191 pointsby eqrion6 hours ago17 comments
  • pjmlp3 hours ago
    > asm.js was Mozilla’s response to the question posed by NaCl and PNaCl: how can the web run code at native speeds?

    Had it been today, Chrome would have just pushed NaCl and PNaCl no matter what, and then everyone would complain why Safari and Firefox aren't keeping up with "Web" standards.

    • xyzzy_plugh3 hours ago
      I still maintain the notion we're in the wrong timeline, one where PNaCl died and instead of a worthy, timely successor we end up being boiled alive in a soup of Electron apps.

      I really thought, for a time, that we'd be doing everything in the browser. And in a way that's increasingly true, but it all just feels worse than ever. I like WASM and I want to like WASM but the rate of maturity within the ecosystem is incredibly abysmal.

      What's worse is that we should all be running our untrustworthy AI tools and their outputs in precisely such a sandbox, and companies are selling the reverse: hosted sandboxes, hosted JS-based VMs.

      I guess that was always the problem: there was never any money in a client-side sandbox.

      • alex7o2 hours ago
        I do understand why NaCL and PNaCL are undesirable and why wasm is much better, but as a student the NaCL ssh app had saved my computer science homeworks more than once, and this is something that still doesn't have an alternative although I rarely would need it nowadays.
      • hopppan hour ago
        Its like natural selection, maybe not the best traits win overall but one that is the most popular choice because everyone is a webdev.
      • tardedmeme2 hours ago
        What are the key differences between PNaCl and WASM?
        • flohofwoe2 hours ago
          There were 3 systems, all with interesting differences.

          The original NaCl was a 'validated subset' of native CPU machine code (e.g. actual x86 machine code with some instructions and instruction sequences disallowed which would allow to escape the sandbox).

          The next iteration was P(ortable)-NaCl which replaced the native machine code with a subset of LLVM bitcode, which was then compiled at load time. Unfortunately with this step NaCl lost most of its advantages. Startup time was atrocious because it was basically the second half of the LLVM compilation pipeline (from LLVM-IR to machine code). LLVM-IR also isn't actually great as CPU-agnostic bytecode.

          WASM was designed from the ground up as CPU agnostic bytecode that's also much easier and faster to validate.

          The only major advantage of PNaCl vs early WASM was that PNaCl supported shared-memory threading right from the start (this is still knee-capped in WASM because of the COOP/COEP response header requirement).

          ...apart from Emscripten => asm.js => WASM, and Google's NaCl/PNaCl there was also a system by Adobe (Flascc/Alchemy(?) I forgot all the names this went through) to compile C and C++ code into Adobe Flash bytecode.

          I have an ancient blogpost from 2012 which compares the three (and where I have been flabbergasted by how well Emscripten actually worked - and this was even before asm.js - the linked demo is unfortunately no longer up):

          https://floooh.github.io/2012/10/23/mea-culpa.html

          • Randomnoan hour ago
            > (Flascc/Alchemy(?) I forgot all the names this went through)

            Crossbridge was its third and most recent name.

            Pepper.js is another interesting project from around this time that didn't pan out.

            https://github.com/google/pepper.js/

            • Yorican hour ago
              Wasn't pepper the P in PNaCl?
              • Randomno35 minutes ago
                The P in PNaCl is Portable.

                Pepper was a pun on Native Client (since NaCl = salt). Pepper Plugin API (PPAPI) was Google's more secure version of NPAPI (Netscape Plugin API). Flash Player was essentially the only thing using NPAPI/PPAPI by the end of its life.

                • jcranmer12 minutes ago
                  The most common plugins were Flash, Silverlight, Adobe Reader, and the Java applet plugin, and I think all of those were in mildly common use when plugins were on their last legs.
          • bawolff2 hours ago
            > The only major advantage of PNaCl vs early WASM was that PNaCl supported shared-memory threading right from the start (this is still knee-capped in WASM because of the COOP/COEP response header requirement).

            Presumably that is because PNaCl predated spectre (?)

            • flohofwoe2 hours ago
              Indeed, NaCl and PNaCl would have been hit by Meltdown/Spectre at least as badly as SharedArrayBuffer.
    • bencedan hour ago
      You mean Chrome would have pushed it, Apple would have filibustered it by refusing to comment (via lack of investment in the WebKit team), and then gullible folks on the internet would defer to them.

      (I will note that Apple seems to have upped WebKit investment this decade since their regulatory problems started in earnest - so it's possible this would end differently today)

    • lmkg2 hours ago
      I mean that's still basically what they tried to do at the time. They were trying to get them through web standards committees and everything.

      IIRC a big reason it didn't end up working was because NaCl was such a "big" technology and asm.js such a "small" one that asm.js was able to reach production-ready first despite starting work several years later.

      • pjmlp2 hours ago
        The big difference was that they lacked the market share they enjoy nowadays, with their forks and Electron crap.
  • rudi-c3 hours ago
    That's sad but sensical. Fun fact, Figma originally started as a fully C++ codebase, and Asm.js was key in proving that it would be possible to run a design tool in the browser. The switch to WebAssembly didn't happen until after there were paying customers, and provided nice improvements to load time (Asm.js is still JS which the bundle size is bigger and requires the code to be parsed into an AST, unlike WASM).
    • 0x45726 minutes ago
      What's so sad about it? It was just a compilation target that made sense at one point in time. Its like being sad about i386-unknown-freebsd1 being dropped.
    • frumplestlatz8 minutes ago
      What’s sad about that is we could have had a clean, native, desktop Figma application.
  • futune3 hours ago
    So the death of asm.js is upon us? We are drifting away from the timeline of the prophecy:

    https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

    (And to those who haven't encountered this before, I strongly recommend a watch. It may be the greatest tech talk of all time, for certain values of greatest.)

    • muvlon3 hours ago
      With this technology's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
      • mikece2 hours ago
        Not really: ASM.js became WASM. What killed the possibility of WASM being The One Way to run everything is AI... the one wildcard that Gard Bernhardt didn't predict.
      • tadfisheran hour ago
        Yagrum Bagarn has something for you.
    • mikece2 hours ago
      I re-watch that presentation two or three times a year because it's a great example of how to give a presentation, how to structure your slide deck to complement your presentation, and a surprisingly educational tour of the permission rings architecture of operating systems.

      And at some point we're going to have a period or war and our psychological attachments to old programming paradigms will be released so that we can move on to a more advanced way of doing things (but that won't stop your bank from running YavaScript for at least another 85 years).

    • bvisness3 hours ago
      Don't worry, YavaScript will live forever.
      • egeozcanan hour ago
        In Germany, it's still not uncommon to hear Yava and YavaScript.
        • bonesssan hour ago
          I understand that Jawohl is still quite popular there, but JawohlScript adoption is sadly lagging.
      • mikece2 hours ago
        I still refer to it as YavaScript much to the confusion of junior devs. I just tell the new kids: "you had to be there..."
    • phoe-krk2 hours ago
      Just substitute asm.js with WASM and you're still on the right track.
    • ksec2 hours ago
      If we substituted war with COVID we aren't that far off as both happened in 2020. We still have to wait till 2035 to see if true.
  • ndesaulniers32 minutes ago
    A long time ago, I wrote a small chapter in a WebGL book on asm.js.

    https://webglinsights.github.io/

    It was fun to see the rise of asm.js, which was a precursor to Web Assembly. Some of the early demos were so cool to see; Unreal Engine running in the browser. :) Bitter sweet to see the sun set here, but it did lead to much better things.

  • metmac4 hours ago
    I’ll never forget watching Gary Bernhardt give his talk on JavaScript.[0] Was my introduction to asm.js, and the rabbithole associated with compiling code to run in the browser.

    12 years on, it’s shocking how much of his fiction became reality.

    [0] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

    • mikece2 hours ago
      And if not for the rise of AI it's possible that WASM as a machine-level compilation target for all languages might have happened. As much as Gary predicted he didn't see AI coming.
      • chamomealan hour ago
        wait how did AI impede wasm?
        • xscott34 minutes ago
          I believe the idea is that you don't care what language is being used if you aren't going to look at it anyway. Given that premise, the AI can write JavaScript instead of something you need to compile separately.
  • hollowturtle38 minutes ago
    Isn't Asm.js better just for the fact that I can call web apis directly without shims? Or moving data in and out? I'd love to commit totally to webassembly but still seems very limited, am I wrong?
    • 0x45714 minutes ago
      Depends on what do you mean about by web apis. Fetch API for example is not part of asm.js subset of JavaScript. You going to need a javascript shim on both cases. However, like the siblings comment says: overhead comes from conversion between big structures.
    • aabhay34 minutes ago
      Wasm can also call web apis directly. The overhead you hear about is in translating complex types like nested dicts etc between formats. But wasm runs inside the js runtime
  • drob5184 hours ago
    Asm.js is dead! Long live WebAssembly!
    • ivanjermakov2 hours ago
      To be fair, I thought asm.js was deprecated a few years ago with emergence of wasm.
    • 3 hours ago
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  • sehugg3 hours ago
    Hmmm, need a asm.js -> WASM transpiler maybe.

    (compiling legacy code with legacy versions of Emscripten is quite frustrating, almost as bad as updating your JS code to be compatible with accumulated changes in the Emscripten ABI)

    • eqrion3 hours ago
      Binaryen used to have an asm2wasm tool, but I believe it has been deprecated. I couldn't find any other equivalent. At least the asm.js code will keep working even with asm.js opts disabled, but it would be nice to have a translator.
  • looneysquash3 hours ago
    I personally think this is a mistake. But I'm not sure how much it matters. It's not like a lot of people were using asm.js still AFAIK.

    But wasm is too isolated from javascript. From my limited use of it, I was considering trying to compile to asmjs instead.

    But I wasn't sure that emscripten still fully supported it.

    You can't call most web apis from wasm.

    But more important for what i was trying to do, you can't zero copy buffers from js to wasm.

    Everything is a trade off. The isolation is a good thing, but also a bad thing.

    • eqrion3 hours ago
      > But wasm is too isolated from javascript. From my limited use of it, I was considering trying to compile to asmjs instead

      asmjs is going to be strictly more limited in interacting with JS than wasm. You're basically limited to simple number values and array buffers. Whereas wasm now a days has GC types and can hold onto JS value using externref.

      > But more important for what i was trying to do, you can't zero copy buffers from js to wasm

      I'm pretty sure you can't do that with asmjs either. There is a proposal for zero-copy buffers with wasm: https://github.com/WebAssembly/memory-control/blob/main/prop...

      • davidmurdoch3 hours ago
        This isn't a fair comparison. Wasm was severely limited when it was first implemented and it had the advantage of a decade of improvements. Asm.js has had zero improvements in that same time frame.

        Had WASM not been adopted we would have SIMD in JS ( probably via asm.js) by now. Because we didn't, JS just cannot compete with WASM in many computationally heavy workflows. We'd also have general purpose JS to Asm.js compilation, with few API restrictions, making writing it much easier.

        • flohofwoe3 hours ago
          > Asm.js has had zero improvements in that same time frame.

          WASM is that evolution of (strict mode) asm.js. The two really aren't all that different from what they can and can't do.

          • 2 hours ago
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      • looneysquashan hour ago
        Well, I haven't actually tried the asm.js approach for this, so maybe I'm missing something.

        But since asm.js is just (a subset of) javascript, I assumed I could just pass ArrayBuffers around.

        With wasm, I could pass a Uint8Array out of it. If I wanted to pass it in, I had to call malloc from the javascript side to allocate in the wasm heap. But since I already had an arraybuffer (from a file upload), that meant an extra copy.

      • stusmall2 hours ago
        Oh my God. That's so exciting. I did a prototype a while back for writing UDFs in WASM for a query engine. The fact that everything needed to be copied in and out of the environment killed it. Excited to try it again if/when this lands
    • flohofwoe3 hours ago
      IIRC Emscripten has removed asm.js support around 2020, and that was probably the most important toolchain that ever supported asm.js (maybe followed by Rust, don't know if they still support it though)

      > You can't call most web apis from wasm.

      You can't from strict asm.js either, since it only supports numbers (no JS strings or objects) and manages the C heap in an ArrayBuffer object just like WASM.

      > But more important for what i was trying to do, you can't zero copy buffers from js to wasm.

      Same problem as above, you need to call out into "real" Javascript from asm.js and you can't map other ArrayBuffers directly into the 'asm.js heap' either, a copy is needed. The "Javascript FFI" really isn't much different between asm.js and WASM.

    • chilmers3 hours ago
      Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't asm.js have the same restrictions? I.e. you can't call web APIs directly from asm.js code, you still need special handling for "foreign" functions.
      • Rohansi2 hours ago
        Depends how you want to look at it. On one side asm.js is just JavaScript with special JIT handling, so you should be able to mix them. On the other side you have C/C++/Rust/whatever compiled to asm.js which needs to go through hoops to call normal JavaScript code
        • pornel2 minutes ago
          You can't mix them. It won't pass validation, and will fail to be optimized as asm.js.

          In asm.js you have to treat JS functions and objects as special extern values, just like in WASM.

          asm.js - when validated and optimized - is closer to WASM serialized to a JS-like syntax than actual JS.

        • flohofwoe2 hours ago
          > so you should be able to mix them

          AFAIK as soon as you'd start mixing idiomatic JS and asm.js, you lose the "special sauce", you only got the special asm.js treatment in browsers when putting a "use asm" at the top of a source file, and that would prevent using regular JS features in the same file.

  • stkdump4 hours ago
    There goes my plan to use js code generation at runtime to make my algorithms faster. Doing this with wasm will be much harder.
    • eqrion3 hours ago
      Generating wasm code at runtime is pretty easy (I'd imagine easier than generating valid asm.js code). We have a little library for our tests that handles a lot of it: https://searchfox.org/firefox-main/source/js/src/jit-test/li...
    • flohofwoe3 hours ago
      Just try the asm.js subset and see how it performs for you, I remember that even without the special asm.js support in browsers Emscripten output performance was surprisingly good
      • cogman103 hours ago
        In fact, I think it was only firefox that made a special JIT route. Chrome moved optimizations into the regular JIT.
    • giancarlostoro4 hours ago
      There's still AssemblyScript? It might meet your requirements, unless I'm misunderstanding you or the features of it.

      https://www.assemblyscript.org/

    • titzer3 hours ago
      It will still work. asm.js is just regular JavaScript code, after all. It just won't parse/run as fast as custom pipeline for asm.js. My guess is that you will not notice much difference unless you have a really huge application.
    • koolala4 hours ago
      There are some WAT compilers that are small and fast for running in the browser.
  • koolala4 hours ago
    Never saw those monkey prints before

    https://monkeyink.com/ink/blog/archives/2016/08/_this_is_a_f...

    "The image is a collage of antique open source art reflecting the open source code."

    • dblohm72 hours ago
      The SpiderMonkey team always had t-shirts made up of these.
  • EdwardDiego3 hours ago
    We'll drink again in Valhalla (not the JDK project, the one with much carousing).
  • claytongulickan hour ago
    It would have been nice if they had mentioned Luke Wagner, who's idea it all was and who created the first implementation, as well as one of the main driving forces behind wasm.
  • unconed3 hours ago
    Asm.js was never needed as a legacy mechanism, as it was just a compilation target for native code. There was nothing that it needed to remain backwards compatible with, all asm.js code was new code.

    https://acko.net/blog/on-asmjs/

  • theultdev4 hours ago
    Sad day. I have a sha256 hasher in asm.js that's faster than any wasm solution.
    • bvisness3 hours ago
      In SpiderMonkey, asm.js code has been compiled by exactly the same pipeline as wasm since at least 2019. In fact, the way we compile it is literally to construct a pseudo-wasm module and run it through our wasm compiler (with a few flags to tweak the behavior to fit the asm.js semantics). In other words, if you're running asm.js in Firefox, you're literally just running wasm anyway, so how could it possibly be faster?

      Furthermore, if you use wasm, you'll have fewer bounds checks (because of better memory allocation strategies[1]), access to SIMD, bulk memory operations, and a host of other niceties that have been added to wasm over the years. If your asm.js code is outperforming someone else's wasm code, that probably just means their wasm code is worse.

      [1]: https://spidermonkey.dev/blog/2025/01/15/is-memory64-actuall...

    • theultdev39 minutes ago
      Made the requested benchmark:

      https://theultdev.github.io/web-sha256-benchmark

      https://github.com/TheUltDev/web-sha256-benchmark

      It's Chrome wasm (windows) that is slow for me, 2x slower than asmjs.

      FF with asmjs optimizations are 2x slower than wasm on FF.

      Wasm in FF is 2x faster than wasm in Chrome for this hashing solution (for me).

    • lukan4 hours ago
      That is surprising. Do you know the reasons? Is it a special use case or was asm really faster? I find that hard to believe.
      • theultdev4 hours ago
        It's a custom solution, but nothing special just incremental hashing for large files.

        I took off the shelf wasm crypto libraries to compare it, but the leading one was 10x slower.

    • dist-epoch2 hours ago
      • wren69912 hours ago
        Requires a secure origin. If you serve a local (but non-localhost) SPA over HTTP then you're blocked from using crypto.subtle.digest. At least, that is one reason I have seen a hand-rolled SHA-256 deployed.

        Edit: oh, and it forces async.

      • theultdevan hour ago
        no incremental hashing, so you can't hash files too large for ram.

        I do use it for smaller files though, it's much faster.

  • css_apologist4 hours ago
    o7
  • oneshtein3 hours ago
    asm.js is faster than WASM, and it can do everything that JS can do.
    • flohofwoe2 hours ago
      Congratulations, two spectacularly wrong 'facts' in one short sentence is quite an achievement ;)

      It's true that in the beginning (around 2017), WASM wasn't much faster than asm.js, but meanwhile WASM has seen real performance improvements.

      Featurewise, asm.js is much closer to WASM than to regular JS, it definitely cannot do everything that regular JS can do (mainly because asm.js is limited to the Number type, it cannot deal with JS strings or objects).

    • mbrock3 hours ago
      Faster in what browser, by what measure, for what modules? "X is faster than Y" without any concretization is usually meaningless.
    • cogman103 hours ago
      Faster? I'm not sure about that. Maybe if you are doing a lot of talk between the compiled and JS runtime/DOM. But otherwise WASM has been much further developed in both Firefox and Chrome.

      I don't think Chrome ever did an asm.js specific optimization.

    • chilmers3 hours ago
      How can a subset of JS do "everything" that JS can do?
      • bogdan3 hours ago
        All you need is a lambda
    • ramon1563 hours ago
      WASM wont improve if no one adopts it. Its a chicken and egg issue
      • flohofwoe2 hours ago
        WASM has been adopted and it has improved massively since 2017 though.
        • pjmlp7 minutes ago
          Yes, but GC is still useless for languages with interior pointers, some features require gimmicks with server configuration, and for most languages we aren't any way closer to -march=wasm and that's all.

          We still need to download half Internet for emscripten, plus whatever tools are being used on top. Although it is somewhat simpler for those that build on top of binaren.