77 pointsby mgh22 hours ago18 comments
  • pu_pe2 hours ago
    The stock market doesn't operate on long-term principles anymore. So, in some sense, it is immaterial that the rosy scenarios where AI is responsible for >$30 trillion in the next decade are unlikely. If you bet against the hype and it goes on for a few more months/years you lose as much or more than if you went along for the ride.

    Burry is well aware of this, he has written about how passive investing is contributing to this problem.

    • WinstonSmith8430 minutes ago
      > If you bet against the hype and it goes on for a few more months/years you lose as much or more than if you went along for the ride.

      > Burry is well aware of this ...

      Well, no he isn't well aware of this, apparently. He's been right in 2008 but he has been spectacularly wrong for the last 5 to 10 years, like shorting Tesla or Nvidia at the worst possible moments - and eventually closing his hedge fund...

    • A_D_E_P_Tan hour ago
      > The stock market doesn't operate on long-term principles anymore.

      It has been broken since ~2008 (ZIRPs, etc.) and has really gone off the rails since BTC and memestocks have taken off. Now everything's a memestock. It's all vibes-based.

      • fireflash38an hour ago
        People have seen others make insane, life changing money at this slot machine and are wanting to take their chances.

        There are no fundamentals.

        There is very low signal to the noise.

        • bumbyan hour ago
          >People have seen others make insane, life changing money at this slot machine and are wanting to take their chances.

          Isn’t this the exact same sentiment from the late 1920s when people were making “insane, life changing” money by buying equities on margin?

          • Eddy_Viscosity232 minutes ago
            This time is different.

            It may well though, because now we have an automatic buy from the government to 'fix' the market if it 'breaks'. The line goes up.

            • idiotsecant14 minutes ago
              That just means it's like the 1920s even harder, just on a time delay fuse
        • surgical_fire33 minutes ago
          The question is how long until things break.

          I wouldn't advocate for betting against any of this. But I took my money out of the stock market a few months ago.

          Shorting is too risky and depends a lot on timing. Staying clear of this mess is a safer bet.

      • maeln10 minutes ago
        I don't think there is a single thing that explain the absolute joke that is the current market. Algorithmic trading, high-frequency trading, deregulation, passive investment, “finance” influencer pump and dumping ... But in general, I do believe it has the same issues that you can say about anything these days. It's not like those things didn't exist into a form or another in the past, but it's just so, so much faster these days.

        To make a parallel, it's not like disinformation didn't exist in the past, but nowadays with social media, llms and image gen tools and a few armies of bots, you can spread whatever bullshit you want at lightning speed.

    • martinclaytonan hour ago
      (Agreeing with you) In the 1980s Gary Shilling said:

      The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

      A long-term principle that I think does still apply.

    • throwfaraway4an hour ago
      The extent to which you’re exposed to long term principles is directly related to the time you’re in the market. Ie trader vs investor

      “In the short run, the market is a voting machine, but in the long run, it is a weighing machine”

      - benjamin graham

    • bumbyan hour ago
      Can you elaborate on how passive investing contributes to this?
      • mschuster913 minutes ago
        Simple. Most "passive investors" are ETFs and pension funds that sometimes by law, sometimes by statute/sales prospect are limited to being low-risk, i.e. the monthly contributions go towards "safe" asset classes, and in addition retail customers prefer low-fee (and thus low-management) funds.

        That in turn means that a lot of the invested money goes towards ultra-safe stuff like government bonds, which is about the only thing keeping the US government afloat (if there is always a healthy amount of buyers, you can go into debt no matter if it is sustainable), and what remains of the hundreds of billions of dollars that flow into these funds each month (and [1] is just pension funds, not 401k and other forms of privately-held retirement assets) and is not earmarked for such safe asset classes spills onto the ordinary stock market, i.e. S&P 500, NASDAQ et al.

        And here comes the trap with low-fee investment funds... when the ETF or pension fund's policy is "we'll track NASDAQ 100" and SpaceX enters NASDAQ 100, they have no choice than to shift billions of dollars worth of assets into SpaceX at whatever is the market price at that point. No matter if the fund managers think that the valuation is excessive, if SpaceX has a long term viable business strategy, nothing can prevent this.

        To make it worse: once in NASDAQ 100, you as a company have no incentive to behave. You cannot be punished by free-market means (aka going under), simply because your inclusion in the NASDAQ 100 means that any significant loss in value would wipe out way too much value in pension funds.

        The US' idea to completely tie pensions to the stock market will fry the US economy alive.

        [1] Q1 20: 23T, Q1 21: 26T => about 3T/y, 250B/mo, per https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/BOGZ1FL594090005Q

      • ghtbircshotbe33 minutes ago
        • deepserket17 minutes ago
          note that the comments on that post were written in the middle of the 2022 bear market, that's why the tone is more depressed than average.
  • martinclaytonan hour ago
    What's the rationale offered by NASDAQ for their new "15-days and you're in the index" rule for these massive IPOs?

    Seems equivalent to removing road safety rules for the least-tested, most-powerful new vehicles only.

    • brainwad20 minutes ago
      They want the index to be representative of the top stocks listed on the Nasdaq, even if they are brand new. The Nasdaq 100 in particular is a marketing tool for the stock exchange, it's not a particularly principled index.
      • martinclayton8 minutes ago
        Yeah, indeed. See (march) https://www.reuters.com/business/new-nasdaq-rules-include-fa...

        Quote from Cameron Lilja, Nasdaq's global head of index solutions:

        "It is not necessarily representative to have a company that's big and could have a sizable representation in the index to keep them out for that long," Lilja said in an interview. "We're seeing share and corporate structures change - and companies that are staying private considerably longer are thus growing to be truly mega-cap companies before they even come to the public markets."

        There's been fewer IPOs recently so Nasdaq and competitors are all racing to woo the few big ones to list with them.

    • bombcar30 minutes ago
      I suppose you could make an argument that these enormously large IPOs are themselves a new phenomenon and need to be accounted for.
  • pjmlp2 hours ago
    Of course not, this is pure speculation just like in past cycles, until it goes bum.
    • schonfinkelan hour ago
      And this time the boooom has a larger blast radius than all the previous booooms combined.
      • abirchan hour ago
        The largest so far. We have always been in a boom/ bust cycle. The difference is that they are coming faster and faster.

        I need to figure out the next one.

        The famous quote, "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent," is widely attributed to the renowned British economist John Maynard Keynes 1883-1946

        • idiotsecant10 minutes ago
          Keynes died 50 years before this started being a saying. It was made by Gary Shilling.
    • jstummbilligan hour ago
      Minus, of course, all the times where it did not go bum, right?
      • pjmlpan hour ago
        Such as?
        • l23k4an hour ago
          Do you live in a cave? I guess not.

          Do you have access to the internet? Seemingly yes.

          The booms just tend to be much bigger than the busts.

          • enraged_camelan hour ago
            The internet absolutely went bust. That’s what the dotcom crash was.

            Same with a lot of physical infrastructure. The UK has a robust railroad network today, but it was built during a bubble that was so insane people would take loans from banks to invest in railroad stocks.

            • monooso32 minutes ago
              Now we just take loans to purchase the train tickets.
            • simianwords15 minutes ago
              > The internet absolutely went bust

              How does it matter to you? If you had invested in Internet broadly, you would have been WAY better off in the long term. Meaning: your strategy had been to keep investments tied to Internet first companies, you would have done better than pretty much any other person.

              Things go up and down but broadly internet went up.

          • SirFattyan hour ago
            Great examples.
          • pjmlp30 minutes ago
            Yes, and I lost my job during the dotcom crash, so nope.
      • mritsan hour ago
        Most people can't get past the kind of logic that declares Facebook doomed for 20 years because Myspace.
        • pjmlpan hour ago
          Beyond GenX and Boomers who is still using Facebook? We don't live forever.
  • tejohnso19 minutes ago
    And TSLA isn't worth it's current market cap of 1.47 trillion dollars either. Hasn't been of any consequence for years.
  • chvid25 minutes ago
    Coinbase IPOed 5 years ago and is (and has mostly been) trading below its IPO price.

    Perhaps private equity has become so skilled that when they finally sell to the public they leave nothing on table.

  • lifty2 hours ago
    It’s very risky to make these kind of claims. If the denominator (USD) gets obliterated they might very well be worth $1T. It’s all about liquidity and central banks have a whole bag of tricks at their disposal. They never want to see deflation shocks again and they prefer asset inflation.
    • monooso2 hours ago
      That seems like a hollow win.
  • whazor2 hours ago
    I think you could argue Anthropic could be worth $1T. With AI becoming an essential work utility, every global knowledge worker would want a claude subscription. There are 650M to 1B of such office workers. 300M workers × $50/month × 12 = $180B/year. The genie is not going back into the bottle, I have seen what claude code can do when properly connected to tools.

    But Micheals arguments are valid. There could be competition, or even local models, thus indeed becoming 'commoditized'.

    • orwinan hour ago
      What probability do you assign to that, especially since CC harness code leaked?

      Because I used frontier models this weekend (I had 78% of my assigned tokens for this month left, I wanted to burn them before June 1st, ended up with 24% left), and tbh, I don't see much of the improvement compared to the models I use day-to-day. I'd rather pay less for a slightly worse model. Stacktrace analysis (or any bug analysis really) is where LLMs have the most success rate imho, and free models are good enough since last year. As for coding/architecture tasks, frontier models seems to hallucinate less, but I wonder if it's the guardrails or the he model themselves.

    • jappgaran hour ago
      Why would we need 1B office workers when Claude is supposed to fire everyone anyways?
    • sourcecodeplz20 minutes ago
      I code 8+ hours days with Deepseek V4 flash and it costs me under $1 per day... I dont know how they will charge so much for a sub.
      • alberto46715 minutes ago
        Well... $1 a day is not that far from that hypothetical $50 a month though. Especially if it gives you access to significantly more powerful models (which it does).

        EDIT: i still find absurd thinking that all those subscription would go to a single company, let me be clear. But that $50 price doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

    • bpt329 minutes ago
      AI is far from becoming an essential work utility, Anthropic will not be used by approximately 100% of the office workers in the developed world, and a price to sales ratio of over 5 for a company that is struggling to become profitable due to high operating expenses seems exceptionally high.

      The problem with all these companies is that they are priced as if their training and inference costs are going to come way down, but somehow only for them specifically.

    • cyanydeez2 hours ago
      thing is, we have both local models and local hardware and a true evaluation would do a calculation before openai inflated thw market, before nvidia made circular deals and the other distortions. i think youd find the ROI is nowhere near the API rates are the "price support" is entirely a figment of billionaires and their parasites trying to corner the market by horde logistics
  • helsinkiandrewan hour ago
    Matt Levine made an interesting point that the SpaceX IPO looks like a short squeeze/pump and dump [1]:

    1. Do an IPO.

    2. Sell a small amount (5%) to price insensitive Elon Musk-fans at a $2 trillion valuation

    3. Get in all the indexes, because you are huge.

    4. Unlock more stock, which the index funds have to purchase

    [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2026-06-01/the...

    • baxtran hour ago
      Please, don’t buy the stock. It’s a classic retail investor trap
      • helsinkiandrewan hour ago
        The issue is that once it's in the S&P500, Russel, Nasdaq100 etc indices - everyone with a pension or tracker fund will be buying it without thinking
        • tossandthrowan hour ago
          Yes. I am severely reducing my exposure to these indices finding alternatives.

          My impressions is that US investors also have a special love for the S&P500 and could likely benefit from a non-US bias.

          • mapt26 minutes ago
            The new thing lately is ETFs that are "Whole-Market minus Microsoft" or "Whole-Market Minus Magnificent Seven". You can achieve similar ends by combining a whole market fund with direct short positions if you're an institutional investor, but it gets a little needy of your attention and your calculator and your fees to maintain those positions as a low-cap retail investor (just buy a put a day or something?).
        • throwfaraway4an hour ago
          This is why direct indexing is important. I can simply exclude these tickers. Will it skew it slightly from the index? Sure but I’m ok with that
        • bpt326 minutes ago
          I am explicitly avoiding these indices until this exploit is fixed. The lack of diversity in SPY and the like is already bad enough without these pump and dump schemes being added to the mix.

          Buy alternative ETFs with similar performance and low fees. VIG is one example.

          • iso163121 minutes ago
            Not great when every other share price collapses as they get sold as funds are rebalanced.

            Almost every stock in VIG is in the S&P.

            • bpt316 minutes ago
              The "almost" portion of your statement is the entire point, and re-balancing isn't going to cause "every other share price to collapse".
    • Luc25 minutes ago
      But he then writes: "I want to be really clear that this is the schematic maximally cynical approach, is not what SpaceX is doing, and is not actually possible."
  • iso163126 minutes ago
    Doesn't matter, it will go into the nasdaq/s&p at $1t, passive funds will have to buy it at that price, meaning a wealth transfer from 401ks to people with pre-ipo stock

    The only reason AI is worth $1T is if you believe it will continue to get better and displace all those jobs, not just in claude replacing knowlege workers, but in the outcome of that work being so transformational that physical work is also replaced.

    If it does, then the entire economy is completely turned over and it doesn't really matter as nobody will have a job, and thus the entire concept of the S&P and the western economy as a whole falls to bits.

    • 10xDev17 minutes ago
      The belief (for some) is that it will create new jobs like previous revolutions. No one has said what these will look like yet though.
  • LightBug1an hour ago
    Literally adjusting my pension funds and ETA's away from this ... I don't even care if I lose out. I want stable growth. Not a nation obsessed with memestocks.
    • schonfinkelan hour ago
      Are you trying to be sane and rational in a market that has turned into a casino? U crazy or something?
  • jansan2 hours ago
    The real question is how we are defining "worth." Much of the market has decoupled from traditional fundamental data, with Tesla's P/E of 380 illustrating this perfectly, but the Tesla stock price refuses to collapse.

    We all know the market can stay irrational much longer than you can stay solvent if you bet against it. If you watched "The Long Short" (excellent movie btw.) you know how close Michael Burry came to capitulation before his subprime bet paid off. He seems to have a tendency to be too early with his predictions, even with his genius GameStop investment. So while he may be right again fundamentally, his timing may be completely off and those companies could be "worth" significantly more than a trillion dollars, at least temporarily, in stock valuations.

    My personal prediction is this: The hype will go on longer than people think, just like with the New Economy. There is this quote from market analyst Larry Wachtel in 1999 who said: "Everybody's happy, everybody's making money - something's wrong here"[1]. Ironically, even Wachtel eventually succumbed to FOMO, capitulated, went in late, and lost a lot of money[2]. I am trying to not make his mistake, but it will be tempting to do so, I am sure about that.

    [1] https://youtu.be/uaK5tsH59UM?t=1188

    [2] https://youtu.be/DSVPsP0Bfx0?t=456

  • spwa4an hour ago
    This is what they're actually talking about:

    https://michaeljburry.substack.com/

    And the counterpoint is that META, GOOG, AMZN, MSFT are all betting their companies that AI is the next move. Just yesterday, GOOG lent another $80 billion to be invested in their AI hardware, and they're also investing their own stock in AI hardware, for a cumulative investment of already over $1 trillion. Clearly the tech sector thinks this is worth it.

    And of course the people deciding in FANG companies actually have numbers, Michael Burry has the same numbers you have. So these investments are "worth it" according to people with inside information. What Burry is doing, in one perspective, is calling out the leadership of FANG companies. Now that's the job of a short-seller of course. But that's the bet being made.

  • 2 hours ago
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  • uriahlightan hour ago
    It'll be a wonderful crow feast to anyone who agrees with Michael Burry on this.
  • dansmith19192 hours ago
    bro was right ONCE and now every tweet is a headline
    • helsinkiandrew2 hours ago
      He's been wrong a few times, but has been right far more than ONCE and appears to be profitably making decisions. For example:

      Short dot.com stocks (55% return), short subprime mortgages (Massive return), long Gamestop 2019, short ARKK 2021, The shorts on Palantir and NVDA are probably still running (PLTR 25% in profit, NVDA 20% loss).

      • turtlesdown1121 minutes ago
        > long Gamestop 2019

        So he really relies on zero fundamental analysis these days

    • blitzaran hour ago
      Its frustrating; you grind out a living making consistent solid double digit returns for investors and all anyone talks about is a guy who made 5bn for their investors 20 years ago and has lost 25bn for them since.
    • mellosouls2 hours ago
      It was a hell of a once tho
    • mschuster912 hours ago
      He's still right this time.

      Neither Anthropic, Open AI nor SpaceX in its current form is a good candidate for an IPO at valuations that all but guarantee hundreds of billions of dollars in "passive capital" aka pension funds and ETFs will have to buy in.

      SpaceX might have been a candidate on its own core business (aka: launching spacecraft and Starlink), but ever since the weird side deals with all of the other companies in the Muskverse (Twitter, xAI, Tesla) it is far too contaminated.

      Sooner or later the AI bubble will burst - and assuming that the pension funds and ETFs buy in as projected, they stand to lose a lot of money that will make Covid's first lockdown + dotcom + 2007 Lehman combined look pale.

      • potatototoo992 hours ago
        Elon must be looking to merge the new amalgamation of SPCX into TSLA and join all his sinking ships in one. Starlink itself won't be able to save that, but make it too big and the government might. That is the way to get to the ridiculous valuations needed for Elon's pay package.
      • cmsj2 hours ago
        True, but the VC money will have been paid back, and what are we if not meat for the soulless machine of capitalism?
  • aaron695an hour ago
    [dead]
  • beernet2 hours ago
    AI doomers really are punching the air these days.

    They will be right eventually and inevitably. Until then, it's funny watching them build a personal "brand" just to say "I told you so" when the market drops in X years.

    • monooso2 hours ago
      Your comment suggests that you (1) didn't read the article, and (2) have no idea who Michael Burry is.
    • epolanski2 hours ago
      He didn't say AI is doomed or a fluke, he said that these two AI companies aren't worth 1T in capitalization.

      The same way semiconductor, internet or railroad companies were not great investments regardless of how important the technology was going to be. It's still a financial investment and it's only going to pay off if bought at the right price, not at crazy multiples.

      I will also add: if all your moat is your latest model, you're as good as your latest model and can be easily dethroned.

      Strong moats are monopoly-like concessions (Verisign), exclusive technological edge (ASML), brands (Coca Cola), etc.

      • hparadiz2 hours ago
        Anthropic is the one company where that makes no sense. If revenue really is about 50 billion annually and growing than that means that a 20x 1 year of revenue valuation is modest compared to the shenanigans that have been going in the market. It's almost classically textbook conservative in comparison. The moat with these corporate enterprise contracts is literally your conversation history and companies aren't likely to jump ship when everyone likes the tools so long as costs stay nominal. AI at most orgs isn't even the biggest line item.
        • potatototoo992 hours ago
          We know nothing about Anthropic, they make a few money go round deals, announce a bit of revenue, extrapolate it into the whole year and people parrot that they may be making $50bn. Most likely the cost to remain competitive eats at whatever revenue they could hope to make. I expect them to fudge the numbers the last quarter before their IPO, dump on passive investors, and then go back to being officially unprofitable.
        • surgical_fire21 minutes ago
          > If revenue really is about 50 billion annually

          Might I interest you in some bridges sir?

        • tlakshgfan hour ago
          What does revenue have to do with it? Mercedes has a revenue of $130 billion, profit of $5 billion and a market cap of $56 billion.

          According to your logic, it should have a market cap of $2.6 trillion.

          Conservative is to look at P/E, which is 10 for Mercedes.

          Anthropic isn't even a growth stock, since it has already been force fed to everyone with one of the largest marketing and coercion campaigns in history.

          • hparadizan hour ago
            I've had economics professors tell me that a "normal" business valuation is 10 years of profit so your example is in line with my thinking there. I'm just as curious to see the final numbers as you but if they are even approaching them it's not very out there to consider a high valuation. I don't wish to speculate on what the numbers actually are. I want to see them too.
            • surgical_fire20 minutes ago
              Anthropic has negative profit. There are rumors they had one quarter of profit with some accounting shenanigans.

              It also has no path to become profitable.

        • epolanski2 hours ago
          All competitors need are their latest model to be either better or similar but much cheaper. And Anthropic has no less than 2 big competitors in the space in US alone providing similar quality models.

          There's no moat in LLMs when you're as good as your latest model.

          Companies out there aren't in the business of throwing money down the drain.

          Take DS4, you can use Deepseek APIs directly with Claude Code, and you're unlikely to notice a difference for the overwhelming majority of your use cases. But your bills run in few $ per day. I'm talking 2 magnitudes less.

          • hparadizan hour ago
            You forget the institutional inertia of how these things get negotiated from year to year. If something is working for people they tend to wanna keep it. The existing curation of how everything works is cheaper than rolling your own. Sure you can get something running yourself but integrations for a lot of people are worth some of this cost. Also for AI heavy customers (multimedia, video, etc) the sky is the limit and there's not enough processing for it right now.
            • epolanskian hour ago
              That logic works for 20 vs 40$ SaaS subscriptions, not for burning triple/four digits per day in APIs.
      • alexpotato2 hours ago
        > brands (Coca Cola), etc.

        Paul Graham doesn't think so

        https://paulgraham.com/brandage.html

      • mschuster912 hours ago
        > Strong moats are monopoly-like concessions (Verisign), exclusive technological edge (ASML), brands (Coca Cola), etc.

        Agreed with the exception of Verisign. Many a "security" company went bust like DigiNotar after mishaps or hacks. Being a globally trusted root CA or DNS operator is a strong moat - but also an incredibly brittle one.

        And brands... brands aren't as safe as we thought either, as "store brands"/"private labels" are taking up more and more market share [1].

        [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/shoppers-are-tradi...

  • wewewedxfgdfan hour ago
    So the company that actually makes computers programming computers work, ain't worth $1T.

    Whoever you are Michael Burry, you don't know shit about the implications, and where this is headed, and that the party only just got started.

    I sure do wish I had a big chunk of that overpriced Google IPO stock, and Amazon, and MS, and Apple, etc etc etc

    • bhokbah26 minutes ago
      > So the company that actually makes computers programming computers work

      Translation (took me while to understand this sentence):

      So the company that actually solved the problem of making a computer program write other computer programs

    • saidnooneeveran hour ago
      makes computers work. makes computer programming work.

      please go back to school

    • axegon_an hour ago
      > the company that actually makes computers programming computers work

      LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL