Even if he did, the Epstein class already provided that they will get away with everything so what would be the point.
  • spider-mario4 minutes ago
    One thing I would like clarified is whether he is endorsing that future or just making a neutral prediction on what the state of surveillance will likely be.
  • twoodfin31 minutes ago
    If anyone managed to stick around through the later, lesser seasons of HBO’s Westworld, they were rewarded with a shockingly plausible view of the world Ellison is describing.

    And at a time when most of the computing technology required still seemed like sci-fi. I remember kind of chuckling at the idea that the machine intelligence had made and saved a recording of a random conversation Aaron Paul’s character had with his mother in a diner a decade prior.

    I have never been a privacy zealot, but it seems inevitable barring major political action that the panopticon will emerge comprehensive, actionable, and cheap.

    • prerok5 minutes ago
      You mean, you have not created a meet with the relative who could only join remotely and did not transcribe it for the relatives who could not attend? I am shocked /j
  • mainecoder9 minutes ago
    It is often commented how people who know they are recorded behave a certain way what is not commented on is how people who know they are recording other people behave. When you see your screen and you know you are recording them it creates this "power trip" it's feeling some of us know and love, but when we truly know it we don't love it anymore it's almost like a drug the high feels good the consequences are for others but that little guilt that lingers we don't like that. Now scale it at the size of an organization, the power trip with other people feel even more better, and the consequences ... well
  • jrochkind123 minutes ago
    I think when we look back in 10-20 years, mass nearly universal surveillance will be seen as one of the largest social impacts of AI, or perhaps the largest.

    We have barely scratched the surface, and I don't think most people have thought it through.

    I guess I appreciate Ellison is educating people about what's going on...

    • ffsm86 minutes ago
      Yeah, LLMs will enable big tech to expand the full surveillance from the online world to the real world, consequently monitoring all aspects of theirs lives.

      It's likely gonna take a decade or so for things to become obvious to everyone, just like it took a decade for people to understand the cost of eg. Facebook

  • chuckadams2 minutes ago
    They've been saying the quiet parts out loud for quite a few years now.
  • doitLP18 minutes ago
    Sounds pretty bad, but what’s the context? We should be skeptical of a quote out of context with some dogpile parallels without any other context. When did he say it? Where did he say it?
  • ikonoklast25 minutes ago
    Is Larry confessing that he's not in his best behavior whenever he's not being recorded?
    • unglaublich15 minutes ago
      Most people are not, indeed. So this is the crux of religion: the "god" watches you, and will punish or reward you. Now social media and governments takes over that role.
    • jasonvorhe14 minutes ago
      He has a yacht and owns billions. Need I say more?
  • platinumrad7 minutes ago
    China, but we don't get the high speed rail.
  • 22 minutes ago
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  • delichon10 minutes ago
    If they were just recording and it required human labor to interpret it would merely be a traditional regime of totalitarian repression. But this tech allows real time interpretation. Imagine that a stalwart ideologue gets to decide what behavior constitutes hate, and to dispatch enforcement before you can finish rolling your eyes. This is what makes me fear Ilya Sutskever's warning of an infinitely stable dictatorship. It's not clear that gravity well can be escaped.
  • Patrax23 minutes ago
    "best behaviour" doing a lot of work here. Best as defined by the oppressor of course.
  • t1234s10 minutes ago
    They have been recording.
  • speak_plainly22 minutes ago
    To be charitable to Ellison, it worked well in China.
    • platinumrad6 minutes ago
      Somehow, we're going to end up with all of the downsides and none of the upsides.
    • lenerdenator7 minutes ago
      It worked well in China because the Larry Ellisons of 35 years ago made sure the CCP was rewarded for keeping the rank-and-file in line and working instead of doing things like organizing for better working conditions or agitating for political change.
    • scrollaway15 minutes ago
      Being charitable to Larry Ellison is one of those things one cannot physically do, like being entertaining to a dead whale.
  • standardUser14 minutes ago
    Sometimes I wonder, if we were actually allowed to engage in the consensual drugs and sex that constitutes 95% of the activity people want to "get away with", would our societal response to infringements on our privacy be even weaker than it currently is?
  • wiradikusuma35 minutes ago
    I'm 100% sure a man like him, with lots of money, will have "interesting" life. The fact that he's willing to be recorded, is he an exhibitionist?

    Oh wait, he's exempted?

    • unglaublich14 minutes ago
      Lol like EU chat control: politicians vote in favor, and politicians are excluded.
  • hkon8 minutes ago
    Factually wrong. People actually take pride in recording their wrongdoings.
  • poszlem10 minutes ago
    "Intellectuals are naturally attracted by the idea of a planned society, in the belief that they will be in charge of it." — Roger Scruton
  • jimt123424 minutes ago
    Reminds me of an old Boogie Down Productions song, "Illegal Business": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHeBotnrwEI

    Everything's legal, if the government can see you.

  • likemaybealso13 minutes ago
    Not all arms are created equal
  • bell-cot27 minutes ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Thought_m...

    ADD: A local press story about Oracle's CEO and Altman "celebrating" a new DC in my part of the country, with sounds-less-creepy language: https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/2026/06/openai-oracle-l...

  • lucasmullens32 minutes ago
    > Ellison's warning came during an hour-long Q&A at an Oracle financial analyst meeting in September 2024.

    AI has been moving too fast to care about what some billionaire's opinion on it was 2 years ago.

    • daveguy16 minutes ago
      It wasn't a warning, it was a boast.
  • pstuart32 minutes ago
    Look how well it worked for cops! I'm not suggesting we get rid of their bodycams, but it's easily gamed.

    It's one thing to be rich and enjoy the luxuries afforded by that, but to buy dominance over the very lives of others is when the angry mob retaliation is entirely justifiable.

    • gobdovan17 minutes ago
      Exactly, cops can impose force on you and their jobs requires them to do it. If they wouldn't have body cams, it would be hard to see if coercion was justified or not. Surveilling powerless folks works in the other direction. It only serves to make them easier to discipline and teaches them that deviations from approved behaviour will be deterministically punished. And I also don't believe anyone is currently paid to act on their best behaviour as a simple citizen. Although this kind of monitoring works quite well for children under 6, you don't want paternalistic institutions, since you will never outgrow them.
    • strangattractor19 minutes ago
      In what way did it work well for cops?

      From what I've seen it goes both ways with bodycam footage. The cops often have to put up with seriously dangerous stupid people and cops on power trips are video'd abusing people. Not that I am defending Ellison. Sadly the rich will always be able to buy their way out of most any bad situation except screwing over richer people.

      • pstuart3 minutes ago
        By "worked well" I mean for citizens -- there's been multiple cases where cops lied and their bodycam exposed the lie.
  • likemaybealso14 minutes ago
    Not all arms are equal
  • sometimelurker14 minutes ago
    uh... in a very literal sense upvoting this helps Ellison. I think
  • yogthos6 minutes ago
    Funny how stuff like privacy and freedom of speech have always been touted as key differentiators of a liberal democracy. And now the mask is falling off because the interests of the ruling class are increasingly diverging from those of the working majority.
  • AyanamiKaine16 minutes ago
    [flagged]
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  • threwrfaway29 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • jqpabc12326 minutes ago
    In other words, "We're evil so you can't be".
  • inshard10 minutes ago
    You can’t have mass immigration, mainly economic migrants from the third world, unboxed funded police forces, and a legal system built for high trust, highly educated, fairly homogeneous populace at the same time and expect things to be all happy days.
  • sumoboy15 minutes ago
    He forgot to mention we'll need 1000 more data centers and 3000 new prisons to manage the chaos. So confused by this billionaire behavior with wanting to control society.
  • happytoexplain21 minutes ago
    Reject Larry Ellison from civilization.
    • selimthegrim11 minutes ago
      Reject Larry Ellison, embrace ...?
    • sirbutters14 minutes ago
      and musk, and orange turd, and zuck.