176 pointsby mslate4 hours ago18 comments
  • pibaker2 hours ago
    Train electrification would at minimum reduce pollution from diesel trains, and in the case of Caltrain, improve train services and reduce the number of cars on the road.

    It is peak irony that a piece of environmental regulation is being used here to delay the upgrade works. On brand for California, of course.

    • pfannkuchen2 hours ago
      Were the environmental regulations actually intended as roadblocks and the environmentalists were useful idiots, or did the regulations start out useful and get hijacked, or were they always bad but it was an unintended consequence?

      Like is the reason why free X is better is just because whenever rules are made, the maker of rules can be corrupted to make rules for corrupters? And corrupters always exist, so minimizing the rules attack surface is a good strategy. And corrupters try to broaden the attack surface by having more rules and rule generation mechanisms in place.

    • dekhn2 hours ago
      Caltrain already electrified this track and got rid of nearly all its diesel trains; those are only used from San Jose to Gilroy which is not electrified (and not anywhere near Atherton).
  • danans2 hours ago
    > They lost. So why did it still cost us $400 million?

    Did the article provide a direct answer to this? I see the $20M delay payments to contractors and the rise of labor costs cited, but is that all?

    • jeremyjh2 hours ago
      No. It says the direct payments created other funding gaps that caused further delays that added costs, but provides no information about what those were, much less any evidence that they are due only to this lawsuit.
    • decimalenough2 hours ago
      The article's somewhat dubious argument is that the 2012 budget estimate was $1.5B, the actual cost by 2017 was $1.9B, and the $400M difference was caused entirely by Atherton's law suit.

      Which is obviously a bit sus, because the actual lawsuit froze everything for only around 18 months from Feb 2015 to Sep 2016.

      • Drunk_Engineer2 hours ago
        The CBOSS fiasco, which added $200 million in costs, certainly can't be blamed on Atherton.
      • em-bee2 hours ago
        there was also a delay in the decision for funding until may 2017. that's another 8 months. but then we don't know when that decision would have been made originally.
    • AdamJacobMuller2 hours ago
      It did not.

      In fact the article comes dangerously close to admitting that there is correlation without correlation, it opens with:

      > Here is the short version. In 2012, Caltrain budgeted its electrification project — the backbone of the Peninsula's transit future and a prerequisite for high-speed rail to ever reach San Francisco — at roughly $1.5 billion. By 2017 that number had ballooned to $1.9 billion. In between, the Town of Atherton sued.

      While I don't agree with what Atherton did here (in general, I did not look at the specifics), you have to be fairly negligent to think you're going to build something in California without a massive legal headache. This is a legislative problem which it sounds like, for this narrow case, the legislature actually solved (shockingly to me). I find it hard to blame the residents of the city for exercising their rights.

      • danans2 hours ago
        > This is a legislative problem which it sounds like, for this narrow case, the legislature actually solved (shockingly to me). I find it hard to blame the residents of the city for exercising their rights.

        Filing frivolous lawsuits is also a right but we don't withhold our criticism of that practice. What Atherton did seems like the wealthy person's equivalent of that, down to it being dismissed. Legal? yes. Cynical and amoral, also yes.

      • em-bee2 hours ago
        you have to be fairly negligent to think you're going to build something in California without a massive legal headache

        that's not fair. the question was: did the legal headache cause the budget-overrun. predictable or not, your response does not show that it didn't.

  • abtinf2 hours ago
    The HN rules need to expand to ban all AI generated posts.
    • zitterbewegung2 hours ago
      I use AI to generate diagrams but not having the time to just clean up the diagram is pretty bad.... at least take the time to do that.
    • matheusmoreira2 hours ago
      I'm going to ask the same questions I asked the lobsters community.

      Define "AI generated".

      Whole article generation? LLM draft with human finish? Human draft with LLM finish? Is proof reading OK? Or is it permanently tainted the second an LLM touches it?

      • em-bee2 hours ago
        pangram says 100% generated. whatever that means: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48350638
        • matheusmoreira2 hours ago
          > pangram gives this a 100% score, on account of the em-dashes.

          By that logic, at least one of my articles is 100% AI generated.

          > And just like that, lone has a conservative garbage collector. Until next time. Soon I'll write about—

          • em-bee2 hours ago
            well, that's kind of my implied criticism. which is why i checked what would happen if i removed all the em-dashes. it's not that much better. but i think the number of em-dashes also matters. check your article with and without em-dashes, see what difference it makes.
      • abtinf2 hours ago
        No, proof reading isn’t okay. No LLM involvement should be allowed whatsoever, exactly the same as the current HN policy on comments.
    • ZeWaka2 hours ago
      It's absurd at this point.
  • nine_k2 hours ago
    «The good news is that California's legislature noticed. In 2024, prompted directly by this fiasco, California passed AB 2503, exempting rail electrification on existing right-of-way from the CEQA reviews that Atherton exploited. One veto point, closed.»

    Maybe California is not as hopeless as it may look.

  • smcg3 hours ago
    I think we should have a letter writing campaign to shame residents of Atherton. There's not that many of them.
    • Animats3 hours ago
      I've never been able to figure out what's so great about Atherton. The houses are big, but other than that, it's nothing special. Woodside is a nice horse community with hills and sequoias. Los Altos Hills used to be; there was a time when the Los Altos Hunt ran the town. Palo Alto is next to Stanford. Portola Valley used to have more patent holders per capita than anywhere else in the US. Atherton is just a bedroom town on flatland with big houses.
      • segmondy2 hours ago
        sometimes that's it... you're thinking they are not great and if others feel the same, then it's no wonder they feel insecure and are fighting footing for recognition.
      • nielsbot2 hours ago
        don’t forget cachet among well off people.
      • lern_too_spel29 minutes ago
        It's the only option for large flat lots in the middle of Silicon Valley. Aside from the famously responsive police department, city services are basically non-existent, but the residents have their own private libraries and recreation centers.
      • alephnerd2 hours ago
        > I've never been able to figure out what's so great about Atherton

        It's 90s/2000s tech and finance leadership money - excluded from Woodside and Portola Valley so Atherton was the next best thing back then.

        Not being around Asians played a huge role as well - in the 1990s and 2000s, Saratoga, Cupertino, the Fremont Hills, and the parts of Palo that fell under Gunn High became "Asian" and we were viewed negatively by Silicon Valley types back then. I remember the white flight first hand [0]

        Cathy Gatley, co-president of Monta Vista High School's parent-teacher association, recently dissuaded a family with a young child from moving to Cupertino because there are so few young white kids left in the public schools. "This may not sound good," she confides, "but their child may be the only Caucasian kid in the class." (2005)

        Their kinds still populate HN.

        > Woodside is a nice horse community with hills and sequoias

        Older money (1950s-1990s)

        > Palo Alto is next to Stanford

        Palo Alto was much more "middle class" (think like Fremont or Dublin is today) back then

        [0] - https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113236377590902105

    • jmspring3 hours ago
      Atherton residents include people like founders of A16Z, Stephen Curry and others. The funny thing, 10-15 years ago, a number of residences were second houses and generally empty.

      Back about 15-16 years ago, there was an international incubator BlackBox based out of one of the properties in Atherton.

      • nine_k2 hours ago
        Time and again, a small group of people who have motivation and resources wins against numerous members of general public who are neither coordinated nor motivated enough.
      • malfist2 hours ago
        Wasn't 10-15 years ago the financial crisis?
    • JumpCrisscross3 hours ago
      > we should have a letter writing campaign

      The state should be able to collect damages for frivolous NIMBY lawsuits. I don’t care if they’re ashamed. If they’re fine paying more taxes to behave like idiots, who cares.

      • alephnerd3 hours ago
        Where do the fundraising events for House, Senate, and the State House happen ;)

        Atherton is a vibe, but it's an older demographic of tech and finance successes (the 1990s-2000s scene).

        • JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
          > Where do the fundraising events for House, Senate, and the State House happen

          Atherton is wealthy. But it’s surrounded by the Bay Area. Atherton is uniquely civically engaged, but that’s about it. Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Cupertino and San Francisco can each muster more capital than it can, to say nothing of LA.

          • alephnerd2 hours ago
            They absolutely can in aggregate, but all those towns you listed only became "rich" in the last 10-15 years, and their wealthy members tend to be extremely disassociated with the local political scene from personal experience giving advice to my peers.

            Atherton, along with Hillsborough, Ladera, Potola Valley, and Woodside represent old and oldish money who were much more engaged and locally entrenched.

            These are peers of Draper, Ellison, Conway, Steyer, Newsom, Getty, Schiff, Pelosi, Sobrato, Panetta, and Siebel and are an entirely different social and political strata.

            There is a money as well as a racial component, which is ironic as a significant portion of the community were Italian, German, and Irish Catholics who were excluded by descendants of the Hearsts and Stanfords barely 70 years ago.

            Edit: I completely agree with you. The issue is organizational though - California local and state government is structured in such a way that local priorities can override collective goals, and this goes well beyond weaponized environmental reviews or NIMBYism.

  • altairprime3 hours ago
    Can the county remove Atherton from its services coverage boundaries until the $400M of costs have been recouped?
    • saagarjha2 hours ago
      Atherton does not have a Caltrain station anymore.
      • altairprime2 hours ago
        That sounds more like something they would celebrate than suffer.
  • reducesuffering3 hours ago
    Atherton resident Marc Andreessen Apr 18th 2020: "It's Time To Build" "We can’t build nearly enough housing in our cities"[0]

    Andreessen family 2 years later: "IMMENSELY AGAINST multifamily development! I am writing this letter to communicate our IMMENSE objection to the creation of multifamily overlay zones in Atherton... They will MASSIVELY decrease our home values"[1]

    [0] https://a16z.com/its-time-to-build/

    [1] https://therealdeal.com/san-francisco/2022/08/08/marc-andree...

    • austin-cheney2 hours ago
      I can sympathize.

      People in my town, Fort Worth, have been saying the same things for years. People were moving in too fast causing home values to sky rocket, so everyone was saying they need to build houses faster to prevent a property tax explosion. You can only build single family homes so fast, so then came the hundreds and hundreds of multi-family apartment campuses and home values immediately tanked. They got what they wished for. Now we have traffic, electric grid, and school system over crowding because they still can’t build everything else fast enough. Even still people keep moving in, about 65 new residents a day.

      • SwellJoe2 hours ago
        Housing values did not tank in Fort Worth. You can't just make up the results to suit the story you're telling. Fort Worth housing prices have mostly tracked alongside the rest of the country (big spike upward starting around 2020, then leveling off, and then a slight correction, but still much higher than 2019). Many cities have shown a very similar pattern.
    • qingcharles2 hours ago
      Andreessen is not a good person.
    • micromacrofoot2 hours ago
      it's time to build (ew, no not here... somewhere else)!
  • outside12343 hours ago
    CEQA is basically a weapon for the rich to stop anything. It needs massive reform.
    • surfmike3 hours ago
      • JoshTriplett3 hours ago
        Also AB 2503:

        > expand that exemption from CEQA to include a public project for the institution or increase of other passenger rail service, which will be exclusively used by zero-emission trains, located entirely within existing rail rights-of-way or existing highway rights-of-way.

      • sroussey3 hours ago
        Exemptions for favored things. Should do a full reform.
      • loeg3 hours ago
        Directionally correct, but doesn't go far enough.
        • JumpCrisscross3 hours ago
          Is there any serious argument against repealing CEQA? NEPA exists. As do public lands.
      • sandeepkd3 hours ago
        Unfortunately it does not works as intended all the times. From what I have personally observed, everything falls down to the city planners on the interpretation of the code changes.
        • mlyle3 hours ago
          I'm confused; AB2503 does specify some building standard changes ... to be studied and then adopted by 2032.

          We're talking about how it exempts many things from CEQA litigation. Since it's been less than a year, I'm not sure how well we can gauge its effectiveness.

          • sandeepkd2 hours ago
            This is from my own personal experience for normal housing project. The city officials works as conservatively to safeguard themselves.
  • KennyBlankenan hour ago
    Meanwhile, even worse is the effort to fight wind turbines - an extremely-well-organized network set up by the fossil fuel industry that uses local residents to astroturf for them. They provide talking points, lawn signs, graphics, guidance on social media posts, the works.

    https://climateadvocacylab.org/resource/against-wind-map-ant...

    One of their victims was Cape Wind. The project would have made the cape and islands almost 75% carbon-free power for decades.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Wind

    They've been desperately trying to kill off Vineyard Wind, too. And they have killed off many individual turbine projects.

  • aleksandrm2 hours ago
    Capitalism is a cancer to society, we let corporations dictate the progression of our country.
  • 3 hours ago
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  • refulgentis3 hours ago
    I agree completely and empathetically and vehemently with the idea behind the message.

    The slop & aggressively poor argumentation, the kind that I think would have caused me to fail it if I tried it in speech & debate in middle school, leaves me feeling empty.

    They keep saying $400M, $400M, $400M, $400M, and the only cost they came up with is $20M. It makes me uncomfortable to support the overall cause if this is how it'll be played, because, setting aside morality of tactics, it's not playing to win. Anyone who is at the margins will see it plainly and be given a reason not to listen.

  • jmyeet2 hours ago
    I came across Henry Fudge recently, who is a former wealth manager, economist and I think startup investor. He did a video on the cost blowouts of the UK's HS2 [1] where, apparently, £5.3B was spent on a tunnel to take the train underground through a wealthy commuter town north of London called Amersham. It's not quite as wealthy as Atherton but still. There was no engineering reason for the tunnel. The money was spent by British taxpayers to protect the views of some of the wealthiest people in the UK.

    What's interesting is that many who defend our current mode of production (capitalism) either don't know or have forgotten that Adam Smith (of The Wealth of Nations fame obviously) had a very negative view of landlords, calling them essentially parasitic. I mean this is where the term "rent-seeking" comes from. Landlords and landowners essentially extracted value from the economy for no productive economic output. In other words, they were parasites.

    Fudge has written papers on what he calls the "Housing Theory of Everything" [2] and calls the property market a "rentier black hole". When property becomes the best-performing asset, it redirects all capital that might otherwise go to producing things and (in his opinion) this is what really hollowed out British industry. He also argues for a land value tax, similar to what France has (IFI).

    I find this interesting because it's an area where capitalism theory and socialist theory agree yet protecting house values has somehow become the entire focus of our economy. Even the term, the "tragedy of the commons" was a 1968 invention [3] and this still dominates discourse even though it was disproven with empircal evidence, work which garnered the 2009 Nobel Prize for Economics [4].

    So land accumulation is both capitalist and socialist so how did we get here? I guess the landowners. So when people defend the likes of Atherton doing this, it's not based on any ideology at all. Oh and the poster-children for rent-seeking still have to be the Resnicks [5].

    CEQA was a well-intentioned law. But as we've seen it's been effectively weaponized by the billionaires, the propaganda has been created NIMBYs and we now have an economy that most rewards land-hoarding with no economic output. And that's the real reason this happens and will keep happening.

    [1]: https://www.tiktok.com/@henryfudgeofficial/video/76460341810...

    [2]: https://henryfudgeofficial.substack.com/p/the-housing-theory...

    [3]: https://math.uchicago.edu/~shmuel/Modeling/Hardin,%20Tragedy...

    [4]: https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false...

    [5]: https://perfectunion.us/how-this-billionaire-couple-stole-ca...

  • george916aan hour ago
    [dead]
  • quantumwoke3 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • em-bee2 hours ago
      if we are going to complain about AI content then i suggest we also include some evidence to make the argument at least somewhat insightful. i'll start: pangram gives this a 100% score (without the sources section), on account of the em-dashes. remove those and the score drops to 49%. include the sources and the score drops to 36%.

      (edit, i misread the score: after removal of the em-dashes the result is 48% generated and 49% assisted, add the sources, then it is 33% generated, 36% assisted, and 30% human. i didn't check the original text including the sources. i ran out of free credits.)

      • chipotle_coyote2 hours ago
        Man, if only Anthropic hadn't invented the em dash in 2023, it wouldn't be so easy to use that as such a surefire way to distinguish AI writing!
        • em-bee2 hours ago
          that's the thing. em-dashes are such a low hanging fruit, that i fear that they soon will be gone. i mean if i am ever to post an AI generated text, removing them is the first thing i would do.

          (edit: turns out it doesn't help as much as i thought it would. see the edit above)

      • shitloadofbooks2 hours ago
        > Atherton didn't have to win. A CEQA lawsuit doesn't need a strong legal theory to do damage — it just needs to introduce enough risk that funders freeze and clocks keep running. The delay is the weapon.

        In my opinion, this construct is massively overused by LLMs and is extremely jarring to read. The pithy followup "The delay is the weapon." feels like Year 8 Debate Club and is very melodramatic and cringy, which LLMs do a LOT.

        There are other spots that stand out, but this is the point where I said to myself "oh this is the point where the author stopped "cowriting" and just pasted the LLM slop directly."

        • quantumwokea minute ago
          Exactly my experience. I don't even use em dashes as a signal these days, the sentence structure is enough.
    • refulgentis2 hours ago
      Note to future selfs? (-selves?)

      Around Opus 4.6 release it got good enough people tried laundering it all the time, and around 4.8 the group dynamics were such that it was worse to call it AI writing than launder it as your own.

      Regardless, there was still enough of a taboo around it that the way people would try to launder it began to often include an AI-generated "sources" table, which was also aggressively bad, but lord knows no one reads those. So it was just another sigil that misled.

  • shitloadofbooks2 hours ago
    What is the name for the literary device that LLMs use where it explains something and then follows with a "pithy" "gotcha" sentence?

    > > Atherton didn't have to win. A CEQA lawsuit doesn't need a strong legal theory to do damage — it just needs to introduce enough risk that funders freeze and clocks keep running. The delay is the weapon.

    In my opinion, this construct is massively overused by LLMs and is extremely jarring to read. The pithy followup "The delay is the weapon." feels like Year 8 Debate Club and is very melodramatic and cringy.

    It must be possible to steer the LLM away from this?

    • tarpittan hour ago
      I wouldn't find it so grating if I wasn't constantly reading it. Maybe 5 years ago I would have liked this writing pattern. Same for those diagrams they include.

      What it lacks is the effort it takes for a couple minutes to whittle down the writing to the essential parts and bring out the particular style of the author. Even before this wave of LLM stuff started, I knew that it's editing that makes good writing. LLMs are mostly a single-pass process. Maybe it would be improved by having a couple intermediary high-temp thinking stages. the time tradeoff is worth it if it's producing some blog or speech to be consumed by 100s or 1000s of people even if you are only improving the writing by, say, 5%.

      To be honest, I don't mind the diagrams when I'm the one prompting it. Other than the fact that it is a waste of tokens, and full of clickable dialogs that waste more of my tokens.

    • nine_k2 hours ago
      Now that LLMs can produce texts in any form, and of a considerable length, may we please stop bickering about the form, and concentrate on the content? Because otherwise we'd allow LLMs troll us: produce slop to mask where the content is lacking, and have us generate more words about the slop, ignoring the content further.
    • meindnoch2 hours ago
      Reframing.
  • rayiner3 hours ago
    Local governments are obsolete, a holdover from when you had to have a government entity over areas within a day’s horseback ride. States should disestablish these towns and counties and reorganize them as administrative subdivisions of the state that answer directly to the governor and state legislature.
    • gerdesj2 hours ago
      You might regret that opinion one day. Local govt is quite literally small govt that you can participate in with a chance of actually having a say. It's all very well having a mad man at the helm of the good ship USofA. You may love or hate him but you can be sure he does not give a shit about your neck of the woods.

      I gather that "Bumfuck XX" is the approved term for a region within XX state that is a bit out of the way and I heartily approve of that.

      If you live in Bumfuck AQ (for example) you might have local issues that you might think are better served with a local rather than state or federal approach.

      Some of your states are quite large. For example TX is nearly three times the land area of the UK which manages to cram three separate nations within its islands, one of which is minority shared with Ireland and the rest is even more complicated!

      If you are happy with big govt then all is fine. That is what you'll get if you try to remove the old ... glue. Those old sub divisions are communities ie groups of people who are effectively the civic or regional version of families.

      I suggest you strive to keep those webs of community together rather than try to tear them apart in the name of administrative efficiency or you will discover what bumfucked really means.

    • lostlogin2 hours ago
      While you’re at it, why not disestablish the state and have everything federal?

      There is value in local control - with some glaring exception.

      • rayiner2 hours ago
        States are sovereign entities and cannot be dissolved. Local governments are organs of the states and can be dissolved.

        Local control is desirable, the question is the proper granularity of local control in the modern era. The structure of places like the Bay Area with dozens of little towns that have veto power over everything is too granular. Planning should happen at the granularity of entire metro areas.

    • dnnddidiej3 hours ago
      That sounds too extreme. I like Australia where states (ok much less populated than US states!) have certain building powers esp. to build rail infra but local can manage planning rules pertaining to an area but within a state level framework.
      • rayiner2 hours ago
        I’m not saying we shouldn’t have any unit of planning beneath the state. I’m saying they shouldn’t be incorporated entities that have the power to sue and be sued in their own separate from the state.
      • jackvalentine2 hours ago
        I live in Australia and local governments are too small and cause idiotic delays to things. They’re always being taken to administrative tribunals and losing and the state government periodically has to suspend their planning powers to make progress happen.

        I liked the government structure of the ACT when I lived there with a territory government that also had all the local government responsibilities for bins etc.

    • jeffbee3 hours ago
      It would take like two minutes to cross Atherton on a horse.
      • perching_aix2 hours ago
        More like twelve minutes (unless you mean the short way across). But yeah, your point stands, lol.