97 pointsby andsoitis5 hours ago9 comments
  • jl6an hour ago
    There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees with you. It’s the self-torpedoing recipe that makes the omnicause so impotent.
    • stackghostan hour ago
      Consider that the venn diagram of "people likely to be negatively impacted by climate change" and "people who belong to historically marginized or discriminated groups" has a lot of overlap. It's little wonder to me why permacomputing, having its roots in environmentalism, attracts people who spend a lot of time and energy on social justice causes.

      But still: It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.

      • tolerance14 minutes ago
        I think the issue being highlighted here is how polarizing causes are advanced and detract from a reasonable one that is supposed to be the pith of an organization.

        > It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecological aspects and not enjoy some other aspect.

        I don't object to this in the most general sense. But I also think that a little tact can go a long way from the organization's side to anticipate where the public can't exercise it on their own.

      • jl65 minutes ago
        Taking some parts and leaving others is exactly how intersectionalism should work: at an individual level. You throw your lot in with the orgs and movements you like, and leave or oppose the ones you don’t. The intersection is within you.

        Unfortunately the fashion is now for orgs and movements to declare their own intersections, which does nothing to further the core issues, while actively repelling those outside the intersection (which, by the time you’ve intersected a bunch of different things, is nearly everyone).

        There is nothing inherently “post-Marxist” or “decolonial” about the core ideas here (scare quotes because these are extra-unhelpfully underdefined terms). Framing the project this way just signals that non-post-Marxists (etc.) will not be welcome, which makes it quite hard to enjoy the good bits for people who have been pre-declared to be the enemy.

        Successful orgs are laser-focused on their core purpose.

      • zozbot23414 minutes ago
        There's strong first-principles reasons to think that left-wing radical politics does a significant disservice to historically marginalized or discriminated groups. Historically the proper and most effective response to maginalization and discrimination was developing strong, enduring social ties (arguably, these social ties are what defines a "group" to begin with, especially on very long-run, even generational timescales), which in practice is now coded as a "right wing" value.
    • knuppar38 minutes ago
      This sounds like a fence sitter take. Everything is political and not acknowledging that is part of the problem.
  • louismerlin3 hours ago
    I have been involved in Berlin’s permacomputing scene for a few years now, and have met a lot of very cool people through that. Can highly recommend you get involved in your local meetups or start your own !

    https://permacomputing.net/Community/

  • HerbManican hour ago
    I have argued for a long time that Permacomputing will be seen as the missing part of the Free Software movement. What use is free software long term if you do not have hardware you can control, maintain and repair easily? This will mean a sacrifice in performance and functionality but gaining control and longevity.

    With things like Secureboot, TPM modules and ever increasing demands to lock down systems, there is the risk that even libre software will be snuffed out. While not those technologies explicitly, similar less friendly things may come up in future. And when that happens, being beholden to billion dollar hardware companies won't seem so friendly. A little alarmist, but I didn't think we would be were we are today as it is.

    One interesting area is about how to make software that is not hardware locked but easy enough to implement with very little work involved.

    This is where projects such as UXN come in. https://100r.co/site/uxn.html

    A system spec that is only 32 instructions deep, something that a single person could implement in less than a week. Essentially the hardest part is building the hardware Abstraction Layer. It wouldn't be efficient but it is very portable and thus makes it resilient to any future possible shocks.

    • pfortuny36 minutes ago
      This project appears here from time to time and each and every time I am amazed. Thanks for sharing it.
  • ps3udoan hour ago
  • zelon8832 minutes ago
    I think an important step is to acknowledge when and where to implement technology in the first place.

    Arguably the environmental benefit of an American farm replacing a 10 year old tractor with an electric model isn't nearly as good for the environment as a farm in India replacing a 70 year old tractor that leaks gallons of oil per month with a 50 year old tractor that doesn't.

    Capitalists don't understand how to apply cost-to-benefit ratios to anything outside themselves. There is no global entity making sure resources are spent responsibly or equitably at scale.

  • shota_x40231 minutes ago
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  • shota_x402an hour ago
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  • aaron6954 hours ago
    [dead]
  • lynx972 hours ago
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    • HerbManican hour ago
      I get why you wouldn't see this as inviting.

      But we need to merge the humanities with technology because if both sides ignore the other than both sides will blindly walk into the worst out comes of the other side.

    • jochem92 hours ago
      One does not rule out the other. In the end it's nerds messing with hardware.

      Lots of computer culture is rooted in anarchism, anti-capitalism and a fight for fairness. E.g. early internet culture, the open source community.

      Imo it's very nice to see explicit anti-capitalist movements within tech, because the other side of tech is so completely over the top capitalist.

      • lynx97an hour ago
        anti-capitalism, while a bit strange a lable, is something I can sympathize with. But once we are talking anarchism and (intersectional) feminism in a computing context, I am definitely out. I miss the time when computing was a lot less political. It was nice hacking on projects without having to identify with something totally unrelated, or being forced to support idiologies just to be a part of it.
        • boudinan hour ago
          The web originally was way closer to anarchism and I really miss that. It was a cluster of self-organising communities, little to no intervention from the state, a lot was not profit driven. Same with IRC.
          • colechristensen16 minutes ago
            The web was invented at CERN and spread through universities and got taken up by nerds. It could not possibly have been more state sponsored.
            • boudin6 minutes ago
              And the Internet was state sponsored too, at the time though it was not even legal to create communication networks in a lot of countries. But that's the premises, it doesn't mean

              But what it gave birth to was a form of anarchy. One doesn't go against the other, the same way a political regime can change within a country.

        • tolerancean hour ago
          > I miss the time when computing was a lot less political.

          Whether such a time ever existed is debatable.

          Here's a test. Define the period that you're imagining. Then investigate this period as a point in the history of computing with its broader sociopolitical contexts.

          Somewhere in the midst of that milieu I reckon or the politics you're likely to be fond to mix with your tech projects.

          • colechristensen14 minutes ago
            Most "conservative" opinions are basically "I miss when I was young and wasn't aware of all of the stuff happening around me and want modern reality to be like my incorrect perception of how things were in my youth"
        • tenuousemphasisan hour ago
          If you at all understood any of those three things you would know that they are all closely related.
        • atoav39 minutes ago
          IMO it depends very much on how those positions are being forced on those attending. Since this is about permacomputing I suspect not all that much.

          In my experience these self-given-labels just express the views of some founding members and are often used to clarify who they do not want (capitalist, misogynist authoritarians) and who is welcome (left leaning people, women, people who know how to treat women, people who can respect flat hierarchies).

          I find it a bit edgy to self label an encouraging like that, instead of explaining the meat of it (we are anticapitalist, because..., we are feminist, so women are welcome, we are anarchist, so our organization is structured with a flat hierarchy). Since it is an anarchist space, that is anti-authoritarian you probably won't find much indoctrination.

      • tolerance2 hours ago
        > In the end it's nerds messing with hardware.

        Am I being lazy or does this imply that all (or true) nerds are anarchist anti-capitalist feminists.

        • t-32 hours ago
          No. Some $x do $y does not imply that all/most/many/true $x do $y. It implies that some $x do $y.
          • tolerancean hour ago
            Right. But "in the end" people who participate in "permacomputing" per the websites stated values represent a subset of nerds. I think the rebuttal we're commenting on oversimplifies this.
          • lynx97an hour ago
            Well, yes, but no. Hacker Community projects increasingly force political agendas on participants. It gets harder and harder to just do tech stuff without having to align with some cabal.
            • stackghostan hour ago
              Being apolitical just means your politics align with the status quo. Technology is inherently political in nature, because it affects society in material ways.
        • boomlindean hour ago
          Yes, you're being lazy
    • antics92 hours ago
      On what page did you find that?